Wayward Wife & LRT (5)

[Ripken8]

Defacto - I think you're doing a great job. It's easy to know these things on the boards, but when you're in the situation and it's real life, hard to constantly and consistently act on them.

Don't beat yourself up too much. You've come a long way and I'm sure THURS will go well!

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I think you did well this morning.

I'm a little torn on the direction of this thread. On the one hand, IF you end up divorce, the sooner you detach emotionally and start rebuilding your own life separate from her the better. On the other hand, IF your goal is to try to save your marriage (with a willingness to accept that you can't MAKE her reconcile and it may be a little more hurtful to you to continue trying but at least you'll have carry on KNOWING you did everything you could to try) then being over detached can become a problem too (like I said before your wife MAY just divorce you thinking it's what you want, what you deserve, what she deserves, that she's unforgivable, that you don't care, that you never cared, etc).

I'll go blue in the face repeating myself - she needs to feel what it's like to lose you.

Respectfully, IMO, I don't see this as a requirement of divorce busting or recovery from infidelity.

While an affair continues, losing you isn't her biggest concern (she's got a lawyer and is maybe filing on you here any day). Her affair is her number one priority much like an alcoholic's or drug addict's relationship with their drug of choice ~~ IT is their number one priority. Once the affair ends and you become the only option available sometimes pulling back and making them fear not only losing their affair relationship but you as well can "wake them up" so to speak, but even then, it's not a requirement to recovery. It's just a bit of a wake up call. Waywards typically lack empathy while having an affair and continue with that inability for awhile afterwards. "Feelings" aren't their strong suit. Losing you isn't the concern...it becomes more about losing what you [still] do for her that is the concern. For some women that is a bigger issue. The more strings a husband has the better that kind of passive aggressive strategy MIGHT work as a wake up call. Here, defacto's wife has her own well paying job with good benefits and a cushy place to live with her parents inclusive of built in babysitters. She's NOT romantically in love with Defacto right now so pushing her away completely could have the effect of her simply saying and thinking "meh". She may not like losing her friend, defacto and may not like the guilt she feels when he "punishes" her but that's about the extent of it.

I also don't think she's feeling you out to see if you are still attached to her. She may not be romantically in love with you right now but she's still connected to you and dancing with you (distancing - pursuer) because she is compelled to. You are still meeting some of her needs and you have been all along. So she's more or less cake eating and trying to keep you around meeting those needs either because her affair is over (for the most part but they still work together) or it's on the rocks or it's got no future but either way she's still deciding what she wants to do. Waywards (like addicts) can't decide what they want to do so they just do what ever pleases them at the moment and to heck with responsibilities or anyone else's feelings. One day she's set on divorcing you the next it's asking for hugs. One day she's lecturing you for making things mean and then two hours later texting you that "I hope you realize that I still love you". It's not an "attachment" test...it's more of a "I want my needs met by Defacto today" kind of thing. If you fall for it too hard and then overly pursue her, then she'll merely renew "distancing" herself again not because she tested your attachment and sees you are still there....but because that's what she'll automatically do when you pursue her too hard.

You are also right. You don't have to be "in your face" detaching to her because you can't without being (or appearing to be) a jerk. She gets it. She feels you pulling back and it's even more confusing when you are kind, attractive and smiling with her; yet, when she's not around, you are being distant and detached. Being a jerk only feeds her rationalizations and justifications and certainly isn't attractive behavior. I also don't think being nice to your wife is being her gay boyfriend. Unless you are giving her dating advice about OM and fashion tips you are OK being nice to your wife. She is still your wife. It's also not like you are initiating hugs and pursing her. SHE is pursuing and flirting with you. [now if you wanted to you COULD throw in a few hetero things now and then as you continue the distancing - pursuing dance. Your wife won't likely have sex with you but there are ways to communicate your desire for her sexually without being clingy, desperate and/or needy. Pursing her sexually is part of the dance. A confident man would do this. It might as simple as just letting her catch you giving her a look over or as overt as a simple statement of your desires. Nothing wrong with a man stating what he wants and you don't have to apologize for being a heterosexual that desires his wife.. More on this below]

