Zelda - almost there

[Zelda09]

Synopsis. Long history of tumultuous R, very intense love feelings and faith and hope carried us. Mostly my energy and work in moving us forward as I dragged him along the path if I am truly honest. H has some rather underdeveloped parts of him, and I am described by friends as quite a forceful woman. So there. I quote, "The unstoppable force meets the immovable object." It wasn't the headline on the wedding invite, but should have been.

Separated, now what? WAH shut himself away for two weeks, acted like he wanted to work on our M after BD at counselor. Maybe.

Separation turning bad H went away, got colder and angrier with our limited contact. Friend of his contacted me, and asked me to fly up, and we started building a bridge home.

Turn around? H came home, initially all over the place and hostile. Puts ring on in a week, everything starts looking really great.

Navigating old ruts Hard DR work. I worked on my changes, H alternately seemed to try very hard and alternately started playing a lot of head games, eroding my sense of self. Worse than the year prior to BD.

I want it all, all right now. Feeling increasingly frustrated, I started this one - as with the last one - with the changes I needed to make it letting my H just do him. Well, one night I called him on his accountability for something he'd promised, and he became physically violent. No remorse. In fact, partied a bunch using my cc. Finally confronted, and he basically told me he didn't care anymore. A day after telling me how lucky he was to have me in his life.

Reflecting & Grieving Me questioning everything I thought I knew about him. Everyone's S here does some super crazy nasty stuff, but they're generally consistent about it. I am reeling.

Thank you to Vanilla, Susana, TLEE, Calibri, Gan, Toots, Wonka, Cadet, Fogg, Mozza, Maybell, Grass, heck...so many of you have given such kind support and posed some very good questions and given your points of view.

This thread will start with the idea that I am almost there:

-Detaching, really feeling H is not any of my business at present and forward.

-Accepting the past - eh, I will need more help with this.

-Making my changes - I am finding little opportunities each day to be more emotionally 'present' and tuned in to people around me, and non-judgemental, slowly but surely changing old walls and habits of thought.

- Letting go of need to control - most especially with this D process. I have turned it over to him since he is the one who didn't want to be here.

[Zelda09]

H has agreed to have a breakfast with me before he picks up his things. I will prepare a letter of intent I will ask him to sign and notarize, and deliver it there. We'll sort out some more logistics. Should be final stuff. He may have figured out our D paperwork and will present it, who knows.

And I plan to ask the questions that keep me up at night.

'Will he be interested in reconciling? HAHAHAHA, no, not that one. I've generally come to realize I love my H, but he is not equipped to build a life with me, as he is right now. If he wants to get himself together and come back looking to build, date...whether pre or post D, I'll handle it then. I no longer have any goals on this front, and I plan to be fabulous and happy again.

I am counting on his honesty (truly. he no longer wants anything from me, so the manipulation shouldn't be a factor.), and want to ask him if he planned to sabotage this at some level. How and why he bounced around extremes when he came back. I'm just interested in what he has to say about his messy head, what he did that night and why he handled it the way he did afterward. What those promises and declarations really meant to him when he came home.

I fully expect he will try to place blame back in my lap, and that's fine. But my bestie, who is very tired of hearing me grind my head into dust, has told me to go, do it, put the nail in the coffin and be satisfied with what I hear and never question it again.

So, my expectations (I know, I know) are that
1. I will be perhaps more puzzled and disappointed with what he says - but it will be out of the horses mouth and not mind reading, so it'll help put some of that to rest for me.

2. We'll have a 99% clean break from each other in all practical senses after we tidy up some affairs that morning, and

3. in a week or month, he will file for our D, and I'll show up and smile and sign stuff when the time comes.

I'll not need to ever question that he still wanted this and I killed our M because of the hard line I drew over the abuse. If he wanted to be here, he would address it. Your move, H.

[Zephyr]

I will make a toast this weekend, to some peace of mind for you Zelda!!!

[Zelda09]

Thanks, Zephyr! I think my mom has tried to make that prayer once or twice, but I have a feeling it keeps getting heard as 'pieces of mind' lol.

[Heart14]

Z, I'm sorry things are tough right now. Good luck at the breakfast. I fear that any answers you get from H will not really help though. Seems there is never a good enough answer to any of the questions we ask as LBS's.

It's still early days since the split. Be gentle with yourself. It will get easier with time. ((((Z)))) You are strong!

[Zelda09]

Thank you, Heart.

I don't feel so strong. Too much of my angry heart holds slivers of hope that he may get his life together and pursue me. As V said, we hope for lotteries, too.

But I know I can do this. This forum is a god send, god bless it for not letting us wear our friends and families out and being full of ppl who understand.

[TLEE86]

I am counting on his honesty (truly. he no longer wants anything from me, so the manipulation shouldn't be a factor.), and want to ask him if he planned to sabotage this at some level. How and why he bounced around extremes when he came back. I'm just interested in what he has to say about his messy head, what he did that night and why he handled it the way he did afterward. What those promises and declarations really meant to him when he came home.

Z-although you are having an "honest" discussion with H, just remember that straight from the horses mouth, might be a [censored] up, retarded horse (no offense or disrespect at all). But that we don't know how honest his honesty really is at this point. He is clearly not 100% himself, so please be careful as what you take for truth.

3. in a week or month, he will file for our D, and I'll show up and smile and sign stuff when the time comes.

Why do you feel like you have to smile about this. Im not saying your going to be you know pearly whites showing, flashing a gorgeous smile, but most people will probably disagree with me, but who says we have to be ok with this? If my W wanted a D, theres no way in hell i would show up smiling. Would I be bawling my eyes out, crying up a storm? No. But I would probable be genuine, in the sense that I don't want this, its your move, but I respect your wishes enough even if its not what I want. I guess, bottom line, i don't think being genuine is really that bad because he will clearly see through fakeness if you get too crazy with it. Idk...

I hope the breakfast goes well for you Z, and please let us know how it goes. But go into it with no expectations and the only one you should expect is that your questions might go unanswered...i know its hard, i just met my W too remember? I just hope you don't expect too much from it. Nothing but the best for you Z.

[Vanilla]

I hope H thoughts are not as scrambled as the eggs.

V

[Zelda09]

Thanks, TLEE. I say smile - I don't mean to say I'll look radiantly happy or intend to play that way. Just as a term of acceptance I suppose.

V, I'm sure H's thoughts will be over-easy (on himself) and I think I am prepared.

I am glad I will get to look him in the eye and have a civil discussion about what those 8 weeks were, whatever he says. The way things went down, I never got any of that.

Does it matter much in the end? Not in terms of the sitch, but no matter what he says - I will have a dead end to what has been endless questioning and I may be able to seal that part of my brain up the next time it starts, and tell it, brain - you heard the man, his feeling and thoughts are valid, and this is what happened according to him. So there. You can't change it, influence it, fix it, and now you know. It shouldn't be necessary for me to have closure, but I think it will help a great deal.

In the end what really matters is that I know that is not how I can be treated. I'm not willing to be in a M where 'we should see other people' is threatened when I want to ask something of him; or that his suicidal thoughts are suddenly brought up when I wish to talk about my feelings; where all kinds of manipulation and intimidation and abuse are present. I know what I know.

[Zephyr]

Zelda, I am proud of u reading that u are willing to protect yourself from the manipulation... It is abuse. You deserve to be shown love, without strings, without the BS. I kept telling myself there is no perfect love. I have been wrong. Perfect love is the love that i show myself. I just have to be ready to show it and be willing to accept it...sometimes I have had troubles with this.

[Zelda09]

I've identified a stumbling block. I try to imagine being with someone who loves me well and my first thought is, "Z, you were loved very well and it wasn't good enough for you."

I think of my H after he came back doing the laundry to surprise me. Or knowing I had a tough day and sitting on the dock with wine to talk about it and be there for me. I think of him rubbing my back as I had a breakdown. His arms spread wide walking down a public avenue to meet me. His anxiety if I hadn't eaten in the morning.

It wasn't consistent though. He could also be very mean if he felt small it defensive and I was doubting myself constantly. Like being on a yo-yo. And that is probably why it felt like love to me, I think. Going back to childhood.

It is important to not idealize our spouses or the M we're losing, I think. Not to become myopic and to really listen to our thoughts.

I've found its easier to say in an imaginary convo with him, "H, I no longer want to be your friend. Your friendship wasn't reliable."
Seen in those terms - I'd never put up with a friend - or draw one so close- who treated me this way. Without sex and all the life-building associations and memories, the core feelings are clearer to sort out.

[Zelda09]

Wow - just read an article recommended by Mozza on the lines if Fcuk Yes or No that answers everything I wrote above - lukewarm and inconsistent isn't the same as 'loved well.'

[Zelda09]

H texted me today to say he has been to the courthouse and has paperwork to go over with me for breakfast, or now, if I cared to join him.

I didn't realize how much of my heart was open to making excuses about the timing of the fight/settlement check arriving. I was prepared to give him time to get his head straight and find himself. But the man that had trouble with the smallest of tasks is all over this. I've never felt so used and discarded in my life. It's like a wound that every time I think is healed is poked. I feel like this confirms it. It was about using me until he had his settlement.

I had drafted and printed a separation agreement that covered all bases. I was going to present it to him to sign so that while he did his thinking I was protected. I may still regardless of what he shows up with.

I feel he is some kind of monster. The victim only as long as needed to have food, shelter, clothing and love and couldn't count on himself for his needs. As soon as he could, it's like this means nothing to him.

Mark Manson had another good one on strong boundaries. His article described the rollercoaster r where one party feels the need to be overly responsible for feelings, needs of the other. The other of course feels everyone else ought to be more responsible for their feelings, needs.

Most of your spouses, they waffle. They cry. They have regrets, they have emotions.

Who was this guy I pushed so hard for? Was he acting during all those super happy with me, ily so much times??

I'm angry at myself for allowing this to hurt, to rock me anymore.

[Zelda09]

Guys, help me out please. I thought I was ok with this. I feel like I'm having a meltdown.

a) fresh horror at how callous he was and is. I could not have been loved during piecing, the year before BD...ever? Maybe the first two years?

b) it's over. it really is. have I been in denial? I don't want him or this r as it is, so what is my problem? That he's out playing poker and enjoying his new life?

c) I feel so small and worthless. I know this is not a healthy or rational response.

d) I can't make sense of anything that was. It's a huge chunk of my life that feels completely un-valid. Also not a healthy perspective but it feels like the real one.

Help me think healthy thoughts over here.

[Sotto]

Zelda, I think you are demonising your H - calling him callous, a monster. There are very few monsters in this world - but there are many who are lost, angry, confused and make mistakes.

Why would you feel that your H did not love you? Why would he try and repair a R with someone he didn't love? I expect that he did (and possibly does) love you - but that he has lost his way.

I can see that you may not want him and the R as it is. I feel the same way about my H and our R. But whether it is over is really up to you.

Who knows if he is enjoying his new life. We only really know these things if we can talk intimately with someone. Now may not be the time to have that conversation. But perhaps there may come a time.

You are not small, nor worthless, merely someone who is struggling to process and move forward from a difficult thing that has happened. But what has happened does not invalidate what has happened in your R thus far. There were happy times and there were harder times. They both stand together as your entwined lives. One does not overshadow the other.

Those are my thoughts on what you have posted. Posting this, I realise I didn't respond to your kind query on my sitch. No, I wouldn't be relieved if H filed for D. That isn't what I want. I'm not sure what may be possible at this point, but if we can reconcile, I would hope to.

Take care Z, and if in doubt minimise contact with your H until you feel in a more settled place. ((((Zelda))))

[Calibri]

Guys, help me out please. I thought I was ok with this. I feel like I'm having a meltdown.

