Surrendering this battle to win the war.

[Pyrite]

And though she is stubbornly against anything that suggests that maybe destroying her family isn't in her best interest...at some point she may hit ROCK BOTTOM.

this highlights one point - she hit rock bottom. she ended her M. Now she is on the upside. how strong is she? can she beat out all the negatives? with doting OM on her arm ( foreigner - desperate to stay in country to boot - so no boat rocking on his side) - odds are on her side.

Looking over my shoulder is nothing but a tripping hazard. If she taps me on the shoulder, I might turn around. If it was today or next week I surely would. But in 6 months time? When the kids are settled. The house is sold. I can be the leader of my family. Me and my girls. But she is capable to be the leader of hers.

[Pyrite]

Me again. OK so i feel childish here. What answer will i be happy with -

1. YES Py, you are right it is hopeless, give up....
2. NO Py, there is always hope .....

I think it is both maybe.

2. is obviously true. there is a point where it becomes stupid (extreme e.g. - she dies).

1. is where I am. I am/have giving/given up. The "..." at the end of the sentence could and should be that I still have to do all the same things anyway. I can't consolidate being hopeful and doing these things PURELY for myself

[Winhamn]

Hope is dangerous. Very dangerous.

[Zues126]

Py: "this highlights one point - she hit rock bottom. she ended her M. Now she is on the upside. how strong is she? can she beat out all the negatives? with doting OM on her arm ( foreigner - desperate to stay in country to boot - so no boat rocking on his side) - odds are on her side."

Z: Yes, obviously it is nothing but down hill from here. The destruction of her family doesn't impact her at all, not when she's got a new relationship stemming from an A that has a near foolproof 6% chance at lasting success.

Py: "Looking over my shoulder is nothing but a tripping hazard. If she taps me on the shoulder, I might turn around. If it was today or next week I surely would. But in 6 months time? When the kids are settled. The house is sold. I can be the leader of my family. Me and my girls. But she is capable to be the leader of hers...
Me again. OK so i feel childish here. What answer will i be happy with -
1. YES Py, you are right it is hopeless, give up....
2. NO Py, there is always hope .....
I think it is both maybe.
2. is obviously true. there is a point where it becomes stupid (extreme e.g. - she dies).
1. is where I am. I am/have giving/given up. The "..." at the end of the sentence could and should be that I still have to do all the same things anyway. I can't consolidate being hopeful and doing these things PURELY for myself"

Z: It doesn't matter. YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT AND IT CAN'T CONTROL YOU. There is nothing you can do to control the outcome. And that fact shouldn't control what you choose to do from here.

Either way you will suffer. You still seem to talk like if you give up you'll feel better. DETACHING will make a difference. Giving up on the idea of standing will not.
Either way you will move forward with your life.
Either way you will grow from this.

The only way the outcome could possibly impact you is if you were only on these forums with the assurance you could get her back. If that's the case the changes would only be manipulative, shortlived, and destined for failure.

But if the goal is to be the best Py you can be including:
Standing by your M based on beliefs not feelings
Using this as an opportunity to course correct destructive behavior
Then you can do that no matter what anyone else does.

Oh, and standing by your M doesn't mean clinging to an outcome, or wishing she'll return. It means not burning bridges and letting nature take it's course. Wherever that course is.

I really think you're overcomplicating this and deceiving yourself. What I really hear coming through is "This hurts so much, I wish I had my M back, but wanting something I can't have hurts, so I don't want to keep wanting it unless I think there's a good chance I can have it, so either I need to see some reason to think there's a chance, or I need to stop wanting it, but I'm having trouble not wanting it anymore, so maybe if I give up that will substitute for detaching..."

Stay the course. You will detach. It takes time. There are no short cuts. It's a long painful road. Most people can't handle that road. Your W couldn't. But the people that do choose that path not because they want to, but because it's who they are. Who are you going to be?

[Smothy]

Zues, what you have written sounds like the cycle I am in.

My IC says that once I got on that treadmill, I was too scared to get off for fear of abandonment and rejection. Self love is such an easy concept but one that most of us find hard to do.

I have to love myself fully, before I can love others and others love me for WHO I AM and give me full acceptance. I was too scared to show whom I am before because of my rejection/ abandonment issues. I am still working towards these.

I am not afraid of being alone, I am afraid of being left alone/ abandoned, if you know what I mean.

[Smothy]

Hope is dangerous. Very dangerous.

