hold on! - 10

[Sotto]

Hi U-turn, sounds like a productive meeting with your L. Yes, they are not pro-marriage are they? I think mine is a bit frustrated that I merely want to get the house sold and separate finances - not actually file for D. But you just have to instruct them in your chosen course of action. I agree about the fees - hair raising (I'm in the wrong job.) I try to do as little as possible to waste my L's time.

In terms of guilt and shame. I have read that guilt is more about feeling 'I did something bad' and shame 'I am bad.' Brene Brown has written some interesting stuff on shame, and also has a couple of TED talks..

Good luck with everything :-)

[SunnyB]

Something that I said caused her to ask me if I felt shame or guilt about this whole mess. I didn't really know what the difference between these two things. As I described my reluctance to tell anyone about my situation, and how people might think this or that that we got D because u-turn is too boring or too quiet or not forceful enough, are feelings of guilt. I don't know what this means for me, but it seems to be something I should address.

U, I'm gonna admit that before BD I had a very different view of who got D. People that were dysfunctional and couldn't make it work out, that's who (said while looking down nose at them). My how things have changed. After BD, I didn't tell anyone at all for the longest time, partly because I didn't want it to get back to my kids who didn't know, but partly because I was just sure they'd view me as a failure and shun me socially. And truth is, I don't get invitations to the couples BBQs anymore, but I choose to believe that it's because they feel awkward, not that it's really about me. And I've met a whole group of single people who never knew my H, and don't care about him in the slightest, much less why I'm D. I could have run off with the mailman and these new people would neither judge nor care. It's kind of liberating. I encourage you to address the shame, guilt, and whatever other perceptions you have around your sich, you'll probably feel a whole lot better afterwards.

P.S. See what I did there?

[u-turn]

Something that I said caused her to ask me if I felt shame or guilt about this whole mess. I didn't really know what the difference between these two things. As I described my reluctance to tell anyone about my situation, and how people might think this or that, or that we got D because u-turn is too boring or too quiet or not forceful enough, are feelings of guilt shame. I don't know what this means for me, but it seems to be something I should address.

Damnit - I messed that one up, meant to say shame - see, I guess I really don't know the difference

[u-turn]

Thanks Toots - He seemed to be "on board" with making this as simple and non-confrontational as possible to keep fees down, but sometimes that is not controllable depending on the other party.

I thought I was "over" those feeling of comparing myself to OM, and feeling like it is my fault. I guess those feelings are somewhere in there yet.

[u-turn]

Sunny - I understand that completely and have had those exact thoughts (good thing W&I are not like that / that will NEVER happen to us ).

I knew very few people that are divorced, but many that we would say - "why on earth are they married?"

I am starting to talk a little to people I am close to about my situation and they seem to not be judgmental in front of me anyway.

I think there will be many things that will make me feel a whole lot better - I see - nice one

[JellyB]

Hi U-turn, I'm not really posting a lot as still in hospital, but just watched you to know that I am keeping up on your sitch and wishing you well. Lots of love JB..ps Shame's on of my little burdens too...much too heavy must put it down sometime xxx take care

[Vanilla]

U

Who knows why W thinks the crazy making thoughts and actions she does. Your brains will be as scrambled as hers if you try to unravel that Gordian knot.

let it unfold in time, it will.

L seems solid, if you want a second opinion then get one. Keep all your cards to yourself, no need to reveal your hand. Fins are your strength and stability. DUI and other offences, that is public record stuff.

Your own special brand of WW is on the slow trail to destruction, it is unkind to prolong it by enabling WW.

Can I discuss guilt and shame? They are very different in my view:

Guilt is about the things we do. I felt guilty because I ate too much and in secret . I felt guilt because of screaming banshee. Guilt can be a healthy motivator for change. I feel guilty because I neglected my Fins and business and it motivates me to action. It is a powerful tool.