First things first, I'm going to need for you to breathe. And then breathe some more. Ok?

Ok.....here we go.

a) fresh horror at how callous he was and is. I could not have been loved during piecing, the year before BD...ever? Maybe the first two years?

You can't define someone else's value and perception of love. Did your H love you? Maybe, maybe not. That's on him to figure out, not you. You can only evaluate your truths. Your perceptions. If he didn't love, well, then that's him, not you. Defining if he loved you or not doesn't fix anything. He could love you with everything he had, but it just wasn't what you needed, to feel loved. I don't think it's fair to say that he didn't love you.

I also agree with Toots, I think you're demonizing your husband --- a lot. I also agree with Toots, that there are some really horrible people out there in this world, but from what you said - I wouldn't put him in that category. Lost, angry, confused, rough around the edges, has some issues -- yes. But sweet Zelda, and I say this with all do respect, the same could be said about you. And, if I remember correctly, your friend pointed out that you weren't the best either.

I'm not trying to downplay your feelings or emotions. I acknowledge that you feel the way you do, and I can see why you would feel the way, based on your explanation of the events. But Zelda, your explanation of the events are your interpretation of what happened. Just like he has his interpretation of what happened. Somewhere in the middle, is the reality of what actually happened.

I have to admit -- I've cringed, alot, reading your posts. For you, and for myself as well. I see alot of myself in you, and I see how angry you are, and upset, and how you felt as a caretaker. And I know it's the internet and we all vent and what not, but I wonder if how we interpret you is how you come across to your husband? (And this is all water on the bridge...and what not), but it just seems like you're such a strong personality (hi pot, I'm the kettle! :-)) and I can't help but wonder....did your H become the person he felt.....for a lack of better words....beaten down to be? (and I mean that in the nicest way possible) You talk alot about what you've done for him after the accident, buying the house, dragging him along, him using you until he got his settlement, could it be that he played the role that he felt was necessary to be a part of the relationship? And when he saw that you weren't going to be there to take care of the things, he got his feet under him? Did you ever truly allow him to get his feet under him?

b) it's over. it really is. have I been in denial? I don't want him or this r as it is, so what is my problem? That he's out playing poker and enjoying his new life?

Don't assume it's all rainbows and butterflies. Early on in my sitch, I was so furious with my husband. He left. He was in a hotel room. NOOOOOO responsibilities except to go to work and go to crossfit. Parents were paying his bills. And I was left behind with a packed up house, animals, a yard to tend, everything. I remember in the conversation - yelling at him about how happy his life must be and that he was living it up, and he quickly assured me that it wasn't (and still isn't) rainbows and butterflies for him. I assumed that because he left he was happy. And he wasn't. And still isn't.
Try not to assume anything, because in my experience, it's usually wrong.

c) I feel so small and worthless. I know this is not a healthy or rational response.

I understand. I've been going through that alot lately. I think it's normal, but as you have identified, not healthy nor rational.

d) I can't make sense of anything that was. It's a huge chunk of my life that feels completely un-valid. Also not a healthy perspective but it feels like the real one.

I understand completely. Everything my H said when he left turned my world upside down. It felt like the last ten years of my life were suddenly invalid, hadn't happened, wasn't real. It made me question alot of things. Even after he's told me that a majority of what he said when he left wasn't true, the doubt still lingers. But for me, I know what my truth is. That I was blindingly happy, that I had an amazing ten years with him and regardless of what happened, I resolved that I wouldn't let his opinion ruin my memories. And that's something I struggle with, daily. But I think your IC hit the nail on the head. If it mattered to you, and you loved, that's what's important.

Zelda, I really, really would advise against going to breakfast with your H in the morning. Everything is too raw, and is like pouring salt in the wound. Tend to yourself. The rest will come in time.

[gan]

Hey Zel. Sorry you are going through this. It reminds me of my early days. At the moment it sounds like you are living a lot in your head and trying to find answers. Trust me - you'll just go in circles. You've got to make the decision to stop and more yourself forward. Come back to to processing in a few months from now when it isn't so raw.

A few ideas:
- Re-building starts with you owning your happiness. So what can you do there?
- Acknowledge the need to be kind to yourself. Do things that make you feel good, treat yourself to things you wouldn't usually do.
- I know I've pushed the yoga/meditation idea before but I really do think it helped me get out of the thought spirals

[Zelda09]

Calibri, Toots -

I hear you loud and clear. I want to believe my H was a good man and that's why I M him to begin with.

Toots to your point - "why would he try and repair a R with someone he didn't love" - that's just it. I don't believe he really was trying. I've tried so very hard to imagine him as simply angry, conflicted and someone who loved me but it still doesn't add up.

I think he was a good actor. I like your vision of the entwined lives we had. They certainly are different branches. And what is killing me today - I thought I would feel relief when he filed. I don't. I am melting down bc I've been lying to myself that I didn't hope for reconciliation. It sounds like you are honest with yourself.

I miss my old H, the one that was irresponsible, goofy, but the one I loved for all his faults. His tantrums would upset me but I never felt scared in the past the way I did that night. I felt loved by my old H, but it's so far in the past, I can't tell if that was me pulling him along or he really did have googly eyes at me. Calibri, I hope you are right in terms of his capacity. I really want to believe that.

Also, I read your posts and have the same reaction if it makes you feel better. We're intense people.

I was forceful, critical, judgemental, impassive when he needed a good listener, all of it. I can honestly say I held to my changes when he came back. The softer I was, the more he threw it in my face that he thought we should be apart, seeing other people, him questioning everything.

My experience was he used emotional blackmail to beat me down. In the last week I wrote in my journal about how much I was feeling hated by him, hating myself. Word salad in most conversations, but that wasn't new. Otherwise, yeah, he was great and kind as long as I wasn't asking him to put away his phone on a date, talk to me about what he meant by something he said, or how his job search was going.

His experience - I'm sure it wasn't easy being home again with 'no ability' to drive his car and get out. I'm sure things I said were laced with all kinds of echoes of jabs in the past to his ears and he was trying to find himself and also be good to me. I'm sure he was bored. He admitted to trying to feel love through intense anger from the last year.

I took care of him for almost three years. It does hurt. For one of the first times in my life, I'm losing my ability to provide, a grandmother, a pet, and he walks away now.

Calibri - honest question - how did I stand in the way of him getting his feet under him? How could anyone actually prevent another person from doing this? He didn't before Feb bc he was trapped by his case. After he signed, I was encouraging when he'd bring it up, but otherwise acted as though I trusted him to search out his own opportunities and proceed as he thought best.

I think you are correct, my H tried to fit in a box in this r that I'd formed for him. He wasn't sure about M but went on faith. Wasn't sure he wanted to be a family guy but was entertaining it. Our social circle and things we did was 90% around me, because hey, I'm the driver and if he wasn't coming up with options, I was. So yes, I think he denied his real self to try to make me happy and grew to hate me. He complained he didn't feel like he was in the same league with some of our other friends. And yes, I believe he may actually be happier hanging out at bars and chat rooms, playing video games, and I shouldn't try to look down at him for that, just bc he's not trying to finish his degree and prioritizing the way I wanted him to in order to build and share a life with me.

Three days before the incident, telling him about the employment; I told him about my plan and asked for his support as I transitioned into my business full time. I wonder how much of a factor that was - was he put off by the idea I would need him?

The next two days he was on the phone with his ex constantly. I saw it in my phone bill a few days ago when I tried doing calendar math.

The day after he threw things at me, destroyed my property and slammed a door into me because of a comment I made about his accountability in that instance. I swear I was not screaming banshee. He did this days before his settlement came in that week.

He never apologized, wouldn't look at me the next days and instead took my debit card out partying.

When confronted, he was smug and asked me what I intended to do about it. Actually shrugged when I told him how scared, hurt, disrespected and angry I felt about it all. He did that thing where his eyes got really big like, so what, what's your point? Our MC told me she thought it was sabotage. Conscious or unconscious.

The day after we agreed to D, he drove himself all over town. So much for 'inability'.

Since then, he's gone around town playing nice guy, accusing me of cheating to our closest friends and displaying absolutely no emotion as far as anyone can tell that this is over - "it's for the best. I needed someone who cared about me being me."

Am I really demonizing him? If it was JUST a WAS plan hatched a while ago and executed when he had some means, fine.

It wouldn't have been so bad except for the violence and treating me like dirt on his shoe afterward, the pretend I'm excited to be with you stuff the day and weeks before, the stuff that felt like such head games and manipulation - most WAS simply recede before they execute something like this, don't they? I felt like he took some pleasure in seeing me break down when he would say shitty things to me. Only to lift me up the next day. And it was fine, I thought we were 'piecing' and it was just hard and I was just dealing with his anger.

I will take responsibility for the ass I was pre BD, but I wore my giraffe ears and I tried until I was absolutely bent over.

Can we say he is a good person having done these things? Everyone has a TIFU moment. Everyone loses their chit. Everyone can be absolutely rotten sometimes, including me.

Even if he wanted to D me, fine, but why the complete lack of remorse about his actions that night? This lines up pretty well with what sociopaths are known for - the devalue and discard phase of their relationships.

Calibri, I thank you for your honest response. Really. I just can't see him as angry, lost, or whatever. It really seems to go beyond that. Maybe with some time I will feel differently. I hope so. I don't wish him any misery. I cried just as hard in the weeks during S, imagining how he'd suffered under all my pressure and criticism, how he was suffering and grieving for his body.

I just don't know what's real anymore. After watching him casually drive off, back and forth over the course of the next two days like it was nothing, when there'd always been such drama just when he sat in the drivers seat for five minutes with the car off...and looking like he was going to hypervenitlate backing out of the driveway, the deep breathing and what not. It all just disappeared after D talk. Like magic.

So - did he really have PTSD. Did he really have suicidal thoughts (that I heard about only when we were fighting or when I tried to bring up my feelings.)

And you're right - I don't know if he is enjoying his life or just sending pictures of him being out and about enjoying night life to my friends (not even our friends - he's sending this stuff to my girlfriends).

I think maybe I just need to go get some of this out kickboxing. Actually sleep tonight.

I want to think about what you guys are saying to not see him.

[Ggrass]

Word salad is an abusers way to distract you.

Threats of sucide and thoughts of sucide, to tug and direct your emotional response and emotions.

The whole present one relatity and then say it was never what they said while yelling at you, is more abuse and abuser speak for distractions.

Nc is for you, not him. It's helps close the wounds. I should know, it's been a year of basically nc. I'm feeling better and better all the time.

Some days I'm postaively dangerous! Trust me it gets better, you weren't foolish.

The best way I can say this is

You were not in an honnest r, he just wasn't able to be honnest and intimate, so you made the best decisions based on the often warped facts you had. Which now you might not have made, but they were what you though best at the time.

There are no right and wrong decisions. Just decisions very simple really.

[Vanilla]

Calibri, Toots -

I hear you loud and clear. I want to believe my H was a good man and that's why I M him to begin with.

There are good and bad in all of us. Just because someone is so can be irrelevant in an R.

Toots to your point - "why would he try and repair a R with someone he didn't love" - that's just it.

It made sense to him Z.

I don't believe he really was trying.

It is interesting that word 'try' because that is a word used to prexcuse failure. I will try to get there today, I will try to be healthy, I will try to loose weight! so to say he wasn't even trying says nothing at all.

I've tried so very hard to imagine him as simply angry, conflicted and someone who loved me but it still doesn't add up.

It made sense to him.


I think he was a good actor. I like your vision of the entwined lives we had. They certainly are different branches. And what is killing me today - I thought I would feel relief when he filed. I don't. I am melting down bc I've been lying to myself that I didn't hope for reconciliation. It sounds like you are honest with yourself.

