Card29 XI - Journey

[Card29]

I've never had an EA and can say that I was never tempted to leave or cheat on my WW. I'm not saying I'm immune, but that I agree that I lack the insight of how it can happen. Perhaps I'd be more forgiving, less suspicious.

Thanks for all of your thoughts, Mozza. I haven't posted a lot but I did follow a lot of the dating debate on your threads.

The EA I had was never all that close to PA (I think...), but it happened just like everyone says it does. My ENs were starved, and this other women started fulfilling some of them (everything but sex and other physical things). I would like to think that if she'd stayed here, I would have cut it off, but some distance between us, something. But I can't say with 100% certainty that I would have done that, with how I felt during that time. Before all of that, I just thought you had to be a terrible person to even entertain the thought. I'll never believe that again. I'm still not saying it's justified or okay, I just find it much more understandable and forgiveable. STBX's A has nothing to do with why I wouldn't want to attempt to R with her. That would be a very low hurdle compared to the other mountains we'd have to climb.

[Card29]

I'm not saying we should be dating, just that it's an option. I'll agree that it can make R less likely, for obvious reasons.

I think the real issue here is that if you are not healed and whole from the first relationship and you have done some real serious research about what is wrong with YOURSELF, it is highly likely that you will repeat history with someone else.

I think getting divorced is one of the things you should do as a minimum before you are going to be able to complete this process.

I agree about D. We need to finalize it.

Maybe I need to revisit my 180 list. I have made a lot of changes and done a lot of soul searching, but that was mainly June-through-December. In 2015, I feel like I've sustained most of my changes, some of them even becoming so normal I don't even think about them. But in this year I've just been living and not spending enough time "working on me". Here are my personal turnarounds that I feel like I've sustained so far:

- NMMNG. Still some work to do, but I am much more honest and forthcoming in every arena of my life (work, love, social, parent). There is a line from NMMNG that has been burned in my brain since I read it, although I don't remember it verbatim. Something like: MNG's think they are great guys because they never lie. Nothing could be further from the truth. NMMNG are at their essence dishonest since they don't comminucate how they really feel, and morph their character and behavior to try to be what they think others expect of them.

- I am the most-released from porn that I've felt since I first saw it when I was 13 or 14. I had a bad few weeks in January or so, but I'd say 7 of the last 8 months have been porn free. Before that, going back to my teen years, I was doing well if I went a week without porn. A couple of nights ago I realized I hadn't even thought about porn in 3-4 weeks. Even during my "good stretches" before all of this, it was a list a mild challenge every 2-3 days to resist. I do think porn is wrong in general, but that's not why I am excited to eliminate it from my life. It killed my sense of intimacy, which I can feel is fully alive inside of me again.

- I always thought I was a good listener, but I realized that sometimes I formulate opinions/answers while the other person is still talking. Once I did that, I would ignore everything else they said and wait for my chance to talk. Now I wait until they finish and even try to leave a pause before I say anything, just so I have a chance to process everything they said.


I think some of my 180's can only be implemented in a R. Like sleeping in bed, not on the couch (although I'm trying to go to bed at a more "adult" hour, like 10-11, not 1-3 am). Or spending the adequate quality time with my SO.


I don't know if I'll ever be able to say "yes, I'm ready!" Maybe I will! I just don't know. There is a lingering doubt in me right now. I don't know if that is just uncertainty, or if there is really something more that I need to process. As you guys have suggested, there probably is something real there, it's not just fear of the unknown. I guess I need to get through the D, then have some more time to think.

Man you guys rock!!

[Card29]

Oh, GB, I can't believe I didn't think of it.... congrats for whooping my Louisville Cardinals (hence my username) in the bowl game...I actually have two cousins that are hardcore UGA fans. My phone was blowing up during that game haha

[uRworthy]

Freddy, I am not sure if I ever wrote this to you. I have been around a long time. Far longer than my register date. I dont post to a lot of people. Mainly because I like to stay with people throughout their journey if I can.

