So for those of you that have helped me so far I want to say thank you. I am learning. I have continued to repeat the same mistakes. It's amazing how your emotions can overcome your logical mind. I KNOW what I need to do. On some occasions I just ignore logic and react emotionally. It always turns out badly.
I realize that snooping is wrong. However I have to confess that this morning I followed up on my W's certainty that a piece of evidence I confronted her with was misleading, and that she was innocent of what I thought had happened. I looked deeper. Guess what I found? She was right. I was wrong. I accused her for no good reason. I thought I knew, but I didn't.
This is a valuable lesson. Just because you think you know, you may not know everything. Now I have started a new argument, accused, been proven wrong, & pushed her further away. I'll have to apologize to my wife (who still has an active Ashley Madison profile) foe falsely accusing her in this case.
Once that is done, it's back to working on me, working on detaching, and focusing on what I can control (myself).
What are some things that you guys do to pass idle time and get your mind off your WW spouse?
I find myself wanting to go to bed earlier because she goes in her room alone and I know she is in there chatting. I figure I won't stress over it if I am unconscious.
When I asked if you had expressed to her your regret of the exposure, I did not mean that you should. However, i assume you had already told her at that pont in your thread. I wish that you hadn't, but what's done is done. It just places you in a weakened position. That was why I wanted you to find Starsky.
Your position needs to be from a place of strength. Remember, she has lost respect for you. All the sit-down discussions in the world will not fix this MR as long as she has resentment, disrespect, and rebellion in her heart. The approach you used in the past will not work now. The only thing that will turn this M around will be if YOU change the dynamics in the relationship. That is what you need to focus on.
Quote:
Broke another rule and discussed it with her. Says she is lonely while we work it out and wants someone to talk to. I feel no better.
Oh please! Listen to how flimsy this sounds. She is saying she should have a hall pass, and wants you to compromise the integrity of the M..........b/c she's lonely while working it out? She is not working anything out! She is cheating, plain and simple, and she doesn't want to stop.
You cannot "reason" with her. In the past, maybe the two of you could talk things out and that would help in fixing the problem. It does not work with a wayward! She is not the gal you M. She has changed and if you continue doing what doesn't work, then your M is doomed. You have to change the dynamics in the relationship. So far, you have watched her. That doesn't change anything.
Quote:
How do you know when they are done? Is it when you see real remorse and openness about all these things?
I don't remember a case where it was one inclusive action. There were cases when the WW pretended, but was not authentic about her feelings and actually continued the deception.
The progress is comparable to drug addiction. It may take more than one attempt before she finally is serious enough to stick it out. It is complex, b/c depression is intertwined and may linger after the withdrawal. The feeling of emptiness is not something she wants to welcome back. From reports, many WW's are terrified their attraction for the LBH will not return and they will be stuck in a loveless M.
This is not a quick process. It is not easy for either person in the M. The progress is slower than you ever believed and some couples do not make it through the piecing. I am not trying to pull you down, but you are not being realistic ..........b/c you don't understand or accept fully how much she has changed, and the time will take for her to work out her own issues (providing that she wants to do so).
Quote:
I did re-read it. Thanks. I just wish I had some positive sign but so far I have been drawing her in with DB (or she is manipulating me) and then pushing her away when I backslide. It is having a negative net effect. I must truly detach and that has been very difficult for me.
You may have re-read it, but when you ask questions that were covered, then I wonder if your brain is not quiet enough for you to see it. Understandable, and you certainly are not the only one.
If she decides to stop the online stuff (and all other inappropriate activity), she will be willing to commit to a transparency plan. That is where she gives accountability. She won't be secretive with her phone or computer, and you will be free to look at it whenever you choose. If she protests, gets defensive, throws excuses of privacy, etc., then she's not authentic and is only pretending. The lies should stop as well as excuses to go 45 min away to get a sandwich, etc., ( BTW, I think you are deceiving yourself about that one.). The remorse may not come immediately, or it may comes in stages. The biggest sign is her attitude. That will always give away the WW if she's not being real. I don't mean that she will be all lovey dovie, or have her moments of irritation. I am talking about anger, self-centerness, cold/distant, disrespectful, resentful, unwilling to cooperate or work at the MR, etc.
