danigirlbc - updating

[Maybell]

Dani, I'm glad you're getting great input here. I hope it's been helpful. I haven't checked in in a few days but I wanted to say hi and that you still have my sympathy and support. Please let us know how you're doing, no matter what, ok?

[Danigirl]

Hi Sandi and Vanilla, it was a busy Easter weekend here, and I am so thankful to have my parents back in town!

Sandi, it's crazy how many similarities our H's have. Even the part about when you try to converse, and he takes 5 minutes to respond (doesn't drive me as crazy as it used to).

I'm doing ok. We had dinner at my sister's last night with my parents. I had a couple drinks and it went pretty well. My family is pretty awesome. I did tell my parents I wanted to come over this morning to talk.

This morning I got ready, and then phoned over, and as soon as I had my dad on the phone, I could feel the emotions all bubbling to the surface. Took all I had to hold back the tears on the short drive over.

As per my usual, as soon as I had mom in front of me, I broke.

They were surprised, but not. My mom knows how I've felt over the years. Of course they are on my side, and reiterated how I had done so much, taken on so much on my own, raising 2 extra boys, one with a disability. How I've struggled for years with the unhappiness, but kept going back saying 'he loves me, he doesn't abuse me, I can be content here'.

My mom did say she had mentioned to my dad that H didn't look happy last night.

I said that I feel that as torn as I am, it's really just a matter of time. Since I had that initial talk with him, and then the second over a week ago now, he hasn't made one move towards improving anything.

I feel like I want to yell at him, tell him 'why aren't you fighting for this, why aren't you doing a, b & c so that I won't have to leave!' But I know, I can't do this for him. I need him to show me his commitment to improving things.

As for the kids living with me, the 2 boys 24, 20 and the one daughter, 14, are with us (all his bio kids) My older daughter lives with her dad (but we have a good relationship) and my other son lives on his own.

I spoke to the eldest and advised that 'we' were going through a hard time, so if we seemed off, that was why. He responded with 'you seemed happy last night'. Boy, am I good at hiding things. Or, the kids are so entrenched in themselves they don't notice. I think the latter is the case.

I know how he is hurting and want so much to hug him. But I don't, for fear he will cling to that. I don't want to feel guilty for feeling how I do. And I know he can't help how he is, mentally. I just wish he would finally push himself beyond his comfort zone to get help.

Things are changing for me this week - I'm doing a 4 month secondment in another position. It's more pay, but also shift work, so I won't see him as much.

I've also 'forced' him to go on a camping trip. His brother invited us to some property they have. I told the eldest, and said he should book the time off...I knew he would love to go.

When we mentioned it to H, he said "I didn't say I was going" to which I asked why, and so did S. H finally said maybe he would go and just take S24 cause he'd never done anything with him before. So they finalized it yesterday, and they are going.

If I hadn't gone behind his back and told S about it and to book off time, H wouldn't have gone because I can't go (I'm working).

I wonder though, how long do I wait for him to make an effort? To move out of the comfort zone and make the commitment? This 'limbo' is so difficult. Not knowing what to say to him when we are at home.

I will try to get back to my exercising, and enjoy learning at my new position. I will focus on my daughters and making time for them (the boys don't really want that time much anymore).

Thank you so much for sharing your stories!

I spent time last night reading yours, Sandi (the other night was more of Vanilla).

Maybe you could save me some time and tell me what made you finally make that decision to stay?

Thanks for checking in, and even if I'm not posting, I'm reading. (Sometimes hard at home to get computer/typing time)

I feel blessed to have met you!

Dani

[Zues126]

Dani,

From a H that was left, I am really just curious about a few things. I'm not attacking or judging at all. The word curious is very accurate.

If you decide to leave your M...what do you expect in your future? Do you feel you'd be better off alone than with this person, and that being alone would be better than dealing with an H that is so disappointing? Or do you expect to meet a guy that is better somehow, where these problems don't come up, and it is so amazing that it makes up for the history and the family together and lasts the rest of your lives?

It sounds like I'm trying to make a point, I'm not. I'm wording it that strongly because I know you have thought these very compelling thoughts before, so there must be even more compelling thoughts on the side of exiting for you to be leaning that way. Can you elaborate on what those are so we can really get it? What do you tell yourself to combat the "pro-marriage" thoughts that linger like those above?

