The W told her story ... could have very well been me up there, so similar. Right down to her sharing her feelings of how she felt getting tested for STD's, in a way verbalizing some pain I have been feeling and could not put words to. Was a seriously intense session. How she came to terms with the A, all the hurt, the triggers after ... along with the H expressing all he then had to do for the h3ll he put her through, all the work it takes, and how backslides happen and what one can do.
Wow. I think that would have been a good talk to hear. How did she describe the feelings related to STD testing? I am going this week... I've put it off for a long time and am even questioning whether it is needed after all this time & no symptoms? Not sure if that is logical or me trying to find an excuse not to do it. Ugh. But if relations were in January & it is now August...
I think you're doing an amazing job at all this. I understand the feelings of questioning whether or not she can be the spouse you want & if it is the marriage you want. I think all the things that come up create these feelings as well as the trust issue. I've been having periods of this too. Thinking- wouldn't it be easier to start over new with someone who wouldn't put me through this? Someone I don't have these triggers with? But in the end, it wouldn't be easier... just different. And then there are the kids to consider as well.
I hope you guys have a great vacation & that your w does get to go. Our vacation really did wonders for us in regards to connecting w/o the stressors of life and for giving us a lot of time together to enjoy one another.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
Sounds like the sessions are helpful. Very happy to hear how other experiences can be helpful to you. I think you'll find that there will be more that is helpful as you keep steppin'
Yeah .. for me, just hearing this woman lay it out there. Not only was it what she said, how she so clearly descibed the pain and humiliation ... but the fact that this was 17 years ago and you could still hear the hurt ... made me sit and think, its one thing for someone to go through this .. then you add in the fact she did, managed to salvage her marriage .. but on top of that became involved and was brave enough to share her story in order to help people she never met .... the fact her WAH was sitting right there, having to relive this twice a year ... tough stuff and I respect them so much for what they are doing.
Originally Posted By: AJM
Sad as it is the path taken, if nothing else comes from this experience, it's good to know that after 25 years you can share with each other at a deep and intimate level.
And if you haven't noticed, that level of intimacy is the most priceless part. I know many people are surprised to find that sex or physical intimacy are far better (far far better) if shared with two very intimate people. Oddly, I recall my pre-marriage session with the pastor that married us. He said the same thing. I've known all along he was right, but haven't always known what it would it take to get that to the extent I've learned over the years.
That's the thing, we did have that.... for a long time then it just seemed to fade somehow, life and the things it brings took over and twisted the priorities all up. Now its getting over all that, plus not trying to relive the past 3-4 years.
Originally Posted By: AJM
Sex is easy. Casual relationships are easy. Deep, meaningful, intimate relationships like we all deep down crave? Those are priceless regardless how you get there.
It seems to me, an outsider of sorts, that you are learning skillz that you didn't have before. I think its normal to feel upside down and topsy-turvy while you re-tool. Enjoy the ride, amigo. You can see it's worth it now, can't you?
Enjoy the vacation!
AJ
Yeah .. the Re-Tooling is the 'strange' part ... along with how we are handling the day to day things that would create a fight .. which would lead to that vicious cycle of same old things. We have dipped a toe in that pool here or there, she will bring up a past issue and my goto response has seemed to work here with her, "We do not want to go back to the past, lets focus on what this is really about and stay in the present" ... this has worked in my case. Fighting Fair ... was not always something her and I were good at, she pulls a knife, I would pull a gun only to realize while I was doing that she switched to a bazooka ... result was total devastation and no one 'wins' .... realizing its not about 'winning' and more about understanding the other persons perspective has been a big breakthrough ... its not always easy ... but as I have said before .. its better now than this time last year.
And Cali, your wife wants to work for it. And she is. It's easy to walk away and stay away. And she is coming back and facing her demons to make your M work. And you could have started over too and you are putting in amazing work.
I know, whatever the outcome, you will have no regrets.
