Crisortunity - A beautiful world with endless possibilities.

[PigPen]

Great take home message Py. One especially us LBS's need to remember over and over. I had a friend from high school reach out yesterday when he heard the news of my separation and even after explaining my considerable role in it and taking responsibility for that he reminded me that my W had a lot of options are her disposal and walking out was only one of them.

He told me a number of times - remember this isn't all about you. Don't beat yourself up, you might have made mistakes but your heart is a good and marriage is harder work than anyone realizes (he's with with his W for 20 years now).

I appreciate you writing all of that out.

[Pyrite]

For me, this situation has been a blessing. Cadet and GB has a disagreement about whether or not this A, D can be interpreted as a gift. Well for me it has. At times I certainly would not view it in this light, but as time goes on I do so more and more often. It has reunited me with my spirituality. I don’t particularly mean so in a religious sense. I am not religious for a start. But I am now becoming, and once was very spiritual.

I don’t want to give the wrong impression. I am certainly not a clean cut, teetoling, pillar of virtue. My last post started with “The past is an open book”. This “gift”, this opportunity, has opened this book for me, and urged me to read the paragraphs that I cant help but feel have been repressed by my psyche until now.

I have some screwed up core beliefs. I might come back to these, or post again. But I also have some really good core beliefs, my spirituality. Among these is forgiveness, compassion, kindness, respect and consideration. I am so happy to have found these again. I am indebted to my STBX for this. I am still open to sharing this with her if she is willing. I used to think this meant R, but now I am starting to not even care about that. I am not writing it off, or saying I don’t want that (the b**ch left me etc). It has to do with my unhealthy core beliefs. Ultimately, the M, our R, was almost doomed from the start. Not necessarily, and not that I was the only one with a personality in the R.

I’ll explain in a later post. Have to think on it. Been a rough week. 2 sick kids. Backsliding. Work. Blerrrgghh. 1AM here.

Also – thanks PP and Huddy. Too tired to reply – sorry. Goodnight all.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

For me, this situation has been a blessing. Cadet and GB has a disagreement about whether or not this A, D can be interpreted as a gift. Well for me it has. At times I certainly would not view it in this light, but as time goes on I do so more and more often. It has reunited me with my spirituality. I don’t particularly mean so in a religious sense. I am not religious for a start. But I am now becoming, and once was very spiritual.

I don’t want to give the wrong impression. I am certainly not a clean cut, teetoling, pillar of virtue. My last post started with “The past is an open book”. This “gift”, this opportunity, has opened this book for me, and urged me to read the paragraphs that I cant help but feel have been repressed by my psyche until now.

I have some screwed up core beliefs. I might come back to these, or post again. But I also have some really good core beliefs, my spirituality. Among these is forgiveness, compassion, kindness, respect and consideration. I am so happy to have found these again. I am indebted to my STBX for this. I am still open to sharing this with her if she is willing. I used to think this meant R, but now I am starting to not even care about that. I am not writing it off, or saying I don’t want that (the b**ch left me etc). It has to do with my unhealthy core beliefs. Ultimately, the M, our R, was almost doomed from the start. Not necessarily, and not that I was the only one with a personality in the R.

I’ll explain in a later post. Have to think on it. Been a rough week. 2 sick kids. Backsliding. Work. Blerrrgghh. 1AM here.

Also – thanks PP and Huddy. Too tired to reply – sorry. Goodnight all.

What you are describing is God's gift of grace. Hope. Truth. Light. God's healing of your hurting heart and soul. God's steering you back upon your True path where once you were.

The "gift" of sin is death. Darkness. Your wife's sin was done to herself. Not at you and not for you. She wasn't "giving" you this and, if she were, Satan would prefer she take you down with her down the wayward path of hatred, isolation, loneliness, resentment, anger and loss of hope.

I add the following quote not as a means to preach but convey my point of view. I know we are different religions but I believe the bible is also a part of Muslim teaching along with other books so I hope referencing a bible verse is not offensive.

15 But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. - (New Living Translation Roman 5:15-16).

I did a little research and maybe the best Muslim reference I could come up with for would be:

"The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and make reconciliation his reward is due from Allah: For (Allah) loves not those who do wrong." (Koran 42:40)

The "gift" of clarity, hope and love that you speak of above in your post, is, perhaps, your "reward" due from Allah and not something your wife gave you.

