as_it_is - my adventure continues

[NDY]

Well ok. My turn now.

What behaviours specifically is she talking about? Also, how did you get from A to Z so quickly? You see, we both need to ground ourselves in the here and now. So you are right, you can't build trust nor demonstrate your changes until your interaction with your W increase. But right now she doesn't want those interactions to increase. So the objective? You're a clever man. List out the steps. Good idea for some goals aka DB.

Thoughts?

[asitis]

I'm not sure about getting from A to Z so quickly, so maybe some clarification.

As to my baby steps. Right now I'm just keeping the interactions pleasant, working through my emotions until I can get back to the happiness I generally feel with my life other than the M (I am genuinely in a good place now personally, despite the M problems), and focusing on the kids. My DB coach & I talked (I my IC raised this earlier, but I didn't fully embrace it) about how Ws really notice the behavior of their Hs with the kids, and that I should focus on my interactions with them. It is to keep improving those for their own sake, but with the side benefit that it will demonstrate that I am not the old person.

The problematic behavior was being too quick to give advice and in a way that came across as superior, being quick to get irritable, little jokes that came across as belittling or at least not flattering, and a tendency to put my needs above hers. I also didn't compliment, praise, or appreciate enough (one of the wonderful inheritances from my family upbringing that I really detest now). Over the past 14 months, I've devoted a whole lot of time & effort to dealing with underlying issues that triggered those behaviors and developed new habits and patterns. It has been a lot of work, and it started out to save the M, but has become something I do now first and foremost because it is who I want to be regardless.

I tend now to greet my W, then quickly jump right into interacting and playing with the kids. If there is a discussion, I keep it light, listen if she wants to talk, but also am the one to bring the interaction to a close (you know, hey, I've got to get going kind of thing). My relationship w/ my kids has been wonderful and growing for a long time now and is one of the greatest gifts I've had for all the pain and difficulty of the M problems.

Unfortunately, I also know that it takes a long time for those closest to us to really notice the changes and start responding to the changed person. Often they are the last, so patience is critical.

My coach & are working on attraction, continuing to watch for backsliding on pursuit behavior, and other little changes, in addition to focus on the kids. The hope is that with a stop of the pursuer-distancer dynamic (which already was well under way, but I've learned the hard way that there is usually something else we miss that we have to notice and work on even after we think we've eliminated the pursuing behavior), a bit of attraction, and even a tiny bit of improvement on the trust via the brief interactions with her and her seeing my interactions w/ the kids, that she slowly opens up to a bit of friendship, initiating contact, etc. This then allows for more interaction which helps with the trust and bonding issues, which then hopefully will get her to the point where she decides to make some effort.

DB coach agrees that there is some MLC stuff going on, so the usual caveats that it will take longer to see signs of change in her and that the erratic behavior will make it harder to be sure of those signs apply.

I have my next phone session tomorrow to keep fine tuning and adjusting the plan.

Thanks NDY. Just having to explain what I was doing and what the plan was helped improve PMA on this frustration.

[NDY]

I'm not sure about getting from A to Z so quickly, so maybe some clarification.

Ok, I was thinking about this...

We are separated. We see each other for brief snippets around child care and transitions of the kids between us. One of the most frustrating things I wrestle with is that my W says (I know don't trust what they say, but in this case there is at least a big kernel of truth to it when I look at my sitch as objectively as I can) that she doesn't feel she can trust me not to behave the old ways that were painful to her. We are both in agreement that I acted in ways that were painful to her, so this is not in debate (how much and lack of acknowledgement of my good behavior we are in disagreement over).I have not acted in any of the ways she has worried about for a good while. Yet, as long as we only have this minimal contact, how the H*ll can she possibly think that trust can develop?

I thought actions were the way forward. So I thought it strange that you had managed to get to the point where your W was debating your changes because of your actions i.e. your actions didn't reflect what you were really thinking. However, I know i'm not articulating myself very well here but I'll continue...

The problematic behavior was being too quick to give advice and in a way that came across as superior, being quick to get irritable, little jokes that came across as belittling or at least not flattering, and a tendency to put my needs above hers. I also didn't compliment, praise, or appreciate enough (one of the wonderful inheritances from my family upbringing that I really detest now). Over the past 14 months, I've devoted a whole lot of time & effort to dealing with underlying issues that triggered those behaviors and developed new habits and patterns. It has been a lot of work, and it started out to save the M, but has become something I do now first and foremost because it is who I want to be regardless.

ok, so this I get. Basically you've chipped away at her self esteem for a long time. So playing with the kids more ain't gonna cut mustard is it? Look, I fell fowl of not connecting as well. Wanting to be the fixer, knowing better etc. If done right it works. Clearly we didn't get it right. For Christ sake man I'm Scottish. Sarcasim is in our blood. But the next paragraph...