Mind reading H but not really knowing what you want. Z work to do. If you decide to stand that's ok you know! You stand for Z.

I miss my old H, the one that was irresponsible, goofy, but the one I loved for all his faults. His tantrums would upset me but I never felt scared in the past the way I did that night. I felt loved by my old H, but it's so far in the past, I can't tell if that was me pulling him along or he really did have googly eyes at me. Calibri, I hope you are right in terms of his capacity. I really want to believe that.

Just because H has changed into something different, is unlikely to mean that the history needs to be rewritten. By rewriting and questioning history you are hurting yourself. The past is gone, let it rest as it was, let your vision of it stay pleasant. I see no value in changing your view of it. Remember the good stuff and stop poking holes to find the bad stuff.


Also, I read your posts and have the same reaction if it makes you feel better. We're intense people.

I was forceful, critical, judgemental, impassive when he needed a good listener, all of it. I can honestly say I held to my changes when he came back. The softer I was, the more he threw it in my face that he thought we should be apart, seeing other people, him questioning everything.

That just is. It is H issue, if you can say to yourself Z did the very best she could with things as they were then that's ok. It was as it was and it is as it is.

My experience was he used emotional blackmail to beat me down. In the last week I wrote in my journal about how much I was feeling hated by him, hating myself. Word salad in most conversations, but that wasn't new. Otherwise, yeah, he was great and kind as long as I wasn't asking him to put away his phone on a date, talk to me about what he meant by something he said, or how his job search was going.

Let H be. It's done now.

His experience - I'm sure it wasn't easy being home again with 'no ability' to drive his car and get out. I'm sure things I said were laced with all kinds of echoes of jabs in the past to his ears and he was trying to find himself and also be good to me. I'm sure he was bored. He admitted to trying to feel love through intense anger from the last year.

100% of what he says is unbelievable Z!

I took care of him for almost three years. It does hurt. For one of the first times in my life, I'm losing my ability to provide, a grandmother, a pet, and he walks away now.

You did what you did with love, no expectation of payback or reward? If you said "I am doing X and Y and it is an unspoken condition that you will do C" then that is passive master talk and ultimately a failure.

Calibri - honest question - how did I stand in the way of him getting his feet under him? How could anyone actually prevent another person from doing this? He didn't before Feb bc he was trapped by his case. After he signed, I was encouraging when he'd bring it up, but otherwise acted as though I trusted him to search out his own opportunities and proceed as he thought best.

Let it go, let H be responsible for his stuff. When H was very ill then we assist as the other can't as they recover then let them get on with it.

I think you are correct, my H tried to fit in a box in this r that I'd formed for him. He wasn't sure about M but went on faith. Wasn't sure he wanted to be a family guy but was entertaining it. Our social circle and things we did was 90% around me, because hey, I'm the driver and if he wasn't coming up with options, I was. So yes, I think he denied his real self to try to make me happy and grew to hate me.

Mind reading Z. Will not benefit you. No one can make another happy and it is not their job.


He complained he didn't feel like he was in the same league with some of our other friends. And yes, I believe he may actually be happier hanging out at bars and chat rooms, playing video games, and I shouldn't try to look down at him for that, just bc he's not trying to finish his degree and prioritizing the way I wanted him to in order to build and share a life with me.

H insecurities, H choices. Liberal spattering of the word try again!

Three days before the incident, telling him about the employment; I told him about my plan and asked for his support as I transitioned into my business full time. I wonder how much of a factor that was - was he put off by the idea I would need him?

Who knows? What help did you ask for exactly?

The next two days he was on the phone with his ex constantly. I saw it in my phone bill a few days ago when I tried doing calendar math.

And?

The day after he threw things at me, destroyed my property and slammed a door into me because of a comment I made about his accountability in that instance. I swear I was not screaming banshee. He did this days before his settlement came in that week.

I believe you.

He never apologized, wouldn't look at me the next days and instead took my debit card out partying.

mature huh!

When confronted, he was smug and asked me what I intended to do about it. Actually shrugged when I told him how scared, hurt, disrespected and angry I felt about it all. He did that thing where his eyes got really big like, so what, what's your point? Our MC told me she thought it was sabotage. Conscious or unconscious.

I agree with your MC on this Z.

The day after we agreed to D, he drove himself all over town. So much for 'inability'.

yup!

Since then, he's gone around town playing nice guy, accusing me of cheating to our closest friends and displaying absolutely no emotion as far as anyone can tell that this is over - "it's for the best. I needed someone who cared about me being me."

yup, I have this too.

Am I really demonizing him?

No. Your incident was real, horrible and damaging. That of itself is awful plus the subsequent denials and from your description there have been other warnings, pushing you over early on. Z, I think you are rewriting history and reflecting this behaviour back to other perfectly ordinary times. Today is a stormy, bad weather day, the winds are howling, trees are crashing down, but last summer sun was real, the beach party was real. Just because today has a storm does not make last summers fun any less so.

If it was JUST a WAS plan hatched a while ago and executed when he had some means, fine.

I think you credit H with too much foresight, but suppose he had done this? So what?

It wouldn't have been so bad except for the violence and treating me like dirt on his shoe afterward, the pretend I'm excited to be with you stuff the day and weeks before, the stuff that felt like such head games and manipulation - most WAS simply recede before they execute something like this, don't they? I felt like he took some pleasure in seeing me break down when he would say shitty things to me. Only to lift me up the next day. And it was fine, I thought we were 'piecing' and it was just hard and I was just dealing with his anger.

That is called an abuse cycle.

I will take responsibility for the ass I was pre BD, but I wore my giraffe ears and I tried until I was absolutely bent over.

Good I am glad you did. The problem is the expectation again, if I do X or Y then I expect C from you. Do what you do because you are DB. because it is the thing you need to do.

Can we say he is a good person having done these things? Everyone has a TIFU moment. Everyone loses their chit. Everyone can be absolutely rotten sometimes, including me.

Maybe!

Even if he wanted to D me, fine, but why the complete lack of remorse about his actions that night?

That is why they call it abuse. He may eventually feel remorse, but more likely sorry for himself and blame you.


This lines up pretty well with what sociopaths are known for - the devalue and discard phase of their relationships.

Careful about labelling H, call him on his behaviour instead.

Calibri, I thank you for your honest response. Really. I just can't see him as angry, lost, or whatever. It really seems to go beyond that. Maybe with some time I will feel differently. I hope so. I don't wish him any misery. I cried just as hard in the weeks during S, imagining how he'd suffered under all my pressure and criticism, how he was suffering and grieving for his body.

Well, you can let go of that now!

I just don't know what's real anymore. After watching him casually drive off, back and forth over the course of the next two days like it was nothing, when there'd always been such drama just when he sat in the drivers seat for five minutes with the car off...and looking like he was going to hypervenitlate backing out of the driveway, the deep breathing and what not. It all just disappeared after D talk. Like magic.

Oh yeah! It is quite amusing to watch. my H still does this, "I am ill, so I'll, so tired, so sad, so sorry for myself" next minute "which pub, what golf match!"

So - did he really have PTSD. Did he really have suicidal thoughts (that I heard about only when we were fighting or when I tried to bring up my feelings.)

This is for H to know.

And you're right - I don't know if he is enjoying his life or just sending pictures of him being out and about enjoying night life to my friends (not even our friends - he's sending this stuff to my girlfriends).

H is going GAL. It is highly recommended!

I think maybe I just need to go get some of this out kickboxing. Actually sleep tonight.

I want to think about what you guys are saying to not see him.

Personally I think a good long cool down. This guy yanks your chains. H sends you to a bad head space, it is my opinion that you could do with some detachment first.

It seems like you want him to turn up, beg forgiveness, say it was all a mistake. Go back and be happy ever after with a H who says " I learned my lesson and it will never be like that again Z. I really truly promise". That both of you work hard to be the best you can be and it will be ok.

[Zelda09]

Breakfast was productive. I am glad I did not wait in purgatory. And I got my answers and no I didn't like them, but since we hadn't ever talked about it - I needed that and am glad he was honest. I recorded the convo and went back and listened tonight. And the day ended with one of the strangest human interactions I've ever had from another human being, pretty hysterical actually.

V, you are right on point about all.
I got these gems from H:

"I did care about our M, I did mean everything I said, it was always my goal to make you happy. I meant all those things. But you being so angry over the errand was the straw that broke the camels back. That's what I meant when I said I hope it was worth it to you."

"I think you wanted to cause me to do this. I think people need to understand how subconsciously they want to be treated. (OMG are you serious??) No, I'm not saying you wanted me to treat you like this. But what did you expect."

"I know it was wrong, I've been talking to people about it. I didn't apologize because I just didn't care at that point, wasn't interested, I'm done with apologizing to you."

"No...it's not that I don't believe people should have expectations of each other or be able to express anger. But I just can't deal with your emotions. You trigger this stuff in me."

"No, I don't remember ever saying stuff about wanting to see other people when I came home. No, I don't think I said that. No, I don't remember that either about "not trying to divorce you just yet. No, I never thought about being out of this M, I was trying all along."

"Yeah, maybe if you had let it blow over. That was my version of dedication. I thought we would just be miserable like that and that would be our lives and I would be steadfast whether we talked about anything or not. Our counselor told you I process slowly, I wasn't ready to think or talk about it. (in response to whether or not he needed me to be the bad guy)...no he would have never called it, he said. (In truth, he didn't before BD the first time, either. Just became withdrawn and nasty and man I beat myself up for how I reacted.)

"The timing was eerie that you kicked me out the day I picked up the check. It made me think you were in it for the $. I have that paranoia, too, you know. (I told him I'd have let it blow over if that was the case. WTF. We talked about it that none of it was legally touchable in the event of a D - what was he talking about?) IDK, just seemed strange. NO, I promise this had nothing to do with the settlement, no that wasn't my motivation. But it did enable me to not be here when I didn't want to anymore."

"No, I don't see me as a victim. But you kicked me out. No, I'm not saying you didn't have good reason to, but you haven't left me a lot of room to make any other choices."

"No, I haven't considered how you felt. I've not been trying to think or reflect about any of this, or I would have talked to you about it then, afterward. Now I'm trying to get on with my life and see people. No, I'm not trying to date. I've never cheated, ever. Yes, I'm trying to go out with girls. I don't want to be in a relationship. yes, I do want to sleep with people."

Despite ALL of this, (V - to your point above) I still had a breakdown when it came to the D papers on the table. Just told him I wanted to do it on a day I didn't feel so emotional about it. I asked him to sign the letter of intent instead and he said he would, but wouldn't without someone looking that over for him first, although it seemed straightforward.

So I asked if we shouldn't take some time and just be separated and a chance for him to get his feet under him and reflect. He said that was fine, he wasn't trying to push me into anything. So I asked if he would hold off on the sleeping with others thing while we were S and the answer was a firm no. He gave me a week of fidelity if I wanted it to revisit this and decide if I wanted a separation while he acted D, or whether I wanted to file. Because he admitted he might have regrets, he might wish to be with me again, but thought this was 95% the right path.

So no, I thought to myself. 'Z, H doesn't want to be with you and he said it in many ways and you have your closure, despite all the claims of how into this M he was trying to be. Those aren't the actions or attitudes of a man who cares, no matter the pretty stories you're hoping to tell yourself.' Z doesn't want to be with a man that she can 'cause' to act this way and wants to sleep around now. If casual sex is more important to him than some time to reflect on what he's done, go forth, H!

"H, no, whether I am ready to do this or not, I am listening to what you're saying. I would only be wasting my own time. I can sign today if this is what you want."

