The Bird, the Cage, and the open door.

[uRworthy]

Hey Luke. You haven't been heard in your marriage for a long time. I get it..I've been there. Because of that, you are doing everything you can to make sure she hears you. You are terrified of going back to that marriage.

I think you know me well enough by now to know that I try to be fair. I know first hand how much we endure. But I have also seen several mlc's up close and I would not want to be them ever.

Looking at it from her perspective amidst crazytown, she is starting to come to terms with what she's done. She is trying to figure herself out. She is trying to see if the marriage can be saved. She is trying to understand all the changes you have made. Throw in a job loss and man, it's even crazier up in there.

So, as I said, I get your fear. I get your wanting to show her your changes are real. I get that you want to see her all in. But because of all that up there ^^^^, it's going to take time, my friend. It just is.

Aj is right, if you say it, you have to do it..because that's how you built trust and because that's the right thing to do.

Luke, I know you want this to hurry up already. The thing is that it cant work that way. She isn't where you are in the process. She just isn't. What you need to decide is whether you can hang in to see where this goes. If you can, then you have to be patient. She is still struggling. She doesn't have the tools you do.

You are watching way too closely...every word, action, facial expression. That just gets you crazy. Back on the path, sweetie. DB101. GAL, no cheeseless tunnels, etc.

You can do this.

[job]

Cali,
I do understand where you are coming from and do not want to return to the old marriage, however, your w is not on the same page w/you totally. She's still playing catch up and it's going to take some time for her to come out of her crisis fully. Patience! You can't rush the process even though you are starting to see glimmers of light. Patience!

This is the hardest part of the journey for us. We see the MLCer starting to wake up and we begin to think about what we want and we begin to push a little bit. You can't do that...not at this time. She has to face what she's done, accept her flaws and start moving towards a complete reconcilation.

Cali, please, please read the thread that I created on Reconnection. It takes a lot of time, and I do mean time, for them to fully recover. If you push, she will go back inside of herself and it will take far longer than it should. Again, patience, my friend! A lot of patience is needed now.

I truly want to see you and your wife reconcile...but it's on her time clock, not yours. Don't try to rush the process!

[Sotto]

Hi Cali, just checking in to see how you're doing? Hope you had a good 4th July my friend. Do post an update when you get chance..

Take care, Toots x

[CaliGuy]

I understand there will be up and down days .. today is a down ... So we will see what tomorrow brings

Do you? I mean, on one level you do. On another I'm not as sure. But this line above reminds me about perspective. i.e. the bigger picture. The overall and not the today or tomorrow.

Something to think about. As if you didn't have enough, right?

As Always AJ .. .you seem to make me dig deep ... thank you


I do ... I accept them and they do not really get to me and ruin a week .. just as you said its a big picture perspective for me, granted I am not the most patient person on the forum one of those Cali 1.0 software issues I continue to try to deal with and remove slowly, this one has been there as long as I can recall, with age and maturity its been better ... still room to grow here.

Something I see in your posts, neither good nor bad really. You seem more sure of yourself and what you want. And what you're willing to do to get them. I take that back - that's a good thing when applied appropriately. But it is also likely something she has never had to deal with for a very long time, no? I suspect there are some "old" world things that have to be overcome. Those things take time and patience to "stick" if you know what I mean. For example, you clearly state what you're willing to do and follow that up with action. Be careful with what you say as you'll have to follow that up by the way. But those things are important to you and therefore important to the relationship. Don't get drunk with the power of the new you, but rather judiciously express your needs, wants, desires etc.

I say that because it would be easy to overdo it and become a tyrant of sorts. If you stick to what is important to you, Cali 2.0, I think you'll find that things will work better for all concerned. I also think she'll challenge those things. She did in the past and it's not likely she will change that overnight. She will make changes as will you though. That's how it works.

I totally agree with the tyrant comparison, and I have been aware of that ... however its never been like that. After all this stuff, everything I have discovered about myself ... just as her crisis has nothing to do with me, the fact I now see the mistakes I made, realize how not getting what I needed from the M lead me down a path and resulted in my share of the unhealthy M ... I am not afraid to state what I need in a R with her or anyone for that matter .... by that I mean friendships as my behaviors were across the board .. not just the M but also in my relationships with family and friends. I was a fixer,a pleaser, conflict avoider because I put everyone elses happiness in front of my own at an unhealthy level.

I have learned the balance, my needs are just that ... needs. I am not jumping on a throne saying "W you cheated on me and in order for us to have a M you must do 1, 2, & 3 ... it has been more of a "Here are certain areas I feel went wrong in our M (mostly what I did to contribute to the bad that lead up to BD)ie.... I expected you to know what I needed innately and that was not fair to you when I became frustrated because of this, it also goes the other direction, she had to tell me her needs aswell .... as we continue to talk more we have a better understanding of filling those needs for each other so we can atleast avoid the conflict portion of this later. Even this past weekend (update to follow as there was a blow up) I owned my share of what happened, and what lead to the A.

