I have been a fairly long-time lurker on these boards looking for some inspiration and guidance, but I am probably at a crossroads here and I thought I might seek the help of the community moving forward here.
OK, as briefly as possible, here's my story: About a year ago, my wife of five years (with whom I have a D4 and a S1) brought to me some relationship "talks" about being dissatisfied about a few things. She was generally unhappy with her life and job, and also brought up our relationship. I (shamefully) assumed it was mostly her job, and that it would pass when she got a new better job. She did get a better job, but her dissatisfaction with our marriage persisted. She said she had been considering divorce and felt awful about it. I thought this was the normal contemplating and reevaluation that people do when they are unhappy.
After several more talks, it became clear that no, this was not slight unease; she was seriously considering divorce. I asked if we could go see a marriage counselor, and she agreed but on the condition that we see a counselor who would consider divorce as a viable option for our marriage. We had three sessions (which did not progress anywhere). Then, seven months ago, my W went out of town to see some old college friends (including her ex before me, who is now married). When she returned she said that she and her ex had "said things to each other that married people shouldn't say" and that she had agreed to break off all contact with him, but that she was "DONE" with our marriage.
The next day, I went out and got "The Divorce Remedy" and have off-and-on attempted to apply the principles and to see if I can turn my situation around. We are still living together in the same house, still sleeping in the same bed, still caring for our children together, still doing things together.
She will not touch me in any way, no hugs, no kisses, no "I love you"s. She has not worn her wedding ring since that night seven months ago and she has been perpetually moody and angry ever since. We have spoken many times about what is really going on with her emotions, what is prompting her to make this choice, and these days, the only thing she will bring up about our relationship is that she thinks she "got married for the wrong reasons" and that she doesn't want to work on our relationship, and that she has never had what she wanted, but that she was scared to say so early in our relationship. I have simply maintained that I think our relationship can work, and that we have a responsibility to at least try for our children's sake. I have said I would not actively create an acrimonious divorce process, but that I would not push it forward. She has (apparently) not taken any action toward an actual split in the meantime, just brooded about it.
Here is the current situation: I have been seeing an individual counselor every two weeks for 3 months now. I was initially going to him to work on me and my perceived faults, since my wife was unwilling to consider any more counseling (even discernment counseling). A couple of sessions in, he suggested that I try to get my wife in so that she could talk about her emotions with somebody, since she seems to be unwilling to take a hard look at them herself. I had reservations, but I brought this to my wife and she reluctantly agreed. After her second session with the IC, she was very upset and angry and sent me a text saying "I know it is not your intent, but since I am unfeeling and emotionally cold, I am about ready to tell everybody to f*** off." I was in a low spot and had already been considering giving up and this anger hit me particularly hard. I called her and told her I'm ready to move forward with the divorce.
But of course not even two days later, I was seriously reconsidering my statement. I am not "ready to move forward" and this dynamic of "she gets frustrated, I maintain my position, she gets angry, I give in," is one of the most toxic emotional processes in our relationship. I don't want it to define us going forward regardless of whether we stay married. The complication here is that she has been immeasurably more pleasant and easy to live with since I told her I was ready. I have been so relieved to be living with an adult human being again, but I know that what she thinks about my emotional state is a lie.
So, my dilemma: I think that I have to tell her what I am thinking and feeling, but I can't help but think that maybe she is more likely to make better choices when she is in a better state of mind. I am trying hard to detach my feelings from hers, to remember that I am not responsible for her everyday mindset. I think she should know that my stand for my marriage is based on values and ideals and is not subject to her emotions.
Well, that got rather long. I'll share some more about my situation later (I have journaled extensively over the last seven months) but I hope that's enough to get a feel for where things are. I can see the challenging and supporting back and forth that goes on here to get people to reexamine themselves and I hope to be able to take part in that.
M30 W32 T7 M5 Kids: D4 S1 BD 10/06/14 Took off her ring Still living together
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
First, read all of Sandi's rules. It'll be hard, but you're going to have to put it in to work. Second, read the links that Cadet will send you as they help enormously. Third don't expect miracles. Ask lots of questions and you'll get some good ideas of what has worked for other people in other situations.
Lastly, take positive action about yourself. Only you can make yourself get through this. You'll normally attracy about five or six regulars to your thread. It's good to talk and use this board as a journal to get you through. I've been here nearly two weeks and it has rescued me from my doom laden responses (well, almost!).
Most importantly, DO NOT beg, plead or show weakness. It's a schoolboy error and your W will lose respect for you.
M 45 W 52 SD22 S9 D8 BD 6 April 2015 Not living together 4 Dec 2015
You mention that you read DR and started applying principles off and on. I don't really understand what that means. The way I understand it is that this is not a process to temporarily solve disputes - it is a way of improving yourself to improve your marriage.
Can you describe more about what you tried and what impact they had?
Thanks for the quick responses, all. I have gone through most of the standard rules and information before. Thank you for the reminder.
Matt - to me "off and on" meant that some times I was sure that DB and DR principles (especially detaching, not being drawn into relationship talks) were exactly what I needed to be doing in my situation. Other times, I was pursuing other methods of trying to find my way out of my situation. For instance, I read "The Five Love Languages" and then promptly tried to engage my W with what I perceived to be her love language (gift giving). This proved to be a mistake, since she was not receptive to it.
