seperated 4 months, its now 9 months, oh and om

[help67]

Sandi, if your there, what do you think about what my coach says, should I try to keep and build on this friendship. Its good for my d, and when my ww wakes up, we will have that to build on or does it hurt my chances.

First thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536588#Post2536588

[help67]

As I read a lot of peoples stories, there seems to be a lot of angry things said to the lbs. My ww has not said a lot of angry things to me, I have not done that to her either. What could be a reason for that, is she so past the anger that we are done. If so why isnt seperation agreement even done yet, I dont know for sure, but I do believe she is confused about us. Very soon I will stop worrying about her, after we talk I will let it all go, and trust like I have never done before that all will be ok with me.

[Vanilla]

Help

I think Sandi and your coach may be stating the same things. It is the approach that's different and the words. But the intention is the same.

That is to build you and get you to concentrate on you.

Your coach is very practical and has the benefit of your tone and aspect as well. It's wisdom for you.

Whatever WW does is her actions and thoughts, please don't mind read it won't help. She could be doing what she is doing for many many reasons. Concentrate on healing you, if Coach says a recommended action then I would follow that.
V

[t33]

Same deal for me. W and I rarely fight/fought. Biggest blow up we had was when I caught W and OM together. Other than that, always civil but sometimes withdrawn. For her, she says the love just went away. Of course I don't believe that. We just didn't work on the relationship and then when the OM came into the picture and she became WW she's rewritten history and can't see past where she is at. I feel my W is confused as well - I suppose that's a good thing. Our W's need to figure it out. We need to DB to put them into a place where their confusion becomes clarity. Easier said than done.

[help67]

I get the concentrate on me part, and ww could be doing things for many reasons, so I know I cant figure out why.

But what to do as far as interacting with ww is where they differed, and I think when I figure out how to do so I will move more towards me. Sandi thought I should pull back, and only be coparents with ww. My coach thought I should continue building on the friendship we have built in the last 3 months.

My ww believes I will shut down now, and will think that I am going back to my bad behavior, so building on the friendship will be a 180. However, sandi thought she needs to feel like she lost me which wont happen if we are friends.

I want to do whichever helps my chances at being together again, and if I feel I am doing so, it will make it easier for me to detach, and work only on me, and whatver happens, happens.

[t33]

I have the exact same struggle. DB Coach suggests being a friend while lovingly detaching. At times it feels like it's working, and then there is a rebound of her pulling farther away. I also am starting to feel like she's abusing me for money while stringing me along, because, why not - she can. I don't want a best friend. I want a wife who is my best friend.

There is no loss for my W at the moment, and it doesn't seem like there will be real progress until there is. It is hard to find that balance. I wish you luck in finding the balance that works.

[Vanilla]

When we DB we do this for ourselves not to 'charm' our partners. In essence DB is about doing what works for us.

We let go of the consequences of what we do, because what we do is for our own comfort and development. Otherwise the effect is temporary and in the medium term can never be maintained so it reverses and we end up in a worse position than when we started.

So whatever you do, warmth, openess or NC this is for you, if you examine Joe and Pigpen sitch both have grown so much that the opportunities for a new style M is much improved.

Engaging in any tactic because it may work in the short term but longer term this won't improve you. In my view this is for you to improve you. The improvements on yourself are designed to help you.

The two strategies are designed for the same result, improvement in you. If you follow coach strategy first and it is not effective then that does not preclude you from NC Ada 180. But I would not think you can do them effectively NC then contact ie coach strategy last. If you do you do this for you with no expectations. Again I believe both have the same core working on yourself.

T your sitch is rather different and the suggestion is the same do what you do for you.

Peace and work on you. Help, I will keep in touch with you.

V

[shotgun]

Hang in there help67. There is a lot written here and in DB and DR about time being your friend. It is also easier to look at someone else situation with clarity than it is your own so maybe try to read some other threads. Vanilla gives great advice and by reading your topic I find help for my own situation and can see things you are doing that I need to do differently also. Stay focused on d12 and become the world's greatest father!

[help67]

Thanks V,

I don't know what I am doing anymore. I prayed last night for the pain to end, even if it meant not waking up. I had two dreams, and I gather from them that I dont want to give up, on myself or my m.
I had a good conversation with my d last night about us communicating and she said I was the best.
What is next for me now, staying friends with ww or nc, I dont know. I have done things for the wrong reasons this whole time, my w probably feels some of that. I dont want to live in fear anymore. I want to live, I know that, but this is my darkest hour.
There was something real about being friends with my w these last few months, it wasnt all about doing it to win her back. I dont know if it was real for her, and now that I know about the om, I am more confused and the pain is unbearable.

[help67]

Thanks,

I have read numerous threads, and can see those more clearly than my own. I used to be able to think logically, but for 9 months its been nothing but emotions, emotions that have been buried for a long time. I finally understand the pain I caused my w.
I have come to understand now how much stronger women are than men, they are the true warriors. Its 9 months, I am sober, and I am still here so maybe I am not as weak as I feel.

[t33]

I don't know what I am doing anymore. I prayed last night for the pain to end, even if it meant not waking up. I had two dreams, and I gather from them that I dont want to give up, on myself or my m.
I had a good conversation with my d last night about us communicating and she said I was the best.
What is next for me now, staying friends with ww or nc, I dont know. I have done things for the wrong reasons this whole time, my w probably feels some of that. I dont want to live in fear anymore. I want to live, I know that, but this is my darkest hour.

Hang in there help67. I really feel where you're coming from. I get so lost in what I'm doing. I need to constantly rebalance. As bad as everything is, I don't want to give up. I struggle because it feels like that's what I'm showing based on the DB techniques, but if it works, I'll go there.

This is our darkest hour and I'm struggling to accept that things will get worse, much worse, before they get better. I don't see a light yet. But it has to be there.

There was something real about being friends with my w these last few months, it wasnt all about doing it to win her back. I dont know if it was real for her, and now that I know about the om, I am more confused and the pain is unbearable.

This is so difficult. I'm in the same boat. sandi2 has pointed out that this is just a way for her to cake eat. Can't have it both ways, and they'll continue to use and abuse while we let them because they get it all while we suffer. sandi2 told me that she's not my friend right now. All I want is my friend and wife back. But if pretending to be friends is a suckers game - we have to make things real to get back to a good place.

