Let's All Be Like Coffee

[Elly4]

Hi BT. How are you today? I hope it went better for you. I know I'm struggling with DBing right now too. All we can do is climb on the horse and try again. You are getting stronger and better every day! It's just hard to see it when you are living in the sitch.

***hugs***
E

[V2pt0]

It sounds like you still think you can reach him with rational words and logic, or appeal to his empathy. And when that didn't work (which it won't as long as A is active, I believe), you got frustrated and angry. And you were trying to get him to agree that his behavior forced your hand, which is obviously not going to happen - you're not going to get his agreement or approval...

So better to leave him alone. These thoughts could perhaps be expressed in a letter at some point, so no argument could arise from it and he could think about it without feeling defensive. But he is in a total, irrational fog of denial.

I understand the hurt. I truly do. I think this went south the moment you asked him to sit down and talk, though, not later in the conversation. You wanted to talk, I don't think he did. Be cheerful, brief and busy. If he comes again, maybe have someone else there? I wouldn't leave him alone since he has a history of taking mutual stuff.

Yes, this is all spot on. I don't tknow what I was thinking. Sigh...

[V2pt0]

Oh, and BT- see my post on Matt777's last thread. I love everything you said about anger being hurt transformed into an easier to deal with emotion...but I don't think personality disorders are bad for relationships.

Ok, so let me restate. I believe personality disorders are bad for relationships if treatment is not sought and issues are not managed properly. There are two challenges with this I see right off the bat. 1) You have to be willing to accept that you have a personality disorder and be willing to make changes, and 2) societies views on mental health are not predisposed to people doing the former. There is still too much stigma around mental health in this country. I don't even think most people really know that PDs are. I only just started reading up on them and it still seems scary to think I might fall within one of the clusters. What does that mean? Am I broken? Can I be fixed? I was talking to a friend on Sunday who has to pay for all couseling services for her M out of pocket. Not covered. At all. Even if someone knew they had a personality disorder, the chances of them sharing that with a potential partner I believe would be very low.

I just don't see how you can have a successful relation otherwise. An example would be narcissism and selfishness. You cannot have a successful marriage if one partner is unable or willing to be selfless. Could you just accept a partner who was selfish all of the time? I believe a healthy M is often about putting you often putting your self interests aside for what is best for the M/we. Another example would be if you are an avoidant personality who does not fully open up to your spouse for fear of rejection. Without that you are creating a marriage with limited emotional connection. Could you stay married to someone who never really let you know who they are? People with personality disorders have to be open to change and working on their issues. if this is the case, then yes, PDs are not bad for Rs. The two examples I shared could easily be me and my H.

Someday I hope to find a woman with her own personality disorder. Once we are M we form a PARTNERSHIP with COMBINED personality disorders. Instead of excusing our problems and condemning our partners, we form a broken team. We honestly communicate what those issues are, put each other's emotions as important as our own, and strive to work together to find a way that both people feel safe, valued, and loved. At least most of the time.

I am confident that some day you will find that woman!!

I haven't fixed my personality disorders. But I have learned how to manage it a bit, and how to communicate it to a potential partner. Now the question will be whether I can find a woman someday with the same viewpoint. Good thing I'm still in grieving so I don't have to wrestle that alligator at the moment!

[V2pt0]

E, doing much better today! Thanks for asking. Has a lot to do with fun GAL over the past few days. Laughter is so healing for the soul. Also, realizing I have to let go of emotions and resentment during D process otherwise I will undo DB and be an angry and bitter woman. I hate bitter coffee!! If I have to give away more money to H than I like, so be it. It is what it is and I cannot change the laws. Plus, the more he senses it bugs me, the more he will dig in. I will just have to go out and make more. After D of course.

Zephyr, thank you for highlighting some positives from my interaction. It has always been easy for me to focus on what I do wrong. Really, sticking to my boundry was a feat and I am proud of that. Glad you found the videos useful.

Question, has anyone heard of discernment counseling or know of anyone who did this? Just curious of outcomes. Also, I have been looking for counselor that will work with H and I both through divorce process. Since we don't have kids, I have not had any luck finding someone who will work with us. Does that seem strange? Not that my H would likely go.

[Zues126]

I agree completely BT. Yeah, for me to say PD's aren't bad for relationships wasn't well stated. I think we're on the same page on this one.

By the way, I appreciate the positive comment. You know, one of my biggest needs is just to be ok. Be good enough. Do it right. I try hard all day, every day. When I get a genuine compliment it puts wind in my sails.

