Huge Backslide After Affair Recovery

[hopeOK]

I would love some feedback on current situation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2589306&#Post2589306

[hopeOK]

Well we've taken a turn for hopefully the better.

I had individual counseling on Monday evening (3 days ago) & came away with the feeling that I've been making the situation worse. For one, I make assumptions & run with them. For two, I don't slow down in the heat of the moment and end up saying things that push my H further away. And in these conversations, he is gauging whether or not he can possibly start to trust that I am not going to hurt him again. Oh & my counselor seemed to think that my H was making very small baby steps towards me. Taking some steps back but he was taking some steps towards me that I really didn't totally see as that. So I left the appointment pretty hopeful that I could work on my communication to not push him further away (slow down and think about what I'm about to say & what will happen when he says it), stop assuming things, and that at least maybe there has been a few baby steps he has taken towards me.

So then tuesday morning I had sent him a message saying I was probably better off just not saying anything in our arguments and he sent an ugly email back saying that it would be great if I'd include in that any accusations, trying to catch me in stuff, and quizzes in that not talking.

I wrote back and said I knew I'd been making the situation worse & that I was working on it.

He then wrote back -
I apologize for holding on so hard to these bad feelings and anger. I am going to try to do better starting today. I really think we can get back on track.

Me- Gosh. I am so so sorry for making such a mess of us. I am committed to doing better and working on myself.

H- It doesn’t help when I just hold on to stuff and feel worse and worse. I realized after reading to D last night that my choices in this are making everything in my life worse and moving me towards losing her and him. I do not want that or to lose you either.

me- I do not want to lose them or you either. I have been so scared of that.

H- Well let’s fix it. there’s no good future or outcomes in the way we’ve been doing this.

So... at least we are now on the road to seeing if we can fix this mess and he is no longer out to punish me and doing various things to hurt me.

When this message came I was so relieved I cried. I told myself though that this was just the first step... he would have to follow up with various things such as putting his ring back on, friending me on fb, unlocking his devices & not being so secretive. So he did all these things that same day. He held my hand in the car. It was very awkward & I felt very nervous... I guess from nearly 6 weeks of being so anxious about what he was doing and what else he would do to hurt me.

It has been a couple days and the relief has settled. I am still very thankful to be in this new place of potential recovery but I am starting to have my anxieties come back. For example, yesterday he went by & picked up some fruit from a fruit stand near his work. He texted me at 4:15 to say he was getting on the highway to come home. Then he texted a few minutes later to say he had picked up some fruit at the stand. Later that night, I happen to see the receipt on the counter from the fruit & it says 3:30p. Immediately I am panicked. But I talk myself down and tell myself that nothing good will come of asking H about it... or at least I could not come up with a way to ask that would not set him on the defensive and send up down another one of the bad paths of he feels I'm accusing & gets nervous & defensive and that never ends well. So I stuffed it for the night. But it has still been haunting me. And today my anxieties are taking it a bit further thinking- what if he just agreed to "fix" things between us so I would relax & not go seek out an attorney (which I had set a boundary that weekend about how I was going to have to adjust my actions accordingly if he continued to be secretive, not transparent, and dishonest). So I am fearing that he just wanted to pacify me so that he could relax & continue whatever relationship on the side he wanted to. Now this is my paranoid side, I realize. There could be truth to it or it could be just my fears. But figuring out that is where I am stuck.

So tonight or tomorrow... soon... I intend to ask him how he thinks we should go about fixing things. We are so far from being comfortable with one another (which to some extent will take time) and trusting one another... I don't think that we can just sit back and wait for it to happen. Pretty sure he is not going to be willing to go back to counseling for all the reasons he has already been so adamant against it... so this also sends me in a hopeless state of- how are we ever going to fix this on our own with professional help??!! How are we going to keep this from happening in the future?!

I also know I have to ask him some questions to help myself move on like what he did when we were on the outs, why he did what he did, and is he still "friends" with the OW.

And on his side of things, I know he has a lot of resentments towards me... so I also want to ask him how we can move past those... what would help him to heal from the things that I have done.


If anyone has any recommendations on recovery w/o professional help, please share. I feel very overwhelmed with the prospect and I am very much questioning whether I can trust my H after what he has done. (He might be asking the same thing of me!)

[CaliGuy]

hope

Ok ... I get where you are at, its a very tough spot to be in. In my case W and OM were an on again and off again A for 18 months or so.

Some questions you have ... really ask yourself ... will the truth help you or will it just cause even more pain? Its really easy to be stuck in the past and stay there, its easy to spin ... truth is you are still very fresh in all this. I will just pull out a few things you listed:

H- It doesn’t help when I just hold on to stuff and feel worse and worse. I realized after reading to D last night that my choices in this are making everything in my life worse and moving me towards losing her and him. I do not want that or to lose you either.