[help67]

One thing my w and I were bad at was communication, more my fault. So these last 9 months my communication has been all over the place, trying to get her to r, shutting down, and now friends. I dont think I can go back to shutting down. I dont know how long ea is going on, if and when it became pa. I dont know if she started out as a was or a ww.
My ww hasnt mentioned d or the seperation agreement in eleven weeks, but this could be because it benefits her at this point not to, she will have to pay me support.
We dont talk about serious things as far as d as far as how she is dealing.
The whole thing feels like tip-toeing in hell. I think I have to open up to her in some way. My sitch is the worst one as far as the ones I read. I feel like we could be on Dr. Phil at this point.
Time is my gift, for me to work on me, I get that. Is it in anyway a good sign that we have not been signed any paperwork yet even though it seemed like w wanted it done.
Do what works. I think the friend thing brought us closer, and when I filled out budget sheet 11 weeks ago she sees that I am not resisting the seperation agreement anymore. When she told me about om, I told her I want her to be happy, she said that was sweet.
So its 5 days since she told me about om, and we only emailed once about d camp info. She thinks I will avoid her now, she is not emailing me like she did before with silly, funny things. I have to communicate to her soon. Something has to give.

[sandi2]

Sandi, if your there, what do you think about what my coach says, should I try to keep and build on this friendship. Its good for my d, and when my ww wakes up, we will have that to build on or does it hurt my chances.

If this a Divorce Busting Coach that gave you this advice, I will respectfully disagree and bow out of your thread. Even if I don't agree, I will not publicly argue about it, b/c in earlier posts you got things that had been said mixed/confused. So, I trust the coach has all the facts and will lead you forward.

[shotgun]

You are not weak help67. God will give you strength to face the future as a father and a man. It is through your pain that you will find peace. The best thing about your darkest hour is the morning that will come with fresh air and new daylight. You are loved by your daughter and family and probably your wife. Live with the knowledge that you are becoming a new and better man in whom many will find joy!

[Vanilla]

Help,

You really need to follow your coach, you are paying him to advise you. The rest of us are peer to peer support for you.

Whatever path you decide, discuss it here and you have our views.


V

[help67]

So as my coach said, she thought I should tell my ww how much she hurt me when she told me about om last week, and that I believe and trust in her to do what is right. My coach thinks we should continue to build on the friendship we have built these last few months, she thinks it is also best for my d. I should also tell her how this was a wake up call for me, and that these changes are for me and my d regardless of the outcome for us. I mistakenly told her the changes were for me months ago, I have made many mistakes.
I dont know how long she is with om, if it is a pa of just ea. The sitch is crazy, om is in open marriage, my ww, om, d all take a tkd class together. They all hang with a group of friends and do other things together. I think my w feels accepted for who she is, but I feel she is being used, I know I made her feel that way too.
I guess I can start like this, and if I cant do it, I can then let her know at that point. I wish om was just a random guy, but they were friends first. Om is in open marriage, he is using my w, and I dont know if she cares or what, he fulfilks her deep emotional connection she wanted from me.

[help67]

V,

I just thought of something. I dont know when the affair started, as they were just friends to start. My w might have been a ww from the beginning or she may have been a was and then the affair started after she left, I think this may be important to know, do I ask her about a timeline somehow.
If she was wayward to start with, I think I should follow sandi, but if she started as a was and then became involved then I would follow coach advise.

[Joe46]

I am not sure if I should chime in here or not. I will be careful what I say. Help, as hard as this is, you are going to have to start taking the focus off your WW. I know it is hard. I read your posts and there is alot in there about the affair. What are you really going to get out of knowing a timeline. Does it matter? You can get something from listening to both your coach and sandi. You will get different views on things here sometimes. I was told to take what you can and use what is best for your situation.

[Vanilla]

Help

WW could have had her A 10 years ago or ten minutes ago. Joe is right, there is no 100% guaranteed strategy.

If you are not confident about what to do and feel conflicted then you are paying your coach, go back and discuss that with your coach.

At the moment you are undecided about what to do, discuss the two strategies and keep in your pocket the option of doing nothing.

Open the dialogue with your DB coach.

V

[help67]

I will discuss with coach on how to proceed. I have not had contact with ww since she told me about om 6 days ago other than one email regarding d. We had some contact almost every day for prior 3 months, but I didnt know about om.
I went to IC today, he feels I need to find whats ok with me and communicate that to my w, I am a mess. I dont know how people on here db so well, I cant seem to get out of my own way.
I am sober 9 months, and had some good conversations with d about our relationship and how I have acted, and how I am trying to change. I have to give myself credit for that. I like that and other behavioral changes I have made, but I am just scared.

[help67]

Your right about thinking about ww too much and not me, but I am doing some good things. We were together so long, I have so much I never dealt with, and have lived in fear so long that it will take time. I still need her to some degree, but I know there is something inside of me that just wants her and so I dont want to give up. I need to find me, not need her anymore, and time will tell the rest.
So how do I best do this is where I am at, how to just work on me, but not give up on us.

[Vanilla]

Help

We all begin by being confused. You can stand for your M and yourself at the same time, you can stay strong on that. And it's a good thing to want to rebuild your R with your W, to build a new M and work with DB to do that.

Sweetheart, you have an extra complication, your addiction.

If you think slow then reduce that speed by 4 for those in recovery for addictions. That is a very good thing in my book.

Know this Help, it is very brave to acknowledge your confusion and to work on these fronts. It's hard work.

My hat off to you. You are doing ok, it's part of the process, none of this is easy, in a few months you will be detached and seeing the new posters in their confusion. It seems to me, you are bang on schedule. It would cause me concern if you 'got it' because that would comeback to bite you later.

Peace

V

[help67]

You can stand for your M and yourself at the same time, you can stay strong on that. And it's a good thing to want to rebuild your R with your W, to build a new M and work with DB to do that.

It is a good thing to want to rebuild R with my W, sometimes that simple sentiment gets lost during this craziness that is my life now. My w parents divorced when she was 12 and spiraled out of control for the next 35 yrs and they never healed themselves. They were bitter, addicted, resentful people and her father still is. That wont be me, it never was the real me.

Thank you for your kind words V, it helps more than you can ever know as I feel like I am hanging on a thread.

