Memento

[Zues126]

No, Maybell, I'm not. By and large starvation and deprivation of basic needs is not a day to day threat that any of us face. I would think you're kidding if you feel that we don't have things extremely well compared to 99% of the population or any other time period in history. This perspective has helped remain appreciative of how much we've been given and how manageable most of my problems are.

[MCS]

To bookend some of this conversation, some of the best advice I've gotten was from a pastor I talked to in reference to 'trying to stick to M' when WW obviously does not or does not want to.

He said "MCS, our time on earth is short and we shouldn't get hung up on the trials and tribulations of sitches and people in this life, but refer to the Bible on what will ensure us happiness in eternal life"

Well, that was a paraphrase, but you get the point. "Do what we know is right, even though the reward for it may never reach us while we are alive."

Also, I agree with you Zues. A day does not go by that I don't see little blessings and appreciate where I am and how fortunate I am, regardless of the sitch I'm in.

[Pyrite]

Very sorry to hear Zeus. I have had these moments of panic. One in the middle of the night. In my sleep I suddenly realised that pre-empting her next move, or what she was thinking was impossible, because nothing she was doing or saying was anything like the W I knew.

As you say yourself, you won't be left to starve. I dont know about the law there but situations change with the childrens age here. For school age kids 6/8 split per fortnight is the courts default position. Generally a case needs to be presented why this shouldn't be the case. This changes alimony/CS payments again. I have a friend on the other side of this now - her case is that her H is a self-harming deadbeat, and only doing this to reduce payments, not because he so desperatelty wants his kids. I believe her, but she is having a hard time PROVING it to the court. SO the system screws up in reverse too. The best way to deal with it, or the only way, as far as I can see is just avoid the system. Which is what I am desperately trying to do ATM.

My W doesn't plan so far ahead, but already I'm caving on re-location to preserve 50/50 custody of my kids. hopefully things will solidify before she realises that she can just flat out refuse, re-locate wherever she likes, screw 50/50 custody and petition for full custody. If this happens I am going to be clawing my way back and likely fail even then. Sorry ladies but (here at least) it is a FACT that the court favours the woman. Again, if she files for full custody, given kids are pre-school age, the court defaults to every 2nd weekend, and maybe weeknight visitation. The onus is on me to PROVE why there should be any amendment to this.

BUT, as I said earlier, a few years, school age kids, t things can swing back again. IF we can work something out between us and agree outside before getting into the court system, they dont care how unorthodox the arrangement might be. Basically the same on property issues.

You might even soon be rooting for her to live with OM so you are off the hook. Bonus for me is, knowing a little about the OM, her great new life is almost destined for failure beyond that. Although, back to alimony I guess if that happens. I like your idea of all swapping payments like obligatory birthday gifts.

[JellyB]

Hi Zues, I have been following you around the boards recently, being attracted to you sense of self and clarity about where you have been and where you are going. I read back on your sitch, and well your account of self and things you are overcoming, well it feels like you are me and my ex combined. I realise from your words that my ex and I were mirroring back to each other our soul issues. Our need for love between us but also self acceptance and self love

Your description of your focus and determination and drive, were that of my ex, and i was attracted to those very qualities, and I loved him and supported him and stood cheering him on from the sidelines while he became more and more successful. He lost his respect for me, and eventually his love of me because I don't have that same drive to be competitive. I have that same drive to love and support, not to be out there in front.

I am not expressing myself well. I guess I just wanted to say thank you for sharing what you do, I have gained so much insight into my own sitch.

Hugs Jellybaby

[Zues126]

MCS, thanks for the comments. I am a big believer in Karma, I have a theory on how it actually works that I'm pretty proud of. I made it up but it feels very, very true to me and is my compass. Maybe I'll share it when it's not past midnight with early morning appointments

Py, I like you have put my foot in my mouth a few times. But I agree that families in courts is a brutal process for all parties. That said, I am seeing it will work out. I got some stuff from my lawyer that lifted a big weight off my back. It was the parenting agreement that we are going to send to STBX's L. It's not signed off on, but it made me remember that I have rights and a voice too. It will work out.