Consider this...would it be a a gift if she did it again? Would you add adultery to your holiday or Amazon wish list? Yet, we all (religious persons) pray for God's "gifts" all the time. We should recognize the true gift giver. and celebrate our God's gifts and the lessons we learned in opposing sin, in spite and despite of sin, not because of it.

[Pyrite]

What you are describing is God's gift of grace. Hope. Truth. Light. God's healing of your hurting heart and soul. God's steering you back upon your True path where once you were.

The "gift" of sin is death. Darkness. Your wife's sin was done to herself. Not at you and not for you. She wasn't "giving" you this and, if she were, Satan would prefer she take you down with her down the wayward path of hatred, isolation, loneliness, resentment, anger and loss of hope.

I see you are also taking poetic license here in using the word "gift" freely. In the spirit of its meaning and not one particular translation.

This almost sums it up GB. This is where my use of the word gift ignites you. Yes I totally agree that what she actually handed me was not intended as a generous offering to inspire me to find "the grace of God." But the net result is that it has. And moreover, I cannot imagine finding this any other way. I can imagine that another traumatic event such as the tragic death of my child MIGHT. But two things - i would probably choose this first and the death of a child would not force me to re-examine myself to the extent which I have in this case.

Not a huge point, but you are assuming that she is on this terrible path. This may be the best thing that has ever happened for her. She will die happy in the arms of this OM, or her subsequent partner.

I add the following quote not as a means to preach but convey my point of view. I know we are different religions but I believe the bible is also a part of Muslim teaching along with other books so I hope referencing a bible verse is not offensive.

15 But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. - (New Living Translation Roman 5:15-16).

I did a little research and maybe the best Muslim reference I could come up with for would be:

"The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and make reconciliation his reward is due from Allah: For (Allah) loves not those who do wrong." (Koran 42:40)

The "gift" of clarity, hope and love that you speak of above in your post, is, perhaps, your "reward" due from Allah and not something your wife gave you.

I think there is misunderstanding here. I am not muslim, she is, and only technically at that. I know more about Islam than what she cares to. However, this does highlight that perhaps you would agree with the terminology "reward", which is basically what I AM saying. She facilitated this reward being "offered".

Consider this...would it be a a gift if she did it again? Would you add adultery to your holiday or Amazon wish list? Yet, we all (religious persons) pray for God's "gifts" all the time. We should recognize the true gift giver. and celebrate our God's gifts and the lessons we learned in opposing sin, in spite and despite of sin, not because of it.

"Teach a man to fish.....". But he wants to eat, not learn to fish. If he forgets how to fish should we teach him again? Does he need it? Of course I would not wish for this to happen again, but I would also wish that I never encourage this to happen again, and that goes hand in hand with this "gift".

haaaaa - so this does sum it up. "The true gift giver". My beliefs are more inline with Budhism here. In that there is no supreme being. We all are the supreme being. And so I agree with you that I AM the true gift giver here - not my wife. She was the cause in this karmic duo. It is my re-action to her action. I don't suppose this satisfies you at all GB?

[Pyrite]

thanks Cadet

[Pyrite]

Again, self-indulgent, but perhaps useful for anyone that might catch on half way through and help with their own situation.

Last night I woke up. Again, I don’t remember what it was I was dreaming exactly. Although, nearly every night lately when I wake up in the middle of the night I recall working through my situation, organizing my thoughts rationally, which is supposed to be what happens when we sleep but this has still been surprising for me. That I have been generally so rational. Not that long ago, more often than not, I would wake up anxious and in in pain.

I have two ICs ATM. I am transitioning to the newer of the two, but I still have sessions left with the original IC that are being paid for by work. The 1st commented on my W sounding as if she has Aspergers (AS). The 2nd doesn’t discount this but tends more towards a Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). One of her many comments was that people with AS tend towards Rs with people who also exhibit AS traits. In some respects it is arguable that I do, but IC sees it significantly more apparent that I exhibit Mr Nice Guy (MNG) traits. Just the type that NPD tend towards.

Anyway, the above is issue one. The second issue I mentioned in an earlier post that I might come back to. My unhealthy core-beliefs. Basically core beliefs are the bottom layer of your thought process through which everything gets filtered. Because they are so deeply embedded, they almost always go unnoticed. Possibly the most useful description I have read has to do with identifying unhealthy core beliefs. Is there a particular compliment that makes you feel uneasy? Chances are at the bottom of this is an unhealthy core belief.