PEACE to you

[PigPen]

Hang tough Help. You've accomplished something already that SO many people in our situation struggle with - simply staying sober. That's huge. Extremely huge. On the days when you really think you're hanging on by a thread - remember that.

That one decision will do more to heal your life than anything that happens with your W. Make the decision that it's for life too. No matter what. Come hell or high water.

You're doing a great job, and asking all of the right questions here. You also have the amazing example set by your in laws of how not to do this. I had the same. Both divorced for over 25 years, both still single, both still fighting with each other at each family gathering. Amazing. Swallow the poison in hopes that it hurts your mate.

One of the hardest aspects to grasp of DB'ing is that standing for your M and the new R often times is accomplished by really letting it go. (mind explodes!) But it's true.

Keep up the good work, V is right, you're doing well and should give yourself credit.

PP

[Vanilla]

Wonderful post PP.

V

[Vanilla]

Help

I will stay around to hear what you have to say, your sobriety is very key to this recovery of yours and I know how tough that is.

I understand you want it complete and settled. For your sake, this will take time.

As Cadet says, you have it, ironically whilst your WW has an A with scuzzy OM she is giving you time.

Use that time to heal, you are doing well, please hold that in your heart.

V

[help67]

The actual act of drinking repulses me and so I am not worried about that right now, I wanted to quit for so long. Dealing with the demons I hid by drinking, all the hurt I caused myself and my beautiful wife all these years is another story.
I like the changes I am making about myself, it is hard and will take time. Not being able to be doing this with my w is tearing me apart.
My w and I never communicated well, and something will have to be said soon. We have to much contact because of my d, although I have avoided my w this week. She thinks I am hiding, but I am dying to open up to her. I want her somehow to know that I finally realize the hurt she felt. Talking to IC is not the same as if I had my w to talk to still.
I am still here, but I cant live like this, I hope things improve. I have to let my w go, but I dont know the best way to do it.

[Vanilla]

My lovely things will improve.

Through your DB the communications will improve.

You will learn to manage you, and all of your communication will improve, if you keep withDB, I absolutely believe that is possible for you.

Breathe easy, relax, keep in mind this takes time and you have it. You are becoming, it's going to be ok if you tread your path.

Once that washing machine mind stops spinning it will be easier.

Breathe.........

V

[help67]

Thanks v,

I read your thread on abuse, I did earlier in my sitch but I think I am understanding it better. I was probably a situational abuser, either way my behavior was awful. Its not me deep inside, maybe the drinking played a part, I also could have been in a MLC for a long time (drinking and mlc seem similar). I am not blaming my w for anything, but certainly my behavior cycled until she put an end to it by leaving. It was the boundary that finally woke me up. Her issues made it hard for her to set boundaries and so things got progressively worse, again not blaming her for that. I own this.
My w made the analogy of when Charlie Brown holds the football for Lucy, but keeps pulling it away when she goes to kick it. She said I would be who she thought I was (kind ,caring ,present) etc. but then would revert to my bad behavior.
Reading about it made me a little calmer as I think I am truly working on those issues. I wanted to for so long, but was fearful, fear is how I lived most of my life.
So it seems that I have been given a second chance on life, maybe not with my w, but I have not given up on that yet. The real me is kind, caring, fun, and flawed. I write this after meditating and I think it gave me some clarity.
I am going to follow my db coach advice and build this friendship with my w, if its all I have I will make it amazing for us and my d, and who knows what the future holds, she fell in love with this person once.

[Vanilla]

If you were creating situational abuse in your life the answer is the easiest of all change the situation!

I love your Charlie Brown and Lucie analogy so apt and appropriate.

You have identified that your behaviour isn't a personality problem which is deep rooted. You will feel much calmer now you have identified what you need to do. I am not saying the path is easy, of course not. It is very uphill.

It is like seeing spots on your leg, is it chicken pox (which will pass), gangene (so fatal) or merely a bruise. Once you know it's chicken pox, you know the treatment.

Your W fell in love with you once and together you have a special D. Walking your path and knowing who you are in sobriety will make your life easier and calmer.

Gently breathe the cool mountain air and rest on your journey, you have crossed a major obstacle. You have a plan.

Peace and rest

V

[help67]

I spoke with my w today, told her how hurt I was about om, that I doing the work for me and d regardless of outcome for us.
She said she told me about om so I wouldnt find out elsewhere, and so I dont wait for her. She said she felt like these last 3 months I have been waiting for her, trying to charm her, and maybe not doing what I need for myself and she was right, I didnt tell her she was right. She is intuitive, smart, and knows me.
Good things she told me was that she sees more clarity in me and that I seem sober, not abstinent. She also said that we are on square one, so maybe we develop something and get to further squares down the line.
I need to work hard on myself, gal, stop trying to charm her and behave like I would being on square one. I will build the friendship, but maintain some distance, and be mysterious. I will become someone only a fool would leave.

[help67]

Its hard to figure out, but I think my w is a WAS because of how unhappy she was, and I made every mistake in the pursuing book for 9 months. Maybe her dating this guy is a way for her to send me a message, maybe she is just having fun, who knows. I do think, however, our m is over and I need to let that go. I will not give up on us, I want us to start over. I will put the focus on me now.

[help67]

Hi V,
so I read some other threads regarding building friendship with ww. My sitch seems different in that my w left because she wasn't happy, planned on d all along. She is now dating because it is over for us. So if I went nc, it wouldn't draw her back. I think the only way for us to be together is if its as if we never knew each other, and start over. I gal, work on myself, date and don't pursue my w in any way including worrying weather we are building a friendship. Just be friendly to her.
I have a lot of work to do on myself and that is going to have to be my focus anyway if I am going to have any life.

[help67]

I rambled a lot today, focused on w and om. There is no going back for me, so it's time to heal myself and become whole. This is something women are better at I gather. So many layers to strip away, so much to forgive myself for. So much to unlearn.
These nine months feel like a dream still. Maybe it was, I don't know what is real at this point. I don't know where to begin, maybe I have, I need to be kinder to myself, I am not so bad.

[Vanilla]

Help

Some important realisations in your last two posts. I have always commented on your bravery and ability to take responsibility for yourself and who you are and what you are going to become. Ramble on, this is the place to do it.

Sobriety isn't easy, it's a hard path and a lifelong one. Management is key.

