WAS asked for divorce today.

[25yearsmlc]

I'm truly sorry you are in such pain. It just sukks.

But before you get all feisty and let your righteous anger steer you onto a path that won't yield you the results you say you want, look at your own insights...

and here is an ironic admonition, "remember to avoid amnesia" about your role in all this.

Otherwise, the terrible pain of this ordeal will not yield the single upside to all this, which is personal growth & self awareness.

Thank you each for all of all of the insight you have provided!

I am still quite new at all of this and it is overwhelming to try and respond adequately, especially with work not quite two hours from now and me wanting to respond fresh off of having read your responses.

First off, I politely declined the invitation from my coworker to go to a concert last night, and no bridges were burned. She made it clear that she wanted a date and that made me especially sure that I wanted to keep about my own business! I agree that I am in no way ready to spend any one on one time with any member of the opposite sex!

Good choice on your part. The separation is very recent. I'm NOT clear on the dates of all this b/c you don't list the date of the bomb.

But you do say herein, that troubles began a few years ago...yet the recency of the separation makes me think dating (on either party's part) is pretty wacky.

I have a lot, no, a TON to think about here.

W texted me the other day (before I posted all of my most recent postings) and asked me if I was dating. I said no. I asked her if she was and she said yes.


May I suggest you demure next time she asks if you are dating and NOT to ask her anything about her social life. There are plenty of good insightful "I care about you as a person" type of questions to ask, like about her work or school or family or friends.


I asked her who was the lucky guy and she declined to share.

Ouch...please don't ask her about it again b/c NO answer is a "good one" for you.


She proceeded to say I should be dating. I responded that I will do so when I am ready and the time is right.
--

I am seeing that perhaps I need to really adjust my thinking about all of this, which is exactly why I'm here. Having a divorce thrust upon me after all of the GREAT times we did have seems like something that requires an answer or response on my part, but I also see where doing so could do more harm than good in my relationship with her.

the legal response need not be mean or nasty at all. It's simply a reply. Silence is also a reply, and it's probably not the one you want to give.


I am angry about all of this. Sad and angry and somewhat bewildered. The saddest part is that she must have been hurting a whole lot to get to this point, and I think my "keeping score" contributed to that pain.

No need to hate yourself for it, but it's KEY that you recall this when you get cheered on by other angry folks in your life who want you to "get MAD!" b/c they were/are, which will NOT help you in any way towards any goal

and when you begin a new R with your wife (or OW) so that you don't find yourself here again.

Plus, Realizing that she was in deep pain (clearly true) which you either didn't see --- or saw - but glossed over, b/c "fixing it later" was just easier than dealing with it then and there,

will keep you aware and sensitive, without being a doormat. It always baffles me to see people really dig deep and "get it" about their shortcomings, only to throw it out the window when their ego gets too bruised.


As I said, the only upside to this whole nightmarish ordeal is growth and self improvement. That's not likely when we get angry and filled with self righteousness.


It is a terrible feeling to feel responsible for pushing your wife away one day at a time. The part that makes me angry is that I failed to see this coming until the bomb was dropped. I really thought I could "fix" this and that we were just going through a tough phase and that we would find our path and things would get back to the good, productive, happier times we both enjoyed.

Not to parse words too much, but what was it you believed needed "fixing", if the bomb was really the first time you realized she was unhappy? Can you recall?

IF so, how would you handle that differently, now?

I'm also angry because she seems to be holding up the divorce proudly like a banner to me as if I were so terrible and she is finally free,

If I'm hearing you, you're saying she's a lot more at peace with this than you. That makes sense. But if you are saying she is "proudly" holding it up, I'm unclear. To whom is she doing this and is it more b/c she must justify leaving a marriage that others thought was fine, or is it simply that you are hurt she isn't torn apart by a decision she has reached, (probably after a lot of time & thought)?

The LBSer is usually stunned (& more hurt) by the certainty some WAS's show in their choice. But to the WAS, it's not a "dilemma" and they are not torn, b/c they have given this a lot of thought that the LBSer did not know about.


aNew guy, it's not that she thinks it was all terrible. But why would she NOW think of all the good times?

