Get married they said .. It'll be fun they said

[CaliGuy]

Yeah, Ur, I know what you're saying. I really do.

I am going to say that I feel that forgiveness was for me. I have no idea if my xh knows I have, although I think he may.

I differentiate between forgiveness of the past and letting it go. I don't believe you can truly forgive until you're asked to do so. Seems a nit to differentiate those. I let go for me. Oh believe me, I had to else it would have killed me. I just don't carry anger well.
But forgiveness looks different to me. And it's something I was asked specifically not to give.

Release. Yes. Forgive, can't be done in my opinion. One is for me and me alone and the other is for her.

Maybe semantics, or maybe I am missing something.

Cali, for your son? He's *supposed* to test his parents. At least, that's how it's been done for generations upon generations. He's not likely to do it differently.
A young man who is angry? Sure. A young man who can smell guilt and can take advantage of it to "punish" his mom? Say it ain't so. A young man who is scared and misses his mom and is hurt and will take "control"?

A therapist might be helpful for him, but choose carefully. They are not all the same. And your W is the one that needs it to regain her confidence etc. Or gain it as the case may be. He'll assert his dominance until he finishes collecting his pound of flesh and until he's satisfied she's his "mom" and has his back. No amount of counselling will change that, amigo. Not for him anyway. He's got too much invested and he's too smart.

AJ

AJ .. I could not agree with ^^^ more .. all of it.

I thought I was the only one who felt there was a difference ... well .. call it a split in forgiveness .. untill reading how you described it I just did not know how to explain myself. I think you are on to something there .. I get it anyways.

As far as my S ... again spot on .. now IC might be good for him, but this issue, its not going to be resolved with counseling I feel ... I agree, he will test have his way and pull on the guilt strings to keep doing as he will. Funny just last night we were talking about something and I caught him fibbing to me, he was stubborn about it and I jokingly said a phrase my father used to use on me so often when I was young .. I nearly forgot it till this happened ... "Bullchit a baker you get a bun, Bullchit ol Dad and you ain't gonna get none" ... S looked shocked at me, one just becuase of the curse, but two because he realized I was not falling for it. HE knows he can not get away with anything with me, I do not scold him ... because I rarely have to ... I have firm boundaries, he knows what they are, and everything is in place .. he gets me, I get him .. all good. W needs to figure that out ... all her .. not my circus not my monkeys.

[uRworthy]

AJ, I hope one day you and I get to sit down and talk. You always make me think.

Ok, so I get what you are saying. I had to go and look up the definition of forgiveness. It is: “To stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake. To give up resentment of or claim for requital. To cease to feel resentment against or stop wanting to punish”.

I looked further and came upon this: The word “forgive” means to wipe the slate clean, to pardon, to cancel a debt. When we wrong someone, we seek his or her forgiveness in order for the relationship to be restored. It is important to remember that forgiveness is not granted because a person deserves to be forgiven. Instead, it is an act of love, mercy, and grace.

So, thank you for getting me to think. I still believe that you can forgive someone without them asking for it, though.

And Luke, yea your son is testing your wife. Some of that is normal stuff for a kid his age, some as a result of this.

I did not mean to imply that IC was because of his behavior. I do think that this has affected him and that being able to speak with someone neutral without worrying about hurting yours or his mom's feelings is a good thing.

You do have to find the right person or it could do more harm then good.

[Mighty]

Just saw the last couple of posts. And... what about when they apologize with sincerity and remorse... only to do it again?

I was working on forgiveness... first without the apology, got the apology, and... you know the rest...

I just feel like I need to turn over my hands and just drop it. Not in anger. Just in letting go.

Hi Cali. Sorry to hijack. I have been trying to keep up... but it has been hard for a few reasons. I have wanted to post to you by feel... well, first you are doing an amazing job, and bc... I feel so much of what you are dealing with. I hesitate bc, well.. things didn't work out for me so well, so who am I?? (but I've learned)... and sometimes it hits so close to home- things that are still pretty raw.

Anyway, I'm rooting for you, Cali! I think you are amazing. I've been thinking about what you are going through, and believe me, I know how difficult and scary it can be. But, you have so much strength, I know you will be great. Keep on keepin on!

Again, sorry to hijack!

[mleigh4]

Now you guys have me thinking... I can let things go, but I am horrible at forgiving. And I now see the difference. They are not the same thing. Can you move forward in an R without forgiveness? That is my question, and fear, for myself. I am not so sure that is possible.

Cali, I once got a post to try the forgiveness challenge. It's a 30 day program all online. It may be worth checking out.

