Answer to: "why didn't you hear it from ME?"

[asitis]

You're getting some great advice, and I hope you see that your W is not throwing some new twist on things that many of us haven't seen before. On the one hand, don't worry about it too much. She has no more idea than you do if she will fall in love with you again, that is only answered by the process (she of course can do so, but what you do and what she chooses are the determinants).

Also, despite what she says, this isn't baseball. You don't get three strikes and your out in Ms. And she doesn't get one chance of this. She is hurting and afraid that her heart will be broken and she'll never know love again. See that as what it is.

Now that said, don't just dismiss what she says as absurd or spewing or ranting. There are often nuggets of truth even when they re-write your history or say things that don't make sense. There are also often clues for what they are really wanting to see from you. They often are not the obvious (become super H).

Keep up with the validating, GAL, detachment, and keep things as light and friendly as you can. Good luck & sorry you are here.

[Flight]

What an amazing support network. I should have spent more time at guy's nights instead of hanging around home hoping for a nugget of affection

The recurring comment and frustration from her seems to be, "It shouldn't have to take a woman leaving to spur a husband to finally wake up and love his wife. He should have been doing it all along. It is insulting if he only wants to change after he is afraid of losing her. It is for the wrong reasons, too little to late"

Just like Michelle says in DR, she doesn't understand why so many women feel this way and aren't thrilled that their husband is finally becomming everthing they want. I am looking for the "truth" in what she is saying because the things she repeats the most contain the keys understaning what she is feeling. Other than saying, "I understand how you feel that way, it must be frustrating to think I only got what you were telling me after all your attempts, AFTER you said you were done". I am trying to find the thoughts and feelings behind this statement and what I do with the knowledge once I find it.

[asitis]

My reading is that Michelle understands the frustration, but also that the tool most commonly used by women to get through (nagging) isn't really effective at getting a man to change. Actions speak louder generally. And I don't mean just walking out, but say the H doesn't come home on time & this bugs the W. Instead of complaining w/ words, take action to communicate, e.g., don't be there when he does come home - get on w/ your life. The problem is when you are using a tool that doesn't really work, haven't tried a tool that does, then drop the bomb with that tool and voila it work, be glad that it did. This doesn't negate the real frustration the W feels, but puts it in perspective. It also is why we need to validate the feelings, as that is the bigger issue (feeling hurt that you weren't heard or seemed to count).

Worse, actually making the changes can trigger anger because it sets off feelings like if he could have done this, why didn't he do this before he caused me so much hurt?

Not really fair, but then neither was the W having to be not heard. So, we deal with what is, and focus on how to actually heal the emotional rift rather than complaining about the unfairness and seeming unreasonableness from our narrow perspective. Later, once the dust has settled, maybe there will be chance to work on the R. Then it would be time to help the W see that nagging isn't the best approach with most men, including you, and while you have learned how to listen better, exposing her to the tool that works is good relationship skill building. Not an easy conversation, but it will likely be part of piecing when you hopefully get there.

[SMXL5]

Hi Flight, Thanks for posting to my thread. I wish I had have posted sooner and got support from the network instead of trying to fix it myself. I think we’re married to the same gal, I had forgotten all the exact same lines I heard in the beginning.

[Flight]

I sometimes have trouble keeping balance standing on the shifting sands of her moods and arguments. I am getting a handle on one thing and then she is throwing me off balance with another. For example, while the common theme is all the things I didn't do in our marriage ("name one thing you did to show you loved me", she brings up strange things she never mentioned before; "I never enjoyed going out with that couple. It made me uncomfortable", "I always faked having fun doing X", "We always did what you wanted to do, why didn't you do what I wanted to do?"