Meanwhile I've been getting text messages from STBX, they are just fatiguing. This is not an exaggeration- in the last year if you totaled the sum of all of her communication with me in text/email it is entirely negative and critical. Nothing over the top, but if you read what she writes you can tell the tone is consistently expressing things like "sigh, I have to deal with this guy", or "eyeroll, make sure to get this right", or "I don't want to talk to you but someone has to tell you how to parent", etc, etc.

I love games, but when there's a game and no matter what you do you can't win, at some point you have to stop playing. Particularly when losing comes with a sting. There was nothing I wanted to do more in the world then love and honor STBX as my wife for the rest of our lives. Obviously I failed to do that in the ways she needed, and obviously I didn't leave her despite our problems. The point is this woman has criticized me to a point that I have had to mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and physically close her off from me in every way to protect myself. When I get these texts now I just shake my head and thank the stars above I don't have to live with that.

Without the confidence that I can earn people's acceptance, I can't feel safe or be emotionally vulnerable with them, and I have to close them off and demote their words so they don't hurt me. Meanwhile when someone shows that I can earn their approval, it makes me want to walk through walls to not let them down. Maybe that's a human thing, maybe it's a guy thing, maybe that's a me thing...or maybe all of the above but more so for me than for most (which is why I fight so hard to do a good job). I do think (many) guys are like puppies that just want to be 'good dogs'.

BT, I think you've done a great job finding ways to be positive more and more of the time, even at a time when finding something to be positive about can be like trying to find an Alligator in Minnesota. But no matter how bad your WAH is treating you, and walking out on the M is hard to top, when you can manage through the pain, keep quiet when there's nothing positive to say, and still find a way to say a few good words when there is something good to say (instead of withholding them because he doesn't deserve them until he does much more)...that is a big win for you. Your heart will feel lighter, and I think the men in your life will light up.

Yes, all of this bubbled out of me from one casual compliment.

In the meantime BT, I'd like to know more about what you're saying your PD is. Are you saying you're afraid of rejection and avoidant? How has this played out? What would you do differently or what are you trying to do differently?

[V2pt0]

Struggling in a big way today. Feeling so sad and depressed. I have not really felt like doing anything all week and am just empty inside. I am very conflicted about proceeding with D and contemplating calling L tomorrow to ask for delay. It is just not what I want, but feel /felt it was my only option with the [censored] A being brought repeatidly into my home. Why I still have any desire to be with my H is beyond me, but I do still love him. There is just so much unsettled in all of this. I keep going back to the fact that we never once really tried to fix our M and it makes me so upset. It does not help that our anniversary is exactly one month away.

I honestly don't think H is certain he wants D either, but the A is getting in the way. He just keeps saying the same thing. "I don't see how we can get past this, do you?" It is the question at the end that causes pause. I have not spoken with him since we last spoke on Monday. I sent him very business like email on Thursay about finances asking that we both stop making personal charges on joint checking and just leave it for mortgage. Of course he keeps making charges, but I opted to not say anything further.

H submitted his response/ paper work to my petition on Thursday. Want to call him and ask how it felt to file his portion. Did he cry, was he sick to his stomach, and did he feel immense heartache like I did when I filed?? To date I have seen virtually no emotion from him and I just don't understand.

I guess I have temporarily moved back to denial?? This (censored)!! Just not sure what I am doing and feel lost and alone.

[V2pt0]

Just a couple of questions. Since I have a business trip, H is going to be staying at house to stay with our dog tomorrow night. I made some homemade muffins as a thank you. Is that ok? Also, trying to decide if I make up bed in spare bedroom or let him deal with it. Thoughts? It seems like the right thing to do, but he has been so nasty and cold since I exposed A.

[Elly4]

My advice is that the muffins are fine. It's certainly something you would do for a friend. I'd leave the bed decision to him though. Too much emphasis he could put on either direction.

Wish we could go out for drinks.

Hang in there.

hugs
E

[V2pt0]

Thanks, E. I would love to host an in person DB happy hour for you and sommany others on here. Maybe we need to have a virtual one at a specified time later in the week. Drinks and posting!!

[JulieH]

(((Bt13))

Sorry you are going through this. My heart goes out to you. It is so natural to want to know that your spouse has remorse. That he has feelings similar to yours. That he is suffering as well. How could he not be on some level? Perhaps he cannot allow himself to feel that way now but at some point he will have to.
It's frusturating that he did not try to fix it with you, but at least you will be able to look back knowing you did all you could do and have grown from this. Be the best person you could be and the rest will all fall in place (that's what I'm trying to put into effect on my good days
I wish I could offer more advise, but everything seems to be counterintuitive and I am still learning.