Those good memories need to resurface and they will, when she has the time and space to reflect on good moments, when her choices are NOT being challengeed b/c the more you challenge her choices, the more she is forced to defend them...

But know this: there are songs and places and foods and fragrances and events and holidays and people that will remind her of YOU and the marriage and many will be good memories...and if not, if she was unhappy for more of the marriage than you realized,

than so be it. You cannot change that now.

All you can do is change who you are when you are around her. But if your perception of the past is accurate, then you want her to recall the good moments and to believe that there'd be more of those good moments and few or none of the bad times.

Make sense?


while I am just extremely sad over the whole situation and wish I could find a way to right all that I did wrong.

Yes, I was judgmental and I was always trying to "fix" things that weren't broken. I can be a perfectionist, and when something came up where I felt my experience would benefit her I made it known. She often came back at me with phrases like "You are talking to me like you're my father".


telling someone that your experience might benefit them...well, how does that sound to you, now?


I really wish the board rules here didn't prohibit an occasional cuss word because just thinking about what a tool I have been in all of this makes me want to cuss out loud!!

I can't imagine what it would have been like for her to live with a husband who acted in that manner toward his wife, good intentions or not. We had a lot of laughter and we shared a whole bunch of good times, but one night about three years into our marriage we got into an argument over something which we couldn't resolve at the time, and things have slowly but surely snowballed downhill from that point.

So, are you saying that you are less bewildered now?

It makes me sad to think she likely feels that she is not what I need, is not right for me, that she is somehow doing me a favor because I feel I spent too much time tending the weeds in our garden instead of tending the roses. That's perhaps the hardest part in all of this is knowing that by FAILING TO FOCUS ON ALL THE BLESSING THAT WAS OCCURRING ALL AROUND US, and focusing instead on the unimportant minor frustrations like the doing of the dishes and similar stuff, I really choked out the good in our marriage and I believe that is my part in all of this, or at least the core of it.

This^^ is a brutally sad realization, but it's a valuable one. Don't lose sight of it when you start to feel anger. It's too painful a lesson to throw away.

I want now to focus on recognizing these destructive behaviors for what they are and replacing them with better, much more productive and user-friendly behaviors.


This^^ is THE REAL GOAL of Dbing for you at this time. Make the most of it.

I have a long way to go, clearly.


Thank you each for your input, your insightful responses hit home with me and I feel like are the beginnings of answered prayers. I don't know how it is possible to go through life so blind to our own problems and yet see someone else's so clearly. My eyes need more opening.

I recall being here 8-10 years ago and wondering how in the world so many people (half of all marriages, after all) could walk around and not cry all the time. How'd they go to work and do their jobs? How'd they drive a car?

Heck, there were times i wondered how they got out of bed, b/c I sure didn't feel like it.

But we do get up, we do drive our cars and go to work and somehow, generally, we function and we make progress and keep one foot in front of the other.

And we grow. And we love again...and we laugh again, and so will you.


I intend to put all of my energy into me, none of it going out toward her right now, and any energy going out will be toward GAL and becoming the best man I can be! And fir the next nine hours or so, toward me job!

^^ Good idea

Thank you all for your insights and please don't let up. I am still asking for prayer for my wife, myself and my marriage that we would learn what God is trying to teach us and become what He is trying to make us.

Amen!

[Karma12]

You are getting some great advice from vets on your thread. Follow the DB principles. I was a young wayward once. She needs space to breath and learn what life without you feels like. Plus she most likely has an interest if not an affair. He wanting you to date is really to make her feel less guilty. Best you can do it to keep GAL. She will sense when you are moving on in your own life. She will find that single life is not fun for long. You want to be the safe place to land. Not the guy that has know life sitting around waiting.

[aNewGuy]

Wow this is a lot to absorb. The responses especially you 25Yearsmic and Karma12 - are truly answers to my prayers for wisdom.

Focusing on my work and home life right now.

Looks like if I want to hire an attorney of my own for this whole deal, I'm going to be in to it for at least a couple thousand dollars, of which I want to spend exactly zero.

My wife has told me that she won't go after me for any more assets than those she has already left here with, but the divorce takes 90 days and if I don't respond within 16 days from now, I am going to waive all right to respond any further. Ugh.