Hi Jelly. Thanks for introducing yourself. I will admit I haven't read your posts yet but will after I get done talking about myself...so in the next few weeks OK, ok, after this reply. But I'm glad some of the lessons I've learned can help you on your way.

What you said about being supportive got me thinking...my W really wasn't. THIS IS NOT AN EX BASH- there's another point I'm trying to make. I grew frustrated because I expected her to be (again, to make up for my insecurity). I looked at women that cheered on their H, etc, and I wanted that so much. Shoot, I am a borderline celebrity in a few facets of my life and the rest of the world is applauding. I just wanted that from my W.

But there were two problems. One is she might not have felt like it based on the way I treated her. And second, it might just not be who she is.

I wonder how much it really matters. If I were looking for my next partner it would be easy to think "I want to find someone that's more supportive next time around". To an extent this makes sense, I'm learning what I want, and a woman that is supportive and admires/appreciates me (and expresses that affectionately) is at the center. HOWEVER- is that REALLY what I want, or is that just a reflection that I have more growth to do? Maybe that just shows I am not healthy enough to be ok without a cheering section. So is my goal to get to the point where I could be with a woman that doesn't do anything for me?

It's still a little confusing for me to figure out that balance between looking for a woman that's a match for my needs/wants, that I can in turn match hers...vs. being mature enough to find contentment with the reality of the imperfect creature I pair up with and appreciate the loyalty that's reciprocated despite my imperfections as well.

Now maybe it's me not expressing myself well. But thanks for following me and for the encouraging words!

[JellyB]

Sorry Zues, can't help you out on that one, both my exes who were competitive cyclists, loved the support but in the end they couldn't understand why I put all my energy into supporting them to make their dreams come true instead of my own. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

What a does mutually supportive and loving relationship look like and feel like in these circumstances when one person is ultra driven and the other happy to come for the ride?

The little I do know is I am attracted to men who are confident mentally tough and self determined and self disciplined. And with being attracted to these men there needs to be an understanding that the men who have these qualities have mastered to a certain degree an ability to banish/manage/suppress emotion in order to be successful and competitive, put the Y chromosome on top and well, there is a high degree of emotional unavailability and at times lack of empathy.

I feel that if I was more in control of my own emotions and had higher self esteem I may have managed this . Do exceptionally driven and competitive men view emotional availability as weakness. IMO they do. My overly emotional soul must scare the living daylight out of them or am I potentially viewed as weak. Hmmmmmm????

Also is my desire to fix myself and my emotions just another mechinism to care take for these men, who want and love support appreciate and adulation?

Am I creating/supporting their emotional unavailabity? Have I become their mother. Colour me confused!!!!!!

Sorry too much of my own stuff!

And I refer to my exes as "these men" not to be offensive rather to describe. No intention of male bashing here. I love men!!!!

[Zues126]

Mozza asked why I feel so strongly about never getting divorced, or staying in a committed relationship forever. I didn't want to hijack so I'll post my thoughts here.

First, I am totally with you on how hard it is to explain, and how often we deceive ourselves. I just watched a "Brain Games" on Netflix (with my kids who loved it, family time!). There was a show on how we made decisions, and they had some funny experiments. They asked guys which of two women they found more attractive (in this case a blonde and a brunette). Then when they guy picked, they showed the picture again a minute later and asked what they found so attractive. THE ONLY THING IS THEY SWITCHED PICTURES AND SHOWED THE GUYS THE ONE THEY DIDN'T PICK! Yet the men didn't notice and went on and on about why they picked that girl. Just shows we aren't as aware of why we do things as we'd like to think. There were other experiments along those lines, but back to the point. I accept that I have strong feelings and don't pretend to know for sure where they come from.