For example. My W tells me a colour t-shirt suits me. I am uneasy. I don’t think she is being disingenuous. Examining why I feel uneasy, I disagree that any colour “suits” me. Nothing can suit me. I am ugly – the core belief. Another example – I am in a meeting and agitated, reluctant to interject with my opinion. I “know” my opinion will be dismissed. My opinions are not valued – core belief. But it is also a good identifier that there is often no evidence to support that reaction. In this case, there is not only no evidence to support it, there are mountains of evidence to support that it is absolutely wrong. I win awards and get promoted ahead of schedule repeatedly. So whyTF would I feel agitated, anxious etc that my opinions are not respected. Unhealthy!

So anyway, I wake up – and I am so alert – and on the tip of my tongue is OMG! OMG! She has been controlling me for 12 years! I have been played for 12 years. I have been working my arse off to please her. She accused me of being controlling at BD, and I agreed and apologized, but what have I ever got out of it. Controlling? To what end? I had no say in how our kids were raised. If I had an opinion I was vetoed with “Are you questioning my instinct as a mother?”

My time with the kids is great. I can parent however I like. I bought d4 some flip-flops. She loves them. W never let me. Our whole R I put dinner on the table for her Cleaned up. Cleaned the house. Finances. Everything. She had a life of luxury. What did I ever get? Sex once every couple of months. With a condom. As a married couple!?!?

The NPD made perfect sense in this light. I told my Mum about the OMG moment. She just smiled and nodded. I asked her if she had ever thought this. “Why didn’t you say something?” “I did. We all did.” I remember one day after complaining about d4’s sleeping routine my sister asked me angrily “Don’t you have a say in your childs upbringing”. “Apparently not.” I replied. Semi-humorously. When we bought our house my Mum pointed out all of the pitfalls to which I agreed. So she asked, “So why are you buying it then?” My reply was “because W likes it”.

So why didn’t they slap me. Because W is a sweetheart, and I was desperately in love. Yes – she is a sweetheart. In her defense, I honestly don’t think she is even aware of it.

This is where I diverted yet again. Yes – I don’t think she is aware of manipulating our life together so that she lived the good life with everything taken care of. She honestly believed that I was controlling. An example for Smothy to consider – W honestly believed that my efficient stacking of the dishwasher and criticising her efforts were controlling. And in a sense it was. But who watched TV, and who did the dishes? ?Quo Bono? This was the same with everything.

And she is still controlling me. I am in the wings. She knows it. She does little things, like she compliments my funny stories when I send her updates about the kids. It keeps me in tow. She used to intermittently, casually call me darling, until I caught her out on that.

Dont get me wrong. I don’t think she is pure evil. I still believe there is hope for our R. But there is a lot to work through. I have had to go through all this to work out how screwed my core beliefs are that I don’t even stand up for myself. My mum commented that the OM looks like a complete sop. And I have met him, I think he is probably more that than an evil predator. I am considering that maybe he is just a stupid 24 year old that really has no moral compass yet, and W was complicit because she can control him.

I should also point out that my diversion is away from NPD or any “disorder”. More like a personality that exhibits traits of an NPD. We are just two ordinary people in a R. What happened was that in our R, in the 1st year of d4’s life, W was e getting all the love she needed from utter dependence of newborn. She didn’t need it from me. She didn’t return it to me. I felt unloved, un-needed. Voicing this was seen by her as additional pressure on her to accommodate my needs as well as baby.

As the years passed, the babies grew aere not so dependent. She returned to looking at me for co-dependence. But I had detached from the R because I had lived with it for years. So she found it somewhere else. She found someone that makes her feel loved. I am devastated because I never stopped loving her. I was waiting for a time when she needed my love again. Unfortunately, as life would have it, I was 2 years into a detached R before this happened. A new R was easier to pursue.

Her R with OM is almost certain to collapse. Maybe we can re-connect. Maybe not. Right now though, I feel free. I feel like I am the person I was 13 years ago. I am learning how I got so lost and maybe how to get back there permanently, rebuild him, better, stronger – and all for just 6 Million dollars.

Sorry, no time to edit. Hope this makes some sense. (Cadet - truly a gift )

-Py

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Not a huge point, but you are assuming that she is on this terrible path. This may be the best thing that has ever happened for her. She will die happy in the arms of this OM, or her subsequent partner.