"Just like that?"

"Yes. If you're intent on sleeping with others within a week or two, I'll be just fine with signing today."

Yet, when we got to the notary, he refused to sign my separation agreement/letter of intent even tho he'd told me he would at the house while he was packing up. I refused to sign D papers without it. So he said he'd have someone look over my letter and he would do this again. Unbelievable.

I do want to examine what is wrong with my head that the D papers...after every straight answer I asked for...upset me so badly. That I was trying to bargain about it. Tall, beautiful, magnetic H with that great eye contact and all of our history. I was trying to hear the points about how much he once loved me to have tried for six years and not the rest of what I have written above. After an hour I felt like he might really have had some points. I read these points from my transcript and realize I was just getting worn down.

My M is over. He is driving the bus on this and I'd be nutty to want this in my life when he clearly doesn't want to think let alone change.

1. I can't fix/change him. Only me.

2. I need to stop trying to blame myself for not doing better DB/DR and preventing this all from happening.
------

Here's the funny story now. I was sitting on my deck chair, headphones on, and my neighbor across the way gestured for me to take out earphones. I don't know him well. He called out asking if I'd ever been offended by him, because sometimes I wave and say hi and sometimes lately I won't even act like I see him.

I burst out crying hearing echoes of my H telling me how not in touch with people I am, how I don't understand my own emotions, and just apologized to neighbor D and said no, it was just me, I'm going through some stuff. He apologized and went in his house. And then walked through my gate ten minutes later from the front (first contact) and gave me a big hug. I blurted out my H left me. He then told me his gf had been upset about him always trying to chat me up, and I took a step back and asked him if they communicate. He vented, said they're moving out of town shortly.

Then told me he was a world famous porn star and I could look him up by such and such name. That he was glad he came over, he'd thought about it so many times earlier, bc I needed to know what a goddess I was, my legs, his GF was right, and he was sorry for everything I was going through. (overly crazy, complimentary talk. what he wanted to do to me if we were both single, pretty vulgar.)

"Gee D... that's sweet. Thanks for coming over, I needed to hear...some of that. Go home and tell your GF you love her and work out your communication. Good luck to you."
_____________

I am exhausted. What a day. I do believe I have my closure.

I'm sure H will have someone look over the S paper/LOI and tell him it's harmless and we'll notarize both documents. He was asking me at breakfast just to tell the judge at time of hearing I wanted the QC, he'd agree, and it would be written in without 'complicating' it with my document. I said I don't know that's how it works and neither do you. I want it in writing. He promised up and down he wasn't trying to hurt me and didn't want this house. I just don't trust him.

[Ggrass]

lol to the neighbour.

I too have had a few say I would do you too. Must be a bloke thing.

Some of the stuff up the top your h said was script, my h said the same apart from he's totally the victim and entitled to act out via the a! As I caused the whole shite pile and I could keep it.

Just know he's more than likely hurting and taking it out on you. It's not really about you, while if feels personal it's not really.

[Zephyr]

Hey Zelda, looks like your h provide d one thing today...that he is a fool. We are all imperfect and there are so few things that I can contour in my head that would not allow me to work things out with the one I love.
Will send extra prayers for you tonight!

[Vanilla]

Z

I agree with Gg on this. H is feeling sorry for H, poor H and his pity party. He is trying to move the responsibility for himself to Z. This is an appropriate use of try!

He has his settlement and wants fun and happiness, or his version of it. Which of course will be empty and when he discovers that then it will also be down to Z. I also have reservations on the fins, and prefer to get everything pinned down and in writing.

This is very fast S and D indeed. It might have taken your H a number of abuse cycles and Z being firm "I will not be abused" before H recognises he is an abuser. You know you can still stand for as long as you want and that is ok. Z stands for Z and her principles until she is ready to leave her M behind.

The cycle need not repeat for Z As long as Z recognises it and runs a mile from any frog who pretends to be a prince.

My only concern is for Z on this one as closure isn't all it's cracked up to be. There will always be open questions when we mind read. I am glad you recorded, I believe it's a good strategy in abuse sitches, but unhelpful in others.

Z it will be alright in the end and if it's not alright it's not the end, besides the fat lady hasn't sung.

((((((((Z))))))))))

V

[Vanilla]

Z

Sorry fat finger syndrome, my edit took too long as I was thinking. duh!

H is reluctant to accept he is an abuser as it does not suit him to do so and the fact may be damaging to him. Reality is tough to bear and abusers only face it after consequences for behaviour. H ending up with the result that he would like is reward not consequences. So his actions have few hard consequences for H and in order to restore himself to his own high opinion he will have to self deceive, blame Z and rewrite history. To be expected, he will counter what he believes are your views and statements to others.

I am glad you recorded your conversation, I believe it's a good strategy in abuse sitches, but unhelpful in others. In general when we ruminate recording others is problematic as it causes looping. In abuse sitches then it becomes important as shock can cause us to doubt our reality. If this helped you clarify then it was a good choice for you Z.

V

[Zelda09]

Question from a DR perspective. But first, Thanks, Gg for the reassurance. And Vanilla for your take on it all.

There's a big part of me that wants to stand and hope and be a good DRer - am I out of my mind??

1. Exhibit A - H's signs all long he was immature, manipulative, that I was dragging him. Now he'll protest and say he wanted this, but eh. He was never really fighting for this.

2. Exhibit B - what I call a lot of emotionally
Abusive/twisting/denial. I know. I love him anyway. He said he took responsibility for handling things but still claimed I arouse this anger in him too much through my own style of confrontation. Is there hope for change even if he sees it someday? And is the excuse the same next time?

3. Exhibit C - complete lack of remorse and interest

4. Exhibit D - wanting to see and sleep with others.

How could I possibly stand for my marriage? And have any self respect? I dread those papers and finally saying its over and I don't want to sign - but I think we've had years of this and it's getting worse.

I just feel miserable not being able to let it go and feel like this is right.

[Zelda09]

What would waiting on signing that stuff actually accomplish for me?

[Zephyr]

It will buy you time to think and to be sure you are doing EXACTLY what you want to do for your reasons. Maybe your mind is all made up, maybe you are tired of it all, it is understandable. We just want for you to be sure of what YOU want to do.

[Calibri]

2. Exhibit B - what I call a lot of emotionally
Abusive/twisting/denial. I know. I love him anyway. He said he took responsibility for handling things but still claimed I arouse this anger in him too much through my own style of confrontation. Is there hope for change even if he sees it someday? And is the excuse the same next time?

Z-as someone whose husband had blamed me for arousing all the anger in him......know that while parts of you may trigger or push his buttons, you are not responsible for his reaction. He makes a choice in how he reacts with his anger. I'm reminded of what someone once said here, "blame is a way to discharge pain and discomfort."

As for the rest, you have to make the decisions that are best for you. No regrets at the end of the day, you know?



[/quote]

[Zelda09]

I wanted some time to process this. But not while H runs around getting herpes. I was hoping he'd take some time but he is clearly not interested. So at that point, I fear I am hurting myself by standing Alamo style in a losing battle with someone who's not interested in being with me.

[Zelda09]

Thanks, Calibri.
I am hurting, wondering if I'm delusional in how bitchy I was really being about the dam errand. Idk if it is understandable for someone to not be interested in a M suddenly bc of something like that when they swore up and down that was their goal in coming back. In fact when I asked him this yesterday, he got upset on this point alone and said, you're really pis...me off. I told you my goal was s happy M.

I do know I didn't deserve what happened that night.

My no-regrets plan had been to let H take the wheel on this. And he did. Now I sm trying to move the goalposts. It's desperate.

[Calibri]

Z-

How long does it take to process a D in your state?

Mine has a one year physical separation period before you can even file.

Could you not use the time (if it's not something insane like 30 days or less) and just let it be? Instead of holding on or looking for answers, let it evolve how it will?

Two couples come to mind right now, when I think of separation. Both I know very well.

-One couple split, she moved out, they were separated for the almost full year our state requires. The H actually started dating someone else, during the process. I don't know about the W. Eventually they came back together and had worked through their issues to the point where they could address the marital issues.

-The other couple, has an interesting dynamic. H has alot of issues, said he would see a MC, but wouldn't follow through because he didn't want "some stranger telling him there's something wrong with him." But told the W that, "she shouldn't date or sleep with anyone else in case they did reconcile, because he wouldn't get over that." The W let him go, let things happen as they would, but stood for her M. While standing, she realized that she didn't want to work on the M. That she was happy to move forward.

You can process this with or without your H's involvement. H being interested in you or not has no bearing (imo) on processing what's happened.

[Calibri]

Thanks, Calibri.
I am hurting, wondering if I'm delusional in how bitchy I was really being about the dam errand.

I understand completely. I didn't think I was AS bitchy as H said - until I looked back at my actions in horror and then I realized that, oh yes -- I HAD been that bitchy. Some of it towards my H, most of it not, but he unfortunately started taking every bitchy thing I said to heart - even if it wasn't directed at him. That makes me sad, for both myself and him.

Idk if it is understandable for someone to not be interested in a M suddenly bc of something like that when they swore up and down that was their goal in coming back.

I struggled with this alot. I related to what your H said about the straw that broke the camel's back. Know what mine was? An argument about his parent's manipulating him and him going along with it and me, tired from three hours of sleep, frustrated that he was getting manipulated, stressed out because I was packing up and painting a house....I LOST IT. Alot of it was stress based, insecurities that mainly have to do with his parents. And that's where he claimed that he was finally *done* with me. I'm like, over an argument that was over in 10 minutes and that I apologized for? You're leaving over that? But, at that time, enough was enough for him. I scratched my head -- because I'm like, we've had worse fights then this, what about this made it "the end."

In fact when I asked him this yesterday, he got upset on this point alone and said, you're really pis...me off. I told you my goal was s happy M.

Happy marriages, working on things. They all have bumps in the road. He doesn't seem to get that. But honestly, I can't tell what end is up with your H, sometimes. As must you.

My no-regrets plan had been to let H take the wheel on this. And he did. Now I sm trying to move the goalposts. It's desperate.

My H has moved the goalposts alot during our separation. It pisses me off. He's doing what he feels he has to do. So why are you trying to move the goalposts?

[Zelda09]

I am moving the goalposts because my little heart isn't getting the outcome it wanted underneath my angered at how it has gone down and the doormat I don't want to be.

I am desperately hoping that time will buy husband wanting to change himself. I wonder if this can be a really bad move on my part for my own mental health. H was frustrated yesterday, but he said he understood that if I wasn't ready to sign that I wasn't, and that was okay with him but you seriously doubted our marriage had any chance of reconciliation. He threw out the 95% number and an idea that if it were to happen, it would be after divorce. I hardly call that mixed signals in light of everything that has happened.

His point of view, if I choose to believe what he told me: he left me, he wanted our marriage to work, he tried as hard as he could, it was always his goal, and there was the straw that broke the camels back with his temper, he has never been out of control like that, it was wrong and in how he handled it, but he really didn't care it because I brought the argument to him, it felt crazy, he realized he couldn't make me happy, and he is just done now. I had a right to kick him out of the house but he is happy to be on his own.

I am also moving the goalpostsin my own head. I believe it is called bargaining. I was horrified when he told me yesterday that we weren't even three weeks out of that fight, and he was already trying to see and sleep with people. Now for some reason I am wondering if I can just hold out, and let him come to the realization that the cliff he mentioned yesterday the one that he is feeling chased by, isn't our M.
There is no waiting period in my state.

