Hardest Time of My Life

[LostMN]

I guess the moral is if I wasn't prepared for all possible answers, I shouldn't have asked.

No, the moral is if you weren't prepared with solid evidence of continuing infidelity, you shouldn't have confronted her.

It seems like we are maybe talking past each other here. I will clarify a bit to see if we are talking about the same thing.

First, I had solid evidence of ongoing texting between her and OM. I have seen the phone records recently. I had no need to bring that up because she didn't deny that she was doing still doing it.

What she said (and what I did not have a prepared response for) was that it was no longer sexual. The only way for me to confirm or deny the content of the messages would be to read them on her phone. I think that would be a serious breach of character for me and that regardless whether my W stays or goes, I could not respect myself for doing that.

What I see now is that it doesn't matter whether it's still sexual, it's still an inappropriate relationship.

But even knowing that it is an inappropriate relationship I don't have any leverage to tell her stop. "Stop texting him... Or...?" Or what? You can't sleep in my bed? You cannot present us in public as being a couple? I won't be very nice to you any more?

I don't see any of these as being particularly motivating for her.

Thank you for continuing to challenge me Starsky. I do appreciate it, and this back and forth.

[Starsky309]

But even knowing that it is an inappropriate relationship I don't have any leverage to tell her stop. "Stop texting him... Or...?" Or what? You can't sleep in my bed? You cannot present us in public as being a couple? I won't be very nice to you any more?

"Or you can't remain married to ME anymore, because I will not stay in an open marriage."

IF that is, in fact, a hard boundary with you.


Starsky

[LostMN]

Hi Lost, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. But I can tell you that advice from Starsky - one of the best Vets around on the site - is well worth careful consideration.

From what I read, your W is wayward & wayward normally calls for a strong, alpha response. Please read Sandi's advice threads for LBHs to understand more if you haven't done so already.

Good luck my friend :-)

Thanks for your comment, Toots. I am trying to take it all in here and to allow myself to be challenged on my behavior. I did read Sandi's thread and that's really what prompted me to take action and try and call my W on her behavior.

Starsky has been a great help already. I am trying to strike the balance between over-analyzing and being too quick to action.

[Starsky309]

I have posted this before, but perhaps you haven't seen it, MN. It's from an old poster here named Jayne, and it was just about the best explanation of what boundaries really are that I have ever seen. So I saved it in my personal archives:



Jayne, on “boundaries”:

Think about boundaries like this:

Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.

Your wayward wife can do whatever she wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling her what to do.

But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.

She's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because she'll be outside your circle. She's free to go on and draw her own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, [i]outside your circle.

She can do WHATEVER she wants. She's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices she wants.

BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.

That's all. Not about trying to control her at all. Tell her she's totally free. She has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever she wants.

If however she's saying you have to let her into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HER controlling YOU.


[/i]

[Starsky309]

I am trying to strike the balance between over-analyzing and being too quick to action.

MN, it's not about the speed with which you act, but rather the force. The speed can (and should) be "whatever pace you're comfortable with, so long as you can live with the consequences of your temporary inaction should you decide to move slowly."

Once you do act however, it should be done with unequivocal force (but civilly and respectfully) and without apology. After all, we are talking about one of your core boundaries of personal integrity here -- not about which you prefer with your chicken: pasta or potatoes.

Don't confuse "pace" with "power."


Starsky

[25yearsmlc]

Lost -

Sandi & I have discussed how we, as women, view different approaches of how to treat a wayward wife, at first. She says I "use a softer" approach & that's a fair description.

I once almost had an A, about 9 years into the m. At the time, I did justify it. But I also felt wracked with guilt, sought out counseling before things went too far, and stopped myself.

So my approach is with that^^ experience in mind. I thnk back on how I felt and how it would have gone if my h had discovered the "EA" and "been a jerk."

My h was in training as an MD back then. As objectively as I can see my own past, which is admittedly biased, I was very neglected due to h's career change.