You seem to be saying that your W is a WAW and wasn't wayward. She is dating after you parted. That means she perceives her new R as a bf not an OM. This is similar to LRT. It is probably helpful if you refer to your W as a WAW. Frankly WAW sitches are much more hopeful than any others. Waywardness is a very difficult stance for the LBS. you have made some very smart insights about your WAW and friendliness (not friendship) is the way to go. We want Help back in the va ca boom box not the friend box. Expect this to take time, your sitch went south slowly and you will recover slowly.

Your WAW is saying you are in position 1, that is what RD refers to as a star. There is much to do in becoming whole and healing. Actually male LBS are very good at this and there are many remarkable posters. You might like to look at Joes thread or Pigpen, both have healed remarkably.

So to begin, I am sure other posters will contribute.

Can you outline your goals for this healing?

Can we convert 'I am not so bad' into ten positive statements about Help?

Let me start:

I have been sober for...........
I have plans to heal........
I have accepted responsibility for........
I am loving/caring/ generous etc etc


How can you be kinder to yourself?

I think that should kick start some thinking, if you feel there are better questions or your IC can give you more guidance then this gives you some thinking space. I am so pleased to see you begin your journey to grow you.

Peace

V

[help67]

Thanks v,

First, what does it exactly mean do be in position 1, being a star.

I am going to work on what goals i want to achieve. Generaly, I know I want to stay sober, I want to be a better father, friend. I want to make meditation a daily part of my life. I will have to sit down this week and really get a clear,concise outline. I think I will discuss it in IC this week.

10 statements:

I have been sober for 9+ months
I have plans to heal using IC, meditation, reading self help books, applying what I learn to my daily life
I have accepted responsibility for the pain I have caused myself, and my famiily
I am caring, considerate, funny, kind
I am becoming a better father to my daughter, and will continue
I am loving, and I deserve to be loved
I have been able to make it through the roughest 9 months of my life
I am eager to learn
I am capable of achieving what I set out to achieve
I am learning how to forgive

[Vanilla]

RD always says a star is something in the dark sky that starts to shine, it is a small far away glimmer of hope.

Your WAW has acknowledged hope for you with a tiny star, she has noticed change. Each time a positive there is a new star, we hope to light up the dark night sky with stars.

I really like the positive statements if you can print them and meditate on each one, you have 10 days before you need to repeat one. This seems delicious to me.

Do post about the IC, I will be fascinated to hear how that goes.


What a lovely thing for you to do to meditate on change.

Can we be a little more specific on your goals, daily meditation is clear, for 10 mins each day? Sobriety is one day at a time so we only need a goal for today.

With the other goals when do you achieve the goal,? What will it look like, sound like and feel like when you have achieved the goal?

Peace

V

[Vanilla]

Here is the link to the goal thread I found most useful. There are two other threads both are linked in the thread below. Setting my goals was one of my first actions and I still keep my goals. One recent one to buy my own office for my business seemed like a dream but here I am with my office!

Goal thread

V

[help67]

Hi v,

Hope your day was better today.

I read a lot about abuse, and have finally realized I was none to nice a lot of the time to my waw, it took me a while to fully understand. I have apologized to her, but not nearly good enough or the right way. I have come to terms with what I did, realize I am solely responsible, and am going to do everything I can to change, and make amends to my w. My question to you then is now a good time to really apologize the right way.
I have done a lot of good things these 9 months, but realize a lot of what I did was to try to get my w to take notice, and so I am learning. I want to do the right thing regardless of what happens to us.

[Vanilla]

Help By becoming the best you that you can be you are atoning and apologising. most WAS really want this for their spouse, who they see as in crisis.

Actions speak louder than words in the case of sobriety. 9 months is an amazing achievement please see that your sobriety is the biggest gift you can give her.

I made a suggestion to Pigpen if there is an AA (or other support) open meeting and you are collecting a pin, you can give a brief therapy about your thoughts. Apologise publicly to all you harmed and that you are working your path. Nothing unusual there for a therapy. Ask WAW to see you collect the pin. As much to know that Sobriety is a major factor in your life and you are really serious about staying that way. This worked for a GA (gamblers anon) member I know who wanted to attract back his WAW. He also wrapped his pin as a birthday present for his WAW (ahhhhhhh) with a card which said "this is how I feel about you, a gift of my most precious possession" (aaaaaaaaah).

He meant it too, that was 17 years ago, they are still together. No expectations though.

Thank you for your thoughtful and caring support on my thread, I value this so much.

V

[Vanilla]

You ok Help?

V

[help67]

HI V,

Been reading a lot about emotional abuse, hurts so much to know the pain I caused my w. She said she thought I was trying to charm her these last 3 months, and she was right as far as me trying to show her I changed, but a lot of what I wanted to do was just be kind, compassionate toward her.

My w sent an email to me about someone trying to adopt out there cat. She said I know you have been wanting a cat for awhile, we never had one because my w is allergic to them. It hurts to read stuff like that, which says I am not coming back. Maybe one of the many tests I will face. At least the cat was 16 yrs old, so wouldn't live much longer, not like w would be coming back any time to soon anyway.

The other day when we talked, my w told me how she was standing up for herself more, she didn't do that in our m nearly enough. It's good that we are both doing the things we needed to.

[Vanilla]

Just keep being you Help, charm is a lovely attribute as long as it is genuine.

Remember much of what WAW says is testing you and temp checking, just so with the cat.

If you want a cat get one, personally I'd love to internet proxy a meow type feline. It sounds like WAW is growing and changing as are you.

Could be good news too, as realistically would you want your old M back?

Don't you want a brand new start with WAW in a new version of your M?

Treading your own path and growing into a man only a fool would leave seems terrific idea to me.

At this point Help sounds to me like you are doing great.

V

[help67]

Hi V,

Hope everything is good with you.

The charm thing is good, I was generally kind, interested, and loving towards my w these last 3 months because that is who I really am , but I think the expectation of r is what came across to my w , and she thinks I did it to win her over. I realize that and so am going to keep that in mind, but I will still be loving toward her.

Lots of testing & temp checking, she wants to see that I have moved on otherwise if she did come back it would be the same old behavior. She is changing, and in a good way.

