I'm going to refrain from any physical affection unless she pursues / initiates it.
one Warning here. IF and I say IF there is someone else, you need to protect yourself. I mean physically and emotionally.
If your wife is messing around, then physical protection is paramount. The other side...I attach a significant meaning to sexual relations. honestly I do. It is the reason we never had sex for the first couple of years of our dating..
To me, I attach significance to making love...as Sandi has pointed out though, for the WW...it is just sex. You need to be able to not take meaning from this, protecting yourself emotionally.
This is just my take on it, others may have reasons to say ... just do it.
Zephyr that's a really good point and something I had not thought about prior to your post. I will have to give that some serious consideration. Thanks so much for the insight!
Thanks Cadet! I re-read the distancer/pursuer thread from the homework. For the first half of our relationships, I was definitely the distanced and W was the pursuer. Then we broke up, went our separate ways for 2 years, and I became the pursuer. I pursued her successfully, and married 2yrs later.
After M all seemed well for about 2yrs until we started having kids. Of course things are more hectic during those times and we both neglected our relationship. I think this brought back some of her memories of the time she was Pursuer and I was Distancer, and W believed that was again becoming the case, desiring more emotional closeness; a deeper connection emotionally.
My reaction was to Pursue! and I have been Pursuing ever since (6yrs now), and W has slowly become more and more of a Distancer.
After our MC sessions I described in earlier posts, I took the Pursuit up to a new higher level, which is what she verbalized she wanted and what the therapist recommended I try.
It's strange how it seems W requested pursuit, however the result of my pursuit was her becoming more of a distancer -- a paradox.
The last 12 months have been me Pursuing 100% and W distancing herself (while asking for more pursuit from me!). SO - from what I've learned is that I need to stop pursuing.
This week I have completely stopped pursuing, and have been outwardly cheerful. W seems to have taken notice to this and I can tell she is more melancholy/sad/disappointed when I'm around which may be due to the fact I have stopped pursuing, stopped greeting her w/ hugs/kisses, stopped saying ILY, etc., and my outward appearance to W is that I am totally fine with that.
It almost seems as though W is trying to bait me in to ask her what is wrong and launch a conversation about our R, which I haven't given in to. She may just be thinking that her fears ARE founded, and that I've suddenly given up interest in 'tending' to her emotional needs and pursuing her. And possibly asking herself 'what if' this M is over and she needs to move on?
From what I've read, this seems the possible first step in W realizing that I'm really a good and loving H and once reality sets in of the bleaker alternative, it may cause her to begin to Pursue. We shall see. I know if I begin to see signs of her pursuit (and I hope I will, eventually), that I will just react by opening the door slightly and not dive right back into the dance.
I'm concerned about my upcoming MC session on Monday. I know the therapist is going to ask me to describe in front of W how I am feeling, and obviously I cannot disclose I'm using a DB technique b/c i feel horrible that I'm a LBS with a WAW. Does anyone have any experience with MC sessions whilst trying to distance or lovingly detach? How do I still keep the DB behavior going, while also relaying I'm genuinely interested in working on the M?
I'm concerned about my upcoming MC session on Monday. I know the therapist is going to ask me to describe in front of W how I am feeling, and obviously I cannot disclose I'm using a DB technique b/c i feel horrible that I'm a LBS with a WAW. Does anyone have any experience with MC sessions whilst trying to distance or lovingly detach? How do I still keep the DB behavior going, while also relaying I'm genuinely interested in working on the M?
I'm felling a lot clearer on this now! One more thing....PHYSICAL AFFECTION.... I normally give her a hug and kiss when I leave/get home from work, kiss goodnight, and playful stuff (butt smack) periodically, hold hands/touch hands or feet in bed, and 'make a move' a couple times a week (historically gets positive response about 75% of the time, leading to sex).
Forget it! Would you want someone you didn't love pressuring you for physical affection? Well, that's how the usual WW feels toward the LBH. Unless she is very sexually high drive and not in a physical affair with OM, then she might consent to sex sometimes. My question to you is why would you want to give her affection, knowing how she feels toward you?
