Hello, I am three months from my divorce date and have read all of Sandi2's threads on WW, but my wife separated due to what I will admit is 70% my fault 30% mine. I was controlling and emotionally abusive. In the last eight months I have done more 180 than I thought possible. Wife says she is not in a A, what to do as this seems to be a WAW.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
As Cadet wrote, I'm so sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice. I've been on the forum since Christmas Day and I'm in a similar situation as you.
Not too long ago, I believe it was Cadet, or Sandi in someone else's thread, who wrote there really isn't much difference between a WAW (mine) and a WW. A WAW is also a WW.
So, to answer your question, I don't think there is a thread on WAW vs WW.
Let's see what the vets on this board have to say.
May I make a suggestion? Setup a "signature" when you have time. An example is what you'll see at the end of my post. It helps people who are new to your situation catch up rather quickly.
I will send out a prayer for you today. I wish you well.
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
You can set up a signature after you are off moderation. Not yet.
Keep Posting.
provett and Cadet,
Sorry, I forgot about that.
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
You said you read my thread on the subject. In my first post on the thread about the WW, I explained what I believe to be the major difference. To my knowledge, there are no other threads about WAW vs WW. It's possible, even probable (based on the vast amount of threads on the board) that a WAW is wayward. However, there are a few WAW'S who are not wayward. IMO, it is important to understand the difference, whether you are receiving or giving the advice.
There are those wives who have suffered abuse who leave the M. That does not make them wayward. I believe there are actually some wives who leave a M without a wayward thought or feeling in their body. Michele gives a description on the home page about a WAW. It does not bring abuse into the article, nor does mention any wayward behavior on the part of that WAW in her article.
The majority of our newcomers have a wayward spouse, but certainly not every single one. When the person giving advice comes from a marriage with a WAS......but no waywardness, then their advice is usually going to have a different tone from the person who has experienced waywardness in the M. That is not a criticism, it is an honest observation I have made over the past eight years. They are usually the more inspirational and encouraging type of posts/advice that a discouraged newcomer welcomes.
I believe a person who has had the personal experience of being a wayward or closely connected (such as their souse) and come through it.....is going to give a "tougher" (for lack of a better word) approach to the newcomers. Every wayward person who I have witnessed posting in the past, has that same brutally direct advice. Again, this is not meant to be criticism toward any one person. I only say this as an attempt to answer your question.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Well said! Thank you for clearing that up for our newcomer provett, and refreshing my memory, too.
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
I think the heart of the question, is how exactly should one approach a non-wayward WAS?
The way to approach a wayward is well documented, sandi's thread being the prime example. However, that thread states many times "this advice is for waywards, walk aways are different..." but never elaborates!
Me: 35 Her (WAW): 34 D8, S5, D2 T:16, M:9 BD + D: 4/3/2015 EA Confirmed 5/6/2015 Separation under the same roof
Most of these questions were discussed in my threads about the WW/WAW.
If she has no waywardness, that would cause me to think the bulk of the problems in the MR came from the H. In some cases, it could be years of dealing with emotional stress without replenishing her needs. People need good things to balance the bad stuff in their life. Today's young families are spread so thin trying to have it all while raising kids. At the end of the day, it is the couple's intimate needs/ interrelationship that suffers.
The approach is about the same. Following the 37 rules, for example, applies to most cases. The most important step is backing off and giving her space. Everything feels like pressure to her. Do not pursue her, whatsoever. Just leave her alone and really go to work improving/changing those issues she had with you. But she needs time, and most guys want to start "showing" her his changes in about a week! That's just funny, b/c it takes longer to really change.
The principles Michele teaches in Divorce Remedy applies to the WAS. She does have chapters on infidelity and midlife crisis.
If your W is wayward in her heart, or outwardly displaying acts of waywardness, then she has already left the M emotionally and mentally. If there is a third party involved, the LBH must take a much tougher approach with his W. I have been saden to discover how many men are afraid to take this bolder action.
Anyway, if you are confident there are no signs of waywardness, begin applying Michele's basic principles. The WAW needs to believe the M will be much better than when she left it. That does not happen over night, nor does it come about with your lip service. Know what I mean? Your words are useless. It's your actions that will convince her.
And gentlemen, may I just say one more thing. All cheaters lie. I have yet to read a post where the H asks the W (the first time) if there is another guy.....and she's completely honest with him (if there is a third party). So just b/c you asked her and she said "no"........doesn't mean a thing!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
And gentlemen, may I just say one more thing. All cheaters lie. I have yet to read a post where the H asks the W (the first time) if there is another guy.....and she's completely honest with him (if there is a third party).
So just b/c you asked her and she said "no"........doesn't mean a thing!