I read about it taking a month for every year you were together, and I see why. We were together 27 yrs, married 17, and it took me 9 months just to start to feel comfortable. Things are starting to make more sense to me, I am starting to feel happy with who I am, to be less afraid to be me.

[help67]

Hi V,

Hope your enjoying the weekend.

Yesterday my w had a bad headache due to allergies, she left work early to rest, I did her a favor and dropped d at her place after a dentist apppt. Anyway, I wanted to ask you what you thought of me emailing her asking how she is feeling today, she is taking d to an outdoor music festival and it is hot, humid, and this is not weather my w does well in.
Is this pursuing, or anything else, I generally want to know how she is because I care, but after she said it felt like I was trying to charm her, i dont know if I should.
i read some info about controlling behavior, it was alll about me. Its good to be able to see my issues, and work to change. The control issue seems to affect everything about me, letting go seems cosmic to me, but i guess it will all click soon enough.

[help67]

So I know I failed miserably at temp check, testing for awhile, but I understand it now, and am not bothered by it, I guess that's part of detaching. What I don't understand is why does the was do the temp. check and testing to begin with, do they even know they are doing it.
If someone is truly done with the r, then why would they do the temp checks, testing then.

[dwh15]

I'm confused by the temp check as well, Help. My best guess would be that your W is not necessarily completely over you, whether she realizes it or not. I was getting those for a while from my own WW, but came to realize that in my own sitch, she was using me for financial reasons, and emotional support. She really did want to be best friends, with no interest in a romantic R with me. That was 2 weeks ago, and since then, I have cut off all support and most contact. She seems fine with it, and hasn't really bothered to try and re-establish any sort of communication, but again, it's only been 2 weeks.

Like others have said, it's impossible to mind read, so don't spend too much time worrying about it. Keep doing what's best for you, and don't fall into any traps. Keep oozing that self confidence and your W will notice. It's not over until it's over so if D isn't final or papers haven't even been filed yet, I would say you've got a shot. Hang in there. I'm right there with ya man, just a few months behind.

[Vanilla]

Help

Apologies for not responding sooner. I had my Pollyanna phase going on.

Yes, I think it's perusing, although next time you have admin you can mention it.

Others temp check generally because they like to keep their options option and you represent a resource. I long ago gave up worrying or even pondering why others do what they do. it makes sense to them.

Help, if charm is part of the package you offer to your partners then it's authentic for you, your W has thoughts of her own.

Can we explore the control issue? What were you reading and why did it resonate?

What does control mean to you?

V

[help67]

Hi V,

My control issues come from childhood issues I never really worked on and resolved until now. My family was dysfunctional, my father physically abused me, lots of verbal abuse in entire family. No real communication, lots of fear. I also have abondonment issues, and so in order not to lose my w, I controlled everything and of course this is why I eventually lost her. I have very low self esteem, and never felt worthy of my w love.

I am not this person, but I was to fearful to look inside, and instead buried everything and made myself numb. So now I have dug deep in IC, and am learning to like who I am, the real me. I am kind, caring, empathic, funny, generous, and still learning. I am also working on forgiving, myself included.
My w is similar in her upbringing, but she became the caretaker, and she wasnt good at setting personal boundaries, and so I broke many. She buried a lot to, but somehow stayed away from being resentful. I hope we get to have these deep connections and conversations one day, I know there is still love between us.

I almost wish she would get mad at me, but maybe she isnt because I have changed my behavior. In the last two days she emailed my about our dauhter, but also wished me a good day at work, and to be safe because there was a bad storm coming.
I dont know if her being nice is crumbs to keep me hanging on or something else, I am trying not to mind read though.

[ralphy]

Help,

it's amazing how we hang on those little "crumbs" isn't it? I posted today about what a difference the little greetings and niceties are in texts, etc.

I think what I determined today is that I tend to forget that W is also going through emotional ups and downs, and some days, she may feel like being nice, and other days not.

She may or may not be thinking about it the same way we are, and the fact that I am hurt when she doesn't do it, and I feel better by something as simple as a good morning or a thank you or a hello shows that I'm not truly emotionally detached yet.

[Vanilla]

Help

Abuse is very tough for adults, let alone for children. Frankly, I want to just wrap the young version of Help with great care and go punch the abusers, I have specific unpleasant thoughts about it........

It's what dear Wonka calls FOO (family of origin issues).

How does your low self esteem show itself, is it the same pattern every time?

Are there specific triggers for you with W.

You can tell me if you need privacy on this, it's OK.

Healing those issues and childhood trauma is one of the most important things you can do for you. Frankly I am not surprised about the control issue considering the issues you mentioned. However I do think your W lack of boundaries is her issue to deal, just as my lack of boundaries was mine. Dealing with soft boundaries makes having a rough and tumble resilient R is very difficult. How can you know when things aren't right if there are no boundaries?

Just let W responses go..... 'Whatever'. Crumbs or not, you don't have to nibble.

[Prowl]

Help,

It's amazing how close are stories are. I've been married 18 years, we have 6 children, but I too was verbally and emotionally abusive and my WW has found comfort in the arms of another man that is providing her with all her emotional needs. I'm just sick about it all.. I feel for you. I don't know how you can handle seeing the OM. My W told me today that I will never be allowed to speak to or approach her OM. She defends him.. Over her husband?! It's the most painful thing in the world...

I unfortunately am not doing well with any sort of 180... I was good for about a week and then I crumbled. I am not strong. So I admire your strength in being able to make your life better and change around your behavior.

I will be following your story more closely now. Good luck to you friend and God bless you.

[help67]

One way my self esteem issue showed up was when things would be going good, I would sabotage any chance at success, deep down not thinking I deserved it. I would stop drinking, really wanting to quit, but would wind up going back after some time. In school I could have straight A's and not show up for a final exam. I would be fearful to try things I wanted to. In my m, it would be good for some time and I would sabotage that, not even knowing it.

The dynamic of this and no my w not good with her boundaries made it easy to be in a bad cycle. I thought about triggers, but I believe it was the lack of boundaries that was my w biggest contribution.

My w family was worse than mine, they d when she was 12 yrs old, my d just turned 13 yrs old. My w said that the cycle was continuing, meaning she had to leave because of my behaviors, her father was and still is addicted to many things. It was the one time since bd that I got mad at my w, saying I was not her father, that I will choose my family, and do whatever I have to, and I believe I am. My w is working on boundaries and not taking behavior she doesnt deserve anymore.