I will speculate. So, if you've followed my thread you'll know that for about 6 years 99.73% of my waking thoughts and energy were on becoming the best pool player in the world. Then, just before I turned 18, I kind of rebelled. One night I went and dropped some LSD with a few friends. I had no idea what I was doing. But it truly changed my life in that I had a true moment of clarity and decided I wasn't put on this planet strictly to shoot balls into pockets. I didn't know what it was about but there was something more going on here.

For the next two years I tried to get to the "center of the onion". I questioned everything. I dropped acid many, many times, at one point for over two months straight. I quit pool, moved to a city I was a stranger, went to college and dropped out, got evicted, and lost touch with everyone I knew. I didn't know what I was doing, but I was just frustrated with the limitations of our world in some way. I finally ended up couch surfing for a few months, then ran out of couches and spent a few nights at a homeless shelter. I was totally off the grid, broke, and didn't know what was going on. I finally checked myself into a rehab center and started rebuilding my life.

Sounds like a drug problem, but I've realized I was really just doing what a lot of people do. People that go hiking the Appalachian trail for six months, or that move into the woods for a few years and just become hermits. I was really searching for meaning, for answers, but finally realized being homeless and looking for ways to medicate wasn't it.

But if that wasn't the answer, what was? I was very distressed with what seems to be chaos in our modern society. I think about how carefully our traditions evolved over thousands of years around gender roles, spirituality, communities...then suddenly our technology allows us to become wealthy enough our culture decided that we don't need those traditions, and the hippies come along and start a revolution to tear it all down (much like my personal tearing it all down). The problem was they didn't build anything in it's place. Free love is great, until you realize that I have half brothers and sisters on both sides of my parents, my dad has three ex wives, my mom is divorced twice, and everything is just uprooted. Same way feminism and equality is great, not accepting abuse is great, but suddenly marriages are falling apart in record number and woman are walking out on men because their magazine article suggests that they shouldn't have to live "oppressed". It's like we decided we were too cool to do what works, and now it's not working, but we don't want to give up our "freedom" that allows us to make choices that make us miserable. Meanwhile the "backwards" primitive tribes in the Amazon have no depression because their members are following their traditions and getting exercise, sunlight, healthy food, spiritual dedication, and communal bonding.

So as I wrested with this and tried to rebuild my life I didn't know what to do. What was the meaning in all of this? I was raised Christian. I studied Buddhism. I meditated, journaled, and finally gave up. I don't have answers, but I couldn't wait to live my life until I figured it all out. I realized I couldn't.

So I did what I "thought" a normal person was supposed to do (I was still pretty tripped out, and maybe it's possible I never came down). I got a job. I got an apartment. I tried "imitating" normal people. Months turned into years. I started to believe I was who I was imitating. I started to feel almost normal.

FINALLY- when I got married. When I had kids. THIS was true. THIS was real. THIS was important. The rest of the stuff, the career aspirations, the pool conquest, the medication from the emptiness we deal with...that's human too, but I never knew if I was on the right track. But coupling with a female of our species, bringing life into the world, sharing those experiences and giving love to each other...even when I was lost about everything else I KNEW in my heart there was something profound there. Something that was at the center of who we are. If we aren't here to create life and celebrate that with our mate then I don't know what could have meaning.

Also, as I've said, I do believe that 10% is what happens to us, 90% is what we do with it. I always maintained (even when my M stunk) that my W was given to me by God, and that I wasn't to question it, I was to celebrate and appreciate the gift. And if I was frustrated, that was God's way of telling me I had some learning to do.

Sorry I was so long winded, but essentially I feel like if there's one reason we are here it is to continue the circle of life and celebrate that gift with our partners and children. And although I won't suggest society is lost if it loses sight of this model, for me personally I don't see the whole "you don't need your spouse" propaganda as spiritual progress. Society will be fine, it will evolve as always. And I will be fine, I'll accept the reality I'm living in and appreciate the gifts from God that I have. And I'm not threatened by anyone that has differing feelings. For me, however, I believe there's something profoundly important about the sacredness of M, something that can't be replaced by a procession of flings called 2nd, 3rd, or 4th marriages. I hope to find someone that values that commitment over their emotions or entitlement someday, but no matter what I'll know I walked my road the best I could, flaws and all.

