We are on the brink

[WhyUs]

SJ,

H pointing out the food thing seems a bit strange. This is the second time he has done something like this. Just curious, does he often show compulsive behavior.

Many times when a person has compulsive tendencies and they are not aware of it they become rude or demeaning. Sometimes they become upset because they feel you are intentionally being careless. This can be misinterpreted as controlling or just being an a-hole all the time.

I know this because I have compulsive tendencies myself. Can you think of other things that seem minor yet he gets angry or irritated about it.

[Avanti]

You are making great progress SJ, some of the things you did today are right on the mark.

I'd hate to think you are being pushed by us, more firmly but gently guided in the right direction. :-)

When you've read the chapter about goal setting you may understand more of what we are saying so let's wait to see how you see them when you've had time to reflect on the MWD text.

Your husband trying to control you in that way is not acceptable and I think you need to set some boundaries for him, one being not to talk to you like that at any time let alone in front of the children. Boundary setting is not covered in any depth in the DR book (someone correct me if I am wrong) but there is plenty on the net about it. You did however deal with the situation well today, the next step is to stop it happening again and being confident about what to do if it does and that's where boundaries come in.

Just curious...you said you were marking papers, what subject do you teach and what level?

[WhyUs]

I just thought of an example. For some reason my WW would always decide to wash the sheets and then forget to put them in the dryer. When we went to bed at night she would say "oh no, I forgot to dry the sheets." Honestly this happened about 20 times. That is not an exaggeration. I would get irritated almost every time. I eventually became rude and demeaning about it.

WW was not intentionally trying to irritate me or be careless. It was just one of those things that she did. She had a lot on her plate and drying the sheets on time seemed minor compared to the other things she had to do.

[WhyUs]

Beagley,

I agree that boundaries need to be set and that he should not speak to her in that way. However, I feel it is important to understand why he is acting that way. This will allow Jenny to approach the matter in a way that will be successful. H may be very sensitive to the wrong approach which could backfire.

Just a thought.

[Azzork]

As B said, this is a good framework. But how will you know if you succeeded. What will you look for on Sept 30 to know if you accomplished these? What actual behaviors will you DO?

I'm not sure I understand. I think these goals are specific, actual behaviours - about giving complements and appreciation, about keeping a cheerful disposition, etc. I guess I will know if I have done them, because I'll have done them. I'm sorry, there's obviously something I'm missing.

Your goals:

be warm, kind and cheerful - what are you going to do exactly - smile? greetings? eye contact? try to be as specific as you can.
show appreciation verbally - add a measurable. Once a day as a target?
no pursuing for physical affection or time spent together - good. Can you try to be a little more clear on this about how? I found for a while that I was pursuing without really knowing or being aware. What things will you not say?
cheerful and accepting if he initiates affection or time spent together - OK.

Just try to be as clear as you can. Goals should be SMART:
Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Relevant
Time-based

You want to be sure that you can measure if they were or were not achieved. How do you measure if you "were warm" to him for the month? Is that giving a smile when you pass him? saying good morning? walking around naked? I dont know - so be specific!

[SpinningJenny]

H pointing out the food thing seems a bit strange. This is the second time he has done something like this. Just curious, does he often show compulsive behavior.

Many times when a person has compulsive tendencies and they are not aware of it they become rude or demeaning. Sometimes they become upset because they feel you are intentionally being careless. This can be misinterpreted as controlling or just being an a-hole all the time.

It is kind of normal for him. He gets annoyed and upset (by which I mean he grumbles and complains and then sulks and withdraws - he's very rarely explosive in his anger and I never feel in danger from him) by a variety of minor things - shoes being left untidy at the door, if I use a fresh mug for tea and don't wash and re-use the old one, if I don't get all the hair out of the bathroom plughole.

I do genuinely forget some of his preferences - he likes one of the downstairs doors left open at night, the other open - so the cats can move about the house but not get into the kitchen. He's probably told me a hundred times. And I still genuinely forget - but he seems to believe that I do it on purpose.

I think because a lot of his work is domestic and to do with the house he's clearly going to care more about it - or notice it more - than I would. I also think he believes that these minor domestic mistakes are acts of disrespect on my part. For me - well, I do try, but I am a human being and I resent being on edge and having to walk on eggshells in my own house. There's not much consultation either - his way of doing things is the only right way and because the silent treatment is pretty painful for me, it is often easy to just stick to the 'rules'.

Your husband trying to control you in that way is not acceptable and I think you need to set some boundaries for him, one being not to talk to you like that at any time let alone in front of the children. Boundary setting is not covered in any depth in the DR book (someone correct me if I am wrong) but there is plenty on the net about it. You did however deal with the situation well today, the next step is to stop it happening again and being confident about what to do if it does and that's where boundaries come in.