I can see how the constant phone calls and texts are a drag and trying to "boundary" those is a nice way of protecting yourself from the constant turmoil of having to be on and prepared for the next interaction and then feeling compelled to document, analyze and interpret each and every interaction. Perhaps you could suggest and consider getting your daughter a cell phone of her own that can go back and forth between your houses so each of you can speak to your daughter whenever you like without having to interact with the other. Even suggesting it (but not actually doing it ...she's only 4 so it might be a little crazy to do at this point) makes the point that YOU are detaching and wanting space and distance with the result being her pursuing more. On the other hand, I could see the phone idea backfiring with your wife still constantly talking to D4 while with you which still invades on your space and time (though you'd still control the phone to some extent for a couple years yet - don't even try to take a phone from a 10+ year old).


Moving forward. One thing to consider, IMO, is what is wrong with you (a man) stating exactly what you want in a straight forward non-begging manner? I don't always agree very much with the nmmng stuff, especially what you see on their forums (complete jerks and even wayward husbands using the information to rationalize and justify their [paraphrasing] "finally standing up to their mean abusive sex withholding wives" and doing whatever they want). Basically being to much of a nice guy (as Glover defines it) is a resentment building problem but being a selfish entitled superior man also creates it's own set of relationship and life problems. There is a happy medium and that's one of the most significant and amazing things that marriage is (designed) supposed to teach us. Anyway, those sites do promote a policy that it's OK for a man to ask for what he wants. That's what men are supposed to do. We aren't supposed to passive aggressively demonstrate detachment to our wayward wives hoping they fear losing us and then "wake up", we aren't supposed to grovel at their feet begging for a second chance while they continue dating others (OM) and deciding what they want, and it's certainly not healthy for a betrayed husband to just sit around being nice to them waiting for them to decide what they want. The point is....what you want matters. Feel free to express it. She can do what she wants with the information or do nothing at all but she'll never be able to say she didn't know how you felt. This isn't suggesting a yelling or anger session either. This isn't punishment. You are not her punisher. God will handle her. You are just sharing your feelings.

What are your feelings? Do you want to recover, what are your conditions/boundaries regarding an attempt at recovery, what do you think a divorce will look like (she needs to know now that this friendly relationship is not you trying to make things easy for her and an example of how the relationship will continue to be IF and WHEN she divorces you but rather, it's continued turmoil and devastation each and every day you carry on this act of being OK with the situation while wanting to simultaneously scream "wake up" at her). She needs to know you cherish/cherished her and aren't sure yourself if you can forgive and recover. She needs to know that you are scared about what a divorce will do to your children How seeing them 50% of the time is killing you. How if she divorces you you'll come to resent her for taking away 50% of your time in your children's lives. How you miss your best friend one day and catch yourself so many times wishing she was around to share something with but then hating her the next minute for what she's CONTINUING TO DO to you and your children. Then defining what you want going forward. No more hugs, kisses, texts saying she loves you UNLESS she is willing to back it up with certain and distinct boundary enabling behaviors. Leading you on while intermittently discussing divorce issues is emotionally abusive. She can't expect kindness while everyday you fear being served divorce papers. You're done being nice while she's behaving hurtfully. You know she's still in contact with ____ (insert OM's wife's first name) husband. That (om's wife's first name) told you that OM and her are trying to work things out (use the words from the text message) but that your contact still knows the two of them are talking, flirting and calling each other. Not only are you disappointed she's destroying your family but destroying another family just makes you question whether you even know who she is. Etc. Etc.