Thanks Mozza.

[Mozza]

Well, thanks to you Zues126. I didn't know your background story. I also feel that my sitch has given me a new appreciation for institutions.

[Zues126]

I've enjoyed reading your posts as well. I have challenged myself with much of what you've written, and I admire how you're executing your plan even when it's out of your comfort zone.

[Zues126]

Update today on the legal front. I went to my L's office and we drew up a counter offer on the financial proposal AND a parenting plan agreement.

I'm really excited. So my youngest starts kindergarten in 17 months. Basically my proposal is to do 6/14 nights with the kids with the intention of becoming 50/50 by next summer. On the financial front the proposal would provide her enough to not have to go to work until the youngest was in kindergarten (so it would be VERY high for 18 months), but then it would drop down to a reasonable level for another 18 months, then a small amount for 18 months, and finally just the child support. This is designed to avoid daycare expenses which aren't good for anyone and give her time to get back on her feet, while not being a free ride forever.

Honestly the amount is still staggering. It would represent about 60% of my income for the next 18 months. And it still seems odd that she'll be staying home without a job living in huge 3 bedroom house, while I'll be working 55+ hours a week in a high paying job living in a 2 bedroom apartment with my 3 kids sharing a bedroom...but I do recognize that she is raising the children. I'm not upset about it. It's just mind blowing to me. That's ok. This is the world I live in, I'll sleep at night knowing I did my part.

What I'm pumped about is that I will be getting 50% custody. My L told me that in MN I would have to "be an axe murderer" for me not to get joint parenting. So that's really cool to know that I can't be pushed around there.

As for emotions...I'm doing good. Of course it is a huge loss. There would be SO many benefits to us working it out. But I understand that she's closed off to that at this time. Note- I say benefits, it's not about feelings for me. I don't have many for her at this time, and I can understand how she'd conclude we can't be M together because it's hard to visualize us as an effective couple. I just happen to believe that anything is possible, and feelings follow action. But I'm at the point where I'm like "hey, no skin off my back." I'll sleep at night knowing I did everything I could every step of the way, even when I didn't feel like it.

The biggest loss I feel is for my children. I'm sad that my 4 year old won't know what it's like to grow up with a "normal" childhood. I feel it was stolen from my kids and I couldn't defend them. But life isn't fair, and all I can do is show them how to lead on when it doesn't go the way you want.

So now I just need to kick butt at work. Seriously. From a financial standpoint I need to crush it so I can pay these bills. I make good money, the support I'll be paying is more than many people make. And it will be very, very hard. So I MUST kill it. And in a sales position that's stressful, particularly because I just started this role 6 months ago and am a year out from really knowing what I'm doing. So I'm working a TON. I'm already stressed about May goals and it's still a week from being May 1. But that's how much pressure is on me. Plus, it's such a big part of my life I need it to go well. And on top of that I will be committing more and more time to my kids. All while dealing with the D. And learning to pick up slack in the areas of my life that used to be W's turf. So VERY stressful.

But I got this. Honestly I am stressed but I will win. I'm a god damn animal. Roar! It's very possible that my income will double over the next couple of years, and maybe quadruple in the next 3-5. I have a good position and I'm just a juggernaut. So I will just have to do whatever it takes to become the top dog and make it rain money. It will take a lot out of me over the next 12-24 months...but if it's a game of determination, stamina, and desire...NO ONE will beat me.

OK, I'm calming myself down. Deep breathe. I guess I'm competitive

Just some thoughts about my pending D and what I need to do over the next little chapter of my life to get where I want to be: 50% custody and a great R with my kids, soaring at my job with an income so high the courts can't find a way to take it all away from me, maybe a bigger place in a year when my kids need their own space, a finalized D, and me relearning some habits so I'm effective on my own. Boom. Each day is a step on that road, and I'm not waiting until I get there to enjoy it.

Goodnight all!