I tend now to greet my W, then quickly jump right into interacting and playing with the kids. If there is a discussion, I keep it light, listen if she wants to talk, but also am the one to bring the interaction to a close (you know, hey, I've got to get going kind of thing). My relationship w/ my kids has been wonderful and growing for a long time now and is one of the greatest gifts I've had for all the pain and difficulty of the M problems.

How about just saying Hi, how are you and then listen to the woman. And I do mean listen.

Unfortunately, I also know that it takes a long time for those closest to us to really notice the changes and start responding to the changed person. Often they are the last, so patience is critical.

IDK if this is true. Not a specialist but as a layman I recon your W is watching EVERY move you make. Just my opinion.

My coach & are working on attraction, continuing to watch for backsliding on pursuit behavior, and other little changes, in addition to focus on the kids. The hope is that with a stop of the pursuer-distancer dynamic (which already was well under way, but I've learned the hard way that there is usually something else we miss that we have to notice and work on even after we think we've eliminated the pursuing behavior), a bit of attraction, and even a tiny bit of improvement on the trust via the brief interactions with her and her seeing my interactions w/ the kids, that she slowly opens up to a bit of friendship, initiating contact, etc. This then allows for more interaction which helps with the trust and bonding issues, which then hopefully will get her to the point where she decides to make some effort.

That's why analyst's are a great resource but rubbish pals. Tend to over analyse everything.

[asitis]

Was looking over my notes in preparation for my coaching call tomorrow. One of the things my coach suggested in my interactions w/ my W that I haven't been as good at remembering is being emotionally generous and focused on my W rather than myself in a very general, vague way.

Jody (my coach) suggested I ask something like (in a cheerful, friendly voice) "Hey, how are you doing today?" If she doesn't seem receptive to responding don't push it at all and move right to focusing on the kids.

The other thing I have to follow up on is that Jody said I need to "eliminate the spouse relationship" from my interaction. I know we talked about it and I remember thinking I got what she was saying, but now it doesn't quite add up. I get what the advice is in the sense of generally, but I'll have to come back to it to see if she thinks I was doing anything specific that struck her as spouse relationship or if there was specific advice on something to do differently.

Just jotting down my thoughts as I work on things. Not sure for what purpose, but there you go.

[NDY]

We crossed posted. But read what I said then send me $300 :-)

[asitis]

NDY,

Ah, now I get the A to Z thing. Well there are the stopping pursuit changes that are more recent, and the eliminating the behavior that chipped away at her self-confidence and image. The latter I've been working on since a year ago April, and the changes have been in place for quite a while now. Still, but putting it this way, I should not see the more recent changes as distinct from the longer-term changes. To her, the pursuit and other non-DB behaviors are all part and parcel of the larger trust issue, so it really hasn't been that long from a rebuilding trust perspective now has it? That is a helpful way to see it. Thanks NDY.

On the stopping and saying Hi, see my previous post. In fairness, I've been doing this more, and I do listen even if she isn't really all that interested in opening up. But there is more pleasant back and forth. So, that is part of the plan before jumping right in with the kids. I haven't been doing as well on that as I could, but my point about moving on with the kids, was not to come on strong and focus mostly on the kids. Obviously, something I need to talk with my coach more about.

On the overanalyzing everything: guilty as charged. I have a doctorate (although not in anything mental health related), and you don't tend to get that without compusive overanalyzing.

And, you're right that in the current sitch it may not take as long for the changes to register as it would without the crisis, but still the people we are around the most tend to build up a reactive patterning based on patterns of our behavior. Change our behavior, and the other person still sees you through that story of who you are rather than who you actually become. In a sense they don't see you. This is partly why couples disconnect over time and why MWD recommends using beginner's mind: we come to see the image and story of the other person we have built up rather than seeing the person afresh. I hope that her watching me like a hawk will help her see the changes more quickly, but I'm trying not to get my hopes up that she will see through the story she has painted about me and the M very quickly. We'll both be overjoyed if you are right.

Thanks again NDY. Great questions and comments.

[asitis]

Stay watching your post box!

[asitis]

So, today got to watch the kids while W taught a morning summer class. Older S6 says "I hate being w/ mom, when can we be with your." First, they put it this way when they really mean they miss the other parent, and I've been on the receiving end of the "I hate you" when they miss my W. W's niece is in town & W has had some of her student friends over in part because they are niece's age, so S has had to compete for mom's attention and they haven't been doing much fun for them. They just got back from over a week of fun with me.

Still, this is the first time reversal of the usual statements from S on parental preference. I of course said, you don't hate being with mom, you just are missing me. Besides, I'm right here now, so what do you want to do?

Had 2nd db coach session. Good stuff & she saw some signs I missed that there may be some transitioning to the next stage where there is some reciprocation (this usually follows when there is improvement/progress). Little things that I wouldn't have picked up on but her experience has shown to be more significant that we notice.