I feel that hope is keeping me at this spot of not moving forward, that's why like Pyrite I think I need to jump and abandon the hope of me saving the M.

I need to stop the suffering that hope is giving me as Hope keeps me too attached. For our own sanity we need to detach and let go fully. I am finding this more difficult as I move towards the date of returning to the UK.

[25yearsmlc]

Pyrite,

Please pardon the length of this but I want to address a few themes that seem to come up often in your thread.

First, I agree Mother's Day IS different b/c it's not specifically about the marriage or your r with your wife.

it's about her carrying and then bringing your children into the world, and nursing them and caring for them...whether you are married (or alive) or not.

Your kids are too young to manage this on their own.

Helping them make something for her would be great (a hand print in clay or drawn out and colored with the date and perhaps a frame of it? Just an idea and that would not be too pricey and it's not romantic but it IS thoughtful.

What's your wife's love language? Does she value hand made gifts or the store bought only? (SIDE NOTE I highly recommend the book "Five Love Languages" by Chapman. I suggest everyone read that no matter what stage you're in b/c it'll always be helpful in your R with your wife even if only as the mother of your children).

Helping the kids give her a Mother's Day gift ^^ is not pursuit if done right; it can be a friendly, thoughtful gesture that shows respect for her value as the mother of your children....

If a purchased gift is more to her liking, keep it simple. Involve the children as much as possible b/c it's really from them

EXCEPT it's fine to say "thank you for bringing our children into the world and loving them" and that's it.

AND PLEASE Attach zero expectations from her. Don't look for her to raise her eyebrows and then read into it or if she turns from you don't assume anything. Just help your kids do a kind thing for their mom. It's about teaching them to do this; not about how she reacts to your involvement. Okay? If you cannot manage this without over analyzing and obsessing about her response it may not be a good idea then. In that event I"d just text her a polite thank you.

The other comment I wanted to mention is that no mother is unmoved by the loving interaction of her children with their father.

Seeing the kids with their dad happily playing or bonding, is an emotional turn on.

In your case, I assume there's no direct observation of your parenting. But rest assured that the children tell your wife when they've had a good time or when they miss you, etc. (But the converse is also true, i.e.' they'll tell her when they did not have a good time).

She's not a robot. Of course that hits her. She may repress it AND OR say "too little too late", or it may not be happening if the kids are seeing you cry or losing your temper and no, I'm not suggesting you are.

I"m merely mentioning that if an LBSer is showing all their pain to the kids, it does 2 negative things;

1) it really does harm the well being of the children and they often take on the responsibility of nurturing their parent, rather than the reverse;

AND

2) it's not at all attractive to the WAS. It can come off as needy/clingy and weak or even manipulative.

For me, one of the biggest reasons I had to let go of my anger, (regardless of how justified it might have been)

was b/c it was interfering with my mothering. I was too preoccupied to be fully present with my kids. My anger and resentment were hurting ME and my kids.

( I have no idea what effect it had on my h but it sure didn't attract him back to me.)

Sometimes all we can say at DB land, is what did NOT work for us, and showing my resentment was futile and hurt me and my kids a lot. That, I know for sure.

When I really began to let go of the anger, and all the score keeping and really turned it over to God (my faith definitely grew and was a tremendous aid to my path)

I also GAL, big time, it helped me detach a lot.

It's mandatory to GAL in order to Detach.

I'd like to hear a lot more about what your GAL is like b/c without it, you won't be able to detach.

and Detachment helps your growth, keeps the focus on you, & helps you stay in your sandbox, and out of hers.

Make sense?

Another question.

My D4 repeatedly asks and phrases questions to me about the M? Do you miss mummy? Do you want to live together?

Does she truly say this out of nowhere, or is it b/c she sees your pain and wants to understand it?



It is getting increasingly difficult to answer "neutrally", and I am getting more and more p***ed off that I can't just tell her "Mummy doesn't want to try. Mummy already has OM".

how have others dealt with this? opinions?

I'd venture to say that most of us faced similar questions. If you're being asked the same question repeatedly then your answer is obviously not sufficing.


My DB coach said that unless I was 100% certain that a divorce was coming and soon, (not a year in advance b/c that is way too long for a child to grasp and it looms over their heads too long as well)

you don't say it.

When my d's would ask if we were going to divorce, I'd say

"I sure hope not, b/c I have loved your dad a long time." Or something similar.

It's a positive true statement, yet not a denial of reality.