Yeah, she actually called me out on this Sunday, I said something to the effect of "If you want to work on this M.... " she jumped in and said "Cali I AM working on this M, there is no IF about it"
As far as the Demons ... I am not sure if she is truly facing them at the moment, seems like she has gone more the 'keep busy route' ... new job, upcomming trip, she is all over the camera stuff. I am just observing, understanding those boxes of demons are not something she is going to dive into full force ... she will deal with them in her way on her time table and I would suspect I am not going to be any the wiser while she is actually doing this. Her Circus .. her Monkeys ... I have my hands full with my own.
Cali...I want to comment on something you have mentioned a few times, about not trading in this experience, as it makes you see and appreciate things differently. Something like that...
Anyway, on my marathon walk this weekend, I was looking at the sky, the clouds, the cute homes I was walking by, saying good morning to people on their own walk and jogs, and just truly seeing all the beauty around me. I was never that way and I know it is a result of my own experience.
Pretty amazing how this changes us. And to think, if we can carry this into our R, like the new M you are creating with W, it could be pretty amazing and eye opening, the little things around us, how beautiful they are
M you hit on something that has been with me for the past few months. The CHANGE .... funny how 2 years ago I harldy can recognize the man I was ... and it all started with an effort to just get up and make my bed. I head someone just yesterday talk about this ... making your bed every morning, setting the tone on your day, as small and petty as it it .. just making the bed gives you a feeling of acomplishment, amazing how that small thing, that singular decision was the first in many steps to my transformation ... and with all journeys, its that first step that is crucial.
Anyways .. I wake up around 5 every morning, take the dog out for a walk. He is old, now blind .. but still my puppy ... walking I see other similar people walking thier dogs or their spouses and its strange, something inside of me must have changed because everyone says "Good Morning" ... even if I do not say it first. This never happened to me before .. its like you said .. the trees are greener, the grass smeels fresh, even the people are much nicer ... for the first time that I can recall I love my job, I have an amazing son who makes me laugh, I look forward to church every Sunday .. even desire to become more active during the week there. I have my GALS still going ... notice nothing about W or the M in there? Its because I am comfortable in my own skin for the first time in my life it seems. Regardless of what happens with my M, ... yeah .. this journey while I would never wish it on anyone else .. I also understand I would not have made the really tough changes required of me without all the pain.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger could not be more true in my sitch .... I know deep down I ... yes I will be ok.
Wow. I think that would have been a good talk to hear. How did she describe the feelings related to STD testing? I am going this week... I've put it off for a long time and am even questioning whether it is needed after all this time & no symptoms? Not sure if that is logical or me trying to find an excuse not to do it. Ugh. But if relations were in January & it is now August...
Her sitch, she discovered the A, and her WAH did what we have read here over and over .. Lied/denied and took it even more under ground. They did MC and it never helped (With OW still there go figure) Then they did Retrouvaille ... about 2 months after the weekend during a post session she discovered the A was still strong, she dropped roped and filed for D. WAH woke up, So they did Retrouvaille AGAIN ... this time both all in, but prior to that she scheduled STD testing, as she put it...it was not a discussion. She shared she could not even look at WAH, as they sat there she hung her head, they called them in, the technician knew what they were being tested for and she felt judged, ashamed, betrayed, all those raw emotions... shared as these things flooded her she cried... WAH tried to console and ... well as you can imagine was lucky to have not lost an arm .... VERY raw and intense moment hearing her speak ... I was glued to her, managed to look over to my W and she was not looking my direction at all ... just one of those moments when you hear someone say precisely what you have felt, verbalize it for you ... it helped me know that I was not alone, was ok for me to hurt like I did.
Originally Posted By: hopeOK
I think you're doing an amazing job at all this. I understand the feelings of questioning whether or not she can be the spouse you want & if it is the marriage you want. I think all the things that come up create these feelings as well as the trust issue. I've been having periods of this too. Thinking- wouldn't it be easier to start over new with someone who wouldn't put me through this? Someone I don't have these triggers with? But in the end, it wouldn't be easier... just different. And then there are the kids to consider as well.
I hope you guys have a great vacation & that your w does get to go. Our vacation really did wonders for us in regards to connecting w/o the stressors of life and for giving us a lot of time together to enjoy one another.