If only I could know that she means what she says and won't try to take anything that's not hers.

Thank you 25yearsmic again for taking the time to provide your insights. I hope to be able to answer some of your questions in a future post. Like my bomb drop date which was Feb 23, 15.

[pilot]

If only I could know that she means what she says and won't try to take anything that's not hers.

DO NOT TAKE HER WORD! She is suing you. Her lawyer is out to get the absolute best he can for his/her client. You give her any ground they will take it and try for more. That is why settlement negotiations always start with absurd requests on both sides. Each side shoots for their best case scenario. Please protect yourself. Yes it is expensive and no one here wants to spend money on an attorney when we all have many better things we would rather spend it on. But a little money now can save you a fortune in the future. She filed using an attorney. You MUST have your own attorney reply.

Understand this is not going to be a quick process unless you want it to be a quick process. Her lawyer, your future lawyer, the judge...they all have a million other things they are working on besides your divorce. It is a priority for her, a concern for you, but just another stack of papers on already crowded desks for them. Tell your attorney, whomever you hire, that you want to drag your feet on this. He/she will probably be more than happy to comply because it gives them time to work on their other cases.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

The guilt a WAS feels, IF ANY, almost always converts into resentment of the person "causing" the guilt. No spouse returns and stays in a marriage, because of shame. And it's certainly not likely to spur any romantic feelings.

The "cause" of the guilt is the infidelity. NOT the reaction to infidelity. A betrayed spouse could do absolutely nothing. Behave completely stoic and the wayward spouse would FEEL ashamed.

People that behave badly SHOULD feel ashamed.

My wife came back to me in shame. She still feels guilt to this day and overwhelmed by what she put me through and yet I remained. I didn't "shame her" back and I never held her betrayal over her head. But I did fight the affair and I did do a non-vindictive exposure to a small group of friends and family. Like Starsky I merely asked for prayerful support for her, myself and our children.

ANDDDDDDD ~ we are romantically in love with each other and recovered over a decade.

I know you said "almost always" but I know plenty of other exceptions to this rule in my real life besides just us.

Other instances where short term shame and guilt helps motivate struggling lost "wayward" type persons would be any kind of intervention for drugs and alcohol. Nobody would tell those families NOT to intervene because the target addict will most certainly come to resent them for trying to shame and guilt them into treatment.

Besides, IMO, IF a wayward spouse's shame converts into resentment against the spouse they completely devastated instead of bringing her to repentance they PROBABLY aren't worth reconciling with in the first place. Some people are just shameless.


Add ~ it is possible to have righteous anger AND reflect and grow. The posters wife just filed for divorce and you want him to reflect on his role in her banging another man

Add ~ good job aNewGuy not going on that date. You are married until you are not married. Just because your wife thinks spouses and vows are disposable doesn't mean you have to or should agree. Your vows included "in good times and bad, sickness and health". At least one parent needs to model to your children that they will stick to their commitment until such time as they are released from that commitment by a court of law. Adultery is adultery.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=25yearsmlc]
The guilt a WAS feels, IF ANY, almost always converts into resentment of the person "causing" the guilt. No spouse returns and stays in a marriage, because of shame. And it's certainly not likely to spur any romantic feelings.

The "cause" of the guilt is the infidelity. NOT the reaction to infidelity. A betrayed spouse could do absolutely nothing. Behave completely stoic and the wayward spouse would FEEL ashamed.

Georgia Bull Dog

Please note that I put the word "Cause" in quotes b/c I'm saying it from the perspective of the WAS, not you or the LBS. I guess I need to make that more clear...but if a woman has had an affair (which we do NOT know here)

Statistics show us that they tend to feel justified. Unlike some men (more of whom can have casual affairs) married women tend to have rationalized, rightly or wrongly, their behavior. They often describe themselves as feeling "forced" or "pushed into the arms" of OM By behaviors or neglect of their h


Only a stubborn fool would refuse to look at their own role in this perspective. That's not to "Blame" the h, it's to objectively own our part in our marital situations.


I commend NewGuy for digging deep b/c it's a brave thing to do and the real journey in life is an inward one.