I do not think this is an assumption at all. I have yet to see "happy" work out for a wayward spouse. I have dealt with 100's of couples in real life and read the stories of 1000's on the internet and have yet to see or hear of even one truly successful "happy" wayward journey. The statistics you often read on the internet forums sometimes is something like 3% of affair relationships result in marriages that survive 5 years. I'm not sure what study came up with that number and whether it's reliable. I think statistics in this area are impossible to truly nail down but I personally believe the 3% number is overstated. Further, I also surmise based upon observations and statements that very very few, if any, of such 2, 3, 5, 8 percent or whatever the true number is, are actually "happy".

Thus...it's not an assumption your wife is on a terrible and unhappy path. IMO, it is as close to a fact as one can get.

In fact, it's a big reason I try to push betrayed husband to fight for their wayward wives because SHE is drowning and destroying her life (as well as her family's). Instead of "if you love her let her go", I'm an advocate of "If you love her, TRY to save her". Your mileage may vary.

"Teach a man to fish.....". But he wants to eat, not learn to fish. If he forgets how to fish should we teach him again? Does he need it? Of course I would not wish for this to happen again, but I would also wish that I never encourage this to happen again, and that goes hand in hand with this "gift".

haaaaa - so this does sum it up. "The true gift giver". My beliefs are more inline with Budhism here. In that there is no supreme being. We all are the supreme being. And so I agree with you that I AM the true gift giver here - not my wife. She was the cause in this karmic duo. It is my re-action to her action. I don't suppose this satisfies you at all GB?

It's fine. I'm over a decade recovered and happily married so this stuff doesn't bother me. I'm passionate on behalf of new betrayed spouses and advocate on their behalf. You or anyone can call it whatever you want to me and I'll debate the subject. To live is to suffer sometimes and God uses suffering to bring us to our greatness. I believe God doesn't make us (anyone) suffer or commit sin, but His will allows it so He can shape us (versus "it" shaping us).

Take care and hope things keep looking up for you.

[Cadet]

Not a huge point, but you are assuming that she is on this terrible path. This may be the best thing that has ever happened for her. She will die happy in the arms of this OM, or her subsequent partner.

I do not think this is an assumption at all. I have yet to see "happy" work out for a wayward spouse. I have dealt with 100's of couples in real life and read the stories of 1000's on the internet and have yet to see or hear of even one truly successful "happy" wayward journey. The statistics you often read on the internet forums sometimes is something like 3% of affair relationships result in marriages that survive 5 years. I'm not sure what study came up with that number and whether it's reliable. I think statistics in this area are impossible to truly nail down but I personally believe the 3% number is overstated. Further, I also surmise based upon observations and statements that very very few, if any, of such 2, 3, 5, 8 percent or whatever the true number is, are actually "happy".

Thus...it's not an assumption your wife is on a terrible and unhappy path. IMO, it is as close to a fact as one can get.

In fact, it's a big reason I try to push betrayed husband to fight for their wayward wives because SHE is drowning and destroying her life (as well as her family's). Instead of "if you love her let her go", I'm an advocate of "If you love her, TRY to save her". Your mileage may vary.

I think she APPEARS happy right now.
In fact she is wearing a mask.
I agree with GB that it is very unlikely to end well unless she figures out that her mask must be discarded and her real self must be dealt with.

As far as trying to "save her" not sure that we are capable of doing that, she has to FIX herself first.

My .02

[Fogg]

This may be the best thing that has ever happened for her.

Thus...it's not an assumption your wife is on a terrible and unhappy path. IMO, it is as close to a fact as one can get.

In fact, it's a big reason I try to push betrayed husband to fight for their wayward wives because SHE is drowning and destroying her life (as well as her family's). Instead of "if you love her let her go", I'm an advocate of "If you love her, TRY to save her". Your mileage may vary.

To live is to suffer sometimes and God uses suffering to bring us to our greatness. I believe God doesn't make us (anyone) suffer or commit sin, but His will allows it so He can shape us (versus "it" shaping us).

I agree with what Pyrite said, but for an alternate reason. BD for many of us was that wake up call to change our lives for the better. Many of us would have never made the changes without that wake up call. God using the suffering in a way that shapes us no other way may have been able to, into that person of greatness.