I've read a fair bit about boundaries and from what I understand - boundaries are in place to control me and not him. I can't stop him doing or saying anything. But I've thought a lot about my own personal boundaries. I have some 'rules' for myself.

I don't let people shout at me, call me names or otherwise verbally abuse me.
I don't allow people to talk to me sarcastically.

If these things happen, I end the conversation - leaving the room or the house if it comes to that.

I don't join in with passive aggressive games.
I don't allow myself to verbally abuse other people.

If I need cooling down time, or time alone, I take it - but I tell the other person what is happening so they don't feel walked out on or abandoned. I return to the conversation when I am able to act like an adult.

I ask for what I want clearly and calmly and I accept no for an answer gracefully.

This is what I have so far - they came from the work I did in IC last year and in my recovery from PTSD. They've served me well so far but can always be added to.

I teach English Language at graduate level.

Anyway - thanks for this. LOADS of food for thought.

[Azzork]

For a start these are ok too. But I think they may be a couple steps ahead of where you are now. If I told you that you would R, what would be the FIRST few things you'd look for

The very first things?

Being spoken to with politeness and respect, and some warmth.
Being asked questions about my day, my work, etc.
Him volunteering information about his day, etc.


This feels like a science experiment in some ways. Stepping right back from him, not pursuing him at all - and watching to see how he responds to small changes in my behaviour. I don't feel like I'm manipulating him - I am only doing things that I want to do, with no real expectation of any change on his part - but I do feel like I'm getting more information.

If you think those are the very first things, then thats great. Im not sure where you are in your relationship. I might add something like sharing a laugh about something, having him smile at you, offering to do anything together....Im not sure.

It really IS a science experiment! And when you think of it in those logical terms, it starts to click. If you can take your emotions out of it for a little while, and think of it like an experiment, you can figure out what actually works. Thats how scientists operate! Thats not manipulating...thats learning.

[SpinningJenny]

I've just had another thought.

I know I have allowed myself to be controlled by his silence and withdrawing. It is hugely painful and upsetting to me when he walks through a room without speaking to me, refuses to make eye-contact for days at a time, when he sleeps elsewhere for long periods. He knows full well how it makes me feel because I have cried, begged, pleaded, threatened, etc.

I am better in this area - though I still catch myself doing or not doing things so he won't start ignoring me.

I need to think more about a boundary for myself in this area. To try to be less dependent on his affection and jumping through hoops to get it. I want to show him the respect he deserves - I want to be warm and kind and friendly. But I can't go back to being some kind of performing pet constantly apologising for my own shadow just so he'll deign to share a bed with me.

I can't force him to treat me like an adult, but I can certainly make myself act like one.

[Azzork]

I do genuinely forget some of his preferences - he likes one of the downstairs doors left open at night, the other open - so the cats can move about the house but not get into the kitchen. He's probably told me a hundred times. And I still genuinely forget - but he seems to believe that I do it on purpose.

Is there maybe a nice way that you can help remind yourself? Maybe some sticky notes on cute paper or something taped up in certain places. That way he can see that you are listening and taking him seriously?

[SpinningJenny]

Yes. I can totally do that. In fact, I am going to put a reminder on my phone right now of things to check before bed. It gets on my nerves when he nags me about it - but if the phone is nagging me I can be pissed off at the phone and not him!!

be warm, kind and cheerful - what are you going to do exactly - smile? greetings? eye contact? try to be as specific as you can.
show appreciation verbally - add a measurable. Once a day as a target?
no pursuing for physical affection or time spent together - good. Can you try to be a little more clear on this about how? I found for a while that I was pursuing without really knowing or being aware. What things will you not say?
cheerful and accepting if he initiates affection or time spent together - OK.

Okay. This makes sense to me. So - more specific goals.

I will say good morning, ask him if he slept well. I will greet him when coming into the house and say goodbye when I am leaving. I will ask him if there's things he needs when I go out. I'll smile and make eye contact while these things happen.

I will appreciate something he does for me and our family two times per day (very easy thing for me to do - because he does a lot. I do generally thank him for cooking, etc, but I could do it more lavishly. Instead of 'thanks for tea,' I can say, 'I really appreciate you cooking for us all especially after you've been on your feet painting the house all day.' That kind of thing.

Not pursuing. Well - I was in the habit of saying, 'what are your plans for today?' or 'what do you want to do tonight?' which he knew full well was a coded way of me saying, 'please spend time with me. Please tell me you want to do something with me tonight.' So I have stopped doing that entirely. I will not initiate conversations with him if he's wearing his headphones or playing his computer games. I will not interrupt him when he's playing his guitar. I won't ask him to do things for me that I can really easily to myself (like petrol in the car. I don't need him to put petrol in my car - I just wanted him to do something nice to take care of me.)

I think I am getting the hang of this...