It's like I have a mental split of my husband. I am imagine him in the year as we were happy, and then there is this very cold strange version of him that I've come to know in the last six months. I can't seem to resolve this into one image of him in my mind. I can't seem to except what is happening, without believing that there is somehow a way to bring back what is now past. Rationally, I do know that this is ridiculous. My marriage is done. He is no longer the person he used to be.

why can I not find acceptance with this? I don't want to be with somebody who treats me like this.

[Zephyr]

I think the hurt you are feeling is shared with so many Here, me too. I don't know why we are scared or hesitant to accept the loss of someone who is currently treating us like $hit. Are we stubborn, afraid of being alone, afraid of accepting that there is someone we have shared so much with that just doesn't want that from us anymore...disappointing maybe. I thought for a long time that maybe my fears of being unwanted by anyone in the world was finally coming true, that the one person who saw me as desirable and lovable finally came to her senses and that my fears were true. I know now that is not true. I may not be the most handsome dudw in the world... But I have so much value, I know I would be a catch for virtually any woman in the world. Smart, funny, great father, tender,best shape of my life, great career....etc. Quite a catch.
From what I've read from you, you are too. Just so confusing!

[Zelda09]

Zephyr, thanks a bunch.

I get it. I sometimes fear my H is the balanced one, despite my career, talents, friends, all the things I thought I was happy with, including my general outlook, I thought I was funny, happy. Maybe he was right, and I was never happy. Maybe he is the balanced one, because he can see the situation isn't good and is ready to end it. Maybe he was right about all the things he said about me not being in touch with emotion and all the rest of that crap. Who knows.

A lighter note, it has taken about every bit of willpower to not text him today and let him know that I had an award winning porn star come on to me last night. Figured he wouldn't mind since he was so all about sleeping with everybody? Lol.

Zephyr, I'm sure you're attractive. Model handsome guys are boring to look at, it's always nice when there's a certain balance of features that are distinctive, or like Poe said, true beauty is having one feature a little off. Attractive is in the way we carry ourselves, what we believe, the respect we show through treating our bodies well and dressing as though we like ourselves a bit, yeah? And then there was my H's favorite quote - it's amazing how complete the illusion that beauty is goodness. I wonder if he was talking about himself sometimes.

I had a fleeting thought to tell H in a letter what I really think of his running all these years, the conversations he says that he can't have with himself because he doesn't know how, baking cookies for people because he wants them to like him instead of wanting them to have cookies. Volunteering and having classic books on the shelf not because he enjoys any of it but because of its image. The cliff that he says is chasing him. I do worry for him. As angry as all this makes me, there was somebody worth loving inside of him, and he is not interested in looking at himself much last loving himself, and I want to tell him that. That he can't get self respect and appreciation from outsiders except as fleeting moments. He has to do that for himself. I want to ask him if he can't at least try for a little bit to heal himself before he decides that our marriage was what was making him unhappy.

But that would be me forcing my point of view. It would be me not accepting him where he is now, trying to change him, playing into mother/pursuer.

[Zephyr]

Maybe some day he will come to love himself like you said. Save the letter...That is on him. That is a path that you cannot force him to go down, right? We can focus on loving ourselves and finding our path, which is the prime directive right now!

[Zelda09]

I had two beers tonight and just want to vomit. In the course of one month, my H destroyed an already shattered heart once more with the violence, the apathy, the settlement timing and now wants to sleep around. Because I "brought the argument to him and you know I can't handle it."

I must have been awful to be around. He told me he was too gentle of a creature to handle me. I could cry for days, this is so deeply wrong. I can't hesitate when he wants to sign again. Such a gentle creature is not worth waiting for.

[Zephyr]

Zelda, you will get through this! There is a lot of anger there right now and it is so understandable (I'm a little angry for you). I think you will have to let that anger go before it eats you up. i have seen it many times with friends and family members (and probably my wife, you know If she ever would tell me what is going on in her brain). Resentment will certainly follow, which will not be healthy for you. Tomorrow will be a new day for zelda.
By the way, what kind of beer

[TLEE86]

Z- H can sleep around and do whatever he wants. He wont find what he is looking for. Its just a temporary fix. He will soon realize that nothing can satisfy him because what he is looking for is in you.

Please don't ever question what you did by kicking him out. You had every right and I'm glad you did it. You stood for you and what you are not willing to accept. I am so sorry about what you are feeling, I wish i could just give you a giant bear hug.

Keep your head up Z and drive on. Things will work out. You know it will.

[Mozza]

Zelda09 - Me again, the wannabe Simon Cowell of marriage counseling. So I'll tell you straight: what I see in your future is a new partner that will be so different, so much better than your H that you will wonder why you ever wanted to be with him. You're learning a lot and just your presence here shows how much you care about being a better person. If you now think you were the wrong one, it's because he's been gaslighting you (making you doubt reality with his lies). From what you wrote us, he's the aggressor and blames you for his reactions. As someone with kids, and five years on you, I envy you to be able to make a fresh start. Plus, you seem very hot, given that neighbor story! I laughed. Anyway, the hardest part is now: letting go. Remember: you want someone who will say "Fcuk yes, Zelda!"

By the way, thanks a lot to you, Vanilla and all the others who talk about abuse. For anyone who's been dumped by a disillusioned spouse, it's interesting to put our role in the M dynamics in perspective.

[Zelda09]

Mozza, Zephyr, TLEE - thanks gents. Feeling better today, a good session with my counselor that will help change my focus from feeling sorry for myself to something more productive.

I do not believe my H will be looking for something in me -that would require a genuine connection that existed only in my mind. Tlee, I gotta say, your story of realizing 5-6 months later is further and further out of the realm of possibility for the H I see now without his mask.

I do believe a partner that will give equal effort and support is in my future. And no, Mozza, lol, I wouldn't consider myself particularly hot, my friendly neighbor baffles me. I'm petite, muscular, look like Claire Forlani if she had a captain america jawline. I drink Oatmeal Stout, Zephyr. Porters and Browns, too.

I saw my IC tonight, the one that saw us since Nov for MC...told her about the breakfast and she had some interesting insights.

She said that I was trying too hard to make sense out of something that is not possible to understand, still searching to blame myself somehow. I asked her how to stop thinking and she said I couldn't but encouraged me not to do the Sheldon (3rd rock) algorithm trying to makes sense out of this crap.

But she talked with me anyway about trying to resolve H from her perspective, which was impartial at one point.

That my H has swept most things under his own rug and she saw that he would twist and twist and twist until he could come to something that made sense to him that he could stick with.

That in her estimation, he was still playing the same old game we'd played since the year we first started dating - he crosses the line, I protest, threaten break up but tell him how much I love him, leave a road back, after enough twisting, I relent and apologize for my part in provoking him, he has deep thoughts and finally recognizes his actions and apologizes, we talk about how to resolve in the future and we're back together.

The difference this time was that I didn't apologize. She felt he was banking on me breaking down and that's the only reason he let it go on for two hours when he was so intent on being out living his life. (You know what is funny? When she said that, I felt a sting of hope, like oh my goodness, I could have turned that around! I need to look at why I am still trying to convince this man to be with me. I would have never guessed my head was this messed up.)

That it's easy for him to claim he's not interested in thinking about things so that his actions past and present have a little wiggle room in them - after all, if he thought about things and still stood behind them, that's another matter for him to look in the mirror with - and it leaves no room to have any revelations and come to understanding with me if he should so choose later.

She still feels he's sabotaged everything and that I got played. She does not believe that he was legitimately trying in our M when he came back because of the things he would say in our sessions about not having the energy to work at our R right now. That he strung me along enough until he could support himself out there. Putting his ring on. Making some efforts and saying pretty things.

Whether or not he knows his own game, she said she's not sure, but there are signs he's still trying to stay connected to my life through the people he's asking out for beers, the random acts of kindness to those around my employment situation...and she can't help me make sense out of why he suddenly backed out at the notary, but says his long game might not have an objective, he might be toying to toy, because it's what he does. (Mozza, I think of your velociraptors.) But she's sickened. This is as much of her own opinion she's ever offered, finding his manipulation she witnessed in session, plus the transcript of breakfast combined with his previous 'I'm not willing to see her point of view' statements just kind of sickening overall.

The calm, rational, I'm better adjusted than you rhythm of his voice, with statements that make absolutely no sense or contradict each other in three different directions. Big words but claiming low reading comprehension. For a guy that was terrified to drive only a month earlier...I watched him speed around a parking lot and pull into a spot like Dale Earnhardt before breakfast. I shouldn't take it personal, but I think of the long days I put in and how he just couldn't help with the errands...I feel like puking.

She says my biggest goal is to do some soul searching to figure out why this game has been so intoxicating to me for so long, why I wanted to play it, why I pushed to marry it even. She told me I did some good work on trying to digest my emotions, that she heard a lot less generalized judgment and anger from me, and now I needed to recognize my tendency to retreat into a monotone and start looking to express myself with some vibrancy. That I had plenty of emotions, despite what my H claimed, but I hid them under a very calm exterior.

I wonder if I was as monotone and impassive before my H met me. I know I was as a teenager coming out of the abuse with my dad. I wonder if I ever broke through it only to return.

[Ggrass]

Have you read about love bombing and narc r?

My h was yours twin, they whole dance is a dynamic which you need to break. I'm not whole sure how to break it while engaged with him.


I know nc breaks the dance as there is no dance partner.

[Zelda09]

Hey Gg, I've read about it.

I just struggle to see my H as a narc. Manipulative, yes. but the thing with narcs I thought was an over exaggerated sense of self confidence, big ego, every convo has to be about them. Overly self-important. This was none of my H. I question everything. Was yours mellow like this? There's just so much out there about narcissism, idk of the label is so wide reaching when ppl are just jerks. My bestie described H as non violent psychopath. Other words that have since been used to describe him: spooky, immature, definitely off, not half way normal, maybe mentally ill, charmer.

Did he have empathy? Yes. His eyes watered a bit listening to me, even at breakfast. Despite his claims of not caring or wanting to think. He was always crying actually, big emotional swells, but I have a nagging feeling about that - like anger was the biggest, everything else was calm, except for a sometimes childish mania or anxiety. Kind to animals. Seemed thoughtful, very. It was one of the things I loved about him.

Even if he was/isn't narc, did/didn't have episode - I could never trust him again.

Gg, what outcome in your sitch do you stand hoping for?

[Ggrass]

Nope, but it describes the dynamic.

While neither of them might be true narcs, the whole pattern of blame etc the dance fits.
In the beginning I stood hoping for things to get better, but my h just wanted to be proven right. So he kept moving the script and story to fit the facts.

He's still with ow, and it's been well over a year. Best Intel says she was around for upto 6 months before that.

The whole making the fight yours to fix totally my h way of doing things, but untill it was swept under a rug with no solution and the fight dynmics was the problem. It kept going round and round. H was very invested It keeping it going. He did make it my job to fix it all and always.

Yes, I have also gotten to that point where after all the stuff hitting s17 and the things h did to me, which were no light matters I could not trust him again.
The ow is just the last straw, not her specifically but the fact h felt entitled to dump us and go on a happiness search.

We all know there is no happiness out there points and waves into the distance... Lol

[Ggrass]

The love bombing and good times keeps you playing the odds for the poker machine pay off ( someone else's description whom I forgot to credit them with).

We get addicted and the pay off get further out, but we know it's coming so we keep playing the odds. Trauma bonding also makes the bond stonger thus harder to let go.

[Zelda09]

Look up covert narc, 23 signs. That's almost on point. Like the introverted cousin of the flamboyant one I associated with 'narc'

Oh well. It's enough to say that my STBX has some extremely unsavory parts of his character and I can't be with him again.

[Ggrass]

Yes, it's not ours to judge, but those behaivours fit.