Your journey and I hope you get through whatever the future holds, but I think I'd gain from your feedback so if you feel up to sharing I would appreciate it. Thanks Dani, and stay strong.

[Danigirl]

Hi Zues, I only have time for a quick response. I've carefully considered your question, and honestly, the thought of meeting someone else to be with is far far back in my mind. The stress of the life I lead is catching up with me.

I'm a very easy going person, not too much gets to me. I'm well liked in both my personal and professional life. I love people, love helping others...but when the 'other' has no ability to help themselves, and in the process are draining you of your vitality and enjoyment of life, it's hard to see a future there.

Time for work, have a great day.

Dani

[Danigirl]

Maybell, just saw your post now! Thank you so much for checking in. It's amazing how good it feels to have people caring about what's going on with me! Last week was feeling very alone - all I wanted was a hug, and had the garbage man been available I would have forced a hug on him.

My parents returned yesterday and I'm so thankful.

I had 5 days off from work, and it was awkward being home with H. I didn't have plans, and was letting myself be 'down'. We had family plans on Sunday, which was great, and H had work yesterday, so my D and I went to a friends (her daughter is same age as D) and had a nice visit.

Tonight I'm going to take the dog for a walk or do the park after dinner. I just can't sit in in the evening with H and S sitting around.

Still up and down with my confusion. As I mentioned above, I wish I could shake him, but doing a lot of reading on DB is reinforcing that I can't help him, HE has to help him. I've made suggestions, offered support, etc for YEARS and still he hasn't made one move to improve his mental health.

Thankful it's spring, and the sun is shining outside - that always makes me smile :-)

[Vanilla]

Dani

Change takes a long time to take place. More than a few days, more than a few months, most of our unhappiness is within us and leaving an R or M really will not resolve that. If you are to stand for your M then the resolution is for you as a life long journey.

Each of us resolves our unhappiness within ourselves and at our own pace. Your H will move at a difference pace and frame to you. Remember in many ways you have a head start on your H, you have been aware for the longest time.

H will not do a b or c just because you want him to or think it's best, he will do x, y and d because that is what he wants. That is how it must be, your H has to become who he wishes to be in his own time. Nothing you can do will change that.

Frankly that's not your job, your job is you, to build you, to become the best and strongest Dani that you can be. H will change as he wishes to in response. There are many changes that I would like to see in my H but so far no indication that my H wanted or saw the need for change. only by changing myself have I changed my sitch, not through any change of H.

This will take a long time, it is not instant or a quick fix. From my experience if you are being drained by another as you say you have been by your H (as I was by my H) then it is because we are affected by them and not for ourselves.

This was a very hard lesson for me to learn and the first goal I made was to detach, to let my H fall, follow his own path, not to enable H as that causes his behaviour to continue. It lets the interaction I dislike continue for longer, ironically what I did made my sitch worse not better. In the end detaching made my life easier, me less reactive, and ultimately allowed the next step of GAL. It freed me from H draining demands.

Let's start with plans and goals, if not having them is a downer that would look to me to be a great place to start. There are some good discussions about goals on Errods current thread, you can read how that has made an enormous difference to him. It is quite astounding, you could also look at Joe and his journey into detachment. These are LBS who learned to detach.

So what are your goals? How are you going to get there?

You can choose to stick with what you can do, how you will know and measure it. There are threads here on goal setting. Dani like the rest of us DBers you will find lots of work to do on you. Let H do his journey and observe.

Blessings and great sleep

V

[sandi2]

Maybe you could save me some time and tell me what made you finally make that decision to stay?

I had started to see a few little things in OM, but turned a blind eye b/c I wanted to believe in the fantasy. By the time I found my way to the DB board, I was ready for some type of guidance. In reading my story you may have noticed at the first how I continued to ask people to talk to me straight. I knew I was a big, hot mess. However, I was very confused and couldn't seem to make up my mind.

I had some great people posting to me, but there were two ladies who helped me the most. It was as if they were helping me find my own moral compass again. Someone once told me that I was a "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not" person. I suppose that is what it boiled down to for me. I made a decision based on what I believed was the right thing to do. I could not base it on my feelings, b/c they were fickle. I couldn't base my decision on my H, b/c he has been the same all these years....and he's not going to change into the man I wanted him to be.