Except that she lied to you again.
I also need to say that WAW or WW or MLC does not matter to the LBS, our actions are the same:
DETACH, GAL, make ourselves into a person that only a fool would leave.
She stopped wearing her wedding ring after she filed and when I asked her if there was someone else, she responded that I did not have a right to ask her. The only sign I have that there maybe someone is she is always texting and very protective of her phone. Maybe I am in blind denial???? I moved out after the filling.
Is it a good idea not to respond to her texts and ignore her phone calls? Or just connect when she reaches out (we have two young children).
Do most WAW go through the journey of loss and regret that has been described her as having a baby? I think I have got the message that they do it sooner if left alone as in Sandi's 37 steps. Reason I ask, she does not seem to me to be in that much distress since all of this has started.
Yes, I got DB back in December. The reason Sandi's posts are so popular, they address specific actions vs concepts. I have read six or so books, I get the macro idea, but how to deal with what I am seeing as it is specific to me. Is it normal for wife to not wear ring after papers are filed, is this just further proof that she emotionally checked out of the marriage months or years ago as o have suspected?
What is the most eye opening about his whole experience is the common denominator in the WAW actions that have been documented in there threads.
The most untapped need that I see is specific actions in specific circumstances, as being so close to the relationship and the emotions easily block the clarity needed by a third party.
I asked her if there was someone else, she responded that I did not have a right to ask her. The only sign I have that there maybe someone is she is always texting and very protective of her phone. Maybe I am in blind denial????
These are signs that that there is an extremely high probability that there is someone else that is supporting her in a EA or PA.
I'm sorry, but you'll need to prepare yourself for this.
You have my thoughts, support, and sympathy.
Me: 45 W43 S7, Foster S9 (Planning to adopt post divorce) D mentioned Feb 2015, Wife served 3/24/2015. She moved out 4/15/2015.
The most untapped need that I see is specific actions in specific circumstances, as being so close to the relationship and the emotions easily block the clarity needed by a third party.
I agree with that wholeheartedly.
It's so hard to see clearly through all the crazy emotions, the insecurity, the fear, the panic. Ugh.
Me: 35 Her (WAW): 34 D8, S5, D2 T:16, M:9 BD + D: 4/3/2015 EA Confirmed 5/6/2015 Separation under the same roof
Mr. Bond is right, the first thing to do is read DR or DB, if you haven't yet.
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She stopped wearing her wedding ring after she filed and when I asked her if there was someone else, she responded that I did not have a right to ask her. The only sign I have that there maybe someone is she is always texting and very protective of her phone. Maybe I am in blind denial????
My first thought would normally be that you are in denial, however, all you've really told us was that you were emotionally abusive. If you will give us your story, then it will help us have a better overall picture and we can give you more precise advice.
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Do most WAW go through the journey of loss and regret that has been described her as having a baby? I think I have got the message that they do it sooner if left alone as in Sandi's 37 steps. Reason I ask, she does not seem to me to be in that much distress since all of this has started.
I believe I used that analogy to explain the process in piecing the M back together, or as some men refer to what it takes for their "old" wife to return. Unfortunately, some do not find their way back to the M and they move on to another life and another man. I want to believe that most people who are honest with themselves and know they caused a lot of pain for someone who loved them, surely has as at least a twinge of regret for their bad behavior....at some point before they die. Even if that were true, every person does not make a decision based on their regret, they just live with it. Sometimes it's too late when they finally come to terms and face the fact they made a really bad decision. However, they may never admit it to another soul. And, let's face it, some marry another man and seem happy with him and never regret leaving the first M. We just have no way of knowing if every person does or not. What you need to decide for yourself is -- do you wait around for her to hopefully feel regret some day, or see her suffer consequences of her bad decisions? Would that help your feelings or encourage you that there may be hope for reconciliation?
What newcomers need to understand is that no two couples are exactly alike in this process. Their timing is not going to be the same. One H may do all the right moves, and his WW faces particular loses and/or consequences, and eventually she regrets her actions and finally wants to work on her M. Perhaps they will be reconciled much sooner than another couple, but it still depends on the people....their actions....and timing. It still takes more time than the newcomer dreams it will take, upon first arriving here.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Is it normal for wife to not wear ring after papers are filed, is this just further proof that she emotionally checked out of the marriage months or years ago as o have suspected?
Based on posts here on the board, it is common, yes. I believe it is her way of making a definite statement that she is done with this marriage. She wants you to get the message, as well as others.
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What is the most eye opening about his whole experience is the common denominator in the WAW actions that have been documented in there threads.
I would say the common denominator is the W hiding an A from her unsuspecting H.