9 1/2 months sober today, and I love that. I am playing guitar again, something I always wanted to be good at, but kept quitting. Learning how to meditate, reading a lot of self-help, buddhism books, relating to my d better, love IC and my therapist is great. These things are all real for me, and theres more good thing to come.

I read something today that applys very much to my old thinking, it was STOP HOPING FOR A BETTER PAST.

[help67]

Hi prowl,

I have followed your sitch, and have felt the same intense pain that you have, there were days i didn't think i would make it. I came to realize the pain was not about losing my w as it was as much about all the pain I caused my family, myself included.

I disagree with your assesment of yourself, you have admitted to the problems you have, the abusive behavior and that takes a strong person. Most people never come to that point and wind up in another bad marriage, second marriages are more likely to fail for that reason.

I dont remember reading if you are in IC, but it has helped me tremendously. Read as much as you can, you will find out there are a lot of people just like us, and if you do the work things will improve for you, just be patient and kind to yourself.

The om thing is tough, but the less energy you put into thinking about it, the better chance of it failing sooner. Put that energy into working on yourself and loving your children, and things will improve.

[Vanilla]

Help really terrific post.

Prowl are you ok?

V

[help67]

Hi V,

Thanks. I wanted to let you know that the last couple of posts between you and Fogg were very helpful, and pertinent to my life.

[Vanilla]

I am going to ask you a question, no need to answer if you aren't ready.

Exactly what about the post on Foggs thread resonated for you?

Is there something to explore in your own sitch, if so is that something you would like to do? Are you ready for that, only you would know. I am willing to listen.

V

[Fogg]

help, just read up on your threads. Glad V's questions to me in my thread are helping you also. Its rough to look deep inside to answer certain questions about ourselves but I think its very worth it to discover who we really are, and who we are meant to be.

You were able to tell W about how hurt you were, with coaches advice. You are also building that friendship with her even when shes in the A. My path so far has been a bit different with how angry she was in the beginning. I had to set boundaries to gain respect back but at this point I think were going in a similiar direction. Friendly encounters and at some point in the very near future I will likely be telling W( from a place of strength) that her actions since BD have hurt me. Coach mentioned something very similiar toward the end of our first session but It may be more about what shes doing to herself and not to me.

Anyway, just wanted to say you're not alone. This is a very difficult experience but one in which has allowed many of us to change in ways we never would have otherwise. No matter what happens the work you put in now will benefit your life int he future.

[help67]

Hi V,


One thing was the fear of being unlovable or that you don't love yourself, and that is just it, I have not learned to love myself, quite the opposite. If I can't love myself, then I am not allowing other people to love me, and I can't love other people. I am learning to love myself, and there is so much to learn, and it will take time.
It was hard for me to talk to people, make eye contact, keep a conversation going, meet new people, things like that. I am reading a lot about Buddhism, and it feels like it was the something really missing in my life, I have never been into any religion because the dogma always turned me off.
So I am doing things like smiling more, looking at the things I do have and being grateful for them, connecting more with people, coming from a place of love, compassion for myself and others. It is a long process to change, but I am doing it. I don't find myself dwelling in my past so much as far as what i have done to myself, but when it comes to my wife, all I want to do is tell her how sorry I am, and let her know that for the first time I truly get it. I still very much hope that day comes and its because she wants to be with me too.
I am reading the Art of Happiness, and that is what i want to be, happy.

[Vanilla]

If you were deep into Foggs post you will realise that not loving yourself isn't an action, it's a thought. I am not loveable and for some reason I need others to love me before I do the work to love myself.

That thought leads to self sabotage (behaviour) and it isn't useful.

The 'cavern' mentioned in within us.

Actually loving yourself can change in an instant if you want it. It's a thought which has become a belief, I believe I am unloveable. Change that belief and you give yourself permission. The other things you mention are shyness not love. The release and giving up alcohol are loving things to do, the disease of alcoholism doesn't define you. You are not what you think or do, that is conditional, if you are in reverie sometimes that isn't self love, and if you are down that's not self hate. You are worth loving just because of your humanity, it is enough to be, we are human beings not human doings. You are part of love by merely existing and living, I sense you are on the side of the Angels (even if not one yourself ) that is enough.

There is also another belief in your post that if I am not loved then I can't love. It's a generalisation and some locked thinking that can be shaken free very easily. A quid pro quo that holds no water at all. Like saying grass is green, all green things are grass. None of it is true, some grass is yellow and there are many other green objects. Try this instead: I love my daughter and she loves me. I am loveable because I am loved. How can I deny myself the capacity to love when I need this in my life so as not to deny others.

This belief would have started young but it isn't something you have a duty to hang onto. Beliefs change with realisations of inconsistencies, and this is one, like a chain when one link is cut the ball falls free. You don't have to break every link to free that ball from the ankle chain.

If any one belief breaks this changes. I am convinced this isn't fear it's more cerebral, a thought or a belief that's causing it.

So I challenged Foggs belief and he discovered that he loved his children and they love him. So where is the unloveable and unloving Fogg? If you have love with just one person then the whole fallacy disintegrates. (Black swan). Children are the ideal challenge to make this belief go poof! If you can spot that for Fogg then draw the parallel for yourself. You are worthy of your daughter's love (which is her choice not yours) thus it's enough and if you love your daughter, the irrational belief will not hold. You won't reject the gift of love from your D, but you do reject your love for yourself, you only think you reject your own love. But like the elephant in the room, Help is loved we just proved that and only Help cant see the elephant. All of this thinking is derived from Socrates so it's well established, you could try googling Albert Ellis and his rationality, the art of happiness has some roots there.

So I think for you Help, that cavern isn't empty of emotion, it's just blocked because a big stone covers the entry, roll it away and all will start to clear. It truly isn't a long process to change, thoughts change quickly.

Firstly give yourself permission to love and be loved and to be loveable. Happiness is about becoming as things change this will happen. It seems to me Help has enormous love and care in his life and all he needs to do is accept that. Then the emotions will unblock and below that the feelings and below that the physiology will change. All because you unblocked.

It sounds easy because that part is easy, what isn't easy is demonstrating that love. Much harder to do, but by standing for your M and yourself, you are loving yourself already. I observe that the thought and belief are stopping you observing that.

