Forgiveness is absolutely for you. It is separate from the hurt this caused. I get the thought of wanting to just carry on your way sometimes. The thing is that if you don’t get to the root of those things...they come with you.
And yea, you dont want to use this over her. That doesnt help anyone. I know it sure felt like it, but, what she did didnt have to do with you.
For me, forgiveness was an act of strength. It was an acceptance of what is and the letting go of expecting something different.
It isnt about denying the hurt or justifying the wrong, but, about forgiving the person.
I realized that people do the best they can with what they know, with where they are and with what they’ve got. It isn’t my place to judge, nor my place to condemn and I can only be in control of my actions.
It means that you fill yourself with love and you radiate that love outward and refuse to hang onto the bad feelings that were felt by the behaviors that caused the wounds.
The moment you tell yourself: I had enough, this pain no longer serves me, that will be the moment that you feel forgiveness is power.
Luke, be careful not to confuse what you want to hear from her with what you need to do for yourself.
Please know that uR and I are not trying to bombard you with info just for "push's" sake...but to cheer you along your path and make comments that make you look at yourself thus examining your own motives. Growth is what we're aiming here and please take it for what it truly is here.
Here is a section that got me thinking:
Originally Posted By: Caliguy
I do know letting go of this needs to be a goal and it is regardless of the M, but I am not to that point just yet ... I am slowly getting there, and like I told her Friday night I MUST arrive to a place I let it go because I do not want to use this over her, we both have been through enough and from what I have seen in between her emotional ups there is a good deal of guilt there I am just not sure of her motives for wanting the M at this point ... I have not been given what I feel are correct answers there.
"Correct" answers by whose standards?
What are the supposedly "correct" answers?
What does "correct answers" supposed to look like?
How does one qualify "correct" answers?
Will you ever be satisfied with not so "correct" answers even if it is how W honestly feels during those moments?
Remember that W is processing her own thoughts, emotions, and recollections too.
The danger that I see here is that you're changing the goalposts each time you are not satisfied with not "correct" answers from your W or you're just not "feeling" it at all.
It is dangerous because there is a sense of an invisible yardstick at play here and it isn't fair to W at all because there is no clear communication of what requirements are supposed to be in place as a way of "measuring" SOMETHING that W is supposed to do.
Whose timetable is this on? Yours? Mrs. Cali?
Is it fair or equitable from an objective standpoint?
You are right uR... It's not like I'm sitting her hoping I never forgive, I'm close to it I think but it's going to take time .... I read this a few days ago:
Forgiveness Means Giving Up All Hope for a Better Past
It's spot on and made sense... I can not have a better past and at this point in the game living there serves me no good... I've accepted what's happened has happened, will I ever forget... Most likely not... But this journey has taught me a few of the whys... W must own her share and deal with the fall out just as I have... I haven't walked her walk nor would I wish that on anyone ... I have to remind myself to keep my eyes forward and not hold onto the past, if one holds on to that then they will never grasp the good to come... One day at a time
Thanks uR for pushing ... Always easier to look in the mirror than it is to try and figure out the fog
Please know that uR and I are not trying to bombard you with info just for "push's" sake...but to cheer you along your path and make comments that make you look at yourself thus examining your own motives. Growth is what we're aiming here and please take it for what it truly is here.
Wonka thank you, and no I do not feel bombarded... I know I still have more to work on and most likely always will. I really appreciate all the outside perspectives knowing I am in the middle of the forest its often difficult to see that I keep walking in circles as I try to find my way out.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
"Correct" answers by whose standards?
What are the supposedly "correct" answers?
What does "correct answers" supposed to look like?
How does one qualify "correct" answers?
Will you ever be satisfied with not so "correct" answers even if it is how W honestly feels during those moments?
"Correct answers" I read this last night after I made my post to uR, and yeah you are right ... its the same as "my terms" in a way controlling. I guess what I meant and how I feel is that I am not ready to jump back into this marriage with someone who could possibly still be involved with an OM, I feel pressured into doing so by W on the grounds that her A did not live up to the fantasy she thought it would so I feel like option #2 .... its how I feel, is it right, is it fair, is it how it really is .. maybe not (I doubt she would admit it right now) .. but its what I have to deal with. I see your point on the "correct Answers" and suddenly realize one of the first valuable lessons I learned her .. believe nothing of what they say and 50% of what they do ... her actions as of late have been much more promising, and just because she is not saying the magic words should not make me try to get her to do things MY way. I see that now. Thank you.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Remember that W is processing her own thoughts, emotions, and recollections too.