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Since the conversation last Saturday, I've not initiated ANY physical contact whatsoever - I've basically 'gone dark' on the physical front (which is a 180 for me - testing it out). SHE gave me a butt smack on Sunday, but I didn't acknowledge it.
Good! That's the way to do it. I have another question for you. If you decide to go with not knowing if she's in an A.....will you continue on with this 180, or wait until you can't hold out any longer for sex and then cave to initiate? Hummmmmm...... I guess time will tell? I hope you won't take chances by having sex with anyone when you don't know if she's had sex with another man. Know what I mean? Better to protect yourself than get a STD.
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Kind of feel ridiculous asking this question but it's a real blurry area for me.
No, it's not ridiculous at all. It often takes an outsider to be able to see your stitch more rationally, b/c you are too are emotionally involved. Plus, that's how you learn.....ask to make sure. :)
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After our MC sessions I described in earlier posts, I took the Pursuit up to a new higher level, which is what she verbalized she wanted and what the therapist recommended I try.
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It's strange how it seems W requested pursuit, however the result of my pursuit was her becoming more of a distancer -- a paradox.
Once the WW feels "done" with the MR, she often gives past complaints about her H, even if he has made strides to correct his part. It is strange and illogical for a woman who is emotionally D, to attend MC and give excuses that she needs her H to pursue her.......when in reality, it is NOT what she desires at all. Many, many WW will go to a few sessions of MC for outward show that she did everything to save the M. MC, in my opinion, is not very successful until the WW has a change of heart and desires to do what is necessary to save the M.
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It almost seems as though W is trying to bait me in to ask her what is wrong and launch a conversation about our R, which I haven't given in to
Oh yes! She will go to extremes to pull you into a R talk. By not taking the bait, it challenges her. It is not b/c her fears are founded that you have given up on the M. It is not b/c she really wants you to continue pursuing! A new LBH has no clue as to how she thinks or feels. I can tell you that it is usually opposite of what he thinks she may be feeling. You are still thinking of how the old W might feel or react to your 180. This WW gal isn't that old W. Your interpretation of seeing her sad, etc., is in reality, is her being sullen and pouting, just as a child will do. A WW can be very manipulative, so whenever the H doesn't fall into the step she designed, she will think of something else. But it won't be what you may be thinking it will be.
As far as the MC Monday, why are you going? If you have a DB coach, it could cause confusion for you. Has she actually asked if you are going? Have you called the MC's office to see if she really made an app't?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
If you decide to go with not knowing if she's in an A.....will you continue on with this 180, or wait until you can't hold out any longer for sex and then cave to initiate?
I plan to not investigate the possible A, and continue the 180. However, if she tries to initiate sex, or asks why I've stopped all physical, what is the best way to respond?
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As far as the MC Monday, why are you going? If you have a DB coach, it could cause confusion for you. Has she actually asked if you are going? Have you called the MC's office to see if she really made an app't?
She did make the appt. and I agreed to go, but didn't talk about it, just agreed. Why am I going? I'm hoping to see if better insight can be gained as she historically opens up mor in MC sessions. Are you suggesting I should consider canceling, and if so, why? Upside?
I'm concerned about my upcoming MC session on Monday. I know the therapist is going to ask me to describe in front of W how I am feeling, and obviously I cannot disclose I'm using a DB technique b/c i feel horrible that I'm a LBS with a WAW. Does anyone have any experience with MC sessions whilst trying to distance or lovingly detach? How do I still keep the DB behavior going, while also relaying I'm genuinely interested in working on the M?
If it were me, I would stay as quiet as possible, in hopes the C would direct questions to the W. If the C directed the question to you, first, maybe reply by saying you need to hear your W's answer before you can respond. You can always give vague answers, such as, "I'm not sure how I feel about anything at the moment".
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I plan to not investigate the possible A, and continue the 180. However, if she tries to initiate sex, or asks why I've stopped all physical, what is the best way to respond?
At one point you said you plan to refrain, unless she initiated. If so, then why questions on how to answer her if she initiates?