As far as the parenting, my H and I have extremely different parenting styles. The scary part is, I have the same type of mornings as your wife!! Lol. Except wake up time is fun because it's me, dog and cat that do it with lots of kisses! But seriously, she will need to figure it out (just like me!) But I don't think it would hurt to talk to S about it and encourage him to help mom out. Hopefully she would do the same for you

.......no eating breakfast while watching tv???? Is that what I am doing wrong?? I can't even imagine cereal without cartoons....:)

[beatrice]

Hi - the forgiveness thing is both tricky, and complicated. and in addition I think we sometimes delude ourselves about it because we get the message that anger is 'bad' and forgiveness is 'good'.

I also think it is quite a bit different for everyone here.

In my case I got quite bent out of shape by the advice to forgive and not be angry. A period of being angry and unforgiving propelled me forward out of a shock and traumatized grief. But I agree it is a self destructive and arid place to stay for long

t is more like the train leaving the station than the station leaving the train. I just don't feel angry any more, and I have 'forgiven' my xh, in that I am pleasant and genuinely wish him well.

However, their journey is their own, and actions speak louder than words. If my xh is ever truly sorry (as opposed to saying sorry) for the hurt and pain that his choices caused to others (not just me) then like a reformed addict he will try and make amends for the harm done. My happiness doesn't depend on this however, nor does my having some sort of friendship with him, which benefits us both, I believe.

As our intense feelings disengage (mainly time, and quite a lot of effort, but you can't force it - just encourage the feelings to flourish) it becomes easier to let it all go - wash away, and we are left with what we had - a great love for a deeply flawed person. But without our own injured feelings.

As always with MLC it is hard to determine the extent to which we hold them accountable - I believe it is a type of breakdown. Why else would someone destroy their relationships and very often their career? I don't think my xh chose this, but I do think he could have gotten treatment at some point. And it would be nice if he stopped blaming others . . . .

[job]

I agree...forgiveness will come in its own time and each and every person will deal w/the anger and forgiveness in their own way.

It took me 3 long years to get over the anger of what my xh did. After the divorce papers were signed, etc., it took me another 6 months to mellow out and eventually the anger slowly subsided to the point that I wasn't angry any longer. The anger spurred me on to do what I needed to do to protect the assets, refinance my home and remove my xh's name from everything that I was tied to.

Forgiveness will not happen over night, it will be a gradual move from anger to a slow boil to forgiveness. When you do reach forgiveness, you will come to realize that what sane, rational individual would just walk away from all that he/she had? It's an emotional breakdown and to watch them spiral downward is difficult. Sure, we think of karma, and what goes around, comes around...but to actually watch them play out that "one more time" in the past is difficult because we know what it cost them to go back in time. It cost them their homes, spouses/companions, their children, finances and reputations. If they come out of the crisis, it will be very difficult for them to attempt to repair the damage and in some cases, they won't remember saying or doing certain things. It's very sad. However, by the time this happens we will have moved on and discovered that there is life after MLC.

So, please do not try to rush your process of mourning. Take each day as it comes and one day, you will wake up and that anger will be gone to the point of nothing he/she says or does will get under your skin like it does now. It will just be a blip on the radar.

Be kind to yourselves at this time. You are human and your emotions are running at an all time high right now because your journey has either just begun or you are dealing w/your MLCer over finances, visitation, etc. Step back and breathe! You are going to be fine. How can I say this? Because you are strong, independent people who care about life and want what is best for your family and for you.

[AJM]

Ur, I hope we get to talk as well, one of these days. I also hope there's a tasty adult beverage of some sort nearby

Forgiveness
forgive (v.) Old English forgiefan "give, grant, allow; remit (a debt), pardon (an offense)," also "give up" and "give in marriage" (past tense forgeaf, past participle forgifen); from for-, here probably "completely," + giefan "give" (see give (v.)).

The sense of "to give up desire or power to punish" (late Old English) is from use of such a compound as a Germanic loan-translation of Vulgar Latin *perdonare (Old Saxon fargeban, Dutch vergeven, German vergeben "to forgive," Gothic fragiban "to grant;" and see pardon (n.)). Related: Forgave; forgiven; forgiving.

So there is some concept in that idea of forgiving without their asking or permission. If you go with that etymology.

What we're doing is searching for the right description here.

Giving up the anger and desire to punish? Heck, by that definition I've forgiven my ex years ago. But my definition includes the restoration of *a* relationship of some sort. That's where true, deep forgiveness occurs from what I've seen and experienced.