I suppose this falls under rewriting history because I want to say, "but I thought those WERE the things you wanted to do" and "why didn't you metion anything in 10 years until now?". But I see this as maybe an exaggerated view and grasping at anything to fit the picture of how bad the marriage was on every level. I feel I kept asking and trying to do everything I could and it was never enough. I have learned not to defend myself because I can't with this. "But I cooked the food you loved!" "Yes, but you would only eat a few spoonfuls of it". "Ok, how about me going to dinner with YOUR friends?", "Yes, but I couldn't enjoy it because I had to wonder the whole time if you were having fun or not". So for now I just try to validate this is the way she feels.

[asitis]

I sometimes have trouble keeping balance standing on the shifting sands of her moods and arguments. I am getting a handle on one thing and then she is throwing me off balance with another. For example, while the common theme is all the things I didn't do in our marriage ("name one thing you did to show you loved me", she brings up strange things she never mentioned before; "I never enjoyed going out with that couple. It made me uncomfortable", "I always faked having fun doing X", "We always did what you wanted to do, why didn't you do what I wanted to do?"

I suppose this falls under rewriting history because I want to say, "but I thought those WERE the things you wanted to do" and "why didn't you metion anything in 10 years until now?". But I see this as maybe an exaggerated view and grasping at anything to fit the picture of how bad the marriage was on every level. I feel I kept asking and trying to do everything I could and it was never enough. I have learned not to defend myself because I can't with this. "But I cooked the food you loved!" "Yes, but you would only eat a few spoonfuls of it". "Ok, how about me going to dinner with YOUR friends?", "Yes, but I couldn't enjoy it because I had to wonder the whole time if you were having fun or not". So for now I just try to validate this is the way she feels.

Yes, there is a lot of re-writing, and you will be re-writing it best by just listening and validating. Why do I say that is re-writing? Under all that, there is a pain that she didn't feel seen, heard, or loved. You are changing that by showing that you did see, hear, and love her all along by showing that you will do it now. That's what matters. It is the thing that heals that hurt. As that heals, doors can open.

On the keeping balance in the moods, this is one of the biggest reasons for detachment. Nobody said it was going to be easy, but keep at it and it will get easier. There will always be times where they seem to just unload a lot of spew on you. Take this as a good sign. They are processing their pain at least in their own strange way, and asking desperately to be heard and really seen. So many WAW never do this. They truly are done or so wrapped up in their new As or MLC that they mask the pain instead of dealing with it. As hard as these are to go through, they are your opportunity to help the woman you love heal their hurt, and if she comes to see this in you, that goes a long, long way to healing the R.

[AnotherStander]

The recurring comment and frustration from her seems to be, "It shouldn't have to take a woman leaving to spur a husband to finally wake up and love his wife. He should have been doing it all along. It is insulting if he only wants to change after he is afraid of losing her. It is for the wrong reasons, too little to late"

What was your response? If you take nothing else away from these forums and from DR, take this away- ALWAYS VALIDATE. "You feel like you tried to get my attention and that I wasn't listening, that must have been very frustrating. In fact you called it insulting, and I agree that it was. I'm very sorry for making you feel that way." What does the above tell her? That even though you weren't listening before, you ARE listening NOW. You have CHANGED. Of course initially it will make no difference, but if you keep it up she will eventually start thinking "wow he understands my feelings and he listens to me, he really has changed!"

Incidentally, she is 100% correct. We guys put our marriages on autopilot. They do try to get our attention when they feel neglected, but like asitis pointing out, it feels like "nagging" to us and that makes us shut down which just exacerbates the problem.

Just like Michelle says in DR, she doesn't understand why so many women feel this way and aren't thrilled that their husband is finally becomming everthing they want.

The WAS sees it as "too little too late." You can't fix years of neglect with a few weeks of attention.

Other than saying, "I understand how you feel that way, it must be frustrating to think I only got what you were telling me after all your attempts, AFTER you said you were done".

That's a pretty good validation statement, strive for statements like that

I sometimes have trouble keeping balance standing on the shifting sands of her moods and arguments.

Then get off her sands. That is for HER to work through, not you. You work on YOU.

For example, while the common theme is all the things I didn't do in our marriage ("name one thing you did to show you loved me", she brings up strange things she never mentioned before; "I never enjoyed going out with that couple.