I know it's sharing a lot. But it's authentic. It's real. It's not manipulative. It's straightforward manly. Also, once you've clearly stated your feelings, intentions and boundaries...detaching becomes easier. You're real. You're not passive aggressive anymore. She's either got to step up and be real too or not. Her call. No expectations. But, at least, she can't be passive aggressive and manipulative herself by saying stuff like "why are you being mean to me", "why are you punishing me" and "If you don't speak to me I'm going to take more custody from you and you'll get less time with the children". You'll also be able to say refer her to the email/letter saying you know how I feel and I'm only trying to protect myself emotionally from your hurtful words and behavior ~~~~ that this has to do with YOU and your thoughts and feelings. That everything isn't about her.

Maybe you want to put it in an email or letter so you can be more clear and concise saying exactly what you mean. Maybe you are more comfortable expressing it face to face. Some may feel it's more manly to do it face to face but most of us betrayed husband's here ended up here as result of our ingrained conflict avoiding personalities and the email or letter is the easier way to go. Such email/letter can then be followed up with conversations (where you just listen mostly and maintain your distancing - pursuing stance). Plus, a letter/email can be saved by the wayward and even if they don't understand or get it at first, many have come back to such boundary ultimatum letters time and time again a begin a process of understanding if and when they commend on a journey towards repentance.

I'll try to come up with a sample email/letter here in a bit.

[Defacto]

Thanks Rip. I'm taking everything in stride. Plus, I love the discussion. I think it's helpful to talk it through out loud from a therapeutic standpoint.


Zues, RAI, T0, Starsky,
Sorry guys. I was just rereading some of my responses and I realized I came come off as too defensive. I apologize for that. That was not my intended tone. I sincerely appreciate the constructive criticism and I know we all want the same thing for each other.

Keep it coming, that is, if you can still put up with me!

[Matt777]

I don't blame you, buddy. There is nothing I want more than some sort of physical interaction with my wife. I haven't touched her since I kissed her the morning we separated a month and a half ago. I know that right now, it wouldn't be for the right reason and wouldn't be beneficial for me however that contact was made though until she's really ready to start reconsidering things.

Stay strong.

[Defacto]

Wow, GB! Thanks for the response. I always knew you were back there lurking, waiting for the right time to pounce. Thanks so much for your investment in my sitch!

I am going to need some time to reread this post a couple of times.

[T384]

I had a rough road as well and it took me a long time to get it right, if I ever really did.

Anyway, I think you need to deicde what you want. I know it's hard when you get conflicting advice but if you've read from Sandi, who has a lot of insight into the mind of a WAW, you can see why what I'm advising you is important.

Yes it may not save your marriage but it will save your sanity. I do want to be clear that I really do think you need to coparent and get along for the kids. Who knows, if you do D, you may be friends down the road. But is what your W done something you would want in a friend right now?

And I will still stand by my statement - she needs to feel what it's like to not have you in her life. Right now she is cake eating.

Enforce a boundary and stick with it. Limited contact except regarding the children. Stick to what you stated as a boundary and eventually it will come naturally to you both.


As far as my sitch, I decided my Hchose to remove himself as my husband but he was still the boys father. I was going to be friendly and nice for the kids because I was the bigger person. I also wanted to be the person only a fool would leave.

[mahhhty]

Solid post Mr Bulldog. Defacto - you got a lot of info there. Good luck!

[NDY]

GB. Pure gold. I have been struggling with this for quite. While now. The conflicting messages just drive me mad. Thank you for this. I look forward to the sample email.

/derail

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I had a rough road as well and it took me a long time to get it right, if I ever really did.

Anyway, I think you need to deicde what you want. I know it's hard when you get conflicting advice but if you've read from Sandi, who has a lot of insight into the mind of a WAW, you can see why what I'm advising you is important.

Yes it may not save your marriage but it will save your sanity. I do want to be clear that I really do think you need to coparent and get along for the kids. Who knows, if you do D, you may be friends down the road. But is what your W done something you would want in a friend right now?

