The story so far... -STBX involved in A since late December/early January 2015 -I begin versions of LRT in mid-February -STBX moves in with her parents first week of April -I expose A to OM's W in mid-April -STBX threatens to file for D immediately following exposure of A -Holding pattern for now -Pulling farther back from STBX -Established boundary regarding daily contact with children -W served me D papers on 06/19/15
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
For continuity sake, here is Georgia Bulldog's post with my and Caliguy's response below...
"I still think you have missed and keep missing opportunities and it's frustrating to me to watch you miss this under the banner of detaching.
Detaching, to me, means this "spew" won't/shouldn't really bother you anymore, not that you give her the silent treatment when she starts talking about your relationship. Your wife has months and months of rationalizations and justifications built up in her mind that she needs to work through before she can get to a place of being ready to accept responsibility for her choices. So what if she blames you and etc, etc, etc. Her words are only expressing her illogical "feelings" on the subject because taking full responsibility is just too hard to do at this moment. You are a logical thinker. She isn't. All you have to do is listen. You will get a lot of credit LATER for just listening to her say whatever mean thing she chooses to discuss with you. Half the time they don't even remember half the hateful stuff they say. They are just reaching for whatever they can, like a child, to make everything someone else's fault. She can blame you all she wants but your logic should be telling you "I'm rubber and she's glue, whatever she says to me, bounces off and sticks her".
Point is. Of course she's not ready. She's lost. She's not going to stumble upon the right words and give you assurances of anything. Even if she said "the right words" you'd be a fool to believe them YET anyway. As Michele Wiener Davis says "The general rule of thumb here is to be responsive to your partners new interest, but not too responsive." Whereas you are being almost completely NON-responsive. You asked one question and she started spewing and you demonstrated your conflict avoiding/emotionally unresponsive stance by evading, getting off the phone ASAP and, now, giving her the silent treatment.
I suggest you apologize to her for skipping out on the conversation and tell her, as she's aware, that you are a conflict avoider. Tell her that if you two are going to figure anything out it's going to involve some conflict and you aren't afraid of being emotionally vulnerable. Then ask her casually if she'd like to meet you somewhere specific (a restaurant or park) "to talk" sometime this week OR NOT. You'd be approaching this as essentially saying that YOU are doing her a favor and finally willing to talk to her...if she wants.
Please see that her first big objection above was "I TRIED to talk you to". This is now her most current rationalization and justification. SHE has tried and you aren't communicative so it's again, your fault. By generally offering to talk...you take that away.
NOW...if she ACCEPTS talking. Go back to your MWD LRT techniques. Meet with her but HAVE FUN. Be more GAL than serious. When it gets serious....JUST LISTEN. I prefer to say "tend to agree" versus "validate" because validation of wayward spew is just so hard to do sometimes where it's easier to NOT buy it, let it fly past you and say "Hmmmmm, I see", while seeming to nod your head up and down followed by a poignant or misdirecting question instead of a "validating" statement. It's not your job to "validate" spew and a wayward doesn't need you to say "yeah, you're right, it's all my fault". They don't REALLY believe half the stuff they say themselves. Anyway, heres the LRT suggestions"
Originally Posted By: MWD LRT 1. Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic. 2 Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all. 3. Do not ask any questions about your future together. 4. Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through. 5. Continue to be upbeat. 6. Do not say, "I love you" 7. Resist getting into conversations about your marriage. 8. Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.
You need to stay interested, but cool, until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse's renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold. Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together. You can try discussing your future together and see what happens. If your spouse is receptive, you can continue to move forward slowly and begin to tackle the issues that drove you apart in the first place. If, on the other hand, you're met with reluctance, backpedal just as quickly as you can. Resume your interested but distant stance until things move in a more positive direction. This might take a whole lot longer that you would like, weeks, even months. However, you must be patient. As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it's okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern. It will try your patience, but what else do you have to do right now that could be as important as trying to save your marriage? Be patient.
I certainly expect some detractors to come behind me telling you to stay the course you are seemingly already on. Keeping your distance and making her chase you. They care about you just as I do and want to protect you from further emotional pain but you've had a window of opportunity here to save the mother of your children from making the biggest mistake of her life for awhile now. I'm estimating that she's just about done "pursuing" you (way wards think THEY are the prize...she just had some big shot Doctor chasing her so she FEELS like she's the deal right now). I KNOW it's wholly inadequate. I know she's still thinking and saying very hurtful things right now. But detaching enough so you can get in there and hack the spew while BEING the cocky arrogant man who knows he's the best man in the world for her and she'd be a fool not to reciprocate eventually is the best way to go. On behalf of your daughter/children that you DO love more than life itself I urge you to TRY to win over your wife's cold heart by being a resilient confident man who's not afraid of a little conflict and complaining.
