Jim0987 #14 - due for another upgrade soon

[SunnyB]

Z

This is where the big boy pants come in. Your thier dad and its your job to be there for them and part of that is keeping their sadness to a minimum

Jim, honey, this^^^. I know it's hard but forget your W, it's not about her anymore. It's about those precious kids. They are far too young to understand right now. But rest assured that someday they will figure it all out and what you want them to figure out is that you were the one who put them first.

[Sotto]

Hey Jim, I'm sorry you had a tough handover. From where I'm sitting, your W reacts in this way because she sees your D hurting and she knows that her recent decisions have contributed towards that. She doesn't want to face that, so it is deflected towards you.

That said, I can see how your response - I wish I could see more of you - could have inflamed things. I don't think it was a terrible response, but it perhaps played into your W's guilt even more. Maybe next time, just validating may be best - 'I know Sweetheart' 'I understand' and so on.

I also think you have have an erroneous perception in respect of your W's life right now. It's all rosy. She and OM have great dates, and a 'new family life.' Well, I can tell you for sure that even if things are rosy right now, it is a glossy veneer. Like gloss paint over a rotting windowsill. R's built on such fragile foundations are precarious at best. And you certainly shouldn't feel like you have been replaced and are peeping through the window of an idyllic life.

As for sitting home alone. I think Zeus is onto something here. I truly understand that you would rather be with the kids all the time. But the fact that you are not brings opportunities - bachelor life! It wasn't what you hoped for, granted. But how can you make the most of this? It sounds as though you may have let GAL slip, and could take the reins a little more in this area.....so let's hear what Jim is going to be getting up to on this front??

I think you are doing so well Jim, and are a lovely presence on this forum. What we all need to recognise is that things play out in their own time. And whilst people blithely say 'it's a marathon' this reflects a reality of many months of little or no movement, and then some more months etc etc. And this is truly why patience is so important.

So, time to start shifting your perspective about their 'fairytale family/hot dates life' and further building up your own life, so that you are living a fulfilling life alone for now.

Take care lovely Jim xx

[Vanilla]

This is your experience of it Jim and it's ok to miss the kids, no matter WW views.

I like RDs comment for soothing your D , " next time lets do X or Y".

I also think things are not so rosy for WW as you think, and let's not go there at all, not worth it. It influences how she is though. A speedy handover is in everyone's interest I feel, do you?

So, in practical terms what could you do to change this handover issue, (this assumes you want it changed, you may not)?

What could you say to D to make this easier for her?

If this needs a 180 what would it be?

V

[jim0987]

Morning All,

Thank you so much for posting. I'll admit I feel quite defensive about a bunch of things which i will explain in a sec but the fact that I recognise that is a a good thing.

Just continuing the Marathon Analogy, it just feels like I've hit the wall but i know i just got to keep going.

So GAL first as I can see this is a concern but I want to reassure you that i'm not sat at home being a complete hermit. I'm just lacking a bit in some of the solid social connections that I could do with right now. Most of my friends are married and several are now expecting kids so they just don't have much availability. As for newer friends, well I'm working on that but things just take more planning at the moment. I can fill time and am, but its filling time.

So back to the interaction side of things, well the defensive feeling is because I feel like for the most part I have been the positive one with the kids but yesterday it got the better of me and she immediately jumped on me. On the various occasions XW has cried at handovers I've never jumped on her to tell her to be the grown up. But this is the same double standard that she applied when my dad didn't speak to her which made him awful, but when her mum blanked me that was fine.

So I feel defensive here but I think that's because i know i need to be more positive (and usually am) and in that sense know that she and you all are right. I guess it just bothers me that the one time I'm not she feels she can lecture me on it.

And yes part of it is because she is doing so many of the things that when i suggested it i was being awful and now she is choosing them. And yes a HUGE part of it is that i can see how much she is enjoying her new life and i feel resentful of that. Being positive is hard when you don't feel positive.

I'm trying to let it go, I really am, and I know that actually I could have the same kind of life and I am enjoying the freedom for a number of things, just wish I had XW to share it with (even though this is contradictory as I only have the freedom because the kids arent here)

Equally I know that faking happy and pretending there was nothing wrong didn't serve me well for the last 5 years, and I don't want to teach my kids that's how you handle situations.

My handling of situations like that were always an issue for me, and evidentally still are. I just didn't want to agree with her and say something like 'yes you're right, its important to be positive' - I felt the need to justify and defend my position and stand up for myself despite the fact that she was right.

The honest answer if i had given it would have been
'XW, I know you are right and that we need to be positive and it is something i've been trying to do. I certainly could have responded to D4 better just now but seeing you looking so good and happy with all of the signs of your new life, together with you taking the kids away is still very painful and upsetting for me as it reminds me just what i've lost. As a result I didnt handle things just now as well as I should have done. Please be assured that I will always reassure them that we both love them very much.'

