WAH with one foot out the door and one in.

[V2pt0]

Oh, and he implied that I need/should be more open and vulnerable because what do I have to lose at this point.

[V2pt0]

Toots, thanks for the feedback. I will take note.

Painter, I am glad you agree. You should be proud too!

Gan, the vulnerably has been more recent as my H started to open up more. A big concern for my H has been open and honest communication, not that he does this well either, so I guess it has been a bit of 180 for me.

[Zues126]

He then asked if I was going to always question and not trust him and who he us with. Basically, he was asking when and if I would be able to fully trust him again.

I don't understand the question or response here.

If I am getting this right:
-he has had an affair
-he hasn't recommitted to the M
-he hasn't apologized for his behavior nor given you any commitment not to do it again

This isn't about trust or forgiveness...he hasn't given you any reason to believe you should trust him.

There are two parts to trust. Him acting in ways that are appropriate, then you letting go of the past and allowing God to heal. He's asking for #2 before he does #1. Fire has to come before smoke.

Does he understand that? Do you?

You can't be so eager for R that you lose sight of this, because it can't work if you're so desperate to forgive that he doesn't even apologize.

[V2pt0]

Ok, just to be clear, I am in no way ready to forgive as H has a great deal to do before that point. I am just asking if his behavior in pushing for conversations about R, opening up, and asking if I can trust him again is a sign that maybe he is starting to move in a positive direction. I will certainly need him to express remorse and really work on M. I am just trying to figure out hiw to engage with these conversations that is is pushing?

[Zues126]

I don't think it's that clear cut. He's very confused, and is all over the map. An affair is like an addiction, and he's bouncing around between desire to be healthy and desire for what he felt he was missing in the M that he was getting from OW.

The problem is he's not seeing this clearly. I think what he wants to do is remain uncommitted, have OW as a crutch potentially (or back up), and then see if the M can build into something that will satisfy all his needs. In his mind if you can forgive him, trust him, become a super W, win him back, and prove to you that the M will be fulfilling BEFORE he recommits.

Problem is that won't work for a number of reasons. One, if he has some deep seeded issues you can't fix those. Two, the presense of OW or even having that avenue available will sabatoge any efforts towards rebuilding because you will never be able to measure up to his impossible standards if he's holding on to his drug of choice and expecting you to match that high so he doesn't go through withdrawal. Three, you simply can't commit put more into the M than he is willing to, and it's delusional for him to expect that.

I'm not sure how you explain that to him, but Starsky and Sandi might be able to help. Starsky has some good talking points like "This experience has given me a better understanding of what you've gone through, and what was missing for you to be fulfilled in our M. If I could do it again I would definitely do some things very differently. If you were willing to recommit to the M you'd find me willing to address any and all issues that lead to it's breakdown, but it would take a commitment because there's simply no way to rebuild trust on a foundation that lacks any commitment or is vulnerable to outside parties. Looks like we both have some decisions to make..."

I'm combining a few, paraphrasing, and adding a bit of my own, but I think that's the general idea from here. If he wants to commit then you can discuss transparency plans, joint counceling, etc. If he's temperature checking, trying to cake eat, or keep you as a plan B (which looks like the case at this point) then you simply have to keep moving on your road and make it clear you're not available as a plan B or to audition for your own M.

[V2pt0]

Zues, this is exactly what newbies like me need to hear. I think it is easy for vets and others that have been on here for a while to forget that some of on here are at the eariler stages of all of this and have no idea on how to proceed through this. We don't even know what we are feeling half the time let alone working on DB.

What I appeciate about your replies is that you acknowledge our newness to all of this and refrain from being condescending. I cannot say that about the replies I have seen being posted on other peoples topics.

This all makes sense to me. I can see that I probably need to have a conversation with H. Assuming he is now leading some R talk, it is good timing to do this?

[Painter]

This was brilliant and I'm printing it out. I'm very much in the same situation with H.

[gan]

The amazing thing, BW, is Mozza wasn't always like that. What you're seeing is Mozza 2.0 - he's a real proof that change is possible. You are getting some great suggestions from him.

In terms of R talks, if he is leading them then I think it is ok to engage - especially since he is wanting you to be more open and vulnerable. But be prepared to say "can I get back to you on that, I need to think on it" and avoid getting into an argument. Don't let the reptile brain kick in!

[Zues126]

BW-

I agree with Gan, since he initiated it's ok to discuss at least in the immediate term (not ongoing).

Personally I might send him an email stating what I did above. KEEP IT SHORT then it might be ok. I might even throw in something sexy in there after "willing to do everything and anything to address the issues", such as hinting at the adventures that await him if he could handle it and maybe even allude to trying out some things he'd asked for in the past. WOW. That would be a BIG 180 and I know it would've been CRITICAL for me to hear.

That would give him the ability to "save face" if he changes his mind as you are making him a big concession- the promise of a better M and no punishing for his bad behavior. Doesn't mean you don't have boundaries or feelings to work through, but you can work through those safely as a team, not as enemies.

Then after that I'd become a bit busy, distant, and start GALing like crazy. Look super hot whenever possible and let him figure out what he wants to do.

That's my two cents, thoughts from a vet?

[EMO1234]

BW05

You sound like you are doing great job, well done.