Turn your FEAR into FAITH. You can be her hero and save her...if YOU choose to be. Sure she can reject it but she'll never be able to tell anyone you didn't try or you gave up on her and your family."
I responded...
GB,
I appreciate your response. And to be honest, even though it's only been a short time in my journey, I have questioned "doing nothing" in regards to saving my family. Now, of course, I haven't been doing nothing behind the scenes. I have been a rock solid father, GAL'ing as much as I can, and rediscovering my confidence. Yet, STBX did make some comments yesterday that troubled me.
One, she said that she did try calling in the past to express her interest in changing our present course. I don't know what this meant but it made me wonder.
Two, she said that she used to miss me a bunch but now she is just accepting everything as it is. GB, this would give credence to your theory that my window of opportunity is passing.
But, I'm torn just because her actions are pretty undeniably opposed to reconciliation.
Just thinking out loud here... I could call tonight around the regular time I call to say hello to the kids and say that I was in the area and would love to say hi to the kids in person, especially after D4's meltdown yesterday. Then, if things seem positive with STBX, I could ask her if she wants to grab a coffee and finish our conversation from yesterday.
Thoughts?
Then CaliGuy replied... The kid stuff is so darn tough .... I do not have much to add or tell you .. I can see GB's line of thought and reasoning, this DB dance is a delicate and tricky one, I do think deep down you just need to trust and figure out what to do and when .. timing does seem to be a huge factor in all this, catching the WW in a good time and place does help.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
STBX sent me two pics of the kids with a new puppy. I called 30 minutes later and said that I had just finished dinner in the area and asked if I could stop by to see the kids. STBX said i could but she and the kids were walking the puppy with her parents.
I met them at the park and walked with D4 and her new puppy. It was great to see her. She was so excited to have her new puppy. After we got back to the in laws house, I stayed s little while longer to play with D4 and the new puppy. Then I said goodbye and STBX drove me back to my car at the park.
While driving, I apologized for being out of it yesterday when she called. I then told her that if she ever wanted to finish our conversations and grab a cup of coffee to let me know. She said that she could never pass up a cup of coffee. As I was getting out of car, she said that she liked my bracelets and thought they were cool.
I was friendly and upbeat. STBX and I conversed about the puppy and smiled at each other a few times when talking about D4. All in all, I felt it was a win to see the kids and at least make the effort for future communication with STBX.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
I was friendly and upbeat. STBX and I conversed about the puppy and smiled at each other a few times when talking about D4. All in all, I felt it was a win to see the kids and at least make the effort for future communication with STBX.
Hi Defacto,
A win indeed! You got to see your children, the new puppy, how happy your D4 was with the puppy and your conversation sounds like it went well. It sounds like you may be headed in the right direction.
Please, try not to move too fast...keep on doing what you have been doing.
Take care my friend!
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Agree with bob. Pma, upbeat and looking good. Then detaching with no expectations help any meeting not be devastating. That way if she spews, you're detached and it doesn't get to you.mor if no spew but not as well as you may have hoped for, there's no hope because you have no expectations.
All easier said than done, but seems to be the goal. The best of you with ww having no impact on your feelings right now.
M-33 W-33 S-11, S-8 M-11, T-14 BD - 12/26, Divorce Filing and admits to affair (her) 4/18 I moved out 5/23
I don't disagree with GB's post to a point, and I can see that being ok if executed well.
I have personally gone the other route. Detach, GAL, 180's, and LRT.
My wife is an addict. I have boundaries. I'm not here to enable her. I'm not here to teach her consequences. I'm not her dad. I'm not her counselor. And while we may be married in name, when she tells me the M is over and begins her serial affairs she is no longer under the umbrella being my W.
For there to be any chance of R, SHE needs to overcome her addiction, she needs to work on herself, she needs to take responsibility for her actions, and overall she needs to step up.
I have boundaries, and for me I am not going to remain friends with the person who murdered my wife (this is how I view it).
My contribution to the chance of R will be my 180s, my GAL/detachment that allows me to stay strong and remain true to my vows. That is what I can do.
Her behavior is 100% on her, and it is on her to demonstrate to me that she wants things to change. If she won't do that then I'd prefer to finalize the divorce as it's been a year and I'm not a plan B.
If she wants to interpret my distance as disinterest in her wellbeing or our M...that too is on her. I'm not responsible for assumptions, mindreading, or projections on her part. I'm here if she wants to ask questions, but I'm not chasing her down and hoping she asks so I can make sure she knows my feelings on the matter.
GB- it's funny, I don't disagree with your post, believe it or not. I simply am unwilling to assume responsibility for my STBX's actions during the M, post BD, or in the future. I am walking a path I believe in, I am just no longer interested in trying to sell it to her in any way.
