hold on! - 10

[bravo61]

That's between them. If you have to, let S know that you love and support him and you're their if he needs you. Let him know you are proud of him and believe in him and he has the right to make the choices for HIS life.

Not your circus.

Good luck.

[Painter]

Talk to an attorney. Don't agree to a single thing until you've spoken to an attorney. If the attorney doesn't listen to *all* your information or doesn't look at your financial spreadsheet (bring a spreadsheet with incomes, expenses, assets and debts), get another attorney.

Google state-specific laws for your state, that can start you off with some idea of what to expect.

But talk to an attorney. Don't put it off, and don't agree to anything until you've done it. I can not stress this enough, as I have seen guy after guy after guy get hosed in their divorces because they wanted to be fair and nice and generous, but did not realize the consequences down the road of what they were agreeing to.

[u-turn]

Thanks Bravo,
S21 ended up coming over unannounced on Wednesday after my IC. I accommodated him and his gf for dinner (along with d15 and two friends, and S17). It was nice and fun - but W actually ate separately from all of us and s17 went to eat with her - feeling sorry for her. S21 asked to borrow money for rent (apartment that he's still paying for at school which he dropped out of). After a long talk with him (with W), I said I would help him. W wants him to move back home and S21 asked if he and his gf can move in because their current situation is not healthy. Privately I told S21 that the home that W wants him to come home to is not what he thinks it is - I did let him know that his mom and I haven't really spoken in months. S21 knows it is bad - he is still worried about me and my health. I assured him that I am fine and we will all be fine, but he may not want to rush into coming back home right now.

I really don't want him worrying about me. that is not his responsibility.

I told W that we need to figure out our path before we decide what to do about s21 moving back.

She agreed, but no conversation has happened (and no family counseling either).

Thank you Painter - I had a short meeting with an attorney to get some information. He is leaving for a week, but we have a couple hours blocked out early the following week to review everything. It is a scary step, but liberating as well. I just want everything to be fair and as good as possible for the kids. I also don't want to be an a-hole, but that will probably be the perception.

W & I cannot come together to even discuss anything at this point. We each leave the room when the other enters. W spewed at me about this, but she is also doing the same thing.

I wish the L was around and I could proceed quicker - I do have some clarity now (as I have written on zues' thread)

Thanks for everyone's support

[u-turn]

I took a trip to see my parents yesterday - out of the blue, just went and had a good talk. This is not normal for me, but it was nice. I haven't seen them in a while.

It was not may intention to do so, but with the right questions from my mom, I told them about the troubles we are having. My mom was not surprised one bit - not at all. She knew all along, even last year - how about how things have been for me. We did not speak of the why, but she made some very spot-on assumptions. It is also funny that she pointed out many things about how my marriage and W has been (some things that stung a little) nothing too cruel, but maybe things that I never saw before.

My dad was oblivious and shocked and angry. I had to calm him a little.

I regret opening up to them a little, but it did make me feel like I had family again. They offered their support of anything I need. That felt nice.

They spoke about my brother who went through a eerily similar situation a couple years ago and is now re-fighting with his xw about finances and custody with a new lawyer. (He can barely afford to live while his xw is remarried to her AP built a new giant house and is living the life - but yet she is demanding more money from him (that is the story that I understand anyway))

I think at some point I will talk with him too. I don't know if I am ready for that though. I have never really been very open with him. Funny thing is my W was the talker when we were with my family too.

------

I have declined more invitations to do things with W and the kids. I see the kids all week long and I don't feel like I am missing out on them (I really miss family time though)(I just feel that it is not right at this time). This makes me really angry.

-------

How about this - I keep getting a message that OMW is a "person I should know" on facebook. I believe we are in close circles with some of our common friends (and some of my former clients). This is going to be a constant reminder for me. I still feel really bad for her (this is something that I think about a lot - something that torments me - (I don't believe she knows about any of this)). I looked at her profile and saw pictures of her and her H celebrating their anniversary with their kids.

[Zephyr]

U turn, I saw had the same thing post up a couple of times over the last few months...the guy who I have suspected my wife is too deep with, his wife pops up on my ribbon as a should know.

Just another reminder of an inappropriate involvement.

[Vanilla]

U

OMW and her R with her WH is her business, block the FB requests if you want to and if it makes life easier. I am minded about rzrbacks sitch and his WW who had a similar R with a WH and had a very hard time detaching. His wife had the most miserable time post A.

U, this A isn't going anywhere when OM is posting happy family pictures, at this stage of an A, it should be all together against the world. Clearly WW wants to play happy families too.

Your family can be very important in times like this, mums have a way of knowing too. They can ease the burden so the connection is loving and strong.