Last edited by sandi2; 05/04/1505:43 PM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Is it a good idea not to respond to her texts and ignore her phone calls? Or just connect when she reaches out (we have two young children).
If it is not about the kids or something unusually important, I would suggest you be very cautious about responding. She dumped you. Why would you respond to her reaching out? If she is a WW, she will not see it as attractive. She hasn't had time to really experience life without you, nor go through the process. What most men see as the W "reaching out" is really her checking to see if he is still invested emotionally. Once she is satisfied, she will suddenly pull away.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
"The most untapped need that I see is specific actions in specific circumstances, as being so close to the relationship and the emotions easily block the clarity needed by a third party."
What you don't seem to understand is that NO ONE can give you specific advice that will be GUARANTEED to work in your specific situation. The primary lesson in DB is to do what works. If while you're interacting with her, she starts acting favorably, then increase what you're doing. If she starts reacting negatively, stop doing whatever it is you're doing. Simple as that.
There's going to have to come a time where you have to actually start applying what you've learned in DB. Reading the other books should be supplemental to your DB efforts, but I have a feeling that they're just confusing you because you see them all as strategies or plans. They aren't.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Is it a good idea not to respond to her texts and ignore her phone calls? Or just connect when she reaches out (we have two young children).
If it is not about the kids or something unusually important, I would suggest you be very cautious about responding. She dumped you. Why would you respond to her reaching out?
Ok here's a great example of a confusing situation.
WAW contacts me about something interesting/exciting in her personal life.
Solution oriented thinking says "this is what I want, I need to encourage this behavior". So I should respond with PMA, active listening, validation, etc. Remind her that she likes sharing her life with me.
But you are saying, basically consistent with LRT, "don't reward her reaching out to you".
Again, this is WAW, not WW. (yeah hit me over the head with the denial 2x4 if you like). WW I totally agree you shouldn't respond to.
WAW, who is leaving because of emotional distancing, no intimacy (emotional), and bad communication....ignoring her doesn't seem like the way to go.
Me = LBS - always overanalyzing every freaking move she makes...
Alright, per MrBonds advice, try something and watch the results.
In the emotional state I'm in, I feel so much pressure that every move has to be perfect. Bah.
Last edited by Winhamn; 05/04/1506:36 PM.
Me: 35 Her (WAW): 34 D8, S5, D2 T:16, M:9 BD + D: 4/3/2015 EA Confirmed 5/6/2015 Separation under the same roof
My first thought would normally be that you are in denial, however, all you've really told us was that you were emotionally abusive. If you will give us your story, then it will help us have a better overall picture and we can give you more precise advice.
The short version, I came from a dis-functional home, she came from one too. I rejected what I came from, she accepted what she came from. I have traits of what I came from, poor communication, selfishness and using W as punching bag. As a result, she always sided with my/her family's abusive behavior and reject me - as being the problem. She might have been right, as I tried to escape from this environment I grew up in - I would write people off.
Case in point, the MIL has no friends - I mean none, very selfish, domineering, know-it-all and just plain gruff... When MIL acted nuts and hurt everyone, W would lie and say it never happened, MIL never said it did or those things, even though many people were just plain shocked at how nuts she was. Being the weak person I was, I got very angry and just digressed as a person to someone that was very negative and becoming anti-social (W talked negatively to everyone we knew - maybe as self defense for her??) Now that I am out of my fog, I see that I allowed myself to become someone I never was, however, that is no excuse for yelling, screaming and cursing the W. We went to three difference MCs and W would openly lie about MIL (she has abandonment issues with MIL, as relayed to me from W family), even though I begged her to tell the truth. I was as open and truthful in MC as could be since I wanted it to work. I got very angry and abusive as I saw no loyalty from W - really no respect - but I was not acting respectful either. Can I and am I willing to accept MIL and others that act this way for my family, I can!
Today, I am guilty of the MIL being unhappy and changing your outlook on life, destroying my W personality - person she never was, and so on........per the W. As I first stated, if I am 70% at fault, I have done plenty of counseling, mentoring, praying and changing to remedy that 70%. The only issue is that I digress as a person when I am around W again as the emotions are very tough to overcome. Of course, no blame has been taken on her part. I have been told I have changed, but not "enough" for the M. At this point, W has not admitted to 1% blame, which is common I guess from what I read at this point.
As I write this, the though of why I would want to stay in the M comes to mind, the only thing I can think of is that I have lost much of my selfishness and see the big picture and how this affects everyone, mostly the children. I have heard that the most hopeless M sometimes make it, I don't see it making it right now as it is pretty hopeless, but I have faith in God to restore what I cannot. I am using this season of my life to allow God to mold me into the person we wants me to be, and he still has some ways to go.
