Originally 34 rules also known as DB rules, from MWD, Sandi would post these as Sandi's list.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32. Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Edit- There is a series of threads that Sandi2 has written They are linked together for easy reading. There is also a link in the homework assignment but just in case you missed it. I will provide it below.
Edit #32 from "Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see." to what it says now, Point is believe Actions over Words - Cadet
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This is your guide for your WAW. It is unusual for there not to be an A. Are you sure there is no A?
I do not see going dark in this list.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 08/04/1507:37 AM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
i've read and reread the rules. read and reread the validation thread. read and reread detachment stuff.
at this point i have nothing to confirm an A, but the idea of an imaginary OM is disturbing. the only thing i can think is that her dad might be the OM. not in 'that' way, but in the validating, never arguing, always accepting way. i never could get to his level of calmness. at least not for long. it always seemed like there was something i did without even realizing it that would make her mad and start the whole positive feedback loop all over again.
the only real 180 i can do and keep doing is the reamining calm, validating her feelings, and when i disagree to do so calmly and not to bring up examples of her being wrong.
I'll look for 'Edz thread'. if you happen to have a link though i'd appreciate it.
i've been following the 34 recommendations almost perfectly. at least since 7/11. except #6, as i end up explaining the situation to people because they seem so shocked when i tell them. i never ask for help though. except i did ask for prayers for our family from my close familly. and i was asking for people to pray for her heart and her happiness.
she's not here though so i the examples are mostly phone based. again, it makes validating okay, but i can't make eye contact or talk to her in person. it just feels like the longer she's away the more the hardness is solidifying.
i'm GALing and staying positive when i talk with her, but my God is it hard to do sometimes.
M36,W34 T18 years M9 years D3,D6 W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15 ILYBNILWY6/2015 W moves to parents house 6/30/15 W removes wedding band 7/3/15 My ring back on 8/8/15 Served 8/11/2015.
The key paragraph in the going dark thread is: its what you do whilst you are waiting for your S to recover from A, MLC depression.........
It doesn't seem from your writing your W is wayward or MLC or depressed. Just not happy in her R. This is where DB comes in, DR book is about this very thing, it was written for you and with your sitch in mind.
If that's the case then Sandi guidelines are those you need, to work on you.
My 2c worth.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 08/04/1509:40 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
V, she did say she was depressed when she left and she seemed to be down for some time in the past month(s).
"I'm not happy, i don't know if i'll be happy again." that was another of her comments.
so again, she said she was depressed and seems to have been crying a few times i've seen her since she left.
when she calls to talk (about the girls - a gift, schedule, etc.) she always seems to transition into something that she seems to want to argue about, or to convince me that something i did in the past was wrong, or that i didn't support her, or that i was bad. my IC was puzzled by this and wondered if it was her trying to assuage her guilt over the decision to divorce.
i don't know. as said, it's been a little over a month since she's been gone. so i feel like it's still okay for me to say i'm in a haze.
detaching is so hard. and that's where i am right now. it's really awful.
thanks V for the input. any morsel of wisdom is super appreciated.
M36,W34 T18 years M9 years D3,D6 W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15 ILYBNILWY6/2015 W moves to parents house 6/30/15 W removes wedding band 7/3/15 My ring back on 8/8/15 Served 8/11/2015.
OK, 714, when someone says they are depressed and down isnt depression. Your M was finishing, WAW left it. I think that entitles her to feel down don't you? That isn't necessarily being depressed, Just unhappy and sad.
This is from our NHS website: Depression is more than simply feeling unhappy or fed up for a few days. We all go through spells of feeling down, but when you're depressed you feel persistently sad for weeks or months, rather than just a few days. Some people still think that depression is trivial and not a genuine health condition. They're wrong. Depression is a real illness with real symptoms, and it's not a sign of weakness or something you can "snap out of" by "pulling yourself together".
How to tell if you have depression
Depression affects people in different ways and can cause a wide variety of symptoms. They range from lasting feelings of sadness and hopelessness, to losing interest in the things you used to enjoy and feeling very tearful. Many people with depression also have symptoms of anxiety. There can be physical symptoms too, such as feeling constantly tired, sleeping badly, having no appetite or sex drive, and complaining of various aches and pains. The severity of the symptoms can vary. At its mildest, you may simply feel persistently low in spirit, while at its most severe depression can make you feel suicidal and that life is no longer worth living. Most people experience feelings of stress, sadness or anxiety during difficult times. A low mood may improve after a short time, rather than being a sign of depression.