Can we look at the invitations to be with your children just a little? U some of these events may be important to your children so you may want to temper your view a little on this. Warm neighbour remember? Your children are older so the way you handle this can be very creative. Kids like your younger S and D will be relatively independent. especially if doing so is making you angry!

So what types of events are you choosing to veto?

U I will examine the post you made on Zues thread. be aware whilst anger can project you forwards it may not be the best place to D from. More in sorrow than in anger......

Peace

V

[u-turn]

Thanks V, I am a facebook novice - I hardly ever go on it, but this came across my e-mail too - I don't think she is sending me a request, but it was just interesting that we are only a couple of degrees off of each other's lives. W unfriended me a couple months ago, so I don't see her stuff. I do have a feeling the A will go nowhere, but their friends with benefits arrangement may. I cannot allow myself to be involved with that. (W & OM both are trying to play happy family - and OMW is in the dark). I have spoken to my IC about the burden that I feel that I am carrying about OMW - she just tells me that I have enough to concern myself about - let that go for now.
----
I didn't expect that kind of support from my mom - and a hug from her too - holy-moly. I also didn't expect that I would ever want that either.
----
As far as invitations go, it is not like we are doing anything as a family these days. No day trips, no beach, no hikes. The kids are mostly doing their own things with their friends, S17 works a lot. I normally make dinner for myself and the kids and if W chooses to join us, she can. What I have been declining is going out to eat with them. This used to be a fun thing we did, but I have been declining. W takes the kids then. I think this may be petty, but it is the only family fun thing we would be doing right now - and I don't know what to do about it - I don't want to lose ground.

So - U-turn thinks by going out to dinner with his W and kids, that he is going to give the impression to W that everything is alright/on the mend again - maybe. But maybe I am taking the detachment thing too far. I am angry at myself for having to act this way.

Now that school is over, I am working at home with my other business and get to spend a lot of time with the kids - and am very flexible with my time so I can do things with them when they are available and want to.

I don't really think I have the warm neighbor thing down. I do not speak to her in an angry way, I just don't speak to her. I do find myself leaving the room when she enters. We do not exchange texts or e-mails. The only thing we have talked more than a couple sentences about was S21. If communication ever was our issue, it is at an all-time low point right now.

When I was passing through the house last night, I saw my wife face down on the couch crying. I didn't what to do about this (ask what's wrong?) Right away my assumption was that - she must feel really bad about what has happened to our family. But I really don't know what she would be thinking or crying about, and may not like the answer she would give me.

So I ignored and went about my business - as I have been doing for a couple months.

This morning her only words to me was that she was giving the family counselor one more try (FC has not returned calls). This was with the intention of figuring a way to tell the kids and co-parent.

I am angry about what life has become, I am angry at myself for not having some kind of solution, I am angry at W, but I do think this anger is opening my eyes.

In the back of my mind, I have been worried that I will not be able to turn myself around if something changed in my situation. But I know there is something still in me that cares for W (when I saw her crying last night).

Thanks for stopping in

[Vanilla]

U

A couple of observations if I may?

It is clear in your writing that you still want this M and to repair. WW is unhappy and crying, let her do that, let her work her sitch. It could be the neighbours cat died or she saw a sad movie. Let that be.

The meals out, I would not veto all of them for the sake of your kids. Pick your restaurant, something light breezy and fun, where you can get up to collect salad or refill drinks. You can choose if you like and ask W to join you at the restaurant, oh and yes you are doing this for your kids! You can be clear on that.

Smart and casual so you look amazing! That is happening? Becoming the man only a fool would leave, with aftershave, haircut and a big smile.

If you are not strong enough then just say 'next time'. Plan to travel in your own car to meet at the restaurant and leave slightly early if needs be. No alcohol and relax, oh and did I say smile? Play a heart warming tune before you go in. Sit between the kids, oh and did I say smile? I did? Oh I thought I forgot to say smile.

So how would you be with a friendly neighbour?

Your leg has just been run over, your tv went on the blink, the washing machine needs repair, there is a leak in the loo and your car won't start. Friendly neighbour says 'hi, how are you?'

What do you say?

Your neighbour opposite had his cat run over and it's at the vets.

What do you say?

The guy in the bar you swap baseball stories with just won a holiday in a competition.

What do you say?

Your coworkers daughter is appearing as a guest on a talent show on TV.

What do you say?

How do you say it? Do you look at them and smile as you say it?

One trick U, my IC advised me if it's hard to look WW in the eyes or gaze at her face (replace WH for me) then either stare between their eyebrows or defocus on their face by looking at a spot on the wall behind them in the middle of their back. Speak from the centre of your chest, oh and smile it gives warm to the voice. If WW is sitting sit, if standing stand. Say what you need to say wait 5 secs if you get no answer move on smiling. Be ready to move on quickly. If they say I am well then answer that's good to know. If you get a whine, validate (Wonkas cheat sheet) then move on.if you get a rant STFU and walk away.