I see a lot of truth in me being a conflict avoider. I will reflect on that, I have been posting on the very topic. At the end of the day all I can say is that it's part of who I am, and while I can grow and change to some extent (and I have), I am good enough the way I am, and if she doesn't see my value I'm not going to blame myself for her choices or condemn myself for not being someone I'm not.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Do you think the WAS will be attracted to someone who wouldn't move on with their life and would just stay and wait till they came back to them? Is that attractive? When you move on with your life, when you show them that you value your life just as much as you valued there life, it shows them you're a strong, confident person - those are attractive traits. When you stop holding on to them and let go and move on with your life and whatever that brings you including possibly dating new people, it shows the WAS that you are no longer a backup plan or option in their eyes, if you stay behind and wait for them to come back to you, they will always know that they can take their time coming back if they even want to come back, you give them the power of choice over your life, again not attractive. When you remove yourself as an option in their life, they don't have that choice anymore, you've taken back control of your life which is attractive because think about the qualities you're displaying with this action: confident, secure, ambitious, taking a leadership role in your life again, etc. You're not the backup plan anymore for them, the WAS is then faced with the reality that you aren't there waiting anymore, you're moving on with your life, and if their new relationship isn't working out and they were considering coming back, this generates fear of loss on their part and makes them reconsider their current actions.
That's DB'ing.
What isn't DB'ing?
Hanging in there, writing long letters & emails, text message "terrorism" (where you text them non stop), begging, pleading, grovelling for love, giving them books and articles and telling them they should feel different and they should love you, telling them that they took marriage vows and they have to stick it out even if the marriage is horrible in their point of view, moving out of the master bedroom, moving out of the home to "give them space", being sad and acting depressed, etc. etc. etc.
None of these things is attractive, none of these things is going to bring your WAS back home.
Is the method that I'm describing fool proof, NO. Is it 100% successful, NO. You show me any divorce busting method that is 100% successful all the time, it doesn't exist.
Some relationships can't be fixed for whatever reason, the other person may be at a point in their life where they really want something new & different regardless of how shortsighted that point of view may be.
But they moved on with their life. They had an affair and found someone new. And how did you respond when they did these things? You started working on yourself to show them that you could change, on top of that maybe you started working out and buying new clothes to make yourself look more attractive physically. You started getting a life to show them that you're an attractive individual with options in your life. You did all these things when they moved on and chose to end the relationship. You did all these things because they moved on. They discovered they had options and when a person has options they become more attractive to other people. When a WAS leaves their marriage and starts dating other people, maybe having an affair with someone new and starts a new relationship all the while knowing that they have you in the background should they decide to ever come back, they know they have options. That makes them attractive to you because you were busting your butt trying to get them back and then trying different techniques to get their attention, etc.
In my opinion, why not try doing some of the same things the WAS does, it certainly works on you and every other LBS on these forums so there seems to be a common effect being displayed here. The person who leaves makes the decision to leave on their own. When you originally started seeing each other and dating, you BOTH chose to do that, you would BOTH choose to go out to restaurants, movies, parks, do activities together, etc. When you considered getting married, you BOTH chose to do this and planned out how it would happen. When a person leaves a marriage to pursue other people, dating, have an affair, etc. THEY are making the CHOICE on their own, they aren't making that choice with you. They are taking all the power in the relationship and choosing to do what they want and the LBS is left behind powerless. How do you change that dynamic? How do you reclaim some of the power in the relationship? How do you make a WAS reconsider their actions?
FKAF, for what it's worth, in my own situation, things only turned around when I took back control of my life and took back the power in the relationship. I tried everything else. I moved out of the master bedroom and then the home because she asked me to because she wanted "space", I wrote letters, emails, shared my feelings, showed my wife how vulnerable I was, I begged her to go to counseling, I was needy, insecure, wussy like, bought gifts and generally jumped through every f!@#$%* hoop there was to show my wife that I loved her and wanted her back. When the WAS has that much control in a relationship, they will never be attracted to the LBS and they will never be motivated to come back. Marriage vows are just words and when a WAS has that thought process in place and "runs the show", the only thing you can do is to shake up their reality. In the end this is what is working in my situation and I'm the one now that has the hard time wanting her back after this whole process, that's the danger of detachment, I reclaimed my life back, my eyes are open now, and I'm not sure I want someone like that back in my life who would have done all these things to me, my wife now wants me to go to counseling, she wants to move back home, she talks to me everyday: in person, by text, by email, she does favors for me, she is sorry and is starting to show remorse for her actions, she wants me to forget the past and wants us to move on to a "great new" relationship for us and our family, she tells me that "people make mistakes", she tells me that she "held her family and friends in higher priority than her husband and that she knows now that is wrong".