It is a different issue to Foggs but the conseqence is the same. If you said V I am afraid to show the love then that takes strategy. That's a how question instead of where question.

Calmly ask have I loved in my life? Am I taking W loss as a generalisation. Moving from the current situation to every situation?

You have done well Help, and I would really like you to sit and just be with all the overwhelm gone, and the love pouring into the cavern. This love is unlimited. I project that to you over the miles. It will come easily to you, I know it will.

V

[help67]

Thanks V,

The love I have for my daughter has been amazing to me, and as bad as these last 9 months have been, it has made me a better father. I do know that my d loves me very much. My w has always loved me, and I realize that she still does, and I still love her, I just have to show it differently now like standing for my m.
You said if your afraid to show the love that takes strategy. One thing I said to my w at the beginning of the separation was just that, I was afraid, but I didn't know why. I told her that there were times she would be getting dressed for work and I would be lying in bed watching her, and I wanted to tell her how beautiful she was, but I couldn't. I had no problem doing the opposite, being critical.
I have been feeling better these last few days as if I am actually getting somewhere good. I do have a lot of love, its just such a big boulder blocking it, but with help from people like you it will be moved.

[Sotto]

Hi Help, some good introspection here. And sorry if you already answered this question - I haven't read further back.

What's the boulder my friend?

[help67]

Hi Toots

The boulder is how I think about deserving love, and I need to change that thinking because it is clearly wrong.

[Vanilla]

Help,

Thoughts are just thoughts, instead of 'wrong' could you reframe as 'not useful' or 'a boulder'?

They just are and they can be changed. Every human is capable of love and being loved, your D adores you and you back to her.

Oh I see that Boulder begin to slide down the slope.............

I hear Help say I am loved and I love: and I really like it. He believes it and smiles.

V

[help67]

Hi V,

Hope you day was good.

I do believe I am loved and I love, I will think and believe because it is true. Yesterday when I went into work, I started counting all the people that said hello to me, wished me well, or just smiled, and it was so many, I lost count.
I have always been shy, and I never liked that about myself, but I do find myself less shy each day. It's funny even here on this forum I don't post much to other threads partly because I am unsure about if I am helping and partly because of my shyness, even though it's anonymous.
And you made me smile with your post.

[Vanilla]

Help

I learned a great deal from posting on others threads. For newbies, it's often enough just to say. I know how you feel. Or I can see you having a bad day today. In the early days here it a great relief when simple posts appear and acknowledge you exist and that you are in pain.

Or just simply Hugs or Peace today or thank you for posting on my thread or even you got a new job congrats or how did your xyz go?

Eventually a newbie will be here and it will resonate with you so you have wise words. If you would like to look at RD or Bobs posts you will see what I mean about beautiful supportive posts.

Give it a go, I think it would be a 180 for you. Add qualifiers to your words such as I think or just my 2c worth or unsure or Wonka is your best guide. Wonka is always a best guide. You can even say 'there is a detachment thread.' Or point to a resource. Others decisions are theirs to make and if you are incomplete usually someone will chip in or present an alternative. It can be about the gift on insight but often it's the gift of support.

You are always welcome to say Hi on my thread. There are times I want a presence here but not to post on my thread so I don't but others know I am about and all is well. I am not silent.

You will also find that you build a 'tribe' those who have posted to you are interested in you and your sitch already and some are here for the long term others the short. It's a little like school those who arrive at the same period develop with you, older kids help you a long. Suddenly before you know you are the third grader.

For me Edz, Jim, Toots RD were in my class. RD and Dawn were the big kids and the wonderful Greengrass and Sunny and Maybell were the very big kids. So it is.

But posting to others, (occasional foot in mouth and accidentally sex change of posters) has grown me as a person plus much of my thoughts are developed off board and that too adds to my toolkit.

WhyUs you have a great deal to offer to pay it forward.

I am smiling because you smiled.

V

[JellyB]

Hi Help

Come and hang with me and u-turn. We are both introverts and found some commonalities in each other's sitchs, more about how we think and feel about ourselves, but also how we connect with people. I have made similar statements about commenting on others posts, not feeling like I had anything to offer. I remember Zues used to bump my threads for me, just to make sure I felt like I belonged and would keep posting. What a lovely man. Lady V gives solid useable advice, and she gives it with the most generous and kindest of hearts. Run with what she offers about this.

Pop by my thread any time, and pop by U-turns too, we have tea and cheeeeeesecake over there. You are more than welcome.


Jelly xxx

[help67]

Hi V,

Hope you are well.

I have read a lot of peoples sitches and I will post some more, I have been meditating, and I do use that as a way to send good wishes for people here.
I think I found a 180 for myself that scares me and will probably suprise my waw, although I am not doing it for her. I signed up today for an acting class, it doesnt start until September, but I am excited about it. I always wanted to be on stage, either as an actor or musician, and it will happen before the year ends.
I am learning guitar and actually wrote a few songs, a musician friend of mine said they were good, but I am not technically good enough to play them outside of my cave yet. I wrote a song for my daughter, its about always being there for her. I played it for her yesterday, I almost didnt, it was hard for me because it was very emotional for me. After I played it, she went to bed, but 10 minutes later got up to tell me the song was stuck in her head, and that she was so lucky to have such an awesome dad. Ten months ago I would have been in my cave, drunk, watching tv, and would have missed out on that.

[Vanilla]

Hi V,

Hope you are well.

I have read a lot of peoples sitches and I will post some more, I have been meditating, and I do use that as a way to send good wishes for people here.
I think I found a 180 for myself that scares me and will probably suprise my waw, although I am not doing it for her. I signed up today for an acting class, it doesnt start until September, but I am excited about it. I always wanted to be on stage, either as an actor or musician, and it will happen before the year ends.
I am learning guitar and actually wrote a few songs, a musician friend of mine said they were good, but I am not technically good enough to play them outside of my cave yet. I wrote a song for my daughter, its about always being there for her. I played it for her yesterday, I almost didnt, it was hard for me because it was very emotional for me. After I played it, she went to bed, but 10 minutes later got up to tell me the song was stuck in her head, and that she was so lucky to have such an awesome dad. Ten months ago I would have been in my cave, drunk, watching tv, and would have missed out on that.

I am just bursting with love and am so proud for you.