In short, stop looking for positive signs, right now. Newcomer LBH'S want to see signs that will give them hope. Here's the thing, she is still involved in the online stuff, and you cannot believe what she tells you. You cannot trust her. You cannot confide your feelings or actions in her. You have to make your decisions based on your own core values, and the new information learned here. If you are a spiritual/religious person, then place your hope in those beliefs, but don't depend or base hope on some sign from her.
Please start spending some quiet time away from her and the house. You have to find balance within yourself. Stop trying different methods and then defeating yourself when you don't see what you want immediately.
Ask yourself what you really want. What are your deal breakers? (One of Starsky's questions). Don't make your focus all about getting the girl back.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
When I asked if you had expressed to her your regret of the exposure, I did not mean that you should. However, i assume you had already told her at that pont in your thread. I wish that you hadn't, but what's done is done. It just places you in a weakened position. That was why I wanted you to find Starsky.
Your position needs to be from a place of strength. Remember, she has lost respect for you. All the sit-down discussions in the world will not fix this MR as long as she has resentment, disrespect, and rebellion in her heart. The approach you used in the past will not work now. The only thing that will turn this M around will be if YOU change the dynamics in the relationship. That is what you need to focus on.
Quote:
Broke another rule and discussed it with her. Says she is lonely while we work it out and wants someone to talk to. I feel no better.
Oh please! Listen to how flimsy this sounds. She is saying she should have a hall pass, and wants you to compromise the integrity of the M..........b/c she's lonely while working it out? She is not working anything out! She is cheating, plain and simple, and she doesn't want to stop.
You cannot "reason" with her. In the past, maybe the two of you could talk things out and that would help in fixing the problem. It does not work with a wayward! She is not the gal you M. She has changed and if you continue doing what doesn't work, then your M is doomed. You have to change the dynamics in the relationship. So far, you have watched her. That doesn't change anything.
Quote:
How do you know when they are done? Is it when you see real remorse and openness about all these things?
I don't remember a case where it was one inclusive action. There were cases when the WW pretended, but was not authentic about her feelings and actually continued the deception.
The progress is comparable to drug addiction. It may take more than one attempt before she finally is serious enough to stick it out. It is complex, b/c depression is intertwined and may linger after the withdrawal. The feeling of emptiness is not something she wants to welcome back. From reports, many WW's are terrified their attraction for the LBH will not return and they will be stuck in a loveless M.
This is not a quick process. It is not easy for either person in the M. The progress is slower than you ever believed and some couples do not make it through the piecing. I am not trying to pull you down, but you are not being realistic ..........b/c you don't understand or accept fully how much she has changed, and the time will take for her to work out her own issues (providing that she wants to do so).
Quote:
I did re-read it. Thanks. I just wish I had some positive sign but so far I have been drawing her in with DB (or she is manipulating me) and then pushing her away when I backslide. It is having a negative net effect. I must truly detach and that has been very difficult for me.
You may have re-read it, but when you ask questions that were covered, then I wonder if your brain is not quiet enough for you to see it. Understandable, and you certainly are not the only one.
If she decides to stop the online stuff (and all other inappropriate activity), she will be willing to commit to a transparency plan. That is where she gives accountability. She won't be secretive with her phone or computer, and you will be free to look at it whenever you choose. If she protests, gets defensive, throws excuses of privacy, etc., then she's not authentic and is only pretending. The lies should stop as well as excuses to go 45 min away to get a sandwich, etc., ( BTW, I think you are deceiving yourself about that one.). The remorse may not come immediately, or it may comes in stages. The biggest sign is her attitude. That will always give away the WW if she's not being real. I don't mean that she will be all lovey dovie, or have her moments of irritation. I am talking about anger, self-centerness, cold/distant, disrespectful, resentful, unwilling to cooperate or work at the MR, etc.