I had found a book on line (you probably read that part in my thread), and it made a such an impact on me. It may not affect anyone else the way it did me, but a lot had to do with the timing in my stitch. My adult D had discovered the communication between OM and myself. My H had also found out about OM, and things had pretty much hit the fan. Then I was given information from wise DB board members, and then I read that book, which was kind of the icing on the cake in helping me make a final decision. However, the way it all came about for me doesn't mean it would be the same for another person.

Dani, I am going to say something that will probably hit hard, but I think it's necessary. If anyone can sympathize and understand how badly you want to see your H make some effort......I do. However, I believe you cannot make your decision on hopes he will change and become the man you want him to be.

It sounds like he definitely has issues that should be addressed, but I don't think you can talk him into anything. For sure, you can't talk him into changing for the better. It sounds as if he needs medication and therapy, but you still cannot base your decision on his efforts......or lack of efforts.

Before I even made a decision to stay in the M, do you know what my H had the nerve to tell me? He wanted to see me putting 100% effort into our M. Me!! I was the only one who ever put an ounce of effort in making our MR better. I never saw him do anything! But, that was my opinion. I'm sure he saw it quite differently.

At the time, and for a long time after I ended my A, it took all my energy just to be willing to be willing. Know what I mean? I was too low to even be encouraged. I had such a negative attitude about him, until I was in constant misery. The only thing I asked of him was to go with me to MC, and he refused. I knew then, he would do no more than he ever had......b/c that is the type of person he is, and I can't do anything about it.

You and I can read threads from the LBH'S on the board, and see now hard they work to improve themselves and their lives........and trying so hard to get their WAW back. It is hard to accept the fact our H's will not do that for us.....or for themselves. Of course, your H is a lot younger than mine, but even if mine were twenty years younger......I think he would be the same as now.

So, the way I see it, you have to make your decision based on what you are willing to accept, and how much you are willing to do. You can always hope for better, but can you accept him the way he is right now......if you knew he would never get any better? Could you make yourself happy in this M, if he never changed? And what if he gets worse? Are you willing to bear the burden of his son and take responsibility for managing the home, family, and M, while he is content to let you carry his part?

If your A did not shake him up enough to try harder, what on earth would it take?
I do sincerely believe if he were to get the right kind of help, he would have a better mindset. Unfortunately, men feel like we are nagging whenever we say the same thing twice, so it may take an outsider to influence him to go to the doctor.

At the moment, his mental health needs to be high priority. Are you affiliated with a church or synagogue? Would he listen to a spiritual advisor? Does he have a relative who has influence with him? It doesn't sound as if the adult children took what you said seriously enough. IMHO, somebody needs to be alerted to the severity of his depression. Out type guys make it challenging as it is, but mix long term depression in the batch.....and it's enough to cause you to want to give up.

[Danigirl]

You ladies have sure made some comments that are making me think. What is my ultimate goal? When I came here, it was to take one last effort to see if my marriage could be saved.

I do realize I can’t change him. Lord knows I’ve tried – not to change him myself, but to encourage him to make changes for his own benefit (and ultimately the benefit of ‘us’ and our family).

Forgive me if it seems like I’m rambling or repeating, I’m trying to go over things in my head.

Vanilla spoke about making myself the best I can be. Over the years I have done various rounds of counselling, I lost weight, started exercising regularly. I went out with friends for coffee, dancing, dinner, movies. I went to school to become a Hypnotherapist. 10 years ago I attended Hypnotherapy myself, and after a few sessions, I was calmer, more relaxed and easy going, and approached life that way. During this time I encouraged him. I encouraged his guitar playing and song writing and recording. I encouraged his writing a book. I encouraged the websites he was creating and the amazing ideas behind it. He completed none of them (except the websites that were for someone else).

He has encouraged me in the changes I’ve made, and said he was proud of me, and wanted to do those things for himself. Again, he didn’t really make many changes, and always slipped back to his ‘normal’ self.