My interactions with H eased off greatly when I set myself some behavioural targets. I was dealing with aggression not emotional blackmail (crying). I will find that for you from one of my early threads. You can ignore it if it's not useful.

Smile

V

[u-turn]

Thanks again V

It is clear in your writing that you still want this M and to repair.

I do believe that I would want to make a go of it if W would drop the OM 100% and want back into the M. I do not want to set up a 3rd-wheel friendship, with me constantly looking at what I lost. She would just love to have me as a friend and is unaffected by seeing what I am giving up if I were to allow that.

Just last night, she came home in a different mood, trying to make "conversation", well at least wanted to tell me about her day, maybe she wanted to hear about my day. She went on for 10 minutes about her work - I listened, hmmmmed, aha-d, asked a question, but inside felt annoyed that we are back here - without addressing anything.

The meals out, I would not veto all of them for the sake of your kids. Pick your restaurant, something light breezy and fun, where you can get up to collect salad or refill drinks. You can choose if you like and ask W to join you at the restaurant, oh and yes you are doing this for your kids! You can be clear on that.

Smart and casual so you look amazing! That is happening? Becoming the man only a fool would leave, with aftershave, haircut and a big smile.

If you are not strong enough then just say 'next time'. Plan to travel in your own car to meet at the restaurant and leave slightly early if needs be. No alcohol and relax, oh and did I say smile? Play a heart warming tune before you go in. Sit between the kids, oh and did I say smile? I did? Oh I thought I forgot to say smile.

So how would you be with a friendly neighbour?

Your leg has just been run over, your tv went on the blink, the washing machine needs repair, there is a leak in the loo and your car won't start. Friendly neighbour says 'hi, how are you?'

What do you say?

Your neighbour opposite had his cat run over and it's at the vets.

What do you say?

The guy in the bar you swap baseball stories with just won a holiday in a competition.

What do you say?

Your coworkers daughter is appearing as a guest on a talent show on TV.

What do you say?

How do you say it? Do you look at them and smile as you say it?

I get this - I really do - and I have done this in the past. I have been making the decision to not do this though - not really a reaction, but a decision. I have been removing myself as the cake for my sake. Maybe I have taken it too far. I am very twisted by this. I have the belief that if I put myself in the friendly neighbor position, that is where I will remain, and that is where W wants me, and the stagnant waters will start smelling again.

I do feel like a jerk to my kids when I decline the dinner invite and that is why I am encouraging everyone to eat at home. When I write that, it sounds a lot like I am trying to control everything.

I feel that my current of veering toward D may be the way to get solace. I almost feel that I have made up my mind and there is no going back (maybe she is sensing that).

One trick U, my IC advised me if it's hard to look WW in the eyes or gaze at her face (replace WH for me) then either stare between their eyebrows or defocus on their face by looking at a spot on the wall behind them in the middle of their back. Speak from the centre of your chest, oh and smile it gives warm to the voice. If WW is sitting sit, if standing stand. Say what you need to say wait 5 secs if you get no answer move on smiling. Be ready to move on quickly. If they say I am well then answer that's good to know. If you get a whine, validate (Wonkas cheat sheet) then move on.if you get a rant STFU and walk away.

My interactions with H eased off greatly when I set myself some behavioural targets. I was dealing with aggression not emotional blackmail (crying). I will find that for you from one of my early threads. You can ignore it if it's not useful.

I try something like that, and when I do speak to her, I make the effort to soften my look (I remember a poster here a while back saying in his mind "I love you" while speaking helped. It has been difficult for me to do this and make eye contact with her lately, but I know that is not helpful in any manner.

I have basically been living like she is not here. I take care of about everything in the house and with the kids, and she shows up, sleeps on the couch, and leaves in the morning.

Smile

Smile - I know - I have that smile yet. My kids still bring my smile out. W sees me smiling with the kids and sees it go away with her. I also hate being like that - that is not who I want to be.

[Vanilla]

You can choose not to be the cake and behave as the friendly neighbour. They are not exclusive.

Behaving as if you were the friendly neighbour won't make you not cake either!

In other words if W sees you as potential cake that's good isn't it. Means there is still attraction and the friendly neighbour bit keeps the path home smooth. Behaving as if you were a friendly neighbour doesn't make you one either.

So, if you are going to expect WW to give up OM 100% immediately then that's not going to happen. From what I can read WW have a real tough time with the emotional stuff in piecing.

So for the sake of your kids, if for no other reason like standing, apply Sandi guidelines. Smile. Act as if.

Would you interact with someone who doesn't smile at you, won't go to dinner with the family, and treats you like you don't exist?

That's not to say that you should be cake, 2nd choice or walked all over.

V