In short, stop looking for positive signs, right now. Newcomer LBH'S want to see signs that will give them hope. Here's the thing, she is still involved in the online stuff, and you cannot believe what she tells you. You cannot trust her. You cannot confide your feelings or actions in her. You have to make your decisions based on your own core values, and the new information learned here. If you are a spiritual/religious person, then place your hope in those beliefs, but don't depend or base hope on some sign from her.
Please start spending some quiet time away from her and the house. You have to find balance within yourself. Stop trying different methods and then defeating yourself when you don't see what you want immediately.
Ask yourself what you really want. What are your deal breakers? (One of Starsky's questions). Don't make your focus all about getting the girl back.
Sandi,
Thanks for putting so much thought and effort into this. I am ready to let her go. I have no other choice. I have to let go of my marriage. I don't know why this is so hard? We were both checked out for so long. BOTH of us. I was 50% of the problem. Then I discover this cheating and BAM suddenly I want my wife and I want to be Don Juan and have a 2nd honeymoon and a white picket fence and grow old together.
It's crazy! Why would I ignore her for so long and then fight so hard to save the M? I liken the cheating revelation to a lightning bolt that shocked me awake. I know I want my wife and my family.
I realize now that I've already lost it. Clinging to it won't help. She has mentally left. When she crossed that threshold I lost her. Can I get it back? Maybe. But not as a devious whining police officer trying to "Hold her accountable" I will do it from a renewed position of strength. A new MAN who acts based on his own convictions and does not ask her permission.
I have 40 years of the other guy to unlearn. It's going to be a hard road. In the end if our marriage is lost, at least my next relationship will start on better footing.
I am not a spiritual man. I wish I were. I need everything and everyone in my corner that I can get!!!
Me: 39 W: 38 T-18yrs M-13yrs 2 Girls: 10 & 3 EA BD 5/24/15 Separate Bedrooms 6/12/15 PA BD 7/3/15 Separate Residence 8/8/15
Permit me to jump in here if you would, I think we're in the same mindset. In hindsight it's clear to see where we made mistakes in our M, it's almost like we were in a fog of our own (not the same A fog talked about here). I never even considered that my M would come to an end, nor that that was a possibility. Not believing it was a possibility left lots of room to overlook how our W's were feeling and what their experience was, in addition to not addressing the things that made us act out of alignment with our highest values or needs.
You may not be a spiritual man, but it sounds like you've had a spiritual awakening. I have. I have not found God, or any external entity, only my own desire to live in a way very differently than I did in my M. God willing...for lack of a better term, that will be with my W. If not though, the work doesn't stop. The aggressive self improvement, the obsession with staying in the present moment, and the emotional intelligence that's developed from having your world ripped out from under you can only be described as a spiritual awakening in my book.
In order to become someone that you weren't in the past, an entirely new view of life needs to be adopted. It sounds like you are doing just that.
Keep on the path my friend, you're right about having 40 years to unlearn, or 40 years to build upon.
PP
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Permit me to jump in here if you would, I think we're in the same mindset. In hindsight it's clear to see where we made mistakes in our M, it's almost like we were in a fog of our own (not the same A fog talked about here). I never even considered that my M would come to an end, nor that that was a possibility. Not believing it was a possibility left lots of room to overlook how our W's were feeling and what their experience was, in addition to not addressing the things that made us act out of alignment with our highest values or needs.
You may not be a spiritual man, but it sounds like you've had a spiritual awakening. I have. I have not found God, or any external entity, only my own desire to live in a way very differently than I did in my M. God willing...for lack of a better term, that will be with my W. If not though, the work doesn't stop. The aggressive self improvement, the obsession with staying in the present moment, and the emotional intelligence that's developed from having your world ripped out from under you can only be described as a spiritual awakening in my book.
In order to become someone that you weren't in the past, an entirely new view of life needs to be adopted. It sounds like you are doing just that.
Keep on the path my friend, you're right about having 40 years to unlearn, or 40 years to build upon.
PP
Hey PigPen. I'm sorry, but I have to picture you with a little cloud of dirt swirling around you at all times.
You are right about the awakening. And I'd be lying if I said I hadn't hit my knees on a couple of occasions to appeal to God to take this cup from me. Perhaps he will. But he won't change her free will, and he won't likely send me an angel. The only thing God can do is grant me the strength to endure what must be endured, and to change what must be changed.