The trust thing ... It was there but I smiled at myself just last night. W was in the living room all into her camera gear, laid out as she was packing up her stuff, organizing, checking to make sure its all in order, I went to shower. On the bed ... her phone. Knee-jerk reation was to grab it and look ... then I just kept walking, I realized ... if she was hiding something, she would not leave it out ... the fact she did leave it out like that ... its new, the past 3-4 years that thing has been attached to her, as of late ... its just a phone and she does not flinch if I pick it up and move it, hand it to her, whatever. I think it was RobX that posted something to the effect of "If I have to wast MY energy to ensure YOU are faithful/trust worthy ... this will not work out for me" ... that really stuck with me, why should I waste MY energy on something she did ... and honestly she very well could do it again, the A was her choice and out of my control just as a 2nd A would be ... no sense ME wasting myself concerned about that. I decided to trust .. its a decision ... if she would like to work on our M and be with me ... I want that to be a choice for her .. not out of obligation nor control from me.
The triggers, yeah they are there .. had one yesterday ... again .. those are things I am working on and really starting to realize they are items I have fed power to .. the only power they have over me is what I give them. Many things remind me of OM and the A ... I am steadily dealing with them, the big ones are all but gone ... the bed is a non-factor, as is the place and the couch ... now its just little things here and there... and I just need to bug stomp those out as they come.
As far as the Demons ... I am not sure if she is truly facing them at the moment, seems like she has gone more the 'keep busy route' ... new job, upcomming trip, she is all over the camera stuff. I am just observing, understanding those boxes of demons are not something she is going to dive into full force ... she will deal with them in her way on her time table and I would suspect I am not going to be any the wiser while she is actually doing this. Her Circus .. her Monkeys ... I have my hands full with my own.
Let's rattle off some items that W has broken down and cried over the past several months:
-STD -Ghost of XOM -Seeing your reactions to triggers -Loss of the M's innocence -Seeing how the A affected S and you -Addressing intimacy issues -Attending Retrouaville
I am baffled by your declaration that you think she isn't "truly" facing her demons. By what yardstick do you base this assumption on? Is it on you to make this 'decision/assumption' on W's behalf??!! Doesn't W have a say in her OWN process at all? In a way, I find that assumption of yours preposterous and a touch condescending.
I'd argue that you're going through the busy route as well with job, softball, DJ gigs, and trying to force "homework" time together ACCORDING to your own schedule. This is called real life, buddy.
Jeez. W can't have some breathing space here to grow at her own pace. That is the problem right there: You seem to think that things must happen at a certain timetable. When it doesn't happen in that fashion, you just throw up your arms and declare that W isn't "all in on the M." Or delude yourself into the fall back option of "well, I am not all in on the M either BECAUSE W isn't all in."
Don't you see how crazy your assumptions and thought patterns are when it comes to W's own process of dealing with the fall out of the A, piecing back the M, and charting a new path as a working woman.
I get your angle ... but like I said .. I am 'unsure' ... its not as if she is working through these things and we discuss them, and the Demons I was referring to are not the items you listed .. those items are the results of the MLC and the A ... not the 'demons' I think about that set her into MLC, to this day I have no idea what it was from her childhood that sent her into this mess (I can only guess what the triggers were that started it) ... she has not shared this/nor have I poked or prodded ... hence why I said "she will deal with them in her way on her time table" I should have added "If she has not done so already."
As far as MY timetable... or giving her space .. when I was reeling a bit last week yeah I most likely pressured and owned it, I have stepped back since and just observed, STFU and listened to her share just as I have tried to do with this entire crisis
The trust thing ... It was there but I smiled at myself just last night. W was in the living room all into her camera gear, laid out as she was packing up her stuff, organizing, checking to make sure its all in order, I went to shower. On the bed ... her phone. Knee-jerk reation was to grab it and look ... then I just kept walking, I realized ... if she was hiding something, she would not leave it out ... the fact she did leave it out like that ... its new, the past 3-4 years that thing has been attached to her, as of late ... its just a phone and she does not flinch if I pick it up and move it, hand it to her, whatever. I think it was RobX that posted something to the effect of "If I have to wast MY energy to ensure YOU are faithful/trust worthy ... this will not work out for me" ... that really stuck with me, why should I waste MY energy on something she did ... and honestly she very well could do it again, the A was her choice and out of my control just as a 2nd A would be ... no sense ME wasting myself concerned about that. I decided to trust .. its a decision ... if she would like to work on our M and be with me ... I want that to be a choice for her .. not out of obligation nor control from me.