ALSO I made a point to reassure them if/when they pressed me on it b/c often their biggest fear is effectively losing a parent.

They need to know that even "if daddy and mommy don't live together anymore, we will share you b/c we both love you so much". They have to know they are Not losing a parent AND that the LBSer will be alright "alone".

IT's way too easy to over rely on our children's love to sustain us. Ends up burdening them at far too young an age. Pretty unfair really.

(IF you are in the mood for a "message" from a song, listen to Kelly Clarkson's "Because of You". It's about her parents divorce and one parent's pain effectively removing that parent from her life, emotionally, for a long time. Don't listen to it if you're already feeling low).


So back to DBing...what are your GAL activities this month? And your 180s?

Any short term goals?

Remember that 180s don't have to be observed by her for you to do them b/c the 180s have 2+ purposes; only one of which directly involves the WAS.

Those 180s are to counter the negatives the WAS has of the LBSer with new or different Positives...for instance,

if one complaint about you happened to be that you are often late,

You'd become MR PUNTUAL, often arriving early for appointments, for instance.

You demonstrate change that makes her 'data" about you invalid, inaccurate or just no longer applicable.

As you go down the list of her justifications for leaving and address the ones you felt were valid,

you greatly lessen her arsenal...

AND the second reason you do the 180s is b/c you want to become the best, most loving, strong Pyrite that you can become.

So how is that ^^^ all going?

[25yearsmlc]

Hope is dangerous. Very dangerous.

I feel that hope is keeping me at this spot of not moving forward, that's why like Pyrite I think I need to jump and abandon the hope of me saving the M.


Please read or re read the DB books. GAL is mandatory to Detaching and Detaching is mandatory to peace of mind. It is NOT "Giving up", it's moving forward and the difference is not merely semantics.

You need to stop the obsessive thoughts and the "loop de loop" of "WHAT IF/WHERE IS SHE?""

and the totally unsatisfactory experience of always asking WHY? WHY? WHY?
I should know, I wasted a year of my life asking that question. I still don't think my own h knows why. More important, what answer would have been "good" for me to hear? There's no way I will ever be able to wrap my brain around my h's choices then.

But here's a TIP: You CAN manage to stay married and be happy, without always understanding why our spouse did something. But you need to stop asking b/c that takes the focus off of your own work. Accept that you may never understand exactly why she is making her choices OR that the reasons for it are too painful to see on your end.

What matters is how you cope with all of that.

And the ONLY way I know how to do that, is by GAL. This can include a lot of prayer too, but it's for sure going to require movement on your end.

Not stagnation. Don't confuse standing still (or wallowing in pain) with Standing for your marriage.

That tends to stall growth AND ironically leads to the end of marriages prematurely.

Meaning, if you GAL for real,

then you will begin to ENJOY YOUR LIFE and that makes all of this DBing a heck of lot easier.

Make sense?

I need to stop the suffering that hope is giving me as Hope keeps me too attached. For our own sanity we need to detach and let go fully. I am finding this more difficult as I move towards the date of returning to the UK.

I don't know your thread well enough to know why returning to the UK will make it harder to detach.

Will you have more contact with her? It is home for you?

Regardless, you MUST begin to GAL asap. What can you do this Month?

h. List a few hobbies or interests of yours, or classes you'd like to take or a sport you want to play or coach
or a charity you could volunteer for, or a political organization, and get in good physical shape.

If you are a man of faith, check out your local church or make an appointment with a minister or priest (they're FREE!!)

There are tremendous resources in our world now. Even someone off the coast of Alaska can get online or the phone.

Avail yourself of the resources asap.

And begin to heal yourself. Good luck, keep on keeping on.

((Sorry for the hijack Pyrite))

[Pyrite]

anytime 25, great for me to hear as well

[Pyrite]

First, I agree Mother's Day IS different

What's your wife's love language?

EXCEPT it's fine to say "thank you for bringing our children into the world and loving them" and that's it.

AND PLEASE Attach zero expectations from her.

Thanks for the ideas. I wouldn't be game to give her any sort of a book, let alone a R-"ish" book. I'm not even planning to sign the card, let alone make any nice comment.

The thing that will stick with me for the longest from the after math of BD was her insistence on me recognising that she didn't want to have a second child with me. She wanted a playmate for the first. Thats how much and for how long she has felt so little for me, even contempt.

She may very well have been angry. But this is a despicable thing to say and if true is unforgivable. Suffice as to say, I don't want to celebrate her bringing our kids into the world.