I still believe condemning his wife does not serve any good purpose.

I also think it plays right into her narrative (and HIS OWN!) of him being critical and judgmental (and what's more judgmental than declaring that someone we have NO proof of having cheated, "Should be ashamed"?

No one is here to be "declared right" or "the TRUE victim".

Sometimes we have to choose whether we want to be "right", or happy.

People that behave badly SHOULD feel ashamed.


The focus in DBing is on doing what works. Shaming them or pronouncing that they "should feel ashamed" is not effective very often. Usually It backfires, which is what my original point was. And there's data supporting that in the DB books.

Besides, self righteous fury takes so much energy, energy that could be spent on our own growth.

Speaking from personal experience,

I wasted a year of my life being furious & justifying it - and becoming an angry bitter woman - not better -

AND asking questions that had no "good" answer. That's a year I'll never get back. And life is too short.

Why surrender to or champion the cause of anger? How that does help him?

And for the record, there is a real difference between remorse and shame.

If and when a woman cheats and IF and when she feels remorse for it, that's a crucial milestone. That is a cross roads.

if she feels shame, the data suggests she will NOT stay there wallowing in it for long (most people can't wallow in shame. For one thing, it's not healthy and so

They either make changes in their life and turn over a new leaf

AND OR they blame the person that they BELIEVE "caused" the guilt/shame.

Plus, there is usually an element of self righteousness in the LBSer who declares that their spouse "Should be ashamed". It's just not as likely to lead to reconciliation and that is still THIS MAN'S goal.

I'm not a believer that "only cheaters seek out divorce". There's such a thing as an unhappy marriage, without adultery.

And fantasizing about an unknown but kinder, more loving spouse is not adultery; it's wishing (praying) for more.

I think a lot of this is more complicated sometimes.

My wife came back to me in shame. She still feels guilt to this day and overwhelmed by what she put me through and yet I remained.

Well goodness, Does it sound to you as if she has recovered

or does she have some PTSD?

I'm being sincere. If she "still feels guilt"a decade later, it sounds as if she does not feel forgiven.

Can you discuss more of that aspect?

And before this gets awkward or tense, this is not a contest and there is no competition here.

FTR, I'm a DB follower. I don't come here and suggest other alternative methods to marital crises. (There are other sites for those approaches, and they're plenty fine!)

But DBing does Not stress or focus on shame or guilt.
In my sessions with my DB coach (a true Godsend)

I found A LOT of focus on [b]forgiveness and how to do it. I never saw forgiveness growing up - so I had to learn it.

Without forgiveness on both sides along the way, I cannot see long term marriages lasting happily.



I didn't "shame her" back and I never held her betrayal over her head. But I did fight the affair and I did do a non-vindictive exposure to a small group of friends and family. Like Starsky I merely asked for prayerful support for her, myself and our children. [/b]

Last I checked I could not find your thread, but perhaps you have posted it since. There's little data in your signature block so I can't really comment on your situation in an informed manner.

In any case, Asking for prayerful support is wonderful; it's one thing most of us do.

Exposing to 3rd parties is NOT encouraged here; it's opposed.

Not to sound insulting, but I've read a lot of your posts & you tend to presume affairs before evidence of them appears, and you suggest the same "Exposure" theme

so I wonder whether you have read the book(s). No offense.

However, DB's author MWD opposes exposure -and There are lots of reasons for that which she gives and which I could add to.

Yet I believe that none of those reasons are going to persuade you, or you'd already be persuaded. And I see no point debating that here.

What worked for ME is what I learned and followed in the DB teachings. So that's what I post about here.

And since Newguy is not asking for us to comment on the subject of exposure, (and since what his wife is presently doing now (dating) will NOT be seen as "cheating" by most people "out there" b/c she has filed for divorce ---

I'm not sure how productive or relevant this piece of the story is. Again, it's about the DB approach and doing what works. Not doing 'anything that works" - but DB's methods...

As for Starsky, shoot, he and I have gone around and around about this. But Starskys' case has lots of dimensions to it, and among them is his own personal growth.

Anyway, for sure Starsky doesn't need me to speak for him.