V

[u-turn]

I do believe I am loved and I love, I will think and believe because it is true. Yesterday when I went into work, I started counting all the people that said hello to me, wished me well, or just smiled, and it was so many, I lost count.
I have always been shy, and I never liked that about myself, but I do find myself less shy each day. It's funny even here on this forum I don't post much to other threads partly because I am unsure about if I am helping and partly because of my shyness, even though it's anonymous.

Hey there help
I just wanted to let you know that I am a lot like you - GAL is tough for me because of my introverted tendencies, and dare I say shyness. I do know that a smile inspires a smile - a hello inspires a hello back - that's the start.

I do hold back on my posts here for the same reasons, lack of confidence that I can actually help someone, when I need so much help. But just wanted to let you know there are a lot of great people here that are in your corner. It will catch up - keep posting.

I actually haven't looked into your story much yet, but will and will get back to you.

take care.

[help67]

Hi JB,

I wanted to thank you for the invite, I will take you up on it soon. Hope you are well.

[help67]

Hi u,

Thanks for posting, I agree about the smile, hello being a good step. It is getting easier for me to do the more I do it.

[help67]

My w dropped my d off yesterday and she gave me an apple that she picked from a tree in her yard. I had to bite my tongue, I wanted to ask her if a serpent told her to give it to me.
Today when she dropped off my d, she gave me a cinnamon bun the two of them baked today. I sometimes think it would be easier if my w would be mean to me.

[Vanilla]

Help!

Really?

You want mean........

A lovely cinnamon bun from your precious D, gracious.

Now just you go and enjoy every yummy mouthful, with chopped Apple. You can send that my way and I would add some blue cheeeeeeese.

V

[help67]

I read something by Pema Chodron that put into perspective the craziness that is the day to day of a LBS. "Because we mistakenly take what is always changing to be permanent, we suffer".
So what your WAS might feel today will change many times, it is our job to work on ourselves, and to not fight them about their feelings. Easier said then done.

[help67]

Hi V,

Hope you are doing good.

No, I don't want my ww wife to be mean to me. Not much interaction between us this week, when she drops off or picks up d, my ww waits in the car, and I didn't go outside to say hello.

Emails about d camp, and one email where she sent me something funny to watch on you tube. I sent her one email asking how her day went when she took our d to work, she sent back a funny reply.

I want to ask her if she would like to hang out and do something. Is this a bad idea at this point. It feels like she is db me.

[help67]

WW picked d up today, she asked me how things were, I said good, asked how she was, she said the same. I thanked her for apples she gave me from her tree, I made a joke and she laughed. PMA was good, but just faking the sadness that is always there.

So as far as the seperation agreement goes, we filled out a budget sheet and she said she would get back to me, this was 15 weeks ago. I was trying to convince her I didn't want it, but i finally said we should do it because it is what she needs, and like i said it has been 15 weeks and no mention of it.

I am trying to use this limbo time as a way to sit with my emotions and see where they come from and dig deeper to see the underlying reason.

Made my d feel guilty the other day because she wanted to go to friends when i had plans for us. In the past it would not have been addressed, but now we had a good talk about it, and figured out how to communicate even better.

[Fogg]

It makes sense to me, thinking it would be easier if WW was just mean. The niceness keeps you holding on and stops detaching, making things more difficult and drawn out for you. It would appear to be easier to let go of a spewing demon W than one baking you food. Maybe in the long run its different, just letting know you I've had similar thoughts and can relate

[help67]

What is meant by it taking one month for every year together, for me that would be about 2 yrs. Is that time that is needed for the ww to heal, for her to believe the LBS has truly changed or something else.

[help67]

Thanks for understanding,
\
My w is a nice person, it is who she is, and at the beginning I decided that whatever I had to do, I would no longer be mean or hurt her. The more I learn how I hurt her, and I become more empathic, and compassionate, the harder it is to not try to do the things she wanted then. To become again the person she fell in love with and not be able to be there for her makes me cry everyday. I am learning to be there for myself and that is good.

[help67]

So my w asked about the seperation agreement tonight in an email. When I read it, I thought about her, not me. I felt all the pain I caused her. I spent a lot of years not being there for her, and I wished I did things differently, I have learned a lot, and its only just begun. This is what my w needs now, and so I will be there for her now, in this way. I love her, I will always love her, love is all I have for her no matter the outcome.
I am happy with who I am becoming, I have an amazing d, I have a lot of love to give and someone one day will be on the receiving end of that love.

[help67]

HELP QUICK,

I sent a request to Dr. Phil and I got a call back with a chance to be on the show, I wated to know I was doing everything i could for my family. I need to get back to them asap, I havn't told my w because I didnt expectthe to callback. Should I ask my w if she is interested.

[CaliGuy]

So one post you are 'loving' your wife and going to give her the space she needs .... and the next you are wanting to air all your dirty laundry and the fact she is with another OM on Nat'l Television

Not so sure your W would all ears and ready to help you out here. In fact I would gamble she shifts into high gear and drives faster away.

Is 15 min of fame worth your M? Dr Phil is about the ratings ... not sure with a WW he could snap her out of it with that snazzy mustache

Just my .02

[dwh15]

I agree with Cali. That sounds like a huge risk to me, with no guarantee your W would even participate. And you both look like potential fools on national TV. I think for this sort of problem, you are much better off seeking local, private therapists, if that's the kind of help you need.

[help67]

Your right, I sent the email to them awhile ago when I was desperate, I was suprised to hear from them. It would be hurtful to my w to do this, so I will forget about it. I did forget about it, I was just caught off guard that I got a call.

I am actually feeling mostly good about myself lately, and am ok with my situation, I am happier more often. The person I am becoming is who I am, it's who my w fell in love with. I do miss her, but your right about her needing space, I will just enjoy whatever time we do interact. I have learned a lot about communication in IC and from reading, and now that I am sober when I talk with my w I look into her eyes. They are more beautiful then I remember, and I a grateful for that.

[help67]

Thank you,

You are right, I would not want to put my w through that, I do not want to hurt her in anyway. If I am fortunate enough that my w would want to go to counseling with me, there are great local mc. She had wanted to go in the past, I was drunk, blind, and scared. I am not scared anymore, and I think it would be pretty awesome actually, my walls have come down,and there is nobody that I would like to share with more than my w.