The triggers, yeah they are there .. had one yesterday ... again .. those are things I am working on and really starting to realize they are items I have fed power to .. the only power they have over me is what I give them. Many things remind me of OM and the A ... I am steadily dealing with them, the big ones are all but gone ... the bed is a non-factor, as is the place and the couch ... now its just little things here and there... and I just need to bug stomp those out as they come.
Yeah... you are right... my h does this too- leaves his phone around purposefully. Sometimes I do look at it but it has been less & less. A lot of times i can see it & walk on by. So while this is good that he is leaving it around for my access... my negative thoughts sometimes make me think he could possibly be going further underground. Maybe only talking to OW while he is out of the house or at work... he could be using his work land line phone or he could be using his computer at work. So where there is a will there is a way... & I do know it will be his choice. I just don't want to be sitting around for a long time thinking he is faithful & devoted but on the side, very covertly this time, he is still talking to her. THAT is what gets me on my bad days.
But yes, you are so right... it is not worth the waste of energy. And they have to decide they want to be solely with us... not out of obligation or by force. I wonder at what point ppl feel confident in this being true?
And yep... the triggers only affect us if we allow it. It's tough to stay on top of them & some are easier than others!!
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
Thanks for clarifying your perspective in regard to "those demons."
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
not the 'demons' I think about that set her into MLC, to this day I have no idea what it was from her childhood that sent her into this mess (I can only guess what the triggers were that started it)
What demons are you really talking about here? Keep in mind, those are what you are "guessing" at here.
MLCers vary from each individual. Some reintegrate without 'addressing' the inner demons as it is an organic process. Some do address those demons, like myself.
Are you prepared to accept W "as it is" without her 'working' on her so called inner demons? I have seen MLCers here on the board coming together without getting to the root of the MLC disease. All they know is that they feel into a deep, murky pool called "Fog" and then they come out of it without any real understanding of how or why it happened.
Take me for example here. I didn't have the awareness that the mist engulfing me was MLC because we have no frame of reference that allows us to recognize it as MLC as one would with puberty. Then the fog lifts, and we look around askew wondering what the hell happened to us.
It is an invisible disease that has no rhyme or reason behind it all. The awful thing is that it is not tangible that we can hold on and say with authority "That's definitely MLC" like one with a boy's adam apple (deep voice) or a young girl having her first period.
Are you mentally and emotionally prepared to accept that W may NEVER deal with her so-called "demons" that precipitated the MLC journey??
Thats the thing .... and maybe you can shed some light here. The "Demons" or 'Something' from her past has always been there. During our lives together, on more than one occasion I have had a Dr pull me to the side and ask if she was a rape/molestation victim ... when she goes in for certain tests she has always been extremely uncomfortable ... but nothing ever has come from it. I do not know if its something that has been suppressed, and to be honest I was half way expecting some big revelation about something to this effect once I found out more about MLC. There was a part of me bracing for this ... I have seen/read about traumatic events coming forward to people many years later ... always in the back of my mind with W. And honestly ... not that I wanted it .. but it would not have shocked me for this to have played a role here with her ... again .. all speculation on my part fed by table scraps along the way.
To answer your questions ... of course I accept her regardless, always have, even mid-crisis, and like I said, I am pretty much of the opinion I would not be any the wiser if she dealt with these demons or not (however if there was the 'big' item I mentioned above I would think she would find it hard to hide from me) .. regardless it does not matter, if its more 'the fog' lifted or if she actually did process something that was not at that extreme level.
I think the only thing is ... could she possibly relapse ... that's a rhetorical question btw... one I know no one would have an answer to, nor can I worry about that as just like everything else its far out of my control.