ANDDDDDDD ~ we are romantically in love with each other and recovered over a decade.

I know you said "almost always" but I know plenty of other exceptions to this rule in my real life besides just us.

Other instances where short term shame and guilt helps motivate struggling lost "wayward" type persons would be any kind of intervention for drugs and alcohol. Nobody would tell those families NOT to intervene because the target addict will most certainly come to resent them for trying to shame and guilt them into treatment.


As a person in recovery now for 17 years, let me say I utterly & totally disagree with this^^ analysis.

It's shame that kept my secret hidden and shame/guilt that prevented me from seeking help much sooner.

it was love, HOPE and compassion that spurred me to believe I could get better and that motivated me to seek help.

I cannot stress this^^ enough.

.
-

Add ~ it is possible to have righteous anger AND reflect and grow. The posters wife just filed for divorce and you want him to reflect on his role in her banging another man

How can you read what I wrote and THEN put that twisted spin on it? That's not at all an accurate summary of my words.

Period.

I see that this is pointless now.

[Bob723]

Hello aNewGuy,

I've been reading thru your thread, and don't have any big advice to offer right now (it's 11:00 PM and I'm tired) but I do agree with you that the advice your were given is "a lot to absorb."

One thing that comes to mind is to please do your best to find time to absorb the advice from karma12 and 25yearsmic. "25" has helped me very much, as have many others on this wonderful forum.

I posted this bible verse in several threads and people have seemed to really love it:

‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ declares the LORD, ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future’” (Jeremiah 29:11).

It helps me feel hopeful.

Don't forget to take care of yourself.

Bob

[aNewGuy]

I keep re-readng all of this each day, and taking a little bit more with me on the way each time.

Reconciliation IS my goal, and I don't ACTUALLY KNOW if she is / was having an actual affair, though most would look at my situation and think that an EA has been occurring for some time. I trusted implicitly that divorce was not something she would ever consider, and I also trusted her that she would not ever leave me for another. So I was stuck in a rut of thinking she was the one who needed to make changes. Today, I realize that I am the one who needed changing. I realize this while not denying that she also played a role in all of this, some *might* say her role was more critical than mine while others *might not*. I can only hope that God is working on her right now just like He's working on me. He is certainly capable of fixing even this situation.

Still not sure about the divorce and how I am going to proceed so far as responding to the case goes, but I still have a few days to figure that out.

My wife seems to be sending me more positive things in text. She asked when she could come over to go through things, which is the first time she has taken any responsibility for that. Obviously I am going to let her have anything that's hers!

I gave her a date when I will be available, she responded, and I asked her how her father is doing (he recently had surgery). She told me he is recovering and doing OK and I told her I am glad to hear it and she responded "Me too!!" and I left it at that.

More prayer and more time is needed. Thank you for your response Bob723, I want to convey how much it means to see someone else who aligns with 25yearsmic and Karma12, like I do, on the things I have presented.

[25yearsmlc]

Hey Newguy

God does do amazing things. Not always what or when we want, but at a minimum, he gives us the strength to face whatever may come.

As for the legal aspects of this, there's no advantage to ignoring the filing. At the very least ask your attorney (whom I hope you have hired) what a non response would mean. I don't know your state but I'm a lawyer myself (but a nice person!) and sometimes the non response does amount to concessions you would not want to make.

(Sometimes it's less meaningful so do check)

Mainly I want you to consider 2 things, from a LEGAL/Marital perspective...

1) protecting your Financial/Legal interests is NOT "escalation" (unless you choose to seek property that no reasonable person would, which I'm sure you won't).

It's just business and you need to look at it that way. Divorces DO costs money and it's not "mean" to allow that reality to occur; it's not as if you are shoving it in her face or punishing her.

Indeed, if you do too much of this "no response", you might be enabling her to avoid actual costs that she'll probably face later on anyhow. Make sense?

2) I strongly suggest you keep ANY & ALL discussions of legal matters and financial matters to the lawyers. That is what you pay them for AND it's a way to separate the dirty pieces of this, the parts that can lead to emotional escalation and bitterness between you two, from the way you interact with her, emotionally.