I see my words in your words. I see my life in your life. It only gets worse when the other party indulges in narc behaviours. They will go a long way to prove thier script and mask right, they do not do it out of self worth and belief they are good but quite the reverse so no one sees them as bad, or sees the real them.

It's about protecting the outward facing mask that covers all the pain and uncertainty. The lack of character depth. Mine will make sure that no one believes the ow was his mistress, his narc image is he is loyal honnest and faithful. None of which is true, to confront that ugly truth even with 2 failled r! It's not going to happen.

H family even willing and knowing according to him, partipate in his r with ow.

[Zelda09]

I'm sorry for your pain, Gg. I can only imagine - I know - how it is to want to scream to the world what is really going on.

I've had moments today where I've considered if I was emotionally abusive, myself. I see it pre BD, man I was harsh and aggressively disappointed. Not when he came home tho. Maybe he just never trusted me deep down and maybe we've bern messing with each other a long time.

I see that I am still trying to blame me. My head is a mess.

It seems inhuman, what he did, his smug coolness this last month, the guise of wanting his happiness and mine too, and how at peace he seems with the decision he claims to have not thought of. The parts of him that aren't congruent. If he isn't rotten, than I am, to have driven him to this. That is what all my chewing and ruminating is about. Because there are so many wonderful memories and parts of my STBX I believed in. I know I shouldn't be trying to think in black and white, but I can't wrap my head around this being an understandable outcome otherwise.

[Ggrass]

It's just is these days.

And yes I want to warn h victims whom he takes full advantage of, but that's his to own.

Sane as your h, his behaiovur is his. It takes a long while to turn stuff onto what your doing and stopping engaging and playing his role, without thought.

What did you do that kept you traped?

I can see it, but often still I do those same things with others it's why habbits are hard to change.

[Zelda09]

gg, let me see if I can explain a bit. What the dynamic was.

My IC says there is no doubt in her mind that H played me - certainly
when he came home - whether he knew it at what level. Who knows how
long before that (wasn't he unemployed when he proposed?)- and when I
gave her details of the breakfast convo, she asked, how is this really
different than that first conversation when he pushed you off the dock
years ago?

We looked at it. It seems so final on his part now, but follows the
same pattern from ages ago:

I set strong boundaries, told him i wouldn't stand for the behavior.
Broke up with him that day. I wrote him the next day about how upset
I was, what is wrong with you?
He put it back on me that I made him insecure, but admitted the action
was wrong, said something pretty about our relationship. (No apology.)
I told him I loved him and was frustrated.
He said it was for the best, but he had loved me.
I denied believing that it was for the best.
He said he just needed time to process.
Acted jovial and just fine, pleasant, and made sure to be around
mutual friends where I would see him over the next several days. I see
him acting well-adjusted and I think, well, maybe I'm the one that is
messed up on this.
We ended up meeting, hashing things out, and after I recognized where
he was coming from and how I could have been less flirty...he
acknowledged his temper and said he would not get out of hand again.
We end up back together. The feeling I had was that it was what he
wanted to happen but just wouldn't come out and say it until I gave
enough positive signals. I accept this.

(^ this makes me nauseous now.)

Rinse and repeat about 3 times for violence or other serious violation
of trust throughout last six years. I am blamed for looking in his
phone in the first place. For pushing him when I could see he was
getting upset. Rinse and repeat, minus the break up part, for about 10
times a year for various fights. I always had to see his point of view
and admit being in the initial wrong, go to him, but this was the
pattern. He always was quick to suggest we split up in the middle of a
fight, or this wasn't working.

What was the point of such a game? Power. Over time I lost ground. We
had, after all, agreed that I did have all kinds of faults, I was
confrontational, independent, too direct, not in touch with my
feelings or his, he was a 'gentle creature that couldn't handle me,'
that I needed to be more considerate of. I doubled down on these
efforts when he came home. The consequence was his temper or
withdrawal if I poked him in the wrong place where there was
insecurity or was upset about anything myself. So, on the outside he
got to look like a meek man living with a domineering, forceful woman,
but inside I felt like less and less confident of anything and stepped
around him and all his issues as much as I could until I couldn't and
god forbid I got upset about anything, he got verbally abusive and
nasty.

When things were going well, he got increasingly needy and randomly
helpless - and if I protested, I suffered consequences. (And his PTSD
/driving inability he'd had for a year and a half goes away magically
after we break up, I see him speeding around the parking lot and watch
him pull into a spot like Dale Earnhardt that Sunday.)

IC said the breakfast I described followed the same pattern and she
believed he was banking on me breaking down and claiming fault for it
all. Otherwise, why would he hang out for two hours and play word
salad with me if he was so intent on getting on with his life? The
calm, detached, rational style he engaged with while making
contradicting statements or outrright psychoanalytical f with your
head kind of stuff.

She believes it's why he ultimately backed out of signing because he's
still playing. This time I didn't apologize or give him any room or
validation, and so he hasn't won yet?

Did it mean any part of him actually wants in this marriage still?
No... she doesn't think so. He was never truly eager in the past,
always me pulling him along. But now that he has some means, she sees
that he doesn't have much use for me and isn't romantically interested. But he's not ready to give up
whatever he gets out of this either. It's a game he plays, a long
game, she's not sure he understands the objective of.
Him toying to toy. As long as I'm willing or initiating contact.

So I have to figure out why I was so willing to play this game all
these years, hoping to fix this dynamic so we could live happily ever
after. That's my big project. I always thought he was a little messed
up with communication/defensiveness, but I took these conversations as
him actually being open to self improvement, change, we're perfecting
our communication, this is just the 'work' in a relationship...I
thought he was a good person and worth all the excuses I wanted to
make to be with him, because he was so great and kind and supportive
otherwise.

Even after breakfast that day, I felt worn down and like there was a
fog that stayed with me that made me feel like he was a loving partner
and I'd just been too much for him.

I'm thinking I need to reach out to him to ask if he's had someone
look over those papers, but I'm dreading how upsetting contact is to
me right now. It's like I don't want interaction until I can just not
be affected by him anymore. If love is a drug, this one was
particularly addictive. I feel like someone who wants to dry up being
faced with one last binge in order to do that.

I'm so convinced I married a sociopath. every
day of distance and perspective I get on all of it is pretty
disturbing to me.

[Ggrass]

Rinse and repeat for 11 years plus asult from of a minor which was my fault.

Why because I would not fight with him when he picked it.
He felt it is his right to injure a minor albeit 15 yo child these days with one punch laws, he could have kill my son.

Yet, h is stil, the victim and me the a fault party even with cheating asult h is e victim. I wore the lot, and took it on board.

It's not about you zelda, nor because of you.
Mine treats the ow with exactly the same disrepectful manners, that he won't toterate in others. It's all over thier fb, poor woman has no idea what she has signed up for.

She's an awesome judge of character and h is lovely.
H described ow as "nice" people who behave in narc ways need nice!

It makes me laugh, now seeing the games he plays with others. It's all game nothing about the person of love or care.

[Ggrass]

He needs you to stay involved hence the word salad trying to keep you in the game.


He wants some of the "nice" in his warped way he gets from zelda the power and the I'm good because your bad. Don't play. Let the L play.

[Zephyr]

Zelda, you have been through a lot over the years...no question in mind. You are going though a $hit-storm right now. I have to ask if you have assured yourself Physical safety? It turns my stomach and boils my blood to hear about domestic violence, whether it is full blown or borderline..in my mind there is no difference and it is CROSSING THE LINE. Clearly you h needs help, but that us out of your hands, right? You can break this cycle and feeding whatever this thing that has grown. You have an opportunity to Free yourself of this.

[Vanilla]

Z

The difference now is that you broke the cycle. You applied an intervention and H still wants the old pattern.

H needs the old pattern. Look Z is a strong person, and I am stronger than Z. That makes me an amazingly wonderful person. So H wants and needs to rinse and repeat. Z does not.

Z you are brave as brave as Gg. Facing up to and acknowledging this is a really big change.

I really want Z to put her energy into Z, TLC. Real TLC extreme self care. Z, your journey and your enormous courage is very important here on the board. Abuse in various forms should be voiced. None of this is your issue in H, you did not cause it, you can't control it and you can't cure it. It's H and his crappola to sort. Like waywardness this one is a deal breaker for an M. With physical abuse I say get safe.

I for one am relived that you can not now unknow, you can detach and observe.

Gg is much further along the journey than me, and both of you have had this for much longer in your life than I have. So I take Gg and what she says very seriously, when I first arrived Gg was an early visitor and in her very tell it like it is said "V that is abuse, my H was like that with me". I could then never not know.

So Z you can still stand for your M for yourself. If H will make the changes then it is possible, but takes a long time and a lot of work.

V

[Zelda09]

Thanks, V. There is a part of me that wants H good points to be true and hopes he is not the soulless person I feel his actions show - but a guy that just had enough of me and once loved me. I always knew the driving thing was an act, deep down. Last July I wrote in my journal that I thought that and other things were building to a move for D.

I hate that part of me right now that still hopes. I want to stand for my M but I believe it will result in only more drawnout grief for me if I do. I broke the cycle, and like you said earlier, he is being rewarded and not punished. He did not want in this marriage. I am already embarrassed I begged him not to sleep with other people until the divorce papers final. I am embarrassed I beg him to talk to other people about this and to try to reflect.

I don't think that I actually want him. I don't think that I respect him, but I miss the idea of our M with all its history hopes and dreams. I miss feeling loved by someone I used to think was so special, whom I loved. The rejection is hurting and upsetting, I think I hope because I want the man who left me feeling discarded and kicked to pick me up and tell me it never really happened. I want to not feel worthless but that is in my hands now, not his power over me. I want to feel like I didn't cause him to feel this, that I wasn't at fault, but I no longer believe DR applies here. Our M just looked like work to him and he no longer needed me.

Maybe tomorrow I will contact him and ask if he is ready to sign the agreement and D papers.

[Ggrass]

The nicest thing anyone said to me is its ok to grieve.

Cry pitch a fit. What ever you need to get it out and process it all. Hey I still have an odd moment. It's been 14 month sep and a year nc. Almost to the day this week.

Do what you need, bear in mind there is no right or wrong answers. Just what you need.

[edz]

Yup, what GG said.

I did use councilling and boy did it help, not just on sitch but dealing with major depression that had been affecting me for years and hadnt been dealt with.

But I still use the empty room technique, stand walk, talk as if the WAS is there vent the why's the whats, what you did what they did, colour of the cushions. Let all of it out.

I found when it then came time to talk to w I had things in a reasonable state in my head and could talk without bursting into the emotional state I was in at the begining. I know our sitches are different Z but still raging at an empty room is so much better than making a pressure cooker in your mind.

Take it easy

Edz

[Zelda09]

Edz, I think I will try this. I hadn't heard of it.
Gg, I can't say I'm glad to know it still hurts, even when it's all laid out. It's like I keep thinking that with enough understanding of what happened or truth, the hurt will go away.

[Zelda09]

To contact him about signing, or not. That is the question.

It had been important to me that he initiated and did all of this.

Now, knowing what I do, it feels like too much to endure that he is married trying to get laid and happy as a clam with his outcome.

What would the waiting actually do for me? Give me the satisfaction that he finally carried out what he wanted?

[edz]

Hi Z

No idea if its a recognised idea, my (first - I had two over 4 months) councillor recommended it to me as a way of stopping myself bottling things up.