The danger that I see here is that you're changing the goalposts each time you are not satisfied with not "correct" answers from your W or you're just not "feeling" it at all.
It is dangerous because there is a sense of an invisible yardstick at play here and it isn't fair to W at all because there is no clear communication of what requirements are supposed to be in place as a way of "measuring" SOMETHING that W is supposed to do.
Whose timetable is this on? Yours? Mrs. Cali?
Is it fair or equitable from an objective standpoint?
What do you think?
I do feel she is sorting out her own emotions, Looking at this from a different viewpoint, W is dealing with a lot of things .... she really is going through a ton of digestion right now, add in the MLC stuff ... I could not imagine.
As far as time table .. yeah seems to be mine .. she is pushing for MC and I am resisting ... why? Well I feel she has a ton going on at the moment but seems she wants to have the comfort that MC is in place, like she wants to fix the M and I guess I am just not believing it just yet.
Do I want MC ... yes. I just feel so much pressure concerning it, like if it does not work out we are done for good .... then again we were at that point some time ago. I do feel without it we are not going to break the cycle we seem to be in at the moment. Maybe just setting up the appt will take some pressure off her .... she told me she needs that to be in place in her brain for some reason, I do not understand it but after our talk last night I guess its like a safety net for her before she will put herself out on the tightrope ... and maybe I need to take a step in that direction too.
So Monday night W chatted with OMW, something she said she needed to do. She TM at 11 at night (I was asleep) that it was an interesting few hours left it at that. Next morning pretty short .. said she didn't want to talk about it. All day .. again .. dim I was busy working, even tinkered on the Harley and am so close to putting it back together .. been almost 3 months since the wreck.
As I left work W called, she was leaving early to go to the Chiro, I was PMA, as was she ... she asked me over for dinner. I was pretty shocked actually as she seemed off all day ... the kind of off that was like she was with OM ... again MY issue to get over. So I asked if I could bring anything she suggested some chicken from the local store ... I arrive a bit late with S but we had a nice dinner.
We had S go take a shower and we talked. She opened up and shared some about the call. I did not ask but she was open telling me alot, holding back here and there, information I would assume she felt was to private or might hurt me. Overall .. OM is a chronic cheater, along with that he is a very skilled liar. OMW and W had some time tables and names of other women he was with ... appears dude was busy. I was calm, STFU, listened and never once got upset or even bothered ... nothing shocked me from what she shared.... I did find myself as she was talking asking "Why is she telling me all this?" I am still not sure. However one thing stuck out ... and I did tell W, I hope you can move on from this, she said she could but it would take time and I suggested this is why I feel MC is not good right now, she got a little snippy and said things are "always on my terms".... Wonkas post making me think ... this may be an issue I need to address, even if I feel I am right.
So I left not long after, thanked her for the talk, thanked her for being open and honest and told her I knew it is not easy for her. She voiced how she did not want me to use it against her and if I did she would clam up and not share, I told her nothing that she said really shocked me nor did I come away with any upset feelings, I was honest. (If anything it just validated my suspicions about OM and the type of person he is... honestly W could have done much better) I told her that not having a secret life nor something that we are hiding will start creating a path to resolving things, she said she had none of that, just reaffirmed her friend 'K' who I know about ... (I thought possible OM3 at one point) I told her if there was something more there I would have figured she could have easily gone that direction, she assured me there is not, he has been there for her and she sees him as a brother .... personally I am not threatened there, I do not want this sitch to create me into Capt'n Jealous. She then joked if I had any secrets or dating apps on my phone ... I shared I did some time back, even went on a date back in Nov but realized it wasnt for me .. she gave me a good ribbing about it in a fun way ... asked who, what she looked like, if she was cute, chubby, if we kissed ... all in a playful way ... I asked is she was jealous and she said no, just shocked her ... smiled and hugged me as I left.
So thats where things are now, I am really still giving the MC some thought ... not sure about it but I do feel it would give W some comfort that I am open to fixing this with us, maybe thats the reassurance she needs knowing there is a good deal of damage there.
Luke, I want to be clear on how I feel about some things in your sitch.
I want you to work towards forgiveness for you.
I do see some inconsistencies when dealing with your w. On the one hand, you say you dont want to hear about the OM. On the other hand, you tell her that she cant have any secrets if this is going to work.