Ugh, you're still in "guy mode". You want to explain/ reason/ justify/ etc. Just VALIDATE. "Name one thing you did to show you loved me!" Response- "It sounds like you felt neglected and hurt because I never showed you that I loved you and I am very sorry I made you feel that way." Keep thinking in these terms until you get it. You're not admitting guilt, you are acknowledging her feelings. Because no matter how accurate or inaccurate her statements are, they are a reflection of what she is feeling RIGHT NOW and it is your job to VALIDATE her feelings.

I suppose this falls under rewriting history because I want to say, "but I thought those WERE the things you wanted to do" and "why didn't you metion anything in 10 years until now?".

Right, but that wouldn't be validation, would it? Yes the WAS rewrites history. Yes they will say things that you know aren't true. This is why Sandi's rules say not to get out that photo album and try to show them how much fun you had, because they will say they faked it the whole time. But you can't argue, because in their messed-up mental state they BELIEVE what they are saying. They BELIEVE their re-written history. So when you argue they hear you calling them a liar. But when you validate, it diffuses the tension quickly.

So for now I just try to validate this is the way she feels.

Good, but not "for now", that should be "forever".

[Flight]

What if she wants to have a talk about changing the in-house separation to a physical separation? How do I handle that? We met with a third party to just talk about where we were and they said "why don't you think about it for a few weeks and let's get back together and see how things stand?" I think that was just giving me lip service to say "see, I tried". I think she is going to want to say it has been a few weeks, things haven't changed, who is moving out? I don't feel I should have to draft a separation agreement or do any work on it. It isn't my idea. How do I validate that??? Or do I try to keep stalling?

[SMXL5]

Flight,
I tried stalling and my wife just started staying out overnight at friend’s house. It went from 1 night to 3 then lately 5. For me I wish I had let her go sooner and maybe she would have started to miss us by now and seen it wasn’t as great as she thought it would be. I think stalling her put me in a weak position but I feel for you, it was not what I wanted either. Being apart from her has given me the chance to look over the mistakes I have made and finally accept my big share of the blame. I have not given up and she’s started to temperature text me so who knows?

[asitis]

No MC of any sort until she is committed to fixing the M. That means she has her heart in fixing it.

If she wants a physical separation, listen, validate, and then give it to her. Disagreeing with her is only going to cause her to dig in her heels. She is expecting you to fight to keep her close and not listen to her. That is your past pattern. You are going to really catch her off guard, by saying that you think that makes sense after listening and validating.

Or you say, "I hear you and I want to think about what you said as it caught me a bit off guard." Then the next day or two, you come back and say "I was thinking about all you said the other day, and I see why you feel that a physical separation is what you want, and I agree that it makes sense for both of us. I would like to sit down further and talk about how to best arrange that and what agreements or guidelines we abide by to make that work well. When were you thinking of moving out?"

And, if she wants you to leave, just give her an incredulous look, and say "Really?!" She is the one who wants the S & potentially out of the M, she is the one who gets to leave your house/apt. This is a be firm moment.

When it comes to working out the rules & arrangements, don't ask "what do you want?" Then it becomes a power struggle between the two of you. You want to turn this into a cooperative effort as a couple to take care of your mutual needs and wants as best you can. Still, you want to hear her wants and needs, and you want to show her that you respect her and her ideas. So, you ask "What do you think is best in terms of arrangements and agreements during this phase of the S?" Now it becomes about doing what is best for you. You can substitute "makes sense" for best.

And, it is good that you are preparing ahead of time for the potentiality so that you can stay calm and not fall apart or beg in the panic of the moment. It will likely still catch you in the throat or gut when she says this, no matter how much you prepare, but you can prepare even for that by keep looking over those validation statements & thinking about the above suggestions. That way, you can sort of do this on autopilot while your emotions scream at you.

And physical S may be best for you at this point. It can be really hard to pull of a healthy in-house S.

Good luck & keep off those shifting sands!