[Zelda09]

I had a happy evening tonight with a man who I met last year, who'd scheduled a lesson with me. We stood around chatting for a while after; light convo and when he asked about my H I said simply we are getting a D, and we stood around chatting some more about other things. He invited me to grab a bite. I liked him when I met him last year - good humor, energy. I remember thinking of the contrast between him and my depressive H at that party. We had a nice dinner, no drinks, and I was happy realizing what it felt like to not carry the weight of a conversation. To be having dinner with a man who was passionate and aggressively intelligent, almost arrogant, enthusiastic and happy. He reminded me of my best friend from college quite a bit. Professor/scientist. I enjoyed being out so much. We scheduled our next class and I had a nice text waiting when I was home. To be pursued is nice.

I finished a big work project yesterday and am looking forward to an easy day tomorrow. Lunch with a vendor, happy hour with a friend and then casual dinner at home with another friend and a guest she's hosting. It is raining men. Between the porn star, and tonight, and the other invites...do I get GAL points for being open to receiving the signals of the Universe?

I love my home, my cat and my dog. I'm cuddled up with them.

Life will be good without the creep formerly known as my H. Still deciding on whether or not to push for papers or let him handle on his timeline.

[Zelda09]

Just sent H an email asking him when he would be ready to sign financial agreement and dissolution.

I wanted him to drive this thing, but that was before he told me he'd like to be sleeping around and had no interest in thinking about things. Before I saw him without his mask and realized what end was up. It is ok for me to say I want my divorce. This is not a marriage worth standing for anymore. The fat lady will sing.

[Zephyr]

it is up to you how you handle the paperwork. If you need this completed to protect yourself financially, or if you need closure with a signature, then there you go.

i am glad you are going out and having a good time. That IS the point of life, something that many here have forgotten and need to get off of the couch and make happen. i am so excited for you the way you have started to focus on you again.

Go 'Team Zelda'!

[Vanilla]

Just sent H an email asking him when he would be ready to sign financial agreement and dissolution.

I wanted him to drive this thing, but that was before he told me he'd like to be sleeping around and had no interest in thinking about things. Before I saw him without his mask and realized what end was up. It is ok for me to say I want my divorce. This is not a marriage worth standing for anymore. The fat lady will sing.

You can say either that you do or you don't and it is ok. Here for you Z whatever you decide.

Have whatever aria you want.

(((((((((Z)))))))))))
V

[Zelda09]

V, zephyr, thanks so much for the support. I need it.

Every once in a while I start to doubt what I know. And think of my poor H that felt so unloved and wonder about the truth I thought I found when I started DR - about how jackal I'd been.

And then I try to imagine him calling and saying he has thought about things (hope!) and I imagine how id feel laying next to him at night and in public and trying to not be suspicious of everything. And I know this is irreparable. Like you said, V, I know what I know.

Hugs to you, as well. Sorry to hear about the snag with your IC.

[Vanilla]

Z

No one is perfect, of course, everyone has the odd Jackal moment. Maybe your poor H did feel unloved on occasion, but we grow up and know love is conditional as adults.

H had a choice to say, "Z right now I feel unloved". H had many choices Z.

People can change, your H can change if he wants to. His choice Z. There is a lot of work needed to do to grow and change, he might in time do that. Z it is your choice to stand for Z.

I dare say the IC sitch is for the best and I will end up with something much more suited to my needs. So I should reframe it to an opportunity.

Tons

V

[Zelda09]

No reply to the email I sent.
It is hard not to mind read in these situations.

[Vanilla]

Any update lovely one?

V

[Sotto]

Patience Z - interesting your H has not responded. My H isn't responding atm, and I have been practicing patience and not mind-reading for a while now. You're welcome to join the club.

What I would say at this stage is - don't expect your H to lead anything. If you want to file - go ahead and file. If you want to wait and see how this unfolds, do that. But have no expectations of your H to lead.

I just keep trying to take the long view - what will sit well with me in 2,3,5 years time.

Good luck to you....((Z))

[Zelda09]

No update. 3 line all biz email still ignored. I figure the email was a blow to H ego in two ways - pointing out he hadn't followed through on his urgent need to get finance agreement checked out, and the rejection piece, finality of it. No sad me, no hoping or leaving door cracked. So I am being ignored. Honestly surprised as bad as he looked like he wanted to sign that stuff last weekend.

So, last night an older friend told me that as strange as this all was compared to the guy he thought he knew, he felt deep down my H was dangerous.

For the last year I got very strange flashes every couple of weeks, an image of my H and I ,pleasantly approaching each other, starting to pass each other in a doorway and him suddenly going nuts on me, stabbing or beating me. This was a re-occurring thing. And I would think, Z, wth is that? Nothing like that EVER happened but it was vivid, always a doorway where he turned on me. I'd be wide awake 'seeing' this. And figured it was just a blip in my head the way sometimes other random thoughts or images come to mind. I am not sure anymore, maybe on some level I felt how he hated me.

[Zephyr]

WTH indeed! Keep yourself safe. If he wants to sit down and talk in the near future, maybe meet in a nice public place.

I wish this were over for you, but I have seen these situations as a great place to start a new. As with you, I love seeing the inner strength that starts to show itself from so many on this site. It was there all along I am certain, just needed a little spark to start process.

[Zelda09]

My best friend just told me that honestly (I guess I get these little gifts when I'm truly over it) that my H seemed to him and his wife to be acting very fake through our wedding. Distant removed, lukewarm, not at all like a man excited to be married, said the right words to the right people, smiled appropriately except when he didn't think the spotlight was on him. And I thought he was maybe just nervous. No, says friend. Think about when there were only four of us in the room and how blank he was when we all saw how messed up the cake was. He was just very far away.

What a fool I've been. I thought we were both happy. Because I was. And he smiled back, and I felt like he looked at me with love.

[Vanilla]

Z

Please leave the past in piece, it is gone. Rewriting it or reframing it will only help if it is positive.

Careful too with who you discuss your switch with, only 'safe' people.

And just one last observation, Zephrs comments are important, separating is the most dangerous time in an abusive R. Abusers can lash, so no provoking the angry bear!

And really your R ended unhappily but there was a part of happiness.

V

[Zelda09]

Hi, V. I will be careful during this time. Whether meds, abuse or psych breakdown, it doesn't matter, I can't trust. Zephyr is right.

It's important to me to not try to color or frame, but to take off rose colored glasses. I will say that he must have loved me. As best as he could.

Tonight I had a session with IC. We looked at why I never gave up or thought about exiting during some increasingly nasty behavior. Whether or not I had really pushed him over as he claimed, and she pointed out instances where he claimed being run over by all kinds of ppl...she did not think I am miserable or lacking empathy and we went through several examples in my life that validate and show the opposite. We looked at places my H did enthusiastically walk beside me - I did not drag him all the way. I felt relieved. I still can use work in experiencing life more thru my heart than my head, and we are starting to look at life goals readjusting. It was hard tonight to admit how utterly pointless I feel as a human being in this juncture.

[Zelda09]

Has anyone heard from Susana?

[Cadet]

Has anyone heard from Susana?

Using my special powers I can say this

Susana4
Last Online: 03/24/15 09:13 AM

So it appears she is MIA.

[Zelda09]

I hope she returned from her vacation to a H that missed her desperately, is living happily ever after and has no further need of this site after successfully DB!
Thanks, Cadet.

[Zelda09]

TIFU bc I got into it with him over email and deviated from business.

Today I discovered almost $400 of charges on phone bill from H that he didn't take care of when transferred. I wrote a polite and succinct email, his response was that since I asked him to be off plan, it was my problem. (He'd canceled utility services the day before I asked him to be off without the slightest word to me; I incurred those costs to set up, and that no where figured in his rationale or logic why I should also incur these costs.)

He tried to tell me how kind he was being sleeping on a nasty old mattress bc he 'had perfectly good furniture at home' and knew I didn't have a replacement set and it was a two way street, he really hoped I saw our split that way. (Home?! Dude, no.) I reminded him why he was on a mattress somewhere, due to his own rage and apathy, told him it most def was not a two way street, I just wanted him to pay his bill and come get his furniture, I'd had enough of his kindness. Told him exactly what I thought of his nice guy act for the world, in light of all he'd done, how pretty it was that he could say he came back to work on his M to all friends and family and then was kicked out. Bet he wasn't telling them he picked up his half mil settlement that day he suddenly gave up, it wasn't lost on me that all of his 'inabilities' disappeared, so forgive me if I don't believe it was my annoyance at your undone errand - and btw my cousin would have never let him stay if he'd been honest, and how he told me last Sun he'd rather sleep around than think on anything, thank you for your honesty, H, I finally don't care anymore. And when were we going to actually get those papers done?? I was all business until I let loose on that one.

Response was to tell me that I'd once said people can't be with each other when there's no respect. I lost respect for him years ago and he felt hated. And I could tell myself whatever else I wanted. That I could keep his furniture and he would get papers done.

I stopped myself before I tried to respond the way I wanted to. I'd said enough and he could have the last word. Still 180ing!

I guess whatever he needs to think or say to look in the mirror. Maybe in the past I would have come back to let him know how much I did love him and respect him and apologize I'd made him feel that. I am so bitter and wanted to tell him maybe he doesn't respect himself and hates himself, and that's why he runs from his own life repeatedly. That I recognized the deflection in his response. Yes, H, of course you are justified.

I find it so odd he made reference to having furniture at home. Not 'your house' or 'the house.'

So! Verdict - is it a game he knows he's playing, or does he actually just feel sorry for himself, unloved and oh how he tried to work on our M?

[Vanilla]

Oh yes. both, it's a manipulation to redo the loop and he feels sorry for himself.

I just love the word try.

Can you sell the furniture he thinks is his to get the cash, do you need it and is it worth $400?

V

[Zelda09]

V, I believe I am getting the better end of the deal. The furniture, I will eventually want to replace for obvious reasons, but I'm too practical to worry about it right now.

It's been hard not to send the response I wanted. To tell him that yes, it is clearly my heart was full of contempt and hatred, our words and actions show that. I no longer feel sorry for you husband.

Today, I am feeling grateful that I no longer am having trouble sleeping. That the grief I feel is not for wanting him back anymore. I am feeling my joy and humor return a bit more each day, and I am really saying how emotionally beat down I was. I know that my posts here don't reflect a lot of joy or humor, but I am laughing more. One of my best girlfriends told me last night how nice it was to see me she had missed for so long finally returning, that it was actually conversation between her and the other girls how different I had become with my husband.

It didn't hurt it last night the cable guy came over, and his 20s, very cute, and before he left told me that he would like to come back and ask me out on a date some day. And my new friend that I'd given a lesson to, he seems to like me very much. He's been texting for no apparent reason. The world does not seem as bleak as I imagined, and Ira I am remembering who I am and how much I have to offer.

Now I just have to clean my house and start going after my life goals again. I didn't realize how completely depressed I was until a day ago when I felt just a little bit happy, randomly. I think it was first during separation last year that I felt a little bit of joy of living return. Husband came home soon after. And then I was all consumed in our relationship again.

[Zelda09]

Today was a mess. H sent me contact info for a paralegal he's hired to handle our stuff and told me what portion I'd have to pay, knowing full well this was not our agreement. He agreed I wouldn't pay a cent toward this.

And then he started twisting today. Text msgs where he pinged at me from different directions in no particular order every time I asserted I would not pay: told me not to get in my own way... he's not trying to hurt me... I legally have to pay this part... I never let him lead...he's tired of trying to explain my fears to me...and the more I stood strong, the more he deflected. Last text was, 'See, it still feels like we're married.'

On that one, I just called the woman and explained the situation; No Z, you don't have to pay any of this, legally, that's not true, let me call him - she called him, called me back and said he'd agreed to handle the fees, all of them. So I will go sign Monday.

You know what? He knew I wouldn't budge on that point and threw it in to stall and mess with me. Less than $100 he wanted me to pay. Had no problem agreeing to it when his own hire talked to him.