I feel I am doing my best to be my best self. Last night I went out and dug up my dandelion garden. I’m making plans to hire someone to pull out a bush and lay weed prevention fabric down so I can put river rock in the garden. H has said over and over he wants to do it, why waste the money, etc. However *I* finally want it done, so I just won’t discuss it with him. He’ll be upset – probably at himself for leaving it so long that I went and hired someone. I want to paint the front porch, and the fence. Tired of waiting for him, so I will go and select the paint, and get started on my own. I’m sure he will be upset, and then either a) join in or b) retreat to the house and be depressed and upset (because he was going to do it).

So as much as I can make myself the best I can be, I should detach – however I’m not sure how to do that, and still function as a family. We’ve made plans for camping with my sisters family on the August long weekend (his response was, ‘how will we get there, we don’t have a vehicle that can carry all the stuff, we need to buy more things, etc etc’) and also with friends at the end of August (his response was ‘they have younger kids who are annoying, don’t want to have to deal with them’ plus same excuses as above) How do I move ahead with these plans?

Yes, I am affected by H’s behavior and responses to things. I do continue living, however in a home where everyone hangs out in the kitchen/family room area most of the time, he’s right there.

Yes, I can GAL more, however that also means leaving behind my 14yo daughter at home, and I like being with the boys (adults) and her. Being 14, she doesn’t really want to go out with mom for walks, drives, shopping etc (she uses her big sister for those things). So to detach, means detaching from the family, which is harder to swallow.

Sandi commented:
So, the way I see it, you have to make your decision based on what you are willing to accept, and how much you are willing to do. You can always hope for better, but can you accept him the way he is right now......if you knew he would never get any better? Could you make yourself happy in this M, if he never changed? And what if he gets worse? Are you willing to bear the burden of his son and take responsibility for managing the home, family, and M, while he is content to let you carry his part?

Can I accept him the way he is. I guess my answer is No. There are certain things I understand and accept. However, not seeing a dentist (and ultimately never kissing or being intimate again in my life), as well as not protecting me and the family with life insurance, how does one just accept that?

If something were to happen to him, I would lose the house. I can’t afford the mtg payments on my salary, and nor can I afford to rent a place that will house myself and 2 other adults and a teen. Dealing with a death would be hard enough without the rest of it all.

I can be happy, however I am deeply affected by people’s energy, especially his. I can tell when he’s off, even though he’s a great actor and others wouldn’t see the difference. I ‘feel’ it, it penetrates me.

Since our second talk, he hasn’t continued with his tidying up when he gets home, or being happy or energetic. However, he is playing a phone game (draw something) that the kids all started playing again (it’s pretty funny to see).

Detaching will NOT change him. I know him too well, better than he’d care to admit. Detaching will make him withdraw, possibly become worse in depression. This will affect how he is with the kids, and I don’t want to affect that.

Most of the time I can continue on with life, however I’m not sure how to live in the same house with him, and detach, and feel I could live a happier life alone with my daughter (again, other D lives with her Dad, S lives on his own) and he lives with the 2 S’s.

To be honest, he seems more detached. We are civil and friendly, however not really talking much. (who knows, maybe he discovered DB and is doing that! But I’d hate that he would recognize my screen name, should have rethought that one).


I have my next counselling apt next week – where she wants to delve into my emotions of hurt, betrayal, etc that have built up over the years, should be fun (NOT).

Question – would DB or DR be most appropriate for me to read based on my situation?

Once again, I thank you for your kindness, and for your valuable time in helping me during this trying time. This is such a loving, caring place and am so happy I found it all those years ago.

Dani

PS Regarding his mental health. NO ONE knows about most of his issues except my family, who I disclose to. He would be horrified knowing that I've told them all. Nor are we religiously affiliated. He will talk to no one, except me. I can't even imagine it, as much as I wish he would talk to his brothers that way, his family has a history of talking around things, and never talking about them.

[Maybell]

Hey, lady, I just want to say I'm so impressed with your character and the lengths you're going to in tackling your situation. I wish I could hug you.

DB and DR are quite similar, DR is the newer edition and includes a chapter on the depressed spouse.

BEST to you.

[Underdog]

Hi Dani,

Your thread resonates with me because I was the one who had an EA and who almost walked out and didn't, only to have my H walk out on me 5 months later. That being said, I wish I had found this place when it might have made a difference.

