Hardest Time of My Life

[LostMN]

I would also strongly suggest you start to become more clear and succinct in your communication with her, as in "as long as you're still in inappropriate contact with another man, we are no longer a couple" or even "End your affair and we can talk about it -- I think you'll find me ready and willing to work on any and all issues, including my own contributions to our marital problems, but I will not discuss it as long as you're still in contact with him."


Starsky

I think I know the answer but should I address the possibility that she has stopped contact with the intent of picking it back up again? That may be what is happening here.

After telling her that I was "ready to move forward with the D" I asked her not to pursue other men until we were done because I did not want that kind of disrespect. She gave some noncommital answer like "You won't have to worry about that" or something. And while I don't take much stock in what she says, I checked phone records last week (no more!) and there was nothing for two weeks.

[Starsky309]

I wouldn't try to re-establish your hill on a hypothetical. I would wait for proof of re-contact (and only check intel 1x/week, or 2x/month or something if doing so messes with your attitude and your detachment . . . or -- better -- ask a trusted third party to do it for you, and report their findings to you only as needed). THEN I would ask her to be honest with you, and if she lies to your face I would put my hand up in the "stop" position, and end the conversation saying "OK, please just stop. We both know you're lying to me right now -- I know all about you and ______, and it needs to stop. It's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage, and to our family. It looks like we both have some decisions to make." And then leave the house for a few hours.

You don't want to do this on a hypothetical, or a hunch, or a suspicion. And you don't want to "ask." That's weak. A strong man doesn't ask for his boundaries to be respected, he establishes the clear expectation that they will be, lays out the consequences if they're not, and then enforces the consequences if needed. Calmly and without drama.

I would pull back, work on yourself as others have suggested, and do the periodic (or third party) verification to find out where things stand with her affair. THEN act.

But that's just me. You have to do what feels authentic to you and to your values. Only you know what your dealbreakers are, and you are the one who has to live with the consequences if she refuses to respect your boundaries and you allow the consequences to kick in. It's easy for us to say sitting here in the peanut gallery.


Starsky

[25yearsmlc]

I did not say "I will not live in an open marriage" In fact, when I found out about it, [b]I said she did not have to stop and that I perhaps had no right to ask.

Wow, looking back at that is pretty embarrassing. I was a real, honest-to-goodness doormat to some of the most reprehensible behavior I have had to endure from a person.

Before I go any further, may I ask WHY this ^^ happened?

(Is it in your thread somewhere that I missed?)

Why did you believe you "perhaps" had "no right to ASK" her to stop cheating on you?

- If a betrayed spouse apologizes for discovering an affair, while not addressing the actual affair, I have to assume the betrayed spouse EITHER feels the cheater was at least partly justified in having the affair,

and or is so terrified of confrontation, that they cower from it.
-
For the record, I'm NOT a believer in snooping. But nor am I one to suggest apologizing for the discovery of an affair when it's discovered , regardless of the means by which it is revealed.



This, I suppose is the people-pleasing, totally spineless behavior I want to find someone to help me with. I have been reading through Sandi's post on WW and... I'm not sure I can be that yet, but maybe that's the choice that I need to make. [/quote]


The way I see it, you have 3 behavioral options, two of which are only temporary.

#1) You can continue on this path, wondering if "maybe" you need to change. You can just remain in a perpetual state of indecision. The appeal of this choice is that you can continue to avoid confrontation b/c You "don't like confrontation"

* (NOTE--this may surprise you, but none of us enjoys confrontation. We all have to learn to manage it.)*

OR

#2) you could over compensate for passivity in the past, by becoming a punitive and or controlling jerk, from now on.

OR

#3) You can change. Learn to manage confrontation, as all successful adults do. You can learn to set healthy boundaries, boundaries that reflect your own self control & self respect.


Option #1 of "not deciding/not confronting"
has the obvious advantage of requiring no immediate change on your part.

However, this path is only a temporary, b/c chances are your wife will leave if you keep doing more of the same.

Option #2 (over compensating by being a jerk) -

has the advantage of being "simple" and it might even feel good in the moment, now & then. Alas this option is also temporary, b/c chances are your wife will very likely leave you if you choose this option. It's also a pretty crappy example for your children.

Which leaves option #3 as the only permanent path for you, if you wish to remain married AND regain your self respect.

"But it's hard" you may say. I get that. Change is not easy for anyone.

So here's the thing to remind yourself of: Ultimately, Not changing will cost you & your family a lot more, than improving your life will.

Doing more of the same is not going to get you to the victory lap.

That's one of the truly clear pieces of your situation.

[25yearsmlc]

The next day, my W pulled me aside and said she was surprised my by impassioned speech. I didn't see it at the time, but the fact that I even brought it up seemed to have inspired some respect in her, even if the rest of my actions were not particularly inspiring.

Since I didn't take any sort of stand or set any boundary, the texts continued immediately and our relationship returned essentially to status quo.

What does the above tell you, now that you look back on it and you're not in the heat of the moment?


Starsky

Exactly my question. Passion & commitment in a man is very attractive, desperation & neediness, NOT so much.

Chronic indecision on big issues (which we usually read as "fear" of making a mistake) is another one of those "not so much" traits.

What do you make of that, and your choices, going forward?

[25yearsmlc]

I would also strongly suggest you start to become more clear and succinct in your communication with her, as in "as long as you're still in inappropriate contact with another man, we are no longer a couple" or even "End your affair and we can talk about it -- I think you'll find me ready and willing to work on any and all issues, including my own contributions to our marital problems, but I will not discuss it as long as you're still in contact with him."