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I read your posts on Sandi new WW thread about your WAW reactions to you, her petulance, anger and clear screaming banshee style reaction. That's not depressive style, but railing and annoyance. I am going to suggest you read No More Mr Nice Guy and Codependent No More, (I personally like Codependence for Dummies) and see if there are any thoughts there. Consider if your boundaries are strong enough and if you are detached.
Additionally consider if WAW is abusive in some way. There are three styles of abuse patters, Reactive (in response to another's abuse of you and never initiates), situational (because of your life and current position- lasts for the stress period itself and initiates, finishes when the stress ends) and systemic (in the personality of the individual and present throughout the R and in R after R).
If your WAW is a WW then of course that's different but if she isn't, your strategy is completely different. If you treat a WAW as if she were wayward, and behave as if she were (like my WH treated me) then I believe you will drive her further away. If she is abusive (situational?) then your strategy is different yet again. As you discuss your sitch and have IC help then decide on your 180s. It is so important for you, this may be an instance where the board counsellors would be helpful in determining your way forward.
I think we need to know more and have more Intel. I will ponder some more.
In the meanwhile you can consider the abuse thread.
Thought it would be helpful to have your posts on Sandis thread to refer to:,
first, i wasn't trying to shift the blame to 'being mad at someone else.' i was saying it more like i was stupid because i wasn't even mad at her and yet i snapped at her.
i've been in therapy over a year and just switched to a new therapist after my wife left. the difference between then and now is pretty remarkable i think, but it wasn't remarkable enough to her obviously.
as the last year progressed and i got better control and backed off, giving her alone time and stuff that she asked for, our arguments became more intense and she was the one screaming at me. she kicked a hole in the bathroom door and a bedroom door, knocking the jamb off in the process. she also screamed 'i hate you' several times during an argument because i was saying i wouldn't listen and that we needed a time to cool off. i was stonewalling, but it was the more instinctual kind where it was so heated i was just shutting down inside to make it stop. which works so well as we know.
it was really like our roles switched. i would suggest going out, and she would be mad or pouty. i would listen to her complain and not judge. she would blame me for things in the past or ask me why i did them (all stuff from my past playbook which made it doubly frustrating). she kicked in doors, slammed doors, kicked the inside of the car dashboard while driving, etc.
so yes, i had a few bouts of anger, but most of the year was good with more sadness and regret on my part than anger. i told her all the time how beautiful she as, how i loved her, etc. but she said none of it made up for the past. i am leaps and bounds better with the D3 and D6, and I always tried to make sure she had a lot of time with them. (this hurt me in the long run because i was always reluctant to do date nights or 'rob' her of time with the girls.
and she told me why she left; to let the world in; a third of her life was over and she hadn't done what she wanted to do; she wants to focus on her career; she isn't in love with me; she thinks we're better parents when we're not together; and she doesn't think she's good for me; and she's letting me free to find someone that can make me happy. and another gem was that basically i bring out the worst in her.
i hope i don't sound like i'm making excuses. i am fully aware of what i did and how it progressed to where it has.
and no, the anger stuff hasn't affected jobs. so yeah, been in therapy a year, gotten a good handle on most of it, but still had impulse issues and problems validating feelings if i felt i couldn't understand them (stupid i know).
and i didn't believe she would walk away because she had left a year earlier and come back on multiple conditions i had implemented or were ongoing. to me things were getting better with some speed bumps, but after the fact she said the couples counseling wasn't that effective for her and that every time she felt love rekindled an argument would blow it out. whereas i was falling more deeply in love with her than i had been before.
again, not trying to make excuses. not trying to say she isn't justified. not trying to shift blame. not trying to lessen my part in it.
just looking for advice and ideas.
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Sandi response Thanks for your response. It does clarify some things. Has your W ever displayed such acts of temper, as she's presently doing?
Quote:
it was really like our roles switched. i would suggest going out, and she would be mad or pouty. i would listen to her complain and not judge. she would blame me for things in the past or ask me why i did them (all stuff from my past playbook which made it doubly frustrating). she kicked in doors, slammed doors, kicked the inside of the car dashboard while driving, etc.