As a general rule, I'm in favor of doing everything that is humanly possible to save a marriage. BUT not at the expense of either party losing their soul for the long term. I realize that it opens up a barrel of monkeys that are confusing and go against what we are taught to do.

I'm certainly not going to steer you in the direction of abandoning ship, because you really haven't done much on your own to turn things around. Or at the very least, what you have done hasn't worked so far, and you're miserable. Until I saw that you are in Canada, I almost thought you were one of my BFF's back home. She has many things in common with you in regards to your spouses, and that's a tough thing.

I would definitely advise you to read DR. It's got a more concrete structure to make a plan. And you should make a plan. What I would advise is for you to journal. Experiment and jot down results. Your EA didn't wake him up, and nagging isn't working either. (It didn't work for me either.)

Don't be surprised if the EA being in the open becomes a catalyst for him to shut down further and to erect walls of indifference. This is the exact point in my marital demise where I wish I had THIS tool - the book and this forum. I might have been able to perform CPR on our marriage instead of taking my proverbial hammer and beating him to death with it. I was righteous in my anger at his shutting down, and I let him know it. I think he just saw a big black pit of despair, and probably felt there was nothing he could do to change things. It was an awful and dark period in my life, and I made choices that would set up a cataclysmic set of events to follow. The good news is that you don't have to do that.

Like you, I had horrible post-partum depression. Reading the other folks here makes me wonder if this isn't some sort of trigger? I haven't suffered from depression my whole life, but I suffer from anxiety issues that escalate or de-escalate based on triggers and stressors. So I understand.

That understanding also leads me to want to say that you really need to heal yourself first before you expect changes in your M. I see lots of similarities between us, as well as these other strong willed women posters. The problem isn't what you want, but I daresay that it's how you go about getting what you want. First recent example:

H has said over and over he wants to do it, why waste the money, etc. However *I* finally want it done, so I just won’t discuss it with him. He’ll be upset – probably at himself for leaving it so long that I went and hired someone.

Well... from where I sit, and after having read your posts up until now, is it safe to assume that your H has fears that center on finances? Don't think about this too much - just answer it yes or no. Taking the reins to get what you want probably isn't going to make him feel respected by you. I DO understand that you haven't been able to get him off his ass and do what he says he wants to do. I'd venture to say that it's a passive aggressive maneuver on his part to get his way.

I'm not going to go into why he might be the way he is like I would be for Maybell... because it's you who wants out. Therefore, I'd rather ask you to do some exercises in respectful communications, instilling mutual respect between the two of you, and figuring out where your baggage is tripping you up. There are typically reasons why people engage in passive aggressive tactics. The one thing that makes them moreso is to come out on the offensive.

Tell me more about resentment and respect (or lack thereof) between you.

Which brings me to this:

Can I accept him the way he is. I guess my answer is No. There are certain things I understand and accept. However, not seeing a dentist (and ultimately never kissing or being intimate again in my life), as well as not protecting me and the family with life insurance, how does one just accept that?

I have to agree with you, Dani. (My abovementioned BFF also has the oral hygiene issue with her H, and it's been tragic to watch her try to get what she wants. His teeth are rotting, his breath is foul, and they haven't kissed in 20 years beyond a peck.) Did his oral hygiene habits do a 180 after you got married? And the insurance issue kind of hits me from another angle. My former boss was also one who didn't believe in it. Why? Because his dad said it was a waste of money. It was baggage he carried forth from his childhood. Perhaps your H hasn't examined if his belief system needs an overhaul. Perhaps if he isn't willing to make changes so that you can be happy TOGETHER, you might have to abandon ship. Down the road. I'd personally like to see you put 110% of your effort into healing your own wounds. I can see a few of them from here, but I'd love your thoughts on why you are afraid to let go of the reins of control.

One final comment because it goes back to my thought of a wall going up and him shutting down:

To be honest, he seems more detached. We are civil and friendly, however not really talking much. (who knows, maybe he discovered DB and is doing that!

This is a hallmark of shutting down in a P-A personality type. They can't handle conflict, Dani. They know it exists, but don't possess the skill set to sort through it and resolve it. So they shut down. Completely. I will certainly try to help you with some basic skills to open that door, but it again hinges on your efforts to get back your own spiritual health and to work on some of your own fears that are creating conflict as well.

Make sense?

Betsey