And I will still stand by my statement - she needs to feel what it's like to not have you in her life. Right now she is cake eating.

Enforce a boundary and stick with it. Limited contact except regarding the children. Stick to what you stated as a boundary and eventually it will come naturally to you both.


As far as my sitch, I decided my Hchose to remove himself as my husband but he was still the boys father. I was going to be friendly and nice for the kids because I was the bigger person. I also wanted to be the person only a fool would leave.

I think this advice is OK for a betrayed wife. She should almost immediately detach completely. A wayward husband should see and feel what it's like to lose their wife. In general, wayward husbands tend to have much stronger feelings for their spouse that they [try to] compartmentalize away as much as they can. When their betrayed wife drops the rope...they DO "feel it". This is in contrast to a wayward wife. Women (generally speaking) have romantic feelings for only one man at a time. It's an survival instinct. It's biological. Give them space and they might miss some of the (friendly) needs being met (and resist it) but they won't truly "feel it". If they are 50-60 years old, without a career and tied up completely financially with their husband they may FEEL threatened in the financially security aspect but they aren't "feeling" the loss of love and relationship. Actually most wayward wives WANT to be left alone. They WANT space and OVERLY detaching just gives them extra rationalizations and justifications to continue doing exactly what they are already doing.

Then there is the thought/concept/idea that women, in general, want to man to lead the relationship and instigate the chase. Women find men that pursue them (in a certain - non-needy way) attractive. Women, let alone a wayward wife, aren't likely to chase their detached and distant betrayed husband's....for long; or, ever.


To each his/her own, but I'm also not a fan of just "getting along for the kids". I think it often sets/models a horrible example that you should ignore and excuse abusive behavior because other people are more important than you. What happens when your children find themselves in an abusive relationship someday themselves? Should they just try to get along or should they fight for THEIR dignity and respect and get out (or, at least...speak up)? Model what you expect. This doesn't mean alienate the wayward spouse. Parallel parenting IS dignified and respectful but it gives the betrayed spouse time to heal and rebuild their lives without constantly having to deal with and interact with their [emotional] abuser. Forgiveness doesn't require reconciliation of a [friendly or any] relationship.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

GB. Pure gold. I have been struggling with this for quite. While now. The conflicting messages just drive me mad. Thank you for this. I look forward to the sample email.

/derail

I know, right?

Some messages say: manipulate her by validating her and listening to her, spend time with her and others say manipulate her by detaching from her because she needs to feel the loss and be punished.

Frankly, you (anyone) can go either way (when trying to manipulate your desired outcome) depending on your personal wants and needs. Either way is being manipulative and there isn't anything inherently evil or wrong with trying to manipulate your wayward spouse into doing the right thing. It may not be healthy for you long term but almost every betrayed spouse does it (even the ones that go ballistic the first night and give ultimatums that work with the inherent thread of violence or coercion). I personally think men should strategically pursue more (doing a dance of pursuit and distancing) and go into the fog and TRY to lead/drag their wife out of it; however, I think it's entirely too much to ask or suggest for a betrayed wife to do the same.

Then again, to some men it may be too much too whereas some women can emotionally put up more of a fight.

All generalizations.

Also...these strategies aren't mutually exclusive. The pursuer - distancing strategy presumes some pursuing AND some detaching.

I also think the posters save their marriage or not. I'm a bit of a fatalist here but many/most betrayed husband's come here to get affirmation and confirmation that the way they are choosing to handle themselves is o.k. They supplement their decisions with our information and reconcile or divorce all on their own. There isn't any magic way for me to tell which way this situation is going to go. I could see them jumping in bed together next weekend (almost every reconciliation story begins with "and we had sex last night") or; she could be filing the divorce papers today and running off to be with OM. Either way, Defacto is better off having this place and our [sometimes conflicting] support because the battlefield he finds himself in is ever changing and uncertain. He can apply my tools one day and someone else's the next. It's all good.