Glad you were honest with her even with things you likely knew she didn't want to hear. That's kind of new for you two, right?

Given time, she'll adjust to the consistency of your expressions of needs and wants, just as you'll do for her.

Be patient and see the bigger picture vs. the day to day, amigo.

Peace,
AJ

Agreed, the more she is waking ... the more she seems to be noticing the changes and accepting them ... I think job touched on this too which I will reply to.

Thank you AJ.

[CaliGuy]

I have some questions for you. Imagine that! Did reutroville touch on MLC or only deal with typical marriage problems? Just asking because MLC goes way deeper than the typical "communication" issues in marriage. And, is the homework every night?

Short answer .. no, they do not really touch on it ... however if any of us from this part of the forum were sitting there ... you could pick up on it. I think one of the presenters .. just from their story was in a MLC fog, they seem to hit on it but more like the superficial MLC that we all think of before actually learning about the true MLC thing here ... if that makes sense.
The communication thing, its strange when I think about it. W and I ususally had pretty good communication till the MLC started in, I made a ton of mistakes early on which drove her further ... not getting my needs met I basically pulled our of Camp Emotion which left her totally alone (and ripe for OM to come in).. not that she gets a pass ... but I did check out as did she. We communicate well, just not when its over something heated ... I think that's where we are going to benefit from this, plus it seems to focus on how one feels over a given topic and being able to share that with your spouse in a positive way ... helping the connection process.
Yes it is homework every night, W and I have not been doing it every single night, sometimes its not a good time, being tired or maybe things are going on .. I think so far we do it 4 times a week, I am careful not to press, keeping it light so she doesnt run off back into the tunnel.

You have been separated for 2 years. During that time, did you guys spend much time together other than the back and forth with son?

The reason I am asking is because it seems you have gone from doing your own thing, your GAL "me time" to spending every night with W, usually at her request. Could there be a little emotional overload going on? I want you both so so much to end up happily ever after. Believe me, I am a hopeless romantic, H didn't ruin that for me!

I was thinking about this the other night. During the past 2 years she definitely temp checked the crud out of me. Making sure I didn't go to far off. After I came here .. learned a bit, was able to see things a bit more clear (as clear as the MLC fog-goggles allow) I was able to pick and choose 'fake-family time' I labeled it this to put some bitterness in the cake she ate, it did work, as she knew it was time together with S but not real family time ... that fog was always there and it was nto carefree and real like it once was .. There was always the 4 of us there, W, me, S & that 500lb elephant.
I still GAL, I have football on Sunday Mornings ... church either Sat night or Early Sunday depending on the football schedule. Softball and S's baseball are not running through the summer which gave me open nights .. and yeah have been spending them with W and S ... but will go off by myself for my walks where I take the dog with me. Woke up Friday morning, had the day off .. walked the dog at 5:30a.m. came home and everyone was still aseep .. went out for a morning beach ride on the harley for a couple hours.
I get what you are saying and think it could be a problem if I did drop all my GAL's ... as well as if W did the same. We have talked about that ... and also are trying to develop a balance for us both. Realizing it is healthy.

I just worry that changes in your routine are happening a little fast. It's important you still have your own life and ease into these changes. You really enjoyed your rides on the bike, spending time with buddies, even alone time with S. Are you still doing that?

Yup and yup

[CaliGuy]

Hey Luke. You haven't been heard in your marriage for a long time. I get it..I've been there. Because of that, you are doing everything you can to make sure she hears you. You are terrified of going back to that marriage.

I think you know me well enough by now to know that I try to be fair. I know first hand how much we endure. But I have also seen several mlc's up close and I would not want to be them ever.

Looking at it from her perspective amidst crazytown, she is starting to come to terms with what she's done. She is trying to figure herself out. She is trying to see if the marriage can be saved. She is trying to understand all the changes you have made. Throw in a job loss and man, it's even crazier up in there.

So, as I said, I get your fear. I get your wanting to show her your changes are real. I get that you want to see her all in. But because of all that up there ^^^^, it's going to take time, my friend. It just is.

Aj is right, if you say it, you have to do it..because that's how you built trust and because that's the right thing to do.

Luke, I know you want this to hurry up already. The thing is that it cant work that way. She isn't where you are in the process. She just isn't. What you need to decide is whether you can hang in to see where this goes. If you can, then you have to be patient. She is still struggling. She doesn't have the tools you do.

You are watching way too closely...every word, action, facial expression. That just gets you crazy. Back on the path, sweetie. DB101. GAL, no cheeseless tunnels, etc.