Shame is about the things we are. In essence we keep what is shameful secret. My H was ashamed of his gambling and kept it secret, I felt ashamed that H abused me. Deeply ashamed. Shame creates distress in our lives. Shame needs to see the light of day, it can be healed with work. We should not feel shame for who another is, me for my H being an abuser, you for WW and her DUI. We can't cure it, we can't control it nor did we create it. It's their issue.

U and Jb i came across TED talk resources that may be helpful, it might have been Jim that drew these to my attention. But i know I watched these TED talks many times : Berne Brown on Shame and Vulnerability and very recently Monica Lewinski in a remarkable keynote speech about shame, the young Monica was press Pillored and yet she too was a victim as a young exposed intern. I commend these to you.

I hope that's helpful, I think you are truly ready to explore the issues as recently U I sense that you are truly growing. I am enjoying this development and await the next phase with anticipation. Truly that is coming like a slow train.

V

[Cadet]

Can I discuss guilt and shame?
They are very different in my view:

Guilt is about the things we do. I felt guilty because I ate too much and in secret . I felt guilt because of screaming banshee. Guilt can be a healthy motivator for change. I feel guilty because I neglected my Fins and business and it motivates me to action. It is a powerful tool.

Shame is about the things we are. In essence we keep what is shameful secret. My H was ashamed of his gambling and kept it secret, I felt ashamed that H abused me. Deeply ashamed. Shame creates distress in our lives. Shame needs to see the light of day, it can be healed with work. We should not feel shame for who another is, me for my H being an abuser, you for WW and her DUI. We can't cure it, we can't control it nor did we create it. It's their issue.

Shame and guilt are two different stages of child development according to Erickson

Shame vs Autonomy coming at 2-3 years old
and
Guilt vs Initiative coming at 3-5 years old.

So this can some times be a clue in where a child's growth is stunted
when as an adult they have not learned one or two of these traits.

Just my two cents.

[Vanilla]

Can I discuss guilt and shame?
They are very different in my view:

Guilt is about the things we do. I felt guilty because I ate too much and in secret . I felt guilt because of screaming banshee. Guilt can be a healthy motivator for change. I feel guilty because I neglected my Fins and business and it motivates me to action. It is a powerful tool.

Shame is about the things we are. In essence we keep what is shameful secret. My H was ashamed of his gambling and kept it secret, I felt ashamed that H abused me. Deeply ashamed. Shame creates distress in our lives. Shame needs to see the light of day, it can be healed with work. We should not feel shame for who another is, me for my H being an abuser, you for WW and her DUI. We can't cure it, we can't control it nor did we create it. It's their issue.

Shame and guilt are two different stages of child development according to Erickson

Shame vs Autonomy coming at 2-3 years old
and
Guilt vs Initiative coming at 3-5 years old.

So this can some times be a clue in where a child's growth is stunted
when as an adult they have not learned one or two of these traits.

Just my two cents.

Interesting Cadet, could debate it a little. I am not so sure about dear old Milton and some of his psychology of development. Milton thought trance states could not be induced in children too but we know differently. We do know children appear to feel guilt and thought that children felt ashamed when younger. But as for development of adaptive patterns these are not thought to happen automatically but are responsive and llearned. They can be taught as skill sets even to adults.

V

[Cadet]

There could not be two men more different; Erik Erikson, European émigré, psychologist, child psychoanalyst and Milton Erickson, Wisconsin farmer’s son, struck down by polio in his young age, choosing medicine as a default career. They would both rise to fame in their lifetimes; Milton Erickson credited as the foremost authority of his day on medical hypnosis whereas Erik Erikson, with his stages of psychosocial development, rivaling and completing Freud’s misguided theory of psychosexual development. The European Erikson’s name became synonymous with concepts such as the identity crisis, adolescence as a moratorium period and ego psychology. The American Erickson was hailed as father of brief therapy, solution focused therapy, neurolinguistic programming and Jay Haley’s family therapy school of strategic therapy. Yet amazingly, the uniting thread was that both men were speaking about psychosocial and family development throughout the life cycle long before these notions became popularized either in professional circles or with the lay public.

I was writing about Erik not Milton.