Starsky

I think I know the answer but should I address the possibility that she has stopped contact with the intent of picking it back up again? That may be what is happening here.

After telling her that I was "ready to move forward with the D" I asked her not to pursue other men until we were done because I did not want that kind of disrespect.

TELL her you won't tolerate it and end the conversation. It's not a "back & forth" request,or is it? Of course, when you say you "won't tolerate" it, that means you DO something if it happens. I'm not saying "SO GO LOOK" but I am saying, enforce the boundaries you set

OR DO NOT SET Them at all...To me, the only thing worse than someone not having boundaries is someone setting them and then Not enforcing them. (It's the same as you ignoring the boundary you set, so why shouldn't she ignore it?)

She gave some noncommital answer like "You won't have to worry about that" or something. And while I don't take much stock in what she says, I checked phone records last week (no more!) and there was nothing for two weeks.

2 things.

I don't want to quibble about small matters or semantics. But your changes should begin now, regardless of OM or what SHE SAYS or DOES or whatever.

You can't treat the mother of your children like sh1t and complain about consequences.

NO I'm not justifying her affair (but I'm sure she has), that's part of the point. SHE HAS.

So by you not keeping your side of the fence in order, she'll use that and any other negative images she has of you to justify it going forward. (**This is not to be confused with pursuit).

Counter those negatives she has of you, with positives, and eventually, she'll see that her "Data" about you is either inaccurate or out of date. But what she sees or admits is not relevant, really.

That's b/c you will have become a better stronger and happier LostMN.

Maybe your screen name will change to "FoundMN"...


Secondly, I'm not sure about the topics you'd use the mini "End with OM & we can discuss that" with.

(Starsky, can you give some examples?)

Maybe it means if she says something like "let's buy that new car" in which case

I'd support a statement along the lines of "I have financial plans of my own. IF we decide to stay married, I'll share them."

And be clear, "deciding to stay married" means by definition, NO AFFAIRS.

You may need to tell her that "thru an oversight" on your part, you didn't mention that. But to be clear, going forward,

you stay married (& faithful) OR you don't stay married. Either way, you'll be fine.

Say it and then leave the room/area.

I can't over stress the value of your remaining calm and in control of your emotions in front of her.

Fake it til you make it, if need be.

[Starsky309]

Secondly, I'm not sure about the topics you'd use the mini "End with OM & we can discuss that" with.

(Starsky, can you give some examples?)

Maybe it means if she says something like "let's buy that new car" in which case

I'd support a statement along the lines of "I have financial plans of my own. IF we decide to stay married, I'll share them."

And be clear, "deciding to stay married" means by definition, NO AFFAIRS.

You may need to tell her that "thru an oversight" on your part, you didn't mention that. But to be clear, going forward,

you stay married (& faithful) OR you don't stay married. Either way, you'll be fine.

Yes, BINGO -- that's a perfect example, 25. Or if she asks you point-blank why you seem to be pulling back emotionally, or spending more time on your own pursuits and passions. Etc.


Starsky

[LostMN]

I did not say "I will not live in an open marriage" In fact, when I found out about it, [b]I said she did not have to stop and that I perhaps had no right to ask.

Wow, looking back at that is pretty embarrassing. I was a real, honest-to-goodness doormat to some of the most reprehensible behavior I have had to endure from a person.
[color:#3333FF]
Before I go any further, may I ask WHY this ^^ happened?

(Is it in your thread somewhere that I missed?)

Why did you believe you "perhaps" had "no right to ASK" her to stop cheating on you?

- If a betrayed spouse apologizes for discovering an affair, while not addressing the actual affair, I have to assume the betrayed spouse EITHER feels the cheater was at least partly justified in having the affair,

and or is so terrified of confrontation, that they cower from it.
-
For the record, I'm NOT a believer in snooping. But nor am I one to suggest apologizing for the discovery of an affair when it's discovered , regardless of the means by which it is revealed.

Why. Why. Why. I have been asking myself that continuously for the last day or so. As far as I can tell the answer is two fold.

First, I am a people pleaser. I want to take all the responsibility for the problems and appease people and make them feel better about the situation. So, I was willing to take all of my W's unhappiness upon myself and accept myself as the only root cause of it all. This is not realistic, nor a representation of what actually happened. I felt guilty that we got to this point in our relationship (because it was clearly my fault in my mind) and so everything that she did was justified. I didn't actually do anything extreme that could have justified such behavior.

Second, as you imply, I am terrified of confrontation. The very suggestion that things are getting heated between people even in the same room as me is enough for me to flush beet red and get all flustered. Confronting someone about bad behavior was likely only something that has happened single-digit times in my life, so the fact that I was even having this conversation with my W was quite a leap for me. I got that far, then... couldn't think of what I should do next.

[PigPen]

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy, LostNM?

I've read it twice in the last two weeks, cover to cover. It's well worth it for guys like us that are pleasers and fixers, and confrontation avoiders.

[LostMN]

Secondly, I'm not sure about the topics you'd use the mini "End with OM & we can discuss that" with.

I also was wondering that. There's nothing she really wants to discuss with me right now other than the logistics of getting divorced.

[LostMN]

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy, LostNM?

I've read it twice in the last two weeks, cover to cover. It's well worth it for guys like us that are pleasers and fixers, and confrontation avoiders.

I have not. I originally went to my IC hoping to get this kind of recommendation (as well as help implementing it) but he was too focused on getting my wife in so he could make her "think about what she's doing". Thanks for the recommendation, I will add it to my large and growing pile of self-help books I have read.