You can do this.

uR ... as always .. the fuzzy 2x4 has been acknowledged

I do want this to hurry up and be over ... you all are right, I also realize its not on my timeline and have been trying to just go with it, let it happen knowing all I can do is push and make it worse.

That being said .. I do try to just let it happen, I do see her starting to deal with things ... albeit slowly but she has made some statements here and there where I just STFU and realize she is still looking inward, better than casting blame my way ... she has some work ahead of her, but at the same time she is terrified I am going to get fed up and jettison.

I worked on detaching a bit this weekend, ironically some bad things happened .. which made it easier. I will update here soon once I can adress you all who take the time to help .. which as always is appreciated ... stinks you all are always right .. lol ... but I get it, I do need to step back and let things unfold.

[CaliGuy]

Cali,
I do understand where you are coming from and do not want to return to the old marriage, however, your w is not on the same page w/you totally. She's still playing catch up and it's going to take some time for her to come out of her crisis fully. Patience! You can't rush the process even though you are starting to see glimmers of light. Patience!

This is the hardest part of the journey for us. We see the MLCer starting to wake up and we begin to think about what we want and we begin to push a little bit. You can't do that...not at this time. She has to face what she's done, accept her flaws and start moving towards a complete reconcilation.

Cali, please, please read the thread that I created on Reconnection. It takes a lot of time, and I do mean time, for them to fully recover. If you push, she will go back inside of herself and it will take far longer than it should. Again, patience, my friend! A lot of patience is needed now.

I truly want to see you and your wife reconcile...but it's on her time clock, not yours. Don't try to rush the process!

job ... thank you .. and yeah you are spot on. I do see W really starting to deal with what has happened, and her flaws ... she has always been a perfectionist, and this crisis, all that happened has really tarnished this for her, has nothing to do with me, I see her really struggling with this .... and at this moment she seems to be punishing herself .. again .. her thing to work out as I can not fix her.

[CaliGuy]

Hi Cali, just checking in to see how you're doing? Hope you had a good 4th July my friend. Do post an update when you get chance..

Take care, Toots x

Thank you Toots ... update to follow

[CaliGuy]

Ok

Again .. thank you everyone .. I do not post here during the weekends but I will pop in via phone, read a bit here n there as I have time, its funny how deep down you think .. I need to do this/that .. then you read people post pretty much just that and it gives you the extra juice just to put it into action.

Thursday night, good night .. W made dinner and we watched a movie.

Friday, I was off .. walked the dog early, then decided to take the Harley out for a nice ride .. down the coast taking pictures as I went ... good 2 hour or so of just GAL'ing and not thinking about much at all. Came back and picked up S, had him help me empty my storage container out .. one more large item and that will save me a couple hundred a month. Worked that night .. then went home.

Sat Morning I cooked myself breakfast and watched some football reruns, was just enjoying the quiet time. W TM asking what we were going to do for the 4th. I went over around noon. Shared some funny talks with W as they were getting ready we were going to go to the park and toss the ball around for a bit. I grabbed the iPad and was reading .... then seen W had the mail open.

Yup .. I peeked, and seen W had emailed herself a picture. Heart sank .. was off OM's Instagram. Was a picture of his kids playing Basketball and his W in the background. I was upset .. however I remained calm. I approached W (after having S go grab his things from his room to make sure he was not there) I calmly gave her the iPad and asked her what this was about. She stuttered and stammered, I shrugged and said something to the effect "Well Thats it then" went to grab my keys to leave, she chased after me. We went back and forth as she tried to explain what it was about ... I was so mad I was shaking. I took S to the park and he and I tossed the ball around, went for a hike ... I actually just let it all go and enjoyed the time with S... leaving my phone in the car the entire time .. which W blew up a bit.
I came back to drop S off ... W asked to talk. At that point I honestly was done but figured .. ok 24 years I will just hear her out. Last week she had coffee with a friend of hers and her friend told her that OM got the job that W had turned down. This upset W as now she was out of work and could have really used that job .. one she suggested to OM but then when it went sour she tried to sabotage that for him. This ate at her all week, then she had the STD reminder and became depressed ... and is upset that OM gets to live his life as if nothing happened while she has to deal with the STD, has no job ... all the self pity stuff one does when depressed. She compares herself to OMW, I am not sure if its a 'why could he pick her over me' thing as I did ask but she did not reply ... We talked a bit about this .. about how she copes with depression and stress, she shared how OM2 helps her at the gym and how she talked to him Friday about it.
The STFU smoothie I was drinking .. well .. good and bad .. she shared her fears about telling me, detached I shared how hiding things like this are not helping, it is not 'trustworthy behavior' and she was upfront and apologized telling me how badly she wants to rebuild our trust and would be open.