But also because in order for me to post to someone, I need to feel a connection of some sort. It can be how they write, what they write, similarities in our sitches, or just something about them that resonates with me.

I liked your willingness to "hear" what we have to say and your wanting to work on yourself.

A lot of times, when we feel better, stronger, happier, we kind of slack off a bit on doing the work. I am not saying you are doing that, not at all.

I believe that you should finish your stuff before you start a new relationship. I dont mean finish working on you because that should continue for the rest of our lives.

But I mean people should get divorced if that is how their sitch turns out, before dating. I think people should be alone for awhile and just live, ya know?

You say that she hasnt been with anyone since February like its a long time...its two months.

I care about you. I hope you know that. I am glad you are looking at it the way you are.

Just live your life. Get good with you. Plenty of time for all of that.

If it's meant to be, it will be. Til then...keep walking your path.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

But I feel like you can have commitment and betrayal without paperwork, a ceremony, ring, etc.

Agreed, although I'm more cautious due to timing and readiness, not whether or not some paperwork has been filled out yet. But it's in the works. Actually mailing out a form today.

Whether or not paperwork was finished would depend on context. Am I ready? Eh I'm not 100% sure, but it's not like our papers were filed in the heat of the moment during her A and early stages of our S.


When you equate dating with being the same or equal to being married you are devaluing marriage. By definition the word "affair" can fit, but what your sister's friend did to her ex-boyfriend was not infidelity, not adultery and in no way compared even remotely to your wife cheating on you. When DATING a boyfriend or girlfriend, despite any promises to the contrary it is a well known and accepted risk that they can DATE other people. It isn't immoral. When married couples share their marital story and include the fact that "Bob was dating my best friend Mary at the time and we kind of clicked from the moment we met...and we starting dating within a week or two" nobody is shocked, surprised or indignant about the way the couple met and started dating. It's unfortunate for "Mary" but dating is brutal.....which is one reason people are attracted to marriage. Why get married if a promise not to cheat on your girlfriend/boyfriend is equal to a marital vow?

Similarly, when you reduce marriage to a piece of paper that you can void anytime you like in opposition to the marital vows you actually took...

"To love, honor and cherish until death do us part"
"in sickness and in health" (waywardism is a sickness)
"in good times and bad"

You diminish marriage and the commitment it represents as an institution.


I mean, couldn't your wife just say that your marriage was dead and you had had that emotional affair on her thereby, in her mind, terminating the marital contract and reducing it to nothing more than a "piece of paper"????

When your daughter eventually asks you about what honestly happened between you and mom how will you explain precisely that what "mom" did was very hurtful and disrespectful to you, that your prior EA doesn't justify what she ultimately did and your dating others before the divorce was actually completely different because HER FAMILY was just a piece of paper by that time??? Because you can't explain that...so, you just don't. You bury it and decide not to discuss it with her or by saying "Mom and Dad loved each other but we just didn't work and weren't meant to be together". Daughter then grows up viewing relationships and people as disposable. Marriage as pretend institution which nobody really takes to mean much of anything more than pretty dress up day and a "piece of paper". Kind of like a little more formal "dating" that you can walk away from when the moment suits you.

Your values become your destiny.

It's not like you live in Canada and have to wait over a year to even file the divorce. Your wife just filed the end of February. Two months ago. I know our perspectives clash (pretty easy for me to say this as a recovered husband) but had my situation a decade ago gone like yours I probably would have fallen for the same thing and dated too (I'm not better than you or preaching). However in the last ten years supporting persons in your position I've seen countless situations like yours turn around during the divorce process. When your wife's affair ends (and they always do) there's a good chance recovery can be attempted. Plus, about 6% of all divorced couples remarry some day. That's not likely to happen when you throw away your commitment/vows and reduce them to just a piece of paper.

I'm just a sucker for hope and when anyone takes this route it usually means the end of hope for your marriage. Why should she care about your marriage, respect you or reconsider you as an option when you seem to have moved on just fine discarding all notions that entity which was your union was truly special?