H- Well let’s fix it. there’s no good future or outcomes in the way we’ve been doing this.

Your H is admitting his own faults, looking in the mirror and owning HIS part in all this ... this is a step forward

he would have to follow up with various things such as putting his ring back on, friending me on fb, unlocking his devices & not being so secretive. So he did all these things that same day. He held my hand in the car. It was very awkward & I felt very nervous... I guess from nearly 6 weeks of being so anxious about what he was doing and what else he would do to hurt me.

Here his ACTIONS are backing up the words ... what do we talk about here .. believe nothing of what they SAY...50% of what they DO.

Then....

For example, yesterday he went by & picked up some fruit from a fruit stand near his work. He texted me at 4:15 to say he was getting on the highway to come home. Then he texted a few minutes later to say he had picked up some fruit at the stand. Later that night, I happen to see the receipt on the counter from the fruit & it says 3:30p. Immediately I am panicked.

So .. you snoop, you are looking for a sign a clue and you are getting yourself spinning as to WHERE H could have been/done in that 45 minutes.

Lets look at this ... he just told you he was wanted to work on things, he even mentioned " it would be great if I'd include in that any accusations, trying to catch me in stuff, and quizzes in that not talking." but ... you are still at it. I do not blame you.... but this is one of his concerns and you are not being open and honest.

Here is the deal, you have to COMMUNICATE, do not assume ... those 45 minutes, maybe he helped an old lady across the street, maybe he met up with OW to tell her face to face things were over and he was working on his F, maybe he had a quickie in the hotel .... regardless of what he did ... you are not DBing here! You are focused on his every move and it will not help him trust you .. nor you trust him. I am not 2x4ing you here .. because I caught myself doing almost the same thing these past weeks.

Going through this without professional help will be tricky as you do seem like you want to push and press H ... he is going at this at his own pace, I do think hitting him up about that 45 minutes that were unaccounted for will not go as you hope .. and will backfire. At some point you have to decide to trust, you might not be there yet, your H might not be there yet .. it takes time .... rather than speculate (on the 45 minutes) I would wait untill you have something tangible that you can bring up ... otherwise it makes you appear needy and clingy .... and mostly that 'you are trying to catch him' as he put it.

[hopeOK]

hope

Ok ... I get where you are at, its a very tough spot to be in. In my case W and OM were an on again and off again A for 18 months or so.


So .. you snoop, you are looking for a sign a clue and you are getting yourself spinning as to WHERE H could have been/done in that 45 minutes.

Lets look at this ... he just told you he was wanted to work on things, he even mentioned " it would be great if I'd include in that any accusations, trying to catch me in stuff, and quizzes in that not talking." but ... you are still at it. I do not blame you.... but this is one of his concerns and you are not being open and honest.

Here is the deal, you have to COMMUNICATE, do not assume ... those 45 minutes, maybe he helped an old lady across the street, maybe he met up with OW to tell her face to face things were over and he was working on his F, maybe he had a quickie in the hotel .... regardless of what he did ... you are not DBing here! You are focused on his every move and it will not help him trust you .. nor you trust him. I am not 2x4ing you here .. because I caught myself doing almost the same thing these past weeks.

Going through this without professional help will be tricky as you do seem like you want to push and press H ... he is going at this at his own pace, I do think hitting him up about that 45 minutes that were unaccounted for will not go as you hope .. and will backfire. At some point you have to decide to trust, you might not be there yet, your H might not be there yet .. it takes time .... rather than speculate (on the 45 minutes) I would wait untill you have something tangible that you can bring up ... otherwise it makes you appear needy and clingy .... and mostly that 'you are trying to catch him' as he put it.

Ok, ok. I definitely needed this. I knew there was a reason to come post on here.

I definitely see what you are saying & I definitely do not want to get back into that mode of feeling panicked over something so small & bringing it up & starting another war. I am very aware of how bad that has been for us & that is why I stopped myself & haven't brought it up. I guess I am so worried that something is going to happen between him & someone else & I am going to miss it for a good while. He had his affair for about 4 months & I only started to catch on to something really in the last month or so. Then he said he was "putting it on hold" (I realize now how bizarre that wording is & how indicative that is of what was to come) & while I was working my butt off to do what I needed to do he was still very much in communication with her for 2 weeks before I busted him again. Then I really messed up by saying some extremely hurtful things that the found out about & he resumes contact with her (never did I find anything romantic... so there is still that question). So I guess I am super paranoid that he is or is going to end up in another relationship w/ her. But I don't want to cause problems if he is not!