We have actually seen this same stitch in past stories. It is not easy for the couple to find a balance in the temperament of the MR. I feel sorry for the kids, b/c this has been their example of how to act when one is angry, so they will likely display the same type of behavior.........unless the family can receive help in learning and teaching new coping skills. I am glad you are sticking with a therapist. Is the new one helping you more than the previous therapist?
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The kids didn't see much of this. It usually happened when they were asleep or were spending the night at the grandparents. they might see her crying after getting really mad at me for something, and they'd ask why mom was crying. i'd usually tell them that everyone needs to cry sometime, and a couple times i called them in and we all gave her a big hug together.
D6 has a temper, but for me the entire year has been about calming, being with her when she's upset, explaining the ideas of choosing how to feel, etc. the idea being that i could show her how to choose as i changed and became better. I did get mad a few times, when she hit her sister, etc. but it was over in a few seconds and then i tried to work through the feelings with her, to try and make it a teachable moment.
again, try not to hear excuses in these comments.
my wife hasn't displayed the physical anger before this past year (as i was in counseling and getting a grip on things). she's yelled and screamed at me in the past, but all the physical stuff is new. it's one of the reasons she left i think, saying i bring out the worst in her.
so i don't know what to do. she just grew increasingly unhappy it seems throughout the year, bringing up older and older stuff but never processing it out.
at one point she said "i guess i'm not over all these things from the past." whereas before she would always talk about forgiveness and how important it was. how feelings were your choice and one had to choose to be happy - that no one else could do it for them. at the time i couldn't comprehend it. i was so lodged in frustration and discontent.
i so want my W to go to IC, but i, as the LBH, can't bring it up. as i've said, i so want her to be happy. i feel very responsible for her unhappiness and i just want her to smile and laugh again. and of course, i want that to be with me. i'd rather see her happy though.
this [censored].
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There are a few things here, prior to the last year there were argument, heated but give and take. In that last year is ranting etc and some physical abuse. Abuse especially physical abuse should stop. Always, whenever I read about it, to me it's a red flag sign. Be safe, ensure you are safe and that your children are safe.
Get a good L and keep on seeing IC.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
You could also consider reading PigPens thread, there is a man who truly has grown in front of our eyes on this board. Remarkable and extraordinary. If you want other examples Uturn and Jellybean.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 08/05/1508:15 AM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
The 'snapping at my wife" that I refer to was flipping her off and telling her 'f you.' (reading your stuff vanilla makes me just want to quit and leave her alone). it was over in a second, but reading all these abuse things makes me just want to give in and pray for her to be happy.
to be clear, i had never said or done that to her before. after reading up i personally believe it was the adderall crash that aggravated it. but i obviously still did it. and now she's gone.
thinking back she did block stand in my way a lot in the past as i tried to leave rooms, despite me asking her to move, etc. most of the time it was to try and leave the space because the argument / fight was ramping up and i just wanted to escape it.
i don't know what to do anymore.
it's that same feeling - how can this be happening, etc. ugh. i need to do some work.
thanks all.
M36,W34 T18 years M9 years D3,D6 W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15 ILYBNILWY6/2015 W moves to parents house 6/30/15 W removes wedding band 7/3/15 My ring back on 8/8/15 Served 8/11/2015.
714, please be gentle with yourself, that isn't letting yourself off the hook, it is saying time to change and work on myself. If it was a one time thing, then that is what it is. Some M have some interactions this way.
An opportunity 714 for you to learn new strategies with W, to discuss openly with an IC and to get the IRL support you need. The boil is lanced, the worst is over, it will never be like this again. You can stand and DB. Become the best you can be for you.
You have been brave enough to post about it. To acknowledge and not to justify so in my eyes you are 100 steps ahead of my WH. Absolutely, and I think the first thing to do is say I acknowledge myself as I was but I am not that person. I can not now unknow. In your life it requires evaluation not shame. Can I recommend a Ted Talk by Breen Brown on vulnerability and change. Whether this was part of your dynamic in your R or its substance, it need never be like this again. There are ways of disagreeing in an M and they are technique.
Now is the time to know this can change, you have turned a corner, completely. And it is very inspiring. Forgive and make peace with yourself. I have stood in your shoes, I was a reactive abuser on more than one occasion and I believe I changed it, so I know it's possible to change this dynamic. Reactive means I responded but did not initiate the abuse but none the less I did so.
If you want to post I am here and the wonderful members of this board will I know contribute.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 08/05/1509:04 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