After a lot of reading, reflection, and some therapy sessions, what I have seen in myself, I am ashamed of. The sneaky manipulating guy that sometimes gets what he needs by controlling others in a variety of ways. That is OVER. It HAS to be. How can I continue and have any self respect? What effect would that dynamic have on my marriage if it continues? If it doesn't, what will it do to my next relationship? How would it impact my children? IT MUST STOP.
I say all this as much for my own benefit as anyone else's. It's easier said than done. I knew what was needed 2 weeks ago, and I failed. I knew a week ago, and I failed. I knew on Friday, and I failed again. I am just about out of chances. I MUST SUCCEED!!!
Me: 39 W: 38 T-18yrs M-13yrs 2 Girls: 10 & 3 EA BD 5/24/15 Separate Bedrooms 6/12/15 PA BD 7/3/15 Separate Residence 8/8/15
Hey PigPen. I'm sorry, but I have to picture you with a little cloud of dirt swirling around you at all times.
^^^^^^^^^^ Sorry hijack in place...LOL!! This made my day (does not take much these days) I have actually been curious, so now I have to ask. Any particular reason for the name that you want to share??
Last edited by BW05; 06/21/1511:06 PM.
Me: 42 H: 40 M: 12 H moved out - 8/2015 I filed - 8/2015
I foresee a time in the near future when my wife will openly leave the house dressed up to impress other men. She will leave with only a cursory explanation of when she intends to return (for the kids). The old me would implode under these conditions. The suspicion and anger and pain would be unbearable.
I know this because she has said that while we are separated and our marriage is uncertain, she feels the right to seek company elsewhere. She says that she has made physical changes that people notice and she wants to "get out there". She used the analogy of a new car in the garage that she isn't allowed to drive. I have a clue what's coming.
What are some strategies to keep from driving yourself insane while you work to fully detach? Ideas, tips, please!?
Me: 39 W: 38 T-18yrs M-13yrs 2 Girls: 10 & 3 EA BD 5/24/15 Separate Bedrooms 6/12/15 PA BD 7/3/15 Separate Residence 8/8/15
For me mate boundaries and 180's. Has helped my sanity but not my M. Think the sanity is more important right now.
If the old you would implode. Then don't. But you do reserve the right to make sure your house is secure at a sensible time. Know what I mean?
And the detachment thing. It's difficult, I still struggle but once you get a grip and it starts to take hold you will be ok about this.
I take it you are still living together? Perhaps that's something to think about. But you stay right where you are.
Peace
Me:43 Her:42 M:14 S:9 EA started 2014/03 (or there abouts) PA started 2014/05/30 BD:2014/11/05 I left 2015/10/01 I returned 2015/05/02 She left 2015/06/10 OM still on the go.
I have read through your sitch and you are receiving quite bit of advice. Some of it is excellent, but some of it is non-sense and confusing. I hesitate to give you my own advice for fear of muddying your waters even more, giving you so many options and so many things to think about that you are driving yourself mentally crazy.
I will say a few things.
1) Listen to Sandi and listen to Bond. They are invested in you and those are two long-term veterans who know what they are talking about (especially sandi who has been in shoes very similar to your W's...what a better asset to have on your side!). Encouraging each other is great, but many times - ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ARE MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES REPEATEDLY - what we need is a kick in the seat of the pants. So if their posts (or mine later on) seem heavy-handed, it's because it sounds like that's what you need.
2) SLOW DOWN. You appear to be trying to fast forward through this process at an incredible rate. I understand the pain and anxiety can be seemingly unbearable, but you cannot fast-track this process. We can cook a thanksgiving turkey at 350 degrees for 6 hours, but we all know what happens if we try to cook it at 700 degrees for three hours (it turns out like the bird on Christmas Vacation).
This is a long process. I understand you are scrambling right now, but scrambling will not help you in any way. It's time to calm down, gather yourself, get your bearings, develop a list of goals, set a plan, and relentlessly pursue your journey forward.
Are you on board?
-PM
Last edited by PatientMan; 06/22/1509:58 PM.
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