We talked it out, I asked very specific questions, if she still loved OM, if there was anything there, where the M and I ranked in all this, of course I got the answers I wanted to hear and I believe 50% of them. ... I decided to let it go for now not wanting to ruin the 4th ... but I also realize this is pressure and W should very well be jumping back into the tunnel. I know .. patience ... patience .. but seriously .. I am done with all this teenage crap. I fear at times I am letting her back into the M to easily .. ironic she is upset OM has his life back and has not suffered any consequences, other than the things she did to herself the same could very well be said about her. I told W that I was going to take S swimming, and suggested what ever she needed to do, delete emails, apps, go through the house and remove anything OM bought, she should clean house out of respect to our M and F if she wants things to work.

After a couple hours .. some fun in the water with S and a sunburn to prove it we came back. She showed me her phone to prove she never contacted OM, deleted the intagram app ... then I looked at it and realized ... OM2 and that discussion on Friday she had mentioned was not on the phone when I looked at it prior to us leaving (was a show me your phone here is mine exchange earlier). Again .. she is hiding things .... she again was afraid how I would take it.
I know this was not the right way to handle it ... but after the 2 years of lies and deceit I am just tired of it all. OM2 is not a threat, I know he isn't but the amount that they share does concern me, especially given the OM and A that happened as a result. I did not tell her OM2 must go .. but I did try to reason with her that all these lies and hiding things are not helping her build trust with me, I became very detached .. just stating she could do as she likes, have however she would like in her life or out of it, just as I was of free will to make the same choice. I am just not at a point I can trust her .. nor is she at a point as you all have said where she is done with the crisis.

She was pretty emotional, I took S and we watched the fireworks at the beach Sat night ... dropped him back off with her and went home.

Sunday (the 3am TM was in full effect) she TM me ... again stating her case trying to get me to understand. I did not reply then she told me I deserved better, I should D her, alot of self pity stuff. I let it go ... not taking bait and realizing this could be a bad point and she might jump back into the tunnel.
She called around 8:30 as I was out walking the dog ... more TM. I finally replied that I was going to church in a couple hours, I did not invite her just letting her know I was going to be unavailable for a bit.

Went to mass, amazing how that helps .. especially since I have been going to that church through this entire crisis, it helps me see how far I have come, and how far I need to go. I continuously prayed in my heart, wanting God to show me what I need to do, I do not believe in D, but honestly I just felt I could not do this anymore, I trust wife to continue to lie and deceive ... and whats worse its like at times she feels entitled to do so. For those who have never been to Catholic mass .. its usually a bit over an hour, towards the end there is a "Peace Be With You" Exchange where you shake hands among those all around you and wish them peace. As we stand up and begin this I receive a tap behind me... was from S, standing next to W. I was honestly shocked and floored, I hid it ...I wished them both peace turned around and just looked at the Crucifix .. perplexed... not sure what God is telling me other than to just stay the course, remain on my path and he will take care of things.
I was going to go to lunch after Mass, invited W and S along ... was a pleasant lunch ... again all 4 of us, W, S , me and that elephant. W asked if I would mind taking S, she was not feeling well .. our fights impact her physically due to the stress, and she apparently slept very little. S and I went to my place, played video games, he had a blast. I made him dinner just about the time W called asking if I would come over and eat with her. So we loaded up and all ate together. W pleaded with me not to fight, just to put things aside and we would discuss them later, I agreed as I am still processing what to do.


So that's where I am at, more inline with the ... 'not making any decisions today' type mindset .. but definitely detached about it all. I thought about it last night and this morning during DogWalk ... I will finish the post sessions as I promised I would and assess where things are at that point. I do analyze things to much .. I do try to make sense out of it all, I know this is not what to do .. that I should focus on the now, try to let go of past events .. things happen in cycles and waves concerning that. Big thing is trust .. she seemed to be trying to regain it .. but the two instances prove she is not there, she is still dealing with things, she has a ways to go and who knows where I will be at when/if she ever gets through it all.

Day by day ... even with all this I am good .. not devastated, seeing it for what it is .. MLC crazy and all the joys it brings.

[Sotto]

Hi Cali, I'm sorry to read all of that - Ugh! It's evident that your W does want to try, but she is still having wobbles and isn't maybe strong enough right now to go cold turkey on everything - she gets drawn back in a little.

Hopefully you can see it as a wobble or setback and not a deal breaker. It's not ideal that there is some ongoing 'traffic' there, but it sounds like you made your feelings absolutely clear and will move forward on that basis. You know already that Cali will be just fine, however things ultimately work out...and I think your W is trying to catch up, but stumbling at times.

Thanks for your kind post on my thread. I agree - the British Divorce system needs reforming!

Take care my friend x