God is bigger than you, your wife, OM, me, Michele Weiner Davis...than everyone. He can do tremendous things for you if you put your faith in Him and His plan for your life. Putting your faith in the marriage he provided you and that you vowed to Him to uphold might be a good idea FOR YOU whether you recover or not. How big is your God?

I sympathize greatly with you and your predicament but yet, marriage matters.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

When reading nmmng or worse, mark so not a man son please be careful buying everything you read. They are just a couple men sharing some ideas about being men but they really miss the boat about being kind decent "men" when they cross over into the PUA stuff or "how to bang women like a rock star".

God made you a man. As a man, you define what being a man means to you. There are way too many men over there who think banging women makes them men, makes them happy and/or makes them better than other men (and certainly better than women who are evidently here to serve men's needs).

Take what you need and leave the rest. Exercise discernment and don't stick around there long or you'll be another one of the guys blabbering on all intellectually and then throwing in how they banged the hottest trainer at their gym last night. It can be like prep high school locker room meets sex addiction anonymous meetings with everyone trying to impress everyone like psycho-babbling roosters.

[Mozza]

GB: Have you read Models and NMMNG cover to cover?

[Card29]

It's not a pick-up book, and it's not about being a jerk. It's about being honest and true to yourself, not being deceitful and a chameleon. GB, I did "define what being a man means" for me, and I came up with the "make sure everyone knows you're nice", chameleon plan. Are you saying we should not try to learn from others?

I don't believe I have to "bang women" to be a man and have voiced that opinion on here before.

GB, going back to your previous post:

When DATING a boyfriend or girlfriend, despite any promises to the contrary it is a well known and accepted risk that they can DATE other people.

Couldn't disagree more. I do think there is a distinction that you can leave the relationship at anytime and date. But to remain in the R while also dating and sleeping with another is probably just as hurtful as if it was done during an M. But we don't have to agree.

I mean, couldn't your wife just say that your marriage was dead and you had had that emotional affair on her thereby, in her mind, terminating the marital contract and reducing it to nothing more than a "piece of paper"????

Putting your faith in the marriage he provided you and that you vowed to Him to uphold might be a good idea FOR YOU whether you recover or not. How big is your God?

She could define whatever terms she wants, I guess. It's her prerogative. I'm not "giving up" on the M because she had an A. I suspected for months that she was having an A yet I would have given my right leg to reconcile anyway. I've been going through this since June, not the last 2 months. And she's on her 3rd relationship in that time (that I know of), with several other random dates and hook-ups mixed in (that I know of). Meanwhile, I finally relized that I was going to be fine, same for D2, regardless of WAW coming back or not, and decided I wasn't going to wait any longer.

When your daughter eventually asks you about what honestly happened between you and mom how will you explain precisely that what "mom" did was very hurtful and disrespectful to you, that your prior EA doesn't justify what she ultimately did and your dating others before the divorce was actually completely different because HER FAMILY was just a piece of paper by that time??? Because you can't explain that...so, you just don't. You bury it and decide not to discuss it with her or by saying "Mom and Dad loved each other but we just didn't work and weren't meant to be together". Daughter then grows up viewing relationships and people as disposable. Marriage as pretend institution which nobody really takes to mean much of anything more than pretty dress up day and a "piece of paper". Kind of like a little more formal "dating" that you can walk away from when the moment suits you.

(I'm not better than you or preaching)

GB, I would just be careful guilt-tripping people you don't know much about. I welcome 2x4's but only if they're coming from people who really know what's going on with me. I do realize that you care and appreciate your time.

[Card29]

I liked your willingness to "hear" what we have to say and your wanting to work on yourself.

A lot of times, when we feel better, stronger, happier, we kind of slack off a bit on doing the work. I am not saying you are doing that, not at all.

I do believe I have slacked. I know you couldn't know that, especially since I have not posted as frequently this Winter/Spring as I did last Summer/Fall.