W has stated that she left the M for survival, I can see that.
Actually, you haven't detailed your marital history. Tell us what your M has been like from beginning till now. You point alot of fingers at your W and MIL even though you say you are at fault. Be as impartial as possible and tell us your role in all of this.
Be honest. The more information you can share with us, the better we will be able to help you.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
First M for both, I think using W as punching bag (verbally and emotionally - never physical) should indicate that, also the 70% should be an indication of my culpability too.
I was selfish from the start, I think W acted as best she could for first year or two, and the last ten years she started to react more and more negatively and finally threw in the towel.
Point of W and MIL, not see or wanting to change to stay in relationships, MIL with everyone, W, just me and M.
We need more details. You've read many of the other posts, we need details like that. Like, what would get your started abusing your W in that way? Were you always like that? Etc. Also explain the good times also.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
One thing I have not found help on is what to do about several financial aspects.
Since most women are attracted to men that are successful, should you try and make the most when you are self-employed, or should you try and protect your self and not possibility finance your XW single lifestyle?
I know Sandi has talked about financial reality sooner than later for the WAW, but it seems like a balancing act of trying to show you are capable of supporting a family, vs showing your cards and giving them more of a reason to want a divorce and you supporting them going forward.
I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you. I'm not sure how to answer your last post.
One thing I will add, is that I'm not so sure this premise of yours is correct: "Since most women are attracted to men that are successful"
Being a guy, I can't be sure. But what I've learned thru the years is that many women are attracted to a confident man. That doesn't mean he has to be successful. I suppose it doesn't hurt, but I wouldn't focus on that.
Take care.
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
But you are saying, basically consistent with LRT, "don't reward her reaching out to you"
No, that is how people get things mixed up, or mix my words up. I was referring to the owner of this thread and his wayward wife. You clearly said in your reply that your W is not wayward.
Winhamn, I believe some actions should be based on whether or not the wife is wayward or if she's leaving b/c of other reasons (the H has abused her, or whatever). And, yes, she can be a WAW and not be in an A.
I would have to refresh my brain with your story before saying a lot, but just looking at the first two pages you made me this statement about your W:
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She's had a ONS PA before, which she readily admitted without me asking, and an EA before, where she gaslighted me, lied extensively, etc.
You said it had a different "feel" this time and you don't believe there is another man in the picture. I suppose time will tell.
Here is what I would advise you, without knowing more about your stitch. Continue to follow the 37 rules. Don't initiate contacts with her, but if she contacts you, then respond. Do this until you know if she has been deceiving you.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
You have given us some addtional details, it's a good start. But 2 days ago, in another MrBond post this was asked:
"Like, what would get your started abusing your W in that way? Were you always like that? Etc. Also explain the good times also."
I don't think you answered those questions. That would enable us to give you better advice.
Hang in there!
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Provett, my heart goes out to you about the MIL problem. If your W is not able to be honest about her mother, it could be a way she learned to cope as a child, IDK. Not admitting things about her mother to a professional, seems to show deep problems, and as you said....both of you come from dysfunctional families. That puts several strikes against a successful marriage, however, nothing is impossible if people turn their lives over to God.
Do the two you live in the same town as MIL? How old is her mother? Moving away might help to a degree, but as long as she can dominate and control your W and the M, she will. Without cooperation from your W, you are very limited on what you can do in regards to this particular situation with her mother.
Do you have children?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Provett, my heart goes out to you about the MIL problem. If your W is not able to be honest about her mother, it could be a way she learned to cope as a child, IDK. Not admitting things about her mother to a professional, seems to show deep problems, and as you said....both of you come from dysfunctional families. That puts several strikes against a successful marriage, however, nothing is impossible if people turn their lives over to God.
Do the two you live in the same town as MIL? How old is her mother? Moving away might help to a degree, but as long as she can dominate and control your W and the M, she will. Without cooperation from your W, you are very limited on what you can do in regards to this particular situation with her mother.
Do you have children?
Thanks Sandi, we live in the same town as MIL, W lives with MIL, two small children. W's family actually warned me about the MIL a number of years ago, that if W cannot detach from MIL, didn't know how M would survive. W says she has "no choice" about the D, I think MIL said "no way you can back out" when MIL gave W retainer money for the D. W says maybe willing to date LBH once D is finalized, which is nuts to me. W is trying to be super social butterfly, like I have never seen someone try before, which is strange because MIL has zero social skills. It seems to be some kind of reactive/protective behavior.
Back to LBH, trying to see that this is an opportunity to make the changes I needed to, which I am. I never dealt with MIL the way I should have, I just reread DB and see that my actions towards others can change them, I have seen this work for me over the past several months.