She didn't see any of these issues as problems when she originally dropped the "bomb". She was content to live on planet "fruitopia" while she was in control and living a great life. When I hit rock bottom, reached my personal threshold of tolerance and that switch inside me finally flicked on and said "she's never going to change and she's hurting me and she knows it and still doesn't care, why am I still jumping through all these hoops to get her back?", that's when I moved back home and experienced "batshitcrazy" (and it was an experience), I slept in my bed in the master bedroom and packed all her things and told her that I wanted her to move out, instead of taking the custody scheduled she so generously gave me, I got lawyers involved and got shared joint custody, I became more active in my own life, I made her responsible for her own life (the term around here is "she can wear her big girl panties"), she was basically living an easy life on my dime, what would prompt her to change that if she was allowed to cake eat for as long as she wanted and I was feeding her that cake? A free ride compliments of me and I realized that and I didn't want that anymore so I decided things would change.
But that's just me, that's where I am right now. Life is really good and it's good because I know now that I'm responsible for living a great life and for a long time during the unhappy portion of our marriage I was miserable and taken for granted and I never took care of myself.
Now I have options, now I won't settle and my wife knows that. Yes I'm a bit of a hard a$$ as well as being a smart a$$, I'm working towards that middle ground for me. I'm a great dad and I make sure my kids have a great life, they didn't ask for this situation and although a part of me wants to give them their family back I can't just be married for the kids, I got married for me first and I want a great relationship and my wife is in personal counseling right now for herself and she's making real changes in her life and I just want to be sure that before I re-enter married life again if that's what I choose to do, it's for the right reasons and that a relationship will be loving, caring, fun, enjoyable and maintainable because regardless of what anyone says, marriage is hard work and I don't care if that doesn't sexy, that's reality. Married people get lazy with each other and take each other for granted, you have to consciously treat each other better, you have to make time for dating which means getting a sitter for the kids, you have to put excitement in the mix, you have to travel, you have to do things together but also make sure you maintain a personal individual life as well.
Just an FYI...there are tidbits of truth and effective strategies in "Plan RobX'" but it's NOT DB'ing. It's plan Robx. Limited in scope and depth by his own singular personal experience. He mixes his own philosophies and terrible advice and he's simply a nobody, LIKE ALL OF US HERE, except Michele Weiner-Davis. Stick with the real expert and her LRT if you really want to save your marriage.
BTW, Robx was banned from DB and several other infidelity forums. I surprised that post is allowed here because it's promoting another plan, "Plan Robx", that is being literally presented as DB.
My personal opinion. I think Plan RobX is divorce advice.
I'd also surmise his experience doesn't apply to your situation because you DID NOT roll over completely on your wayward wife. You stood up for yourself. She moved out. You exposed and you basically haven't taken her spew (sure you avoided it, but you didn't just take it and accept all the blame). Your wife is pursuing you.
There are some good points so it's not a complete waste of "ink". I was thinking of suggesting a couple similar points though. For example, I think you'd approach this "having second thoughts conversation" from the aspect that YOU are the one now having second thoughts. You thought you were done with the marriage and moving on but when you spend more and more time with your kids and see the effects it's having on them; you just KNOW you have to try. Basically, you PRESUME her interest because YOU are the awesome dad, good provider, super guy that has confidence and mojo....of course, she wants to get back together with you. You almost apologize for not approaching her with your feelings earlier. Just don't give talking about her second thoughts much ground. Why wouldn't she have second thoughts, it's not like you had an affair. Now, don't SAY that. You just proceed "as if"....being fun and confident. You aren't there to talk her into giving you a second chance and it'd be nice to slip in a couple boundaries you are going to require before you are willing to commit full steam to recovery (she needs to leave working anywhere near OM). It should be a primary condition prerequisite to her moving back home along with ending the divorce filing.
Read up on "Presumptive Closing" as a sales technique because that's basically the strategy you'll implement. Might avoid some spew because you aren't there to listen to her grievances. You are there to talk about the future.
When you meet her. If the conversation gets deep you might also use a DB type - Solution Focused Brief Therapy type - MIRACLE Question: Ask your wife to close her eyes and envision a future where you both have a wonderful happy marriage and family and ask her to describe what that would look like to her, then ask her to be specific with first what you'd be doing in such vision and then what she'd be doing in such vision. Listen long and hard. Let her wonder around with this focusing her on the future versus spewing about the past. Then you say, "we are both reasonable logical intelligent individuals that should have no problem developing a plan and implementing those behaviors until they become our habits and achieving a marriage both of us with enjoy and be fully satisfied with. I know that doesn't sound romantic but it can be. Basically we both want the same thing, a romantic and loving marriage of extraordinary care. We just never knew how to do it. I've been learning a lot lately and I'd like to lead us there if you want. I can't do it alone. It won't be easy, but I'm willing to try. Our children deserve a shot at that vision too."
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
I do agree with part of what he is saying about being attractive to the wayward spouse. Building a life and GAL without them. Many of the reconciled spouses have said that a big factor was seeing the LBS moving on without them and that life would be 'okay' without them.