I believe that you should finish your stuff before you start a new relationship. I dont mean finish working on you because that should continue for the rest of our lives.

But I mean people should get divorced if that is how their sitch turns out, before dating. I think people should be alone for awhile and just live, ya know?

I do agree. I think last week when we had our "talk" I felt like I was ready and she wasn't, but now I do think it's both of us that aren't ready, although I'm probably closer. And also, I do understand that this is not advice for me and this one girl. It's for me in general, and who knows what will happen with her. Focused on me.

You say that she hasnt been with anyone since February like its a long time...its two months.

I didn't mean to imply it was a long or adequate amount of time to develop. But I think I foolishly compared her post-R behavior to my STBX, who hasn't been single for more than a week or two since she left me. So 2 months single and the desire to remain single until she can "figure herself out" and "trust herself again" sounded good to me, for her sake. But I shouldn't have compared her to anyone else, and I just need to let her live her life and hope, for her sake, that she does find time to learn about herself.

I care about you. I hope you know that. I am glad you are looking at it the way you are.

Just live your life. Get good with you. Plenty of time for all of that.

If it's meant to be, it will be. Til then...keep walking your path.

Big thumbs up from Cardland! ((uR))

[Card29]

Okay guys, I need some guidance.

STBX's BF broke up with her a couple of days ago. It came as absolutely no surprise to me. They'd already broken up once or twice (only been together since January). He has 3 kids, she still has not done any work on herself since BD, as far as I know. Only thing I'm aware of is that she has taken new meds for her mental health issues, mainly depression. I just didn't see it working out, but I was indifferent to whether it did or not. I kept my mouth shut.

Well somehow, STBX was shocked by the break-up, which is apparently "final" this time, even with them already breaking up in their short time together. Whatever, I guess hindsight will be 20/20 for her like it is with the LBS's (including me) here. Now I think their break-up and the entirety of the last 11 months, as well as her mental problems, seem to be crashing down on her. She is an absolute train wreck. Taking extra doses of sleeping pills, forgetting meds that have kept her somewhat balanced, etc.

On top of that, she has literally no one here to help her, to really help her. All of her best friends moved away at some point 1-4 years ago. 100% of her family is out of town. Closest is 3 hrs away. Her cousin, and lifelong best friend, lives 5 hours away. The best friend she's had for the last year or so just got engaged and is about to move to NYC, so they aren't as close anymore. That leaves me. And I soooo want her to feel better. Not just about this break-up, but in general. But I can't be her shoulder to cry on, her mentor, etc, all of the time. I just don't know if I can be that for her right now. But I have been the last 2 days. I've came over to her apt for an hour or so the last two evenings, because she was just starving for some kind of human interaction (although both times I came over with the impression I was simply dropping off or picking up the dog). She didn't go to work. And today I met her at a house that she's thinking of renting. It was to help her evaluate the house but I think the main thing was for her to have me there with her.

She's of course mentioning suicidal thoughts (not overtly making the threat). Today I think she was still messed up from the pills she took the night before. She was kind of slurring her words and was not nearly as sharp as she normally is. It really hurt me to see her like that.

So here are my issues:

- D2. STBX is scheduled to get her in a day or two, but if she's in any condition close to this, I don't think she should have her. She would hopefully agree with me. She's normally reasonable about D2 when she takes additional meds, usually telling me beforehand so I can pick her up, regardless of D2 schedule

- I'm trying to get her to call her IC, which she hasn't seen in months, to my knowledge

- I've reminded her to call the pharmacy to get a critical med refilled

- She says she's texted with two of her out-of-town friends. Should I call one of them? I know that a lot of the extremity is just from the rawness of the breakup and will hopefully wear off. I was thinking of calling her cousin to make sure she understands exactly what state STBX is in.


I'm mainly venting here because I'm not talking to my family about this. But any wise thoughts or questions out there? I don't want to send the wrong message to her by being "too close", but if I need to I'll help her get over this hump.