I will try not to have any expectations. But I am not as "tough" as I think I am when things are all going smoothly. I'll post separately re: todays events.

In your case, I assume there's no direct observation of your parenting. But rest assured that the children tell your wife when they've had a good time or when they miss you, etc. (But the converse is also true, i.e.' they'll tell her when they did not have a good time).

She's not a robot. Of course that hits her. She may repress it AND OR say "too little too late", or it may not be happening if the kids are seeing you cry or losing your temper and no, I'm not suggesting you are.

We have 50/50 custody. D4 and D2. D4 is Daddy's girl. The past few weeks have been rough because she has said things like "I never miss Mama, only Papa", and to W's face, "I dont like you". Not surprising. Since D2 was born she has spent almost all of her time with me. D2 is strangely attached to me. I am not sure how it happened really. She was breast feeding until Christmas time, and so primarily in Mums hands non-stop.

The week after we separated, W went away "on business". I was a wreck, but held it together for the girls, and we had fun. I just agonised all night long. Nowadays, you wouldn't even know there was anything wrong if you saw me with the girls. So NO, never sad or such. They are my greatest strength and inspiration.

My W, apart from wanting the time with OM, has never suggested anything else than 50/50 custody. I have always been Mr. Mom anyway, she just waltzes in and plays with the kids. I play with them too PLUS do all the cooking, cleaning, banking etc.

Since day 1 she has said to her friends, parents, mediators, etc. The girls are too attached to Py. I couldn't do that toTHEM.

I also GAL, big time, it helped me detach a lot.

It's mandatory to GAL in order to Detach.

I'd like to hear a lot more about what your GAL is like b/c without it, you won't be able to detach.

and Detachment helps your growth, keeps the focus on you, & helps you stay in your sandbox, and out of hers.

Make sense?

[color:#3333FF]
I'd venture to say that most of us faced similar questions. If you're being asked the same question repeatedly then your answer is obviously not sufficing.


My DB coach said that unless I was 100% certain that a divorce was coming and soon, (not a year in advance b/c that is way too long for a child to grasp and it looms over their heads too long as well)

you don't say it.

When my d's would ask if we were going to divorce, I'd say

"I sure hope not, b/c I have loved your dad a long time." Or something similar.

It's a positive true statement, yet not a denial of reality.

ALSO I made a point to reassure them if/when they pressed me on it b/c often their biggest fear is effectively losing a parent.

They need to know that even "if daddy and mommy don't live together anymore, we will share you b/c we both love you so much". They have to know they are Not losing a parent AND that the LBSer will be alright "alone".

IT's way too easy to over rely on our children's love to sustain us. Ends up burdening them at far too young an age. Pretty unfair really.

Excellent . This is basically what I say. I am paranoid that this is it though. Why D4 resents her mother. Because W is the one who doesn't want to go back. I don't know what she actually says to D4 but, from time I was present it was certainly not "I hope not".

So how is that ^^^ all going?

i'll have to get back to you on that. Big 180 on how i interact with EVERYONE. I am more patient, tolerant, actively listen and validate. It has made big difference I feel. I have made a much bigger effort to socialise at work. And outside of work. I am improving my R with parents and sister. Going over, coffee etc. as well. This is a big 180 with my father!

Working on me which is huge in itself. Seeing 1 IC, actively moving to another. Taking care of my medical "condition" for the first time in 20 years, not running away from it. 4 specialists in 3 months. actually 8, but others were 2nd opinions.

Meditating (nearly daily). Walk on the beach (nearly daily - near work). was swimming at the beach everyday until Easter (Southern Hemisphere). I used to hate beach, or avoid it at least - sand brrrggggghhh.

Stopped drinking. I was drinking a bottle of wine per day on average for the past 3 years.

Been seeing old friends. Sorta planning a trip interstate to visit old friend, but selling house so I might wait. Booked snow holiday for a few months time (with kids - first time). I stopped skiing b/c depressed about "condition".

building momentum for skiing buddy to buy yacht he has the money, and wants it anyway . organised sailing small craft withs friends H week after next when he get s back from trip. actually borrowing it periodically over next few months before buying(?).

weekend after this one with girls will go river kayaking, on my own, just for a n hour or so on calm river - at first. its been many years!

looking at re-locating with girls (1 hour away), checking out schools etc.

thats all i can think of right now. not bad - i was dreading ANSWERING B/C I DIDNT THINK THERE was anything (sorry caps lock)