So thank you for coming on here and saying what you did. I did realize I was assuming and jumping to conclusions but wasn't sure what to do with the fear I felt about seeing that receipt on the counter w/ that time. I even did tell myself that the time on the cash register could have been off... it is a farm stand after all! So I do realize that it could totally be nothing.

So on that note, how do I stop looking for every little thing. I didn't go searching for the receipt, it was just on the counter although when I saw it there I did investigate the time. Should I stay off his devices? Should I not check into things at all? This seems like setting myself up for something to happen w/o me realizing it but maybe I am coming at this from the wrong place. I do want to trust him & I do want to move on from his affair... I am just so worried about it happening again!

Also, I have been thinking of asking him about if he has ended his resumed contact w/ the OW. This is ok, right? I have already set the boundary that he should not be talking to her outside of a professional relationship (they work together)... but not sure if I need to follow up on this or not. I feel like we are a bit on shaky ground just newly deciding to avoid divorce & fix what went wrong... so I don't want to mess that up. But I do feel concerned about whether or not he told her they needed to stop talking outside of work.

We have a vacation coming up next week & I've even thought to just keep things light & not about the relationship for a bit... so we can build back a little bit of a good feeling towards each other through the vacation, and then have the more serious talks after that. But then I also have this thing in the back of my mind that is saying- we need to find out what he thinks we need to do to "fix" things & make sure he isn't wanting to just sweep this all under the rug.

Ugh. I wish I wouldn't have come down from the high I was feeling from Tuesday! I knew it wouldn't be easy to rebuild and work on the relationship but I was hoping to not have these panicked feelings back so soon!

[hopeOK]

H & I seem to be getting a bit more used to each other again (and not just being friendly neighbors) but I still have anxieties about what he is doing when he isn't around me. I also have anxieties about any time he is on his phone & find myself cutting my eyes sideways to see what he is doing on there (not wanting to overtly look like I am always checking on what he is doing).

I wonder what it takes to feel safe in a relationship? When we were working on the affair recovery before & had been through all the counseling, I felt a bit better... I felt pretty certain he was not actively in contact w/ the OW but I still had hard feelings to work through in regards to the affair. And I worried that another one would start up w/o me realizing it.

Now, I don't even know if he has totally cut off communication again w/ the OW... I want to ask & do intend to but I am waiting for a good opportunity. I still feel it is a bit too soon to get into much heavy relationship talk. And maybe I am somewhat hoping he will initiate it? Or he'll just come out & tell me that he has ended contact w/ her or something? I dunno. But if he doesn't, I will as soon as an opening presents itself. But not only the OW, we also need to talk about rebuilding the trust on both sides... I know I damaged his trust & he has his own resentments to work through.

So figuring out how to navigate this all on our own will be quite challenging, I think. I also wonder what he is thinking about all this. Yesterday when we were getting off the phone before we hung up he said, "I love you." I was a bit surprised because even when we were working on the relationship before, he would sometimes say this but mostly he would say, "love you guys" throwing me & the kids all together in one group. So not sure what to think of that. The skeptical side of me says- he is ensuring I stick around & doing/saying what he knows will work. But the hopeful side thinks that maybe he hasn't strayed too far from me during his past 6 week struggle through anger.

[CaliGuy]

HOPE

Not to set you off on another tail spin ... but reading your sitch the red flag for me was how much he put on what you shared/what he discovered, in a way validating and getting himself off the hook for the A. I am not saying stalk his every move ... because A or no A ... you still need to DB this to the letter IMHO.

My advice for you .. A or no A , I know it matters but in the big picture it doesn't. If you detach, 180, GAL you will know soon enough where your H is.... but for now, get out of his head, stop wasting energy on what he is doing, what he is thinking, who he is talking to .... turn the H H H into you you you because YOU can start to control YOU, not H ... you can become stronger and grow if you look in the mirror and think "How can I be better today?" rather than look H's direction and get pissy when he is not doing what you would hope for .... hence NO EXPECTATIONS that you will see tossed around here often.

Hope, get out of the house, out of your H's head ... get out of your comfort zone and go do something fun ... tell no one ... just take some time and live a little this weekend ... roller skate down a hill ... heck do a cartwheel in the middle of a parking lot ... just something you do for a rush FOR YOU.

[hopeOK]

Thanks, Cali... I appreciate your perspective. I have definitely thought about what you said- that this whole deal was to detract from what he did. But in seeing him go through all the emotions related to what I nearly accused him of doing, I know it has been a major thing for him. He has been more mad about it than I have ever seen him in our 14 years and he has cried about it when we have talked about it (nearly every time) & I have never ever seen him cry prior to this year. Never. He is not a crier and definitely not in front of anyone. So I do know the emotional trauma of what I said was there.