We had 2 small children, we both worked full time, my job was very stressful, (both of us were Army officers during the First Gulf War. I Joined b/c h owed the Army for med school)...

and when h was home which was darn rare, he was so exhausted that he'd fall asleep at the dinner table (literally) and was usually super irritable due to stress and sleep deprivation (not exactly appreciative of my sacrifices, to say the least).

This went on for years...AND with no light at the end of the tunnel.

It took all of that^^ for me to want to stray from my m. So imo, most women with children do not easily cheat on h's who treat them decently.

Having said all this, you might think I'd urge you to supplicate your wife now.

But I'm not.

Because when it comes to how a wayward wife views a h who seems weak, fearful and indecisive, I'm in alignment with Sandi and Starsky

and when the 3 of us agree on something, you ought to give it some thought.

BUT - THIS IS KEY

you have made much of not wanting to be a jerk and how you "treated her like sh1t in the past." It's great that you see this and wonderful that you care to reverse it, regardless of what she chooses to do about the marriage (b/c she's the mother of your offspring, & you're an honorable man, you should Not treat her like sh1t).

Maybe you see a lot of her recent behavior as Payback for the years during which you mistreated her. I get that. Really, I can see it.

But now we have to look at what will help you in saving, repairing & recreating your marriage - so you can have a healthy one.



*SO --- If you start off with the moral high ground on an issue,
(i.e. a wife texting OM in an inappropriate way, gives you the moral high ground)

AND THEN you blow it b/c you berate her or bully her or get physical in any way -

- You don't have to slug her to "get physical". It means if you physically intimidate her.

Throwing things (=tantrum) or getting in her face (intimidation tactic =bullying) -

THEN You lose the moral high ground.

Is that the reason you are "now feeling like a jerk"?

If it is, just own that so we know what you're talking about.

Otherwise, I don't see anything you need to regret EXCEPT not having a plan of action for what you discovered.

--Her contact with OM is wildly inappropriate for at least 2 reasons:

1) Her past with that OM (!)

and

2) b/c it bothers YOU.

So it's inappropriate b/c unless it is related to their working professional relationship (which they lack), then it's unnecessary and in this situation, disrespectful to you.

I don't know how you behaved during the exchange. Maybe you were a jerk. But the substance of the conversation was that you discovered wrong doing on your w's part; and

you basically requested she sleep elsewhere "tonight"...

That^^ my friend, is NOT a proportional response.
It might have been if you'd said "so I can think about what I'm going to do now"...

Moving on...as to "WHY??" you didn't say or do more...

Hey, you feel powerless. Your wife wants out of the marriage and you don't want to rock the boat. I can see that.

To carry the metaphor farther...Is it really helping you repair anything, to see HER rocking the boat - only to have you do nothing to right the ship?

You are fixing nothing by taking the path of least resistance. It's working against you.

And I'm Sorry but I don't buy the "people pleaser" scenario the way you are packaging it.

You stated that you are 'terrified" of confrontation to the point that you leave the room when OTHERS are in conflict.

That^^ is not "people pleasing", it's a crippling reaction to a normal life event

(b/c every single situation has conflict in it, if there are 2 or more people involved).

Are you the child of alcoholics? Where'd you get that response? Are you working on that?

As for your wife & you, I think the fear is coming from an insecure place deep within; not wanting to please others so much as keep them around.

There's a difference.

Wanting someone to need you so they don't leave, is not the same as loving them.

Keeping the peace at all costs, is not true peace. It's simply the lack of overt conflict. Make no mistake; there IS conflict in your marriage.
Hiding from it doesn't make it go away.

She wants out, & you seem to be wringing your hands about it. That must change.

I'd love to hear some GAL activities and 180s and maybe some short term goals (getting back to basic DBing)...AND finally

I say DO NOT "confront her!" - about anything,

IF you do Not have a plan for what action to take when you find something.

Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

PS

What are the finances right now? Meaning, what leverage do you really have with her?

IF you are the breadwinner and paying her cell bill AND she's texting OMs,

that phone bill has to be paid by her from now on. Not by you.

That's just an idea I'm throwing out to give you an example of a consequence. Yes it sounds parental and that's tragic. (NOT attractive....)

But if she's acting like a child, maybe it's needed.

