Trying to Follow DB & DR (2)

[Miman2]

Thanks rd500. I'm trying to listen and learn the best I can.
That's why I'm writing and asking questions.
I would like to learn what not to do and how to go about thinking about and not doing what I shouldn't be doing...

MrBond...

Wow.... just wow.

First of all:
I'm not even going to waste the time to try to explain to you how you missed the whole point of the one thing that stood out to you. -.-

Second of all: I have admitted I have control problems.

So let's talk about control.
(If that's okay with you, I don't want to control what gets discussed)

Admitting to it and, yes, having people continue to point it out raises questions about control.

Mostly about how to not have control issues.

Can someone control their control or is that too controlling?

"Yet you want to CONTROL the way people talk to you. "

Wow, I didn't know I had that much power over you.
Although this is an assumption on your part again.
You'd have to be pretty obtuse to think I have any delusions of control over anyone here.
I know, I know... you're saying I WANT control.
But that would just be silly. No one can control anyone over the internet.
I may be controlling, but I'm not THAT dumb.
(As a side note, you know just incaseys, anyone can feel free to PM me and I'll send you a routing number you can deposit your paychecks to from now on, FREE of charge.)

If a post on my "OPINION" on how to communicate with others makes you feel like I'm trying to control people then where does that logic stop?

By that logic anyone dispersing information on how to behave in a certain way is controlling.

All these authors of these self-help books are controlling!
They're telling people how they should interact with other people.

That probably got the biggest eye-roll humanly possible.
You're probably thinking:
"You don't seem to understand what everyone is telling you."

And to that I say:

That has my point this entire time!
I know when I've been controlling.
But how do I know when I'm not being controlling?

Is control merely like what Justice Potter Stewart said when he was trying to decide if a certain movie was to be considered obscenity?

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

Or is there a definite delineating line that makes the difference between being controlling and not controlling"

The closest I've gotten to a hint of a whiff of a thought of an answer has finally been brought to the light of day.

Let me try to rationally think through this before I reveal that hint whiff.
(I've put it in a spoiler tag so you can't peek right away.)

Let's assume for a moment that we can define control purely and simply as consciously or unconsciously making a decision for someone.

We'll ignore enforcement of the decision for now, we'll just assume the decision is final. This assumption implies some power/influence over that person. Without which really makes control kind of impossible but we'll ignore that too. (You know, just in case you still want that routing number.)

Choosing someone's school, lunch/dinner, friends, work, home, items they own, items they don't own, keeping someone's items, throwing someone's items out, any decision made for someone is control and control is bad m'kay.

But what about that Christmas present that you got for your husband/wife.
You know that one they absolutely loved and uses/wears everyday.

The previous statement said that choosing "items they own" is controlling.
But in this instance it doesn't sound like this is control at all.

What about making those decisions for yourself?
Yes, I know there's such a thing as self-control.
But I'm talking about making decisions similar to those listed above just like you would for someone else.
Is that still control or something different?

All of a sudden the definition of control starts to get a little hazy.

So what if the definition of "control" is something closer to the definition of "lying"?

You can google "plato stanford lying-definition" and their Encyclopedia of Philosophy has an excellent run down of the conditions something must meet to be considered a lie. Basically for a something to be considered a lie it must:
1) Be a statement
2) The statement must be untruthful.
3) The statement must be made to another person.
4) The statement must be made with the intention that the other person believes it to be true.

So going back to trying to define control.
Control is:
1) A decision.
2) A decision made for someone else.
3) The decision maker exhibits power/influence over the other person,
4) Because #4 the decision removes autonomy/free-will/choice from that someone else.
5) The decision was made with the intent to remove the autonomy/free-will/choices of another person.

#5 borrows from the definition of a lie AND my hint whiff
After all MrBond, as you said...

"She could have taken them if she wanted to. No big deal. No expectations. No control."

The underlined part has #5 written all over it.
While it's easy to accuse someone of being controlling, without that person truly understanding what control is they will never understand why your comment about your W wasn't controlling.

You do understand though, because you have an idea of what it means to be controlling.