Karma- (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

Karma does NOT sound like forgiveness to me. Sounds like an explanation why something happens and is often used as a "see, karma happens and that's why you fell down the stairs. You deserved it for your past transgressions." That's judgmental in my opinion. Who am I to judge your past behaviors except in terms of how they affected me and as an indication of future treatment? Enter the possibility of forgiveness for imperfect people.

In my experience I've seen no evidence of anyone truly forgiving the wrongs done to them until and unless they are asked for that forgiveness. Admittedly, I haven't seen everything.

Letting go of the hurt, pain, and desire to punish? I see that as a worthy goal to attain. It was difficult to get there to be sure. Why would you want to hang on to that junk in your life? But I can't get all the way to calling it forgiveness if the other person doesn't want it and doesn't ask for it and doesn't want some sort of restored relationship. It's something else at that point. i.e. there's still a debt being held and/or you simply cancel it and never have anything to do with them again. I can't see an in-between.

The idea that it happens over and over after truly asking? The question first has to be answered, "Did they truly want forgiveness?" If so, I fall back to my faith. I ask for forgiveness for the same things often. I desire that relationship and want the forgiveness so there is nothing between us. At some point you may get to the place where you hear the forgiveness request and have no reaction at all. You may just decide you are not willing to continue the relationship. i.e. you're not willing to forgive (cancel the debt) any longer. Or you may realize they are human and make mistakes and want *a* relationship with you of some sort, free of the past hurts. Even if they caused them.


Tasty beverages help to really tease out the details of such thoughts. Not sure why that is, but it seems to make one more philosophical or something.

Ah Saturday mornings...

[LoisB]

Cal,

I think the journey through the anger to the other side of peace and serenity with all that went down when a spouse is abandoned by the other is deeply personal and unique.

How YOU get to the serenity is influenced by so many, many things...for instance, in my case, I'm influenced by how badly my kids have been treated...that brings up an anger issue in itself. I see my kids being left with a harsh legacy of being abandoned by their father and I know they will carry this burden for the rest of their lives. That makes me so angry I could spit. I know because my father and grandfather did the same thing. I know the pain. So, in my case, I am learning to find acceptance with all three of these men, not just the one and I'm learning that--when my spouse sets me off--often I'm feeling unexpressed anger from all those rejections. I would suggest you consider what other rejections/unfairnesses you have experienced that come up when you feel angry-things you maybe never made peace with in the past.

I believe gender plays a part. I'm a woman who was raised to be polite and smile no matter what abominations were happening around me or to me. I learned early to keep my mouth shut and look pretty even when I was being treated poorly. My mother, a southern belle, still shudders a bit if she hears that I spoke up for myself--even when it's appropriate and contained. So, in my case, I have 46 years of pent up frustration from "being nice" when maybe it would have been healthier for me to express my anger. I believe, in my case, my spouse, in his mental breakdown, often sets off the powder keg without understanding a thing about what he's doing. I explode.

I recently read an article that cited a study where individuals who swore frequently and expressed their anger were much healthier, physically, and lived longer than those who didn't.

I have, fairly consistently, unloaded on my spouse throughout our marriage and unmarriage--sometimes inappropriately--often inappropriately. The jury is still out, for me, on whether this was good for me or not. I honestly don't know yet.

I think I tend to blow when I realize I've been carrying his burden again and tending to this his responsibilities, etc... without giving myself a break. In other words, when I deplete myself trying to manage all the feelings/responsibilities/pain/grief/financial issues...etc, etc, etc...and it hits me hard..."WTF! Why am I doing all this?? You rat-bastard?!"

I'm on the fence with this one. I think the forum tends to get a little too warm and fuzzy sometimes with anger--especially with women. I'm still not convinced it's a bad thing to give this frustration back to the person who gave it to you...Obviously, how you go about it is the issue. IDK.

Still, I can see how using the anger to train for a marathon or write a book may have been--might be--as I move forward--a better avenue. I've definitely told the rat bastard how I feel :-) He definitely knows I think he's a rat bastard, emotional issues or not.

Plus, I'm very naive with others. I tend to see people at face value. If you tell me you are doing such-and-such or you feel such-and-such...I accept it as truth. Often, I lack the gene or ability to even notice when I'm being treated badly. I may not "get it" until hours, days, months or years after. I approach relationships much like a child and believe people too readily.

For me, this journey has lead me on a path of self-empowerment where I am better able to trust my instincts and my anger.