I do think he was tiring of how I was sometimes handling the affair. I would make sarcastic comments or make jabs at him related to the affair. I did have times of making healthy decisions on how I processed everything but I wasn't always so good. So I understand that I was not always making good choices in how I brought my fears or sadness to him.

As far as the GAL, 180, detach... How much of this do you continue doing when both parties want to work on the relationship? I think I need to do something different as I think about all this stuff far too much but if we are working on our marriage, actively, both of us, the last thing I want to do is go out & do lots of stuff outside the home as this is what resulted in his affair in the first place- me withdrawing & finding fun things to do on my own. I am it saying I want to become a recluse & never go anywhere... But now that he wants to fix things, I do not want to go back to my old ways.

As far as 180... It is hard for me to figure this one out. 180 from when? We have been in various stages of our relationship.... From before affair, to recovering from affair, to seriously contemplating divorce (for him it the hurtful thing I said & for me it was all the things he was doing to hurt me in his anger), to now wanting to fix things. We both agree that things were going pretty well before he read what he read (with the exception of my unhealthy ways of dealing w/ the affair) & that was when we were putting all the focus on getting closer & building a better marriage.

I reread parts of the book just now, especially the infidelity chapter & no where in that chapter does she say to GAL... She says to do more things together & build the relationship back. She says to talk about the affair but spend time together not talking about it at all. She definitely says also to look at what caused the affair (ours was me withdrawing due to him being so critical) & address that.

So while I get the GAL, 180, & detaching for the person who has the spouse that isn't wanting to work on the marriage... But at this point, finally, I think my h wants to & has started to make changes to be transparent.

[Starsky309]

I reread parts of the book just now, especially the infidelity chapter & no where in that chapter does she say to GAL... She says to do more things together & build the relationship back. She says to talk about the affair but spend time together not talking about it at all. She definitely says also to look at what caused the affair (ours was me withdrawing due to him being so critical) & address that.

I have two challenges with Michele's otherwise excellent books when it comes to infidelity. One is that there's only ONE CHAPTER devoted to it, contrasted with the anecdotal evidence on her own forum that would indicate it's present in well over half of the situations presented. And two, that the chapter deals almost entirely from the perspective of a FORMERLY wayward spouse, not a CURRENTLY wayward one. It's mostly about repairing the marriage and rebuilding trust after the wayward spouse has agreed to end their affair. Nothing really at all in there about how to deal with ongoing, secretive, or openly-unrepentant infidelity.

I hear she's writing a new book devoted almost entirely to infidelity. I hope she will clear up some of this, and I look forward to reading it.


Starsky

[hopeOK]

I reread parts of the book just now, especially the infidelity chapter & no where in that chapter does she say to GAL... She says to do more things together & build the relationship back. She says to talk about the affair but spend time together not talking about it at all. She definitely says also to look at what caused the affair (ours was me withdrawing due to him being so critical) & address that.

I have two challenges with Michele's otherwise excellent books when it comes to infidelity. One is that there's only ONE CHAPTER devoted to it, contrasted with the anecdotal evidence on her own forum that would indicate it's present in well over half of the situations presented. And two, that the chapter deals almost entirely from the perspective of a FORMERLY wayward spouse, not a CURRENTLY wayward one. It's mostly about repairing the marriage and rebuilding trust after the wayward spouse has agreed to end their affair. Nothing really at all in there about how to deal with ongoing, secretive, or openly-unrepentant infidelity.

I hear she's writing a new book devoted almost entirely to infidelity. I hope she will clear up some of this, and I look forward to reading it.


Starsky

I would be interested in reading this as well. I am now not sure what to do since my H has made the efforts for transparency & wants to fix things. But we still have to talk out what that entails. I was hoping to do that when we had a bit more good feelings between us... Like during or after vacation but my anxieties has me questioning what to do. For example, today- texted at 4:03p to ask a question that I needed an answer from him on (non- relationship item). No response. Call him at 4:10 b/c there is a time constraint. No answer. Now it is 4:33p & still no response. Maybe he will say he was tied up in something at work or didn't hear his phone... Possible. But the fact that 3:30-4:30p was the typical time for his interactions has me feeling very anxious about his lack of response. Not sure whether to say I am worried when I do not hear anything from him (as we learned in our counseling to do) or if I just try to get over it and act like I do my care about his lack of response.

[hopeOK]

Ok, so maybe detaching is a good idea now. I messed up again in how I asked why h didn't answer my call. I cannot seem to calm myself down enough to not make more of a mess of things. Holy cow. What is it going to take to get to the point where I can respond appropriately or not say anything at all? I did manage to my say anything about the receipt... But couldn't manage to ask about the no response w/o sounding accusatory.