Pursuit has been a strong magnet for me. Every time I try to back off of it, I read some new "relationship improvement" technique and keep thinking "I haven't tried that yet!" while not stepping back to evaluate how it will bring me closer to my goals. That's mainly where my "off and on" statement comes from. I know I need to not pursue, but I find it hard.
M30 W32 T7 M5 Kids: D4 S1 BD 10/06/14 Took off her ring Still living together
Here's what I have been doing more specifically: GAL: Going out every second Thursday after work with work friends, calling and talking to family more, engaging my creativity regularly (music, drawing). I don't have a lot of friends (especially not with kids), and my family all live very far away, so I have difficulty getting out and doing things.
I have been working out very regularly. I am looking better than ever before IMO. I have dropped several unhealthy habits (drinking pop particularly) and have been monitoring my health more closely (getting a physical, monitoring blood pressure to keep ahead of a latent kidney condition).
Other things of focus: I have tried to dedicate more effort to better raising our children. Especially D4 who is well, 4 years old, and can be emotional and headstrong. I got some reference books and went through them with my W, but have not pursued it regularly.
I have been trying to take charge on things in my life and around the house: Soon after my W "made her decision", I planned and executed a large home improvement project (where she had criticized me for being unable to start and finish projects). I have been seeing IC to try and address my approval seeking and the difficulty I have in initiating new things for the better.
M30 W32 T7 M5 Kids: D4 S1 BD 10/06/14 Took off her ring Still living together
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
And my W's response to my attempted changes: she has been grateful for the things that I have done (except of course me looking better), but has said that she is reluctant to be too appreciative because she thinks I will automatically construe it as a sign that she is moving closer to reconciling.
Otherwise, she has spent a lot of time brooding and being angry at all the people in her life for not "supporting" her in her decision. A lot of time and very angry. I have said that I am willing to discuss her feelings at any time, but that "support" will be hard. When I maintain my position that I will not be pushing the divorce forward, she acts as though I am being unreasonable. She says she wants it to be amicable, and so do I, but I know that she doesn't need my permission.
Another relevant piece of information: I know there is an EA going on (text messaging at least since February) but I don't know who and though I don't think it has progressed to a PA, I can't rule it out.
(Finally, just a side note, thanks for hanging with me as I get into the rhythm of posting. For some odd reason, posting on forums induces a surprising amount of anxiety in me so I tend to post quickly, then evaluate my answer afterward.)
M30 W32 T7 M5 Kids: D4 S1 BD 10/06/14 Took off her ring Still living together
A lot of good info. One more question - You mention your wife is/has been unhappy with your marriage. But I didn't really see WHAT was/is making her unhappy. Can you describe those a bit more? You mention about doing some 180s...how do they relate to THOSE behaviors that made your wife upset?
You actually did something that has probably caused you to be seen more attractively in the eyes of your W. However, now you want to ruin it by telling her how you really feel?
When a man has a WW, that is not the time for him to wear his heart on his sleeve, or to start opening himself to tell her his most deepest desires. If he does, he will lose her interest so fast.......it will make his head spin.
Your W has entered into more than just a phase that will eventually work itself out. Sadly, too many men don't take it seriously when she tells him she is unhappy. By the time he finally gets his eyes opened, she feels completely done with him. She may care for him, like she cares for a relative........but she doesn't feel that sexual attraction that sets him apart from the friend category. That leads to couples becoming more roommates instead of lovers.
A mistake many guys make is doing what he believes would have worked with that gal he married. It could have worked....when she was wanting things between them to be better.......before the M was on the brink of D. What may have worked before things reached this point, won't be effective now. You need to approach this with a different style.
What did you do that could have caused her to be more pleasant recently, and to cool her heels about proceeding with ending the M? When she thought the tables had turned and you were the one who wanted to leave her.
Yes, I know, you guys want to pursue! But it is the wrong move to make here. She has changed, and she will be like any female who feels very turned off toward a certain male. If that male chases and pressures her, it is thoroughly disgusting to her. All it accomplishes is more negative feelings. She is not interested, and there is only one way that usually changes her feelings.
When a wayward wife is thinking seriously about dumping her H, she really doesn't consider the fact he could turn the tables. She may not want him, may not find him exciting/interesting/sexy, unless suddenly he is unavailable and maybe a little aloof when she's around him. B/c he isn't running after her, smothering her with his presence and attention, calling/texting throughout the day, and all those type of clingy behaviors.......it causes her to wonder why. What is he thinking? I wonder how he really feels about ending the M? Does he still desire me? Does someone else want him?!?
This is the old human nature at work, right or wrong.....it is what it is. For a man to be appealing to a woman, he can't be so easily had. Not when she has entered into that wayward zone. Some people want to use the approach that would work fine before she was a WW, but it won't work now. And that is what you will have to realize, that this is much more serious than some marriage improvement program. The more avenues you seek advice (counselors, programs, friends, relatives, books, etc.), the more varied the advice. So you have to realize everyone will not say the same thing.
I encourage you to not reveal your thoughts and feelings to your WW. She needs to wonder. She needs to be conflicted over her decisions. Don't give her reassurances about your undying love, and how she could never do something to change how you feel, or that you will always be there for her. This is not what you tell a WW!
Sounds strange, I'm sure. The whole WW experience is strange, and painful. There are successes, however, so have hope. Just bear in mind that it takes a long time.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