It would have been nice if there was the slightest hint of understanding on her part, or recognition that at the previous 50 odd handovers (none of which last more than a couple of minutes) I have been very positive and usually deal with things in a 'I know, but i will see you in a couple of days and we are going to ..........' way

Having said all that, of late I have let D4 see too much negativity from me and so need to rein that in (I said a couple of derogatory things about OM1 when she was talking about him) and I still haven't found a good answer to give when D4 says something about wanting mummy and daddy to be together.

So in short I've not done brilliantly and must try harder, but as Dr Suess said 'unslumping oneself is not easily done'

Thank you again for your input.

[rd500]

Hi Jim. I get how your feeling and being positive when you don't feel it is soooo hard. It's clear from your postings that your a great dad and how much you love your kids This does not help with hand overs and of course you get defensive when you perceive a form of attack

No one can be in your shoes or know exactly how your feeling at each moment but I think the trick is to stay on an even keel. If W attacks , listen , process your thoughts and answer in a non committal way. My fav with EXW is ' no prob ' and I smile She cannot come back at me because if she does she is the one dragging out the argument / strained convo

Again , I can't imagine the heart break at handing over a couple of angels to a person that has caused them pain but it is what it is and your only way to the end of this is through it

On the new life your W has , I would doubt all is rosy in the garden No relationship goes perfectly smooth Theirs is built on lies and will not be harmonious all the time or anywhere near it

My L/C deals only in facts and will not entertain conjecture While she will agree conjecture can be proved right sometimes, why would you bother giving it headspace ? What ever the state of W and her life , it will play out as it will.
Jim is a good guy and deserves better than this and time will provide so much more. If you need to speculate about anything , try picturing Jim happy , in a loving , committed R with someone very special , whoever that might be. It will happen Jim.

You have your health , two fantastic kids and great life ahead of you. You been setback at the moment Jim but you will get through this

Thanks for the continued support on my thread

Ps. Red Bulls at the side and the speed blocks along the sides at the bottom with a yellow R1 on the back of the lid ! !!!

Take care. Rd

[Sotto]

Hi Jim - me again. Lucky for you I'm not working today - currently packing, but keeping an eye on the forum too. Here's my response to your post - hope this is useful

Morning All,

Thank you so much for posting. I'll admit I feel quite defensive about a bunch of things which i will explain in a sec but the fact that I recognise that is a a good thing.

It's okay to feel defensive - this stuff is TOUGH!!

Just continuing the Marathon Analogy, it just feels like I've hit the wall but i know i just got to keep going.

Good to realise this and tweak your approach, or as you say - just keep going....

So GAL first as I can see this is a concern but I want to reassure you that i'm not sat at home being a complete hermit. I'm just lacking a bit in some of the solid social connections that I could do with right now. Most of my friends are married and several are now expecting kids so they just don't have much availability. As for newer friends, well I'm working on that but things just take more planning at the moment. I can fill time and am, but its filling time.

It's good that you see this and are planning things. I think it takes time and perseverence for 'just filling time' to become 'truly fulfilling life.' But you are right - sitting home hermit-like won't help any of us, so this is an area to keep moving forward on.

So back to the interaction side of things, well the defensive feeling is because I feel like for the most part I have been the positive one with the kids but yesterday it got the better of me and she immediately jumped on me. On the various occasions XW has cried at handovers I've never jumped on her to tell her to be the grown up. But this is the same double standard that she applied when my dad didn't speak to her which made him awful, but when her mum blanked me that was fine.

I can understand your frustration. That said, your comments sound a little 'scorecard' and following the 'double standard' perspective is always going to be a cheeseless tunnel. She isn't going to see this until she sees it.

So I feel defensive here but I think that's because i know i need to be more positive (and usually am) and in that sense know that she and you all are right. I guess it just bothers me that the one time I'm not she feels she can lecture me on it.

I can see you thinking 'THE ONE TIME....EVERY OTHER TIME I...' Well, I think it's great that you manage this most times. Good for you. I would take what you can from this time and move forward. Not always trying to do things better and better, just as best you can.

And yes part of it is because she is doing so many of the things that when i suggested it i was being awful and now she is choosing them. And yes a HUGE part of it is that i can see how much she is enjoying her new life and i feel resentful of that. Being positive is hard when you don't feel positive.

I understand. One thing that everyone says if they and their S get to talk about how things were. Things were and are completely different to how you perceive them. Try and remember this every time you feel like Tiny Tim peeping in the window at someone else's Christmas feast.

I'm trying to let it go, I really am, and I know that actually I could have the same kind of life and I am enjoying the freedom for a number of things, just wish I had XW to share it with (even though this is contradictory as I only have the freedom because the kids arent here)

Have you had a look at my new signature quote? It resonated with me. You have suffered a loss. The loss of your M as it was. However, if we can work towards gratitude, rather than resentment and wishing for things we don't have, I think it carries us a long way forwards. Have you considered keeping a gratitude journal for a little while?

Equally I know that faking happy and pretending there was nothing wrong didn't serve me well for the last 5 years, and I don't want to teach my kids that's how you handle situations.

It's a big thing to learn - expressing how you feel, knowing that getting your needs met is important - and being authentic in your approach.

My handling of situations like that were always an issue for me, and evidentally still are. I just didn't want to agree with her and say something like 'yes you're right, its important to be positive' - I felt the need to justify and defend my position and stand up for myself despite the fact that she was right.