So, you may want to think about that some.
I am a little concerned about your son. Trust me when I tell you he sees that things are changing between you and his mom and is probably confused. Might want to keep an eye on what he may be feeling.
Also, MLCers often like to hear that we have dated. In their mind, it takes some of the guilt away even though its way different.
Oh and I find this interesting when you wrote about MC:
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
like if it does not work out we are done for good
I know there is some fear about going into MC. Fear that it is really over. Fear of what you may hear. Fear that she may not really try. I get it.
The thing about it is...that we shouldnt make decisions from a place of fear, but, rather from a place of strength.
I am in no way telling you that you need to do MC now. That is your choice and I think if you are hesitant about it, follow your gut. It wont work otherwise. Just be sure that your reasons are valid for you, ya know?
Luke, this stuff succks. All of it. The beginning, the middle, the end.
You have grown a great deal. We all have more to work on.
Continue to walk it with the dignity and courage you have been.
Nothing has to be decided today.
You have a right to your feelings. Do what is best for you.
When making decisions, dont do it from the hurt little boy's view. I know that the affair speaks to him. I know that hurt very well.
What I learned is that what my xh chose to do is on him. While it felt personal to me, it was really about how he felt about himself. That is why they most always affair down.
Your w doesnt get a free pass on her actions. She has to own them. What you dont want to do is take the responsibility on that she does. Thats not your job.
That forgiveness thing ... I have been all over that for a few weeks. I want to forgive her I do, and maybe I have but not fully ... I do not know. Its not like I want to punish her, and I realize there is nothing she can do to take it away. The past is the past and I really do not want to live there.
The no secrets thing .. that's 'current in the now' type stuff. I think the fact she has told me its over between them and it just was'nt ... that's what has me gun shy here. Her cycle seemed to be .. on and off with him during the course of the A for whatever reason .. as soon as it was off she ran to me, only for that rush to hit and back to him without telling me, I would only know by her actions leaving me feeling foolish .. more than once. So to clarify ... I honestly have no desire to know the in-particulars between them ... had nothing to do with me, and at this point would only pull the scab off.
Like usual ... posts like yours and others .. brilliant ... and I read it a few times yesterday. You may find me crazy but I am starting to become convinced God sent you ... along with this forum to help me.
I was thinking about your comment about S, deep down I have been thinking the same thing. I have been pretty careful about what I do and do not say concerning W during this whole thing ... she mad some mistakes (as we all do) .. but S witnessed OM over several times and figured out he was not just a 'friend' as W put it .. that was sealed when OM planted a kiss on her in front of him. Now there is nothing I can do about that, but that did start some things with S, she broke some trust there. I think during this whole thing S felt he needed to protect me, I just feel that's what kids do when they see a MLC'r but do not understand the whats and whys ... heck us LBSs hardly have a handle on it. Anyways on the way to practice I talked to S about the changes with W and I. And yeah he feels I am different with her, I explained to him why as best as I could and I opened up and shared with him that the R between he and I was extremely important to me and I never wanted to lose that, if anything I wanted it to grow. He opened up and shared his reservations with W, how she treats him vs how I do .... kid had a few points and I told him its something we will all have to work on together (not saying we will be back together because who knows .. but regardless of where he stays). Ended the talk with a hug, and told him again how much I love him and how thankful I was to have become so close to him where we can share difficult things and talk them out. After that .. new kid .. all happy and bouncing around .. guess lil dude had an elephant of his own that needed to be talked about.
Back to me ... After the talk with S, and thinking about it, plus a few of the 'look inward' posts I have realized a couple things. I became a bit disoriented with the seemingly sudden shift with W. So much so I was more focused on the new eruption of past feelings (the pain, hurt, betrayal) that I lost sight of Cali 2.0 for a bit. I was different around her because I was guarded ... thats now who I am ... regardless of what happens I have done to much work to relapse and be the hurt little boy. I need to shine regardless.
Spoke to W briefly this morning... she was down a bit due to a flare up (STD) and made a comment about how OM got away with it. I told her it all comes around, explained how we both must stop living in the past and look ahead to a promising future and what focus on what is good ... vs the bad. I wanted to point out that she chose that life and is not a complete innocent victim but I know where those words and thoughts come from .. not 2.0 type thoughts so I tossed em out. She hugged me and I wished her a good day ... she TM asking me to update her on my Dr appt.