I can think of things I would probably say. Such as, "If I wanted to have sex with someone who claims they aren't in love with me........I'd just find a prostitute". But I'd advise you not to say anything that tacky. How about one of these, "Considering the state of our MR, having sex just seems a little less desirable right now". "I have not been in the mood, considering everything". "I have not had any motivation". "Are you serious"! "Thanks, but I'll pass".
As you can tell, this is not my area of talent. Maybe someone else can offer better answers.
I am not clear about your plan of action, except to continue 180 with physical affection. How long do you think you can hold out? Do you plan to wait it out? Is there anything she could do that would be a deal breaker for you?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
How do I still keep the DB behavior going, while also relaying I'm genuinely interested in working on the M?
Why do you feel you must convey the message that you want to work on the M? She already knows you want to work on it.
She has dropped the bomb, saying she wasn't in love with you, but you are giving her a life good enough that she isn't ready to leave. She pulls away, while you pursue. How can you turn this around and cause her to pursue you? Is it by assuring her how much you want to work at saving the M? What you want is not the problem. The issue is not about you.
Your MC may be very good, but most C's get you to open up and do the talking, right? DB suggests you create some mystery about your feelings, your actions, etc. DB tells us not to talk about the relationship, if the spouse is not interested in saving the M. It suggests you step back and give her space while you detach and GAL. Somehow, I just don't think the MC is going to tell you this in front of your W. The C's job is to continue asking questions to prompt the couple to talk about their complaints and feelings.....which usually leads to more friction......especially if one is a WW/WAW.
That's just my take on it, FWIW.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I am not clear about your plan of action, except to continue 180 with physical affection. How long do you think you can hold out? Do you plan to wait it out?
My current plan of action is to continue 180 with physical affection (i.e. not attempting any). I believe I can hold out/wait it out as long as necessary. The DR book teaches that you don't want your WAW to feel pressure to be physical. I think I'm unclear and still seeking advice on how to respond if/when she decides to initiate physical intimacy. My interpretation of the way DR approaches the concept, is to accept it without showing that you're doing cartwheels/over-excited, and not reading too much into it (providing you can emotionally handle that, as a prior responder stated). Am I misinterpreting or missing anything critical here? Since I'm not sure if she's in an A, I am going to just put that notion on the back burner for now - again this is the technique recommended in DR.
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Why do you feel you must convey the message that you want to work on the M? She already knows you want to work on it.
Good Point. I guess since I have been acting more detached, she has noticed and it appears to upset her. This is another area I'm confused. If she's upset (i.e. crying and asking me to talk about R) after a night out with friends during which I was friendly and upbeat, but detached and 180 opposite of my usual level of attentiveness, is this to be interpreted as positive or negative result?
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She has dropped the bomb, saying she wasn't in love with you, but you are giving her a life good enough that she isn't ready to leave. She pulls away, while you pursue. How can you turn this around and cause her to pursue you?
Boy that is the $1M question! I wish I knew the answer. I'm taking from DR that I will have to employ step 5 'Experiment & Monitor Results'. Right now my experiment is to 180 physical, work on myself, and I am also taking an initiative to take more interest in some of her interests, without showing it's for her benefit. For example, she loves Yoga. I've been hitting the gym regularly as a part of my personal self improvement strategy (in line w DR concepts). I decided to sign up for an introductory yoga class. When I mentioned I was taking that class (came up in scheduling conversation) she was totally surprised!! asked me why I didn't talk to her about doing yoga. I said it was something I wanted to try for myself - thought it would have some good benefits to complement my weight & cardio training. She totally lit up and invited me to do Yoga with her either at home together, or take a class together. I nonchalantly replied, well I'm going to try out this studio and I'll let you know if I enjoy it. and left it at that.
In summary, zero physical + detachment + GAL (incorporating exploration of mutual interests) are my current 3 'experiments' which I will monitor results. So far, after 1 week, the detachment seems to be creating more negative results, still can't tell any results re; physical, + or -, and the GAL seems to be working to intrigue her.
Have the MC today as well as a DB coaching session. Will provide an update later. Thanks all for any responses / advice !