In the case of the WW, going down this path of destruction may be the only way they make the changes in life to become that better person. God using their eventual suffering(we all agree A's end in unhappiness) to shape them into the person they should be. No guarantee they will wake up and realize whats happening, but for some this may be the only way they change other aspects of their life.

This is why I think letting go and trying to save them may work. Some WW's will never do that mirror work and look at themselves while we are interfering in their path, even if that path is mostly destruction right now. Our pursuing and trying to "save" them may actually push them further into sin because we are trying to control them in some way(from their point of view).

On the other hand its also possible trying to fight for them and say the right comment at the right time to save them could work.

The issue then becomes when is the best time to step out some and try to save them. Is the risk of trying to save them, but at the wrong time, worth pushing them further into sin?

Each persons sitch is going to be different, letting go may work for one but may not at all for another. DB'ing is about doing what works but at times we just don't know what will in the long run.

Personally, I think leading by example, being that lighthouse, showing them you can fix yourself is the best way to save them in the long run. We cant fix them, its something they have to do themselves. But we can show them through our own actions what that may look like. What happens past that is up to them and God.

[Pyrite]

Thus...it's not an assumption your wife is on a terrible and unhappy path. IMO, it is as close to a fact as one can get.

In fact, it's a big reason I try to push betrayed husband to fight for their wayward wives because SHE is drowning and destroying her life (as well as her family's). Instead of "if you love her let her go", I'm an advocate of "If you love her, TRY to save her". Your mileage may vary.

I'm not disagreeing with you - just pointing out that there is a "chance" that this her fairytale destiny love of a lifetime.

The figures I have been quoted from MCs is (here at least) the A R lasts 2 years on average. I imagine it is a highly skewed Gaussian distribution because only less that .5% actually are lasting Rs.

I grew up with neighbours who "swapped" partners. I think the order it went in was that H had A with W of friend. They ended up M. The LBSs became friends and later M. No real surprise that LBSs M was lifelong, the A that ended in M lasted ~20years - until he had another A (actually this was the A he bailed on, he had many over the years my Dad has told me).

I think the "if you love her let her go" sentiment is valid in the sense of letting her go for now. There is nothing I can do about that anyway. She has to find out for herself, IF she ever does, that D/A was not the answer. so I can't "try to save her". Only she can do that. The most I can do is be "the lighthouse". But I am not going to sit around waiting.

This modern phenomena which unashamedly encourages D if you are not "happy" in your M is screwed up. Nothing to do with the sanctity of M, it is just stupid. Personally I don't believe that M is sacred or D is a sin, but I acknowledge the reality that if a committed R (especially with children) doesn't "work" (aside from abuse etc) it is usually due to reasons which can and should be resolved, at least resolution should be attempted.

This A business is just a short term medication/fix. But the reality in our modern age is that following the A, the WAS is not going to admit they may not have been the victim, they may have behaved badly. In my Ws case I doubt that she will ever admit that she even had an affair. She insists that they were just friends. What she calls emotionally supportive friendship (which was only heading one way), we LBSs call EA.

Chances are when the A R goes bust in 18mths, W will return to exactly the same playbook. She might indeed fall into a heap - but I seriously doubt that she will reconsider our M and D and be remorseful. And this I bet is the case in 99% of cases. R after a prolonged A is very rare. I know of several couples that have R. One months after a "sexual" A, one 19 years after an A that ended with a 5 year M. And those in b/n. But by far the majority do not. Yes, often it is b/c the LBS is not open to it either, but also I have spoken to WASs (my aunty in particular) who never even considered it.

She absolutely sees now and after her A ended that the M was really not that screwed, but she never even considered R with her still single exH. Her reason "That was the past. It was what we both needed at the time and it was on the whole a great M". I flat out asked her so why didn't you try to be friends etc (their were kids involved to). She never considered it. Neither did he I guess.

Possibly if he stood out as the lighthouse and beckoned her back, then they may have. Someone else I was talking to got the impression that I was considering a possible future R with W. "You just don't do that - its like an unwritten law". WHY - I asked. "I don't know - you just dont". And that is what my W will be like, at best.

Yep - its up to them Fogg, totally agree. I am moving forward with my life, if she fits in with my stride, great. I am more than willing to support her and help her as best I can, because I do love her. But i'm not going to sit around like a static lighthouse hoping that she even looks my way. That would be a tragic waste of a life.