Someone can easily be accused of being controlling.
When they are and they don't understand why they're being accused or how they could've prevented being in that (or any) situation where they're being controlling they can get defensive. When they get defensive one response may be to try and explain their situation.

Just like you did by responding to that part that stood out to you.

You responded to my accusations of you being controlling.
Just like I thought you would.
But I don't meet control criteria #3 & #4.
#5 is a bit of a stretch, I can't say for 100% the intent was there.
So does that mean I didn't control you?

You might answer with something like well "you want(ed) to CONTROL" me.

To that I say:
Maybe, but no more than asking a question is controlling someone to answer.
Which again begs the question, is that control?
I got a bit more of what I needed out of it and as far as I can tell you're not worse off because of it.
I do owe you an apology though, because technically I did lie to you.

I said the first point was I wasn't going to explain the point you missed and
"if you would bother to really try to understand" that's exactly what I tried to do.
For the sake of learning and actually saving my M.

[Cadet]

Please start a new thread

[rd500]

Milman , wow , I am going to abit into my sitch to try to give you perspective, my W called me controlling ( when she left, not now). Her examples of this were

1. She jogged on our local country roads, that have no footpaths and I asked her to jog around our two acre garden instead for safety. She didn't by the way.

2' W would go for a walk just a it was getting dark , I asked her to go 1/2 hour earlier so she would be finishing her walk before twilight. She didn't by the wa

3. W would go out for the evening and I would ask her what time she would be home and if she would not be home then could she text me and let me know. W did do this

These are a few example of where I thought I was being caring and thoughtful

W thought I was being controlling

Who was right ?

IT DOESNT MATTER! !!!!

W perceived it as controlling and that's all that mattered I should have said it once , voicing my opinion and concerns and left it at that. W is a big girl
And able to make her own choices.

You just spent a long post trying to explain your actions and how you are right, it doesn't matter, if your right , it comes across as controlling and if your wrong it comes across and controlling.

I post a lot on here , just support because i have not being able to restore my M

Please take this as its Iintended , you come across as controlling and that's what you have to work on.

Anyone who posts on your sitch is routing for you Mr bond is abrasive sometimes but his advice is sound

Take care mate Rd

[Zelda09]

Miman -

To answer your question above. I believe control issues manifest in more subtle ways. When you are not controlling, you are not trying to control someone's understanding...whether their understanding of you, or a situation. Relentlessly driving home a point is attempting this kind of control.

- trying to control whether someone(s) see you as righteous, correct, your points superior, your logic more sound. I am guilty of this. There was a recommendation to me to check out Rosenberg's giraffe and jackal speech. I came here with jackal mindset and it is any time we are violent in our communication - over insistent and aggressive. No one wins with this. Even if Mr Bond comes back to you and says, oh ok, I can see that...there has been antagonism which ruptures relationships.

Did you engage with your W this way? Imagine that she might have been exhausted, felt stupid, as though you were trying to make her feel inferior...that post is full of sarcasm and put downs. Very demeaning.

You can be right, or you can be happily married. What if you were to apply this principle to all your relationships? You cN be right, or kind. Asserting yourself doesn't have to sacrifice kindness.

[Mozza]

I second Zelda09, especially the part about wondering if this is how you argued with your W (or anyone else). Even if you think that MrBond was unpleasant or provocative, it does not justify responding in kind or worse. Let him be himself and be the best Miman2 you can be. Try to find a way to learn from the exchange and take it forward. Pick your battles, show curiosity and openness, vulnerability even.

Cadet suggested you start a new thread, it would be a good opportunity to make that change.

[MrBond]

"Second of all: I have admitted I have control problems. "

Admitting and doing something about it are two different things. We are suggesting you do the latter.

Like the others, I'm beginning to wonder if this is how you talked down to your W. You said you talked her into swinging and that she said there were things you asked her to do that she felt uncomfortable to do, but she did it anyway.

I can now see that maybe you debated her to death about why she should do the thing that you wanted her to do. Just my opinion.

Start a new thread and maybe start with a beginner's mind as suggested in DB. That helps.

[Miman2]

Part 3!