Yes, I agree your suggested response was a good one - justifying and defending is cheeseless tunnel territory IMHO...

The honest answer if i had given it would have been
'XW, I know you are right and that we need to be positive and it is something i've been trying to do. I certainly could have responded to D4 better just now but seeing you looking so good and happy with all of the signs of your new life, together with you taking the kids away is still very painful and upsetting for me as it reminds me just what i've lost. As a result I didnt handle things just now as well as I should have done. Please be assured that I will always reassure them that we both love them very much.'

It would have been nice if there was the slightest hint of understanding on her part, or recognition that at the previous 50 odd handovers (none of which last more than a couple of minutes) I have been very positive and usually deal with things in a 'I know, but i will see you in a couple of days and we are going to ..........' way

Yeah, I hear you. But if we get on to the 'how unfair it all is' avenue, it doesn't serve us well, you know? She may not offer you the slightest hint of understanding for a little while yet. But that doesn't affect the essence of who you are and what you are doing. In fact, that you carry on despite this shows great courage and fortitude I think.

Having said all that, of late I have let D4 see too much negativity from me and so need to rein that in (I said a couple of derogatory things about OM1 when she was talking about him) and I still haven't found a good answer to give when D4 says something about wanting mummy and daddy to be together.

This is important I think, and I would completely avoid commenting on OM1 to D4. The thing to remember about OM1 is - if it wasn't him it would have been someone else. He was just THERE at the time. If D says she wants M&D to be together, might you validate and reassure her that M&D may not be able to live together just now, but both love her very very much?

So in short I've not done brilliantly and must try harder, but as Dr Suess said 'unslumping oneself is not easily done'

I don't know about 'must try harder.' That sounds like putting pressure on yourself at a time when things are hard. But maybe just doing more of what works and tweaking where it doesn't. Learning from tougher interactions - all for the purpose of your own happiness and fulfilment in the longer term, and your own wellbeing and that of your kids just now.

Thank you again for your input.

You're welcome Jim. We are always here for you...You've given me a lot of support in recent months, and I truly appreciate it. I hope my thoughts are helpful & that your week improves.

[jim0987]

Hi Toots. You really are a star

You are right its my perception of unfairness that is causing me the issues here. The picking up this time when usually
I am very positive and the unfairness that she has this great life and I don't feel I do even though so much of my life is really good.

A gratitude journal may not be a bad thing, starting with the 6 days a fortnight I do still get to see my kids.

I do need to understand why I was so reticent to back down and just say she was right, it wouldn't have cost me anything. Not doing so was just score keeping on my part and because I didn't want her blaming me for D4 being upset (more score keeping) but she was going to blame me regardless of what I said.

The double standard thing is more frustration that she cant see it rather than score keeping though.

These aren't good habits for any situation though the difference now being with anyone else I would probably get in touch to say something and smooth things out.

The thing to remember about OM1 is - if it wasn't him it would have been someone else.

I know its true but god, its a hideous thought for all that it implies. Because much as I can see her happiness (and I really can), her lack of interest in me if she wasn't would be worse.

And that is the core of all of this, no matter how much I leave her to her life, that I try to detach, that I try to make the best of my life, that i try to respond in the most constructive way, that I try to be the best man and best dad I can be, and so many other things... it doesn't change that I still love her and yet she only sees the negative in me. And that just really blows.

Toots, you really are a great support, its just a shame you can't pop down the M6 and I'd cook you dinner to say thank you.

[Vanilla]

Jim

Some of that which WW says is irrationality. So you are sadly going have to deal with the irrational, probably for quite a long time. And unfairness and although it hurts and you did not deserve this irrationality there are never guarantees with a wayward spouse. It's the expectation of fairness that gets us and there isn't any.

You can deal with irrationality by validation and then saying "There is much that you are saying I don't agree with so we will have to disagree. My children come first for me as I know they do for you so we need to find workable solutions, and I know it can be worked out".

Your feelings don't count in this. I think I would make this your 180 with WW, to study ways of dealing with the irrational. You could start with Albert Ellis and some of his expectation theory principles. He has three main principles and one of them is the expectation that life is fair.

V

[Sotto]

Glad if I was able to help a little, Jim

Hope your day improved! xx

[jim0987]

So I've been pondering and the general consensus is that I didn't handle things well on Sunday (that and I know I got it wrong when I did some things for D4 but told W afterwards rather than before)

To that end I was thinking of sending the following text message:

Hi. I was reflecting on the handover on Sunday. For various reasons it affected me more than usual and so I recognise I wasn't as positive as I would typically like to be. I just wanted to reassure you that I do and will always do my best to make sure the kids know we both love them very much.

Now my mind is a little bit cloudy about stuff at the moment (including a request to swap childcare so XW and OM1 can have a long weekend away.) So I'm not sure whether I should say anything BUT this us about right thing to do rather than any effect - I said in a previous post that if it was anyone else I would definitely smooth it out.

I thought post for advice and to stall while I think more.

Thanks in advance.