So you can GAL and Detach and move forward while treating her the way you wish you had before (without pursuing and yes that is possible)

and without mixing it up with the painful ugly parts of this. Let the lawyers do their jobs. Refer her to your lawyer if she begins to seek more than you believe is reasonable and or if she gets upset.

Referring her to your lawyer (or having hers call yours, etc) will also reduce the chance of a blow out with her.

When my h realized that a divorce would cost what it would cost, he got angry and he seemed to think that telling me he was "going to see a lawyer" would upset me.

It was just the opposite. I wanted him to hear a lawyer tell him some reality. (I told him to "Please see a lawyer asap so you don't have to take my word for it")

For me, seeing a lawyer was incredibly calming as I confirmed my hopes, not my fears, about how I would not be "on the streets with the kids"...

DO see a lawyer as soon as possible. You need not "do" anything but pay a lawyer for some time, but do get information. Truly knowledge is power.

How is your GAL? I don't think you can detach without GAL and truly it makes you obsess less and you will become a happier person

and that is attracting, as is a man with interests and hobbies and passions, it helps you bring a lot to the table.

Keep posting and keep on keeping on!

[aNewGuy]

It is so hard to treat her the way I should have been before, when she has filed for divorce! I am just not being very available to her right now. Not that she is really reaching out to me...

She had left a purse here. An old one with a broken clasp. It has been sitting on my dresser for some time. That along with other random odds and ends - some earrings, some makeup and some other things that a lady would enjoy but for some reason she left behind.

So today I filled the purse with a bunch of these items and strutted in to work with this very obviously women's purse over my shoulder like I owned it, walked up to her and handed it over. She thanked me very much for it and told me to text her to remind her to put some of my clothes (which she inadvertently took when she moved) into her car to bring to me tomorrow.

I haven't written her that text yet. I'm not ready to be texting back and forth with her when I am still reeling over all of this and trying to get my own life in order. She moved out and had me served with divorce papers at work and since this has left me feeling sad and pretty desperate and needy compared to my normal self, I really don't feel safe in engaging her in much conversation unless it is something that just happens naturally in passing or it is something which must be discussed.

Obviously I could change my thoughts on that, but I really want to be focused on taking care of me right now and it is tough - I don't want to hire a lawyer but feel your advice is right and will be doing so by this time next week.

So far as GAL activities are concerned:

1. I have gotten a "gym membership". Why the quotes? Because it's not really a gym membership. Gym membership is what I am calling my second job, which is working part time in a local big box home improvement store. I had applied at this place last December for a supervisory role. I had interviewed well for the job but in the end an internal candidate got the job. So when the hiring manager saw me in the aisles the week after my separation he asked me if I would be interested in part time work in their garden center. I told him yes - not because I need the money, but because I need the new scenery. It has been a good decision - I get to work independently, have already received a $250 bonus along with an award for some of my work there, and am getting a far better workout on most days than I would ever get in a gym because motivation does not exist for me personally in a gym.

2. I am taking care of my yard better these days.

3. Because I am taking better care of my house, I am able to entertain friends over here more often. I host bonfires in the backyard by night, and by day I have my buddies over for target practice.

4. There is still something missing. I guess I don't fit in to any easy category. It feels like GAL for me is plagued with too many options so none of the options ever get my time during the more routine times in life. I enjoy singing and climbing and photography and shooting and swimming and watching Netflix and airplane rides and hiking and yard work (some of it!) and entertaining and cooking and fixing things. I swear I either enjoy or have enjoyed all of these things in the last year, but on a day to day basis none of them seem to rise to the top to be that one reliable part of a good healthy GAL routine for me.

I want to renew my request for prayers for myself, my wife and my marriage. I would say that we have indeed made some progress in that we are having more positive interactions these days than we are negative ones, but there are still relatively few interactions.

I also want to add that it looks and feels to me like God is at work here. I had to report to jury duty here this morning. An old flame was there too. The chances of that occurring are pretty poor in this county. During the lunch break, we were both able to settle a couple of things that had been left hanging when we split up years ago. It also made me love and miss my wife that much more! Prayers needed. I have a lot more to learn and a lot more growing to do. Nowhere near out of the woods here, my bride is still not home!