[Starsky309]

Because when it comes to how a wayward wife views a h who seems weak, fearful and indecisive, I'm in alignment with Sandi and Starsky [/b]

and when the 3 of us agree on something, you ought to give it some thought.

That made me smile.


Starsky

[LostMN]

Jayne, on “boundaries”:

Thanks for that one again, it makes it more a little easier to understand what she means when there's a vivid case-in-point sitting in front of me.

[LostMN]

Lost -
Maybe you see a lot of her recent behavior as Payback for the years during which you mistreated her. I get that. Really, I can see it.

This is maybe my biggest obstacle to being more assertive with my needs and boundaries. Early on in this process, I wanted to take all the responsibility for the problems on myself. Now I rationally know that blame is much closer to 50/50, but my old thinking still shows in my actions sometimes.

*SO --- If you start off with the moral high ground on an issue,
(i.e. a wife texting OM in an inappropriate way, gives you the moral high ground)

AND THEN you blow it b/c you berate her or bully her or get physical in any way -

- You don't have to slug her to "get physical". It means if you physically intimidate her.

Throwing things (=tantrum) or getting in her face (intimidation tactic =bullying) -

THEN You lose the moral high ground.

Is that the reason you are "now feeling like a jerk"?

If it is, just own that so we know what you're talking about.

It has never been a problem for me to not intimidate people. In fact, I usually tend to do the opposite and shrink back, even as I am making demands of people that they may not like. Also, my W is a black belt in karate, so at least knows how to throw a punch under pressure.
No, no intimidation here.

Otherwise, I don't see anything you need to regret EXCEPT not having a plan of action for what you discovered.

--Her contact with OM is wildly inappropriate for at least 2 reasons:

1) Her past with that OM (!)

and

2) b/c it bothers YOU.

So it's inappropriate b/c unless it is related to their working professional relationship (which they lack), then it's unnecessary and in this situation, disrespectful to you.

I don't know how you behaved during the exchange. Maybe you were a jerk. But the substance of the conversation was that you discovered wrong doing on your w's part; and

you basically requested she sleep elsewhere "tonight"...

That^^ my friend, is NOT a proportional response.
It might have been if you'd said "so I can think about what I'm going to do now"...

Yes, I'm slowly coming around to the fact that my response was rational, and not cruel, so I really have no reason to feel like I was a jerk. In the moment, though, when she insisted that the exchanges were no longer sexual (and I still do believe her, but it doesn't matter) I felt like suddenly I had no more reason to make demands like "Please sleep elsewhere until this relationship is definitively ended." I see that is not the case now, but at that moment, that was my reality.

You stated that you are 'terrified" of confrontation to the point that you leave the room when OTHERS are in conflict.

That^^ is not "people pleasing", it's a crippling reaction to a normal life event

(b/c every single situation has conflict in it, if there are 2 or more people involved).

Are you the child of alcoholics? Where'd you get that response? Are you working on that?

No, not a child of alcoholics, there wasn't really even that much conflict in my house growing up. I was the middle child of 6, but I don't know how that could have led to such a conflict aversion.
My IC and I have discussed it, but I will bring up more as something specific to work on.

As for your wife & you, I think the fear is coming from an insecure place deep within; not wanting to please others so much as keep them around.
There's a difference.

Wanting someone to need you so they don't leave, is not the same as loving them.

This strikes a chord. I don't know for sure what it means or why, but I see this in a lot of my actions.

She wants out, & you seem to be wringing your hands about it. That must change.

I'd love to hear some GAL activities and 180s and maybe some short term goals (getting back to basic DBing)...AND finally

I say DO NOT "confront her!" - about anything,

IF you do Not have a plan for what action to take when you find something.

Make sense?

Thank you very much for the lengthy and considered response. I am still working through all the responses. For now, I know I need to stand by my stance that my W sleeps elsewhere until the A is definitively ended one way or another. If she truly does intend to honor my wish that she not pursue other men while we're still married then maybe this will be short-lived.

To the community: Giving this level of care and attention in the name of helping complete strangers through some of the toughest times in their lives is truly awe-inspiring. I am humbled and deeply grateful.