When I sent him an email stating that I'd heard from her he was paying and I was signing next week - he wrote back something like it was me who wants this divorce bc I don't feel safe around him.

I spelled it out, told him he still had room to turn this around if he wanted to finally work on himself instead of blame, and we could talk about things if he had the slightest inclination, but last I'd heard - he didn't want to be here, wanted to be in other beds and couldn't tell me that kind of violence wouldn't happen again to me. Hey, if he'd reconsidered those points, let me know. I'd finally realized I wanted to spend my life with someone who didn't make me feel like I was never good enough and played mind games with me and that's why I wasn't trying to chase him any longer, no interest in laying myself out like a doormat and going to therapy sessions where he kept telling them all the changes I needed to make to be a more gentle partner for him and not interested in himself. I was here and intended to hold my vows until we were legally divorced, despite his gray area interpretation. I told him thanks for all the free psychoanalysis he'd given me in the past, telling me what I really believed and how I was lying to myself - and offered my own about where I thought his rage and outbursts came from, what he was running from and really screaming at. How he knew exactly what he was doing when one hour after I told him I wanted kids and intended to stand for my marriage, he put his ring on.

I know some letters are better unsent, but man I feel better. Does it move me closer to a goal? NO. I no longer have a goal here, I don't care anymore. Let it be a swift D or let him figure out how to save his M. I don't care.

I see you, H. STBX. Let's get that fat lady singing, quit jerking me around. Z is no longer playing your poor me games and telling you how much she loves you and how we can work it out! Ball is in your court if you are messing with me to slow this down, you can do something about it, but it'll be you, this isn't going to be the same Z humoring your twists and turns and begging you to see my side bc I believe in love.

I no longer desire him and this is the most fantastic feeling ever. The present feelings of him are starting to merge into the past and it is feeling more and more cohesive. I've downgraded him from a Mr. Ripley to a guy that never moved out of adolescent stage and so learned to manipulate to get along.

There are no victims - I loved him and wanted to fix it all, I could get him to behave kindly and act rationally (tho I never could convince my father) and was happy to play games and endure so many completely unjust fights if I meant I got to feel his love, especially after he ripped me up. I didn't want to see how toxic this was, I wanted him at any cost because he was beautiful, could also tell me exactly what I wanted to hear, and when the sun was shining it was like I'd never been happier.

It was real to me, H. Maybe at times it was to you, too. But I got something outta my pain, and I'm going to be stronger now and this isn't the reality I want anymore.

[Zephyr]

I am so glad for you to be moving towards a happy Zelda!!! It is not what we thought when we got married, but just think of how wonderful lirwbcan be with a confident independent Zelda who can be with someone if she chooses, who will actually cherish her and treat her with respect. Pretty exciting times despite all of the $hit that has been swirling around you.

[Zelda09]

Thanks, Zephyr! I am definitely looking forward to having this done and resolved and truly in the past.

[Mozza]

Zelda09 - Your resident Simon Cowell here!

Stop engaging your H. It's his game. You think you're getting something out of sharing your thoughts, but you're losing much more. You're giving him a hold on you. You're telling him what you care about, where he can hurt you. You secretly want him to validate your version. He will never do that. Every time you give him a line, you feed the beast. He's like an online troll. No, you're not sharing without a care for his response. You care very much and that's where he gets you. Try silence for a while. Try ignoring all of it. See how YOU take control back of the conversation. He will push your buttons, he's an artist at it. He says you want this D? Silence. He says you never loved him? Silence. He says you're badmouthing him to his friends? Silence. He wants to sleep around? Silence. Think of every scenario, every button he could push to prepare to respond with silence. Only business. Don't even tell him that you'll be stronger, etc. You've stated all of this already and now you're just hurting yourself by giving him a handle on you.

You're moving on and I see much more strength in you in the last few weeks. In fact, I really like the part where you say you no longer desire him. This is your future. Believe me, the desire we men feel for a WW in an A is just unbearable - we are wired to be very territorial, more so than women. Yet, I'm over it now and my desire is shifting to other women. Yours will too. Look at this cute cable guy (I admire his gall!) or the porn star. A man will sweep you off your feet. Maybe a fling. Maybe something serious right away. But your H will very soon be a memory and you will really not care what he does or thinks.

[Zelda09]

Hiya Mozza,

Thanks for stopping by. I did have the realization today, that I had to ask myself what the point of telling him all of this really was. Other than venting, or saying what had been on my mind for a while, did I really think he was going to come back and say you know what Z? You're right! I AM a complete and utter her ahole!

So we agree then. I need to go sign my papers on Monday and not say a word to him about anything ever again. When he comes to pick up the rest of his stuff, greet him like the neighbor four doors down let him load, and do not say a word. The day the divorce is final. Not a word.

[Zelda09]

Switching gears. I need to get my head focused again. Start putting some more work and on my side business. I'm start cleaning my house again. Working out more. I have done okay on the social GAL but I need to find myself discipline again. Besides that, I should really spend some more time figuring out what makes me happy. And start taking care of myself.

[Zelda09]

Oh wow. I just had the most wonderful phone call. A kid I used to coach told me he received a 200k scholarship for the rest of his science studies. Called to thank me for the influence I've had in his life, for believing in him, that hard work really does pay off. He was so excited, telling me what the lessons the sport taught him when he was fifteen, how his life started to change at those practices. How I was one of the first people he called tonight.

I matter.
I made a difference to this wonderful young man.

I matter, i hung up the phone and am crying thinking this. It has felt like anything but lately.

So there are other reasons to find joy and purpose, our lives reach beyond the marital home.

[Mozza]

Holy Molly! What a phone call! What a young gentleman too for taking the time. How many people get such a phone call in their life? You really do make a difference. This young man will still remember you when he'll be mature and old. Congratulations.

Seriously, you're showered with attention, desire and gratitude. Keep it in mind as you move on, as you figure out what makes you happy. On my thread, you'll see that I'm working on it too and having so much fun that I wouldn't even want my WW to come back before I'm done. Grant yourself permission. It's exhilarating.

[Vanilla]

Z

I would love you to record that conversation in a diary or gratitude book somewhere. To start yourself a compliments file.

I have an abuse diary, wouldn't it be great to have a gratitude one too. Going to do that right away myself, find a lovely notebook and start.

Inspirational

V

[Ggrass]

What mozza said! 1,000000000000 times over.

[Zelda09]

Thanks, all.
Having a rough one.
At party today and got news my grandmother passed. It was expected.
Also that I have not been invited to a mutual friend's engagement party and STBX has been. She is the only friend that seems to be in his corner, and this feels painful to me. I wish it didn't. So many of our friends will be there. Thus wasn't expected.

[Vanilla]

Condolences, expected or not that's tough.

It's not a proper party without Z, cheeeeeese and someone to say mooooose.

So nothing wonderful missed then, especially from hostess with the leastess.

(((((Hugs))))))

V

[Zelda09]

I'm going to sound nuts. But this mutual friend, this was the one Id thought something was so strange during piecing, I felt shed excluded me needlessly a couple of times. I felt like I was going crazy then. H said he just needed to start developing his own friends and I think he was turning her to his side the whole time he was supposed to be about us. It makes me nauseous but I wasn't imagining things.

[Vanilla]

A POW?

V

[Zelda09]

I doubt it...but in the sense that sympathy and 'understanding' is something my H craves more than anything, definitely. She's getting married after all so I doubt POW in that sense, but my H has a great affinity for going after other women EA style. I'll never forget a friend calling me last year to say she didn't want to be in middle of marriage; sheer volume of texts, never flirty, just made her uncomfortable.

I sign papers on Monday. I no longer want him and his issues. I could never trust him again or not see him as using me during 'piecing' - this is the reality I need to focus on, not his friendships or motivations.

[Zelda09]

This is a letter I wrote him in 2010 after I broke up with him for throwing things at me. He acted like he was just fine with it, and I eventually bridged our way back together. What a moron I've been. I felt this way five years ago.
------

H,

One of the most attractive things about you was your determination to be rational, calm, considerate and a better human being, to want more than just average understanding or outlook on your life. In some ways, you are more spiritual and kind than people that go to church and claim all the high morals. In so many ways, you've treated me better than anyone ever has.

I told you many times you were one of the best people I had ever known.

You said tonight "if I cared, I should have brought concerns up earlier."

Because you are who you are at the core, I justified so many little behaviors thinking it was my fault for picking the wrong time, not understanding your needs, that you said you didn't know how to talk about things...that we hadn't learned a healthy way to have hard discussions.

I am sorry I pushed the subject of marriage and pushed you away. I'm sorry I didn't give weight to what you were going through this last week and didn't let the thing about the promise go. I'm sorry that I never asked your side of things, how you were feeling before I drew that line and broke up with you. When you threw those things at me, it scared the hell out of me, that you could do that for any reason and I went numb. I didn't want to ask for an apology that night, promises that it would never happen again, or that you would seek counseling.

Do I regret the knee-jerk reaction? Of course, there was hope to turn it around and I shut down. Angry because you didn't apologize, numb and I figured you had grown to hate me if you could do that.

Below are things you've done and said since we dated that are recognized as the beginnings of abusive behavior, verbally and emotionally. I've excused all for one reason or another, and just tried to build from whatever episode we had. I hope you can look at it honestly and address it - for yourself, the next woman you love who makes you angry, or if you have any hope for us.

I still love you, and I still have hope that we can build out of this. We had something rare, and wonderful. It's up to you. Make your world.
______________________________

Shoved off the dock July 4th...
Accused me of cheating/coming on to someone else

Left me in hotel at _, stormed off

Grabbed arm in _

Silent treatment way home from that trip bc I brought up professional future, accused me of wanting to break up

Screaming "you stupid f'ing b****" over and over again night I jumped in lake to swim

Walking away, leaving, driving off when upset...

Continued to use temper as intimidation, punching things in front of me when discussion was uncomfortable or too much

Angry on Easter bc of the way you thought discussion on budget was turning, acted defensive, drove me home

Calling me crazy, stupid, idiot during fights about marriage, cleaning, or others, telling me there was something wrong with me

Saying "screw you W" in height of arguments

Recently, yelling at me to get my sh*t together when crying

Yelling "shut up, moron, f you, shut the f up" before turning around to throw laundry basket at me.

[Zelda09]

I sign D papers in a few hours.
Just trying to read the letter above, knowing it couldn't have ended any better, I didn't cause this.

[HeavyD]

I am so sorry - God bless you

[Zephyr]

Z,

You are a strong, awesome woman, maybe not perfect ;), but awesome nontheless.

I wish this were not happening for you. You will get through this and come out on top.

Z

[Wonka]

(((Z))))

What a painful decision it had to be for you. You need to do what is best for Zelda.


Edit - Please start a new thread - Cadet

[Zelda09]

And I signed. Felt outside of body. H was P, I was defendant. On his paperwork, he wrote "trying to walk away." V, you like that use of 'try?'

I guess we have a hearing in a month. I could go to that. I could not. I could protest and make him hire an attny to drag it out but I think I better just consider this the first day of my new life.

I love that it was a $69 service in the front of a used battery shop. Such a nice contrast to the days a couple years ago that Id worked so hard to plan and save for..

Enough. I don't know what a new thread would say. I have another going on the self-improvement side, figure I'll leave it there.

[gan]

((((((((((Zelda))))))))))

Be kind to yourself, lady.

[Zelda09]

There is one thing that sticks with me today. Although hed filled out all the paperwork to start the filing - he had asked that I be the ones to sign the docs first. Why? He was already tgere the first time and could have easily signed on his lines. Sickest game of chicken?

[Zelda09]

New thread. Are we there yet? Yeah.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2562107&#Post2562107