Good, friendly interactions w/ W & niece (who I love & and she adores me, so it is great that nothing is souring). Lots of good humor. Asked W's thoughts about a project we are working on re: the house, and got happy response (both the idea and that I asked her advice rather than presented it as I have tended to, I think).

Then I had my IC in the afternoon. Haven't been to see her for about a month because of vacation and schedule problems. She said repeatedly that there are some significant changes that are very obvious and that she is extremely pleased that I'm in a really good place both personally and in dealing with the M. She said it is really strikingly obvious that I've moved to a really good place and that it bodes very well no matter what, but also that my W can't help but see the changes.

We talked some about the MLC issue and some of my W's crazy statements (like not seeing wanting a D as her breaking her M vows - wow that was a doozy and required multiple STFU smoothies and not thinking she had any issues when she has not two or three months earlier talked about issues that she thinks will likely have her in therapy for a very long time or the rest of her life). IC agreed that W is getting a blunt message from her IC (my IC recommended W's IC and they are in the same office) that any relationships would be a really, really bad idea at this time for her & that she is in no shape to have a healthy R with someone else. Of course, what W hears is another matter, but coupled with 0 evidence to the contrary, was a tiny bit reassuring (teensy tiny).

Have my meditation group this evening, which I have missed the last 2 weeks due to vacation. Miss sitting with a group, so I'm looking forward to getting back.

Picked up some of my pottery that was fired over vacation. One piece got screwed up from someone else's piece coming into contact, but otherwise fairly happy with the results (you never know if something will blow up or how the glazing will turn out until they are done). Wish I had an opportunity to do some more pottery in the next few weeks, but the earliest I can get some time in will be end of July. It has been one of those great things I took up during the S and am thoroughly enjoying having the chance to do.

Anyway, excellent day all around. Never know what tomorrow brings, but it is always nice to take note of and appreciate the good things.

[asitis]

Not much to report, but I figured I'd throw one little nagging thing that I'm trying to think through.

My W & I rotate between our house and a shared apartment during the S, so that the kids can stay in the house for stability. This has worked out fairly well. Neither of us disturbs the other while that person is in the apartment. If there really is some reason for coming over (e.g., when W was very ill she asked if I could bring some medicine from house over, or we arranged for kids to come stay over for the morning at the apartment for convenience), it is clear to both of us that this is done only with advance, explicit permission. Neither of us have violated that. I also don't swing by in the car to check to see if her car is there etc., & I've assumed she isn't (checking up on me hasn't been her MO - almost wish it were at least a bit if you know what I mean).

So, the issue. The apartment has a pool. Unlike area pools, it is free. The apartment is only a couple minutes drive from house. Kids love going to the pool. Wife has been regularly bringing the kids to the pool to swim late in the day on the days she has the kids and I am at the apartment. We talked about how the pool was an attractive plus when we rented the apartment as a cheap thing to do with the kids, but I didn't really think through that this would mean the parent at the house would drive the kids over.

Often I see that they are there, as it happens to be the time I use the apartment's fitness room, which is next to the pool. Also, when I walk in from my car or out two it, you can see the place where she would park when she brings the kids to the pool.

She doesn't stop in or let me know. She often has no idea I'm in the fitness room (although she knows I work out regularly & she knows I've always tended to work out later in the day), although at least once my younger son saw me and came running over to the window and she waved when they walked by to leave.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand it isn't really a big deal. Kids are having fun & no money is being spent (our nice local public pool costs like $16 for 1 adult & 2 kids, and given that we rarely spend more than an hour, it makes sense to use the free pool more often). Still, whenever she comes and goes, she gets to see if my car is there. I doubt she is really checking up (but you never know). I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the same thing as she is the one who wants her space and it would seem to violate respecting her wishes.

I also get the reminder of her and the fact that I'm not with the kids, which isn't a big deal, but I don't need it.

So, I don't really feel like making a big deal about this. At the same time, given our sitch, I wouldn't really feel comfortable doing the same thing, and I'm not all that anxious see how she reacts. Raising the issue seems a bit awkward to me, as it makes it seem like a bigger deal than it really is and that I'm reacting to her (which is not part of my game plan right now).

And before anybody asks, there is really no reason to suspect that she is trying to run into anyone else by going to the pool. Even if there were, it isn't the issue as I'd rather have that out where I'm likely to see it anyway than chase it underground.

I thought typing this out would help sort through it, but I don't think it really did anything for me. Let it sit for a while.

[Sotto]

Hi asitis, I wouldn't worry too much about the pool. It sounds as though it is a nice thing for the kids and as long as it isn't too intrusive for you, I would let it pass.

You may even turn it to your advantage on occasion - heading out for a bite to eat - looking and smelling nice, and run into your W on your way out...

Sounds like you are doing really well with everything, and I'm pleased to see how much your posts are helping others too.

Take care, T :-)