Ultimately, I think the anger is healthy and a sign that you are valuing yourself enough to see you deserve better. The serenity will come as you heal. For me, it comes in pieces as I move along.

But, in my case, I've had to take each bout of anger very seriously and dig deep when it hits. My spouse has continued to act out in some ways--which I honestly think he is oblivious too--but none-the-less--even after living apart for 3 years, his actions are still impacting my quality of life and that royally pi$$es me off.

More than that, I'm beyond angry that his ignorance to his own issues continues to impact the lives of our kids negatively.

In this case, as each action on his part sets of a healthy response of frustration and anger on my part...I see myself drawing on my inner male who wants to protect and defend my territory...whether it's my kids, my money, my sense of dignity and self-respect.

I draw on my faith quite a bit and I see in the Bible, quite often, where right fought the good fight against wrong and I believe in this strongly...even if they are ignorant to what they do. That doesn't mean I have to sit and accept it or keep my mouth shut.

Honor your anger. Know it comes from a place of healing and allow it to work its way out in whatever healthy way works for you.

[LoisB]

One other thing...I think the forgiveness comes naturally as you move through the stages. I tend to deal with one issue at a time. So, for instance, I feel myself not caring nearly as much about the affair anymore. I've worked throught a good chunk of the hurt/anger about the affair. For today, I can see clearly she is just a slapped-on bandaid for the issues underneath. The forgiveness is around the corner for me on that one. Not that I will forget necessarily or condone...but, I'm seeing it wasn't/isn't about ME. Forgiveness for me, is accepting and making peace with what how I was treated in light of accepting this person as he IS today.

Still, the financial impact and the impact on my kids...that's all very fresh and on the surface. Red hot right now and has been for the past six months.

[AJM]

The forgiveness is around the corner for me on that one. Not that I will forget necessarily or condone...but, I'm seeing it wasn't/isn't about ME. Forgiveness for me, is accepting and making peace with what how I was treated in light of accepting this person as he IS today

Cali's away for the weekend, I'm sure. I guess he'll find his thread blown up when he gets back

That's just it, Heather. Is it forgiveness if you remember or "not condone" it? Or is that acceptance?

To me, you're not forgiving the debt. You're healing from the event, but not wiping the slate clean. By definition, that's not really forgiveness as much as acceptance and healing.

Again, semantics to a degree. But one I've struggled with to be sure. And to me, I feel the difference is important. Healing? Sure. Forgiveness, which leads to the really deep down healing? Not so sure. i.e. there's a scar that taints many aspects of life if you don't get to that place, truly.

Personally, I'm getting to a place where I may not trust somebody who hasn't been through tough times of some sort. i.e. been seasoned. I like them anyway, but that deep connection I really want? I don't think it's possible because they don't have that perspective or a tested sense of their values.

That's me though. In this case, Cali's W is somebody who's been tested and seems to be developing. She's way behind in school though she seems to be on the path.

The question that comes up is if Cali (and she and S) can "wipe the slate clean." It can be done. I've seen it in my own family tree with my grandparents. But not an easy road. For that matter, neither is the other direction, right?

So I do think it's an appropriate conversation even if we did hijack his thread to an extent. (Thanks for the graciousness, Cali.)

Anger has its place to be sure. For a time. For a reason. After that, it just becomes bitterness and is no good for anyone. Forgiveness has its place as well. But I don't see it having a place until its asked for. Acceptance is a great place - the sky is blue and the world is a little brighter. I just think that acceptance, while the 5th and supposedly last stage of grief/injury, is really just the second to last stop where possible. The last one takes both parties in most cases.

The confusion sometimes comes up when we talk about dead people that injured us. Psych's will talk about forgiving that parent or family member or person that died years ago and we are still carrying the anger etc.

I think forgiveness is most often the wrong term to use there. Nobody wipes the slate clean from what I've seen. They simply accept that person for what they are, but would still "like" some compensation or evening of the books for the injury or tell themselves how much better they are now because of it and their taking the high road. It's out of their hands. Etc.

It raises a terrible faith quandary if we are asked to forgive and do not. But if we're not asked? That's where I see differences between forgiveness and acceptance.

I agree with you on the anger and admire your approach of one thing at a time. Seems you're digging deeper and deeper. Glad to hear that, Heather. I think it'll be much more valuable as time goes on.

I do also realize that anger exists in that place between expectation and actuality. It seems acceptance is a good release for that anger in that sense (see what I'm saying Cali? As a possible place to look at that road for forgiveness? It's a narrow road, Cali - you may have noticed )

AJ