I always read your posts and while I may not always agree, you are extremely thorough and pensive in your postings. I'm feeling rather reflective today so I'll give my 2 cents which may really only be worth a Chuckie Cheese token:-)
I tend to side with Cadet, Bug, and Raliced (loved your post). I don't consider myself partcularly conservative or religious. However, whenever I see the term "dating and married"....well, I laugh. Can't help it. Those 2 seem diametrically opposed to me. Theoretically I understand what the pro daters are saying. I read many threads where 2 months after BD, posters are "excited" about dating or " ready" to meet someone. Far be it from me to be the moral barometer ( I have my own issues), however, if you are truly "ready" to date and meet someone, then finish your biz to make yourself "actually" available. Because to this chickadee, a married person (even if it's just legally) is far from truly available.
IMHO, we live in a culture where we make things morally *work for us* in our respective scenarios. Again, it's not my place to judge. However, as a parent, I cannot look my sons or daughters in the eyes and say, "Your Dad broke our vows with another woman, so I'll date while married too." Not for a reaction, because I doubt he would have cared, BUT I did care. No offense to anyone, but some folks can't be alone. Why? Myriad of reasons. I'm not desperate (not saying anyone is here) although I can completely relate to wanting to be wanted and desired. However, at this juncture, I don't have the capacity to reciprocate on a deep level. I had friends saying, "you need to get out there and meet someone good!" And that's fine. I just felt compelled to finish my biz if I was pursuing that path. Why? What kind of example would I be setting for my sons? My daughter? Trying to get in another R while still legally in a R? Again, to each his own and this is simply my perspective.
Sadly, I'm not *excited* about dating although I'm excited about life. I realize we all heal differently, and I can honestly say I have nothing in the tank for a R. However, things have a way of turning around in life. I'm sure I will feel more *ready* at some point.
Wishing you the best in whatever you decide :-)
Last edited by Georgiabelle; 04/02/1503:36 PM.
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
I would bet that there are 30 other articles debating against dating while still married. No where in that blurb you just posted discusses dating while still legally married. And if you would see the last line: "after a divorce"....that is the key right there.
The main thing is to be true to yourself and be the man you are proud of when handling life's challenges. I think it is important for a person who's DBing to get their own house in order FIRST before dating because it takes a long time to get to a healthy place.
Thanks all. A quick note, before I come back later with a full response.
There's one argument that several people bring up and that I didn't quite address: I'm not ready, I need to heal, I need to be whole again, etc. before dating otherwise I will hurt myself or someone, it won't work, etc. I understand why it makes intuitive sense, but research does not support this. I can't link to it right now, but search for an article called "11 lies we need to stop telling about breakups" for the source.
Lie #3: Rebound relationships and sex don't work Actually, they do. In many cases, experts recommend using rebounds — short flings or even longer-term relationships — as a healthy way to assess yourself and what you're looking for in a new partner. A 2006 study from Princeton University found that people who enter new relationships immediately after a divorce don't have a higher future divorce rate than those who took their time getting back in the saddle.
I do have an example of this in my life. My friend separated from his wife of seven years - they have two kids - and two months later entered into a new R. They are still together eight years later and their R is so strong and healthy that I believe they played a part in setting high expectations for my W. We met them 10 days before BD and my W asked the woman many questions about how they deal with disagreement, which is much better than us. They are the godparents of D3; that's how much I respect them and bet on the stability of their R.
LOL! I have to give you full props, Mozza. I do enjoy how your brain works. I see a few others have weighed in already - but I can't resist throwing in a few of my own counter points here.
1. I could write an internet article right now entitled "20 reasons you should wait to date after a breakup" and be factually correct by saying "Many experts agree that its important to give yourself time to reflect on the old relationship before moving into another."
2. Regarding that 2006 Princeton study - I can't take the time to look it up right now - but it appears to measure only one thing - the divorce rate of people who dated immediately after divorce versus those who waited. First off, as others have pointed out, no matter how you parse it - you aren't divorced yet. And then - I look at the results of this study and derive a completely different theory from it. I would think that some of the "rapid daters" did some work on themselves during the divorce process. Likewise, there are many people who remain single long after divorce and never look inwards at all.
I'm glad your friends have such a healthy marriage. I'm a believer that many of these "rules" aren't etched in stone. We've all read the one about affair partners not working out - but I know some in real life that have done just fine. Possibly, likewise with your friends and their rapid rebound.
Oh - and one last thing that is specific to your sitch. Sorry - but when I read your posts - I get a sense that you are still pretty emotionally tangled up with your wife. Maybe I'm wrong about that - you would certainly be the expert.
Oh - and one last thing that is specific to your sitch. Sorry - but when I read your posts - I get a sense that you are still pretty emotionally tangled up with your wife.
Why do you feel the need to justify every action you take? I notice that in a lot of your posts. I'm doing this, but it's because my WAW has done that.
Me personally, if you have to defend your actions so much.....perhaps you aren't ready to take them.....yet.
Just my thoughts.
M:32,H 32 T:10, M5 BD/H Move Out: 9/2014 - extreme anger H Mental Illness Diagnosis: 4/15 Served D Papers: 10/15 Divorced: 11/15
Thanks again to those who took the time to contribute to the dating discussion. I'm not going to respond individually, even though I feel a little bad about it given the time everyone took to share, but I don't want this topic to monopolize my thread much longer and I haven't read much today to which I haven't responded in my summary and in other posts. Perhaps we should start a generic thread on the topic? Still, I'm very grateful to everyone who took the time to react and share their perspective.
I'm reflecting on where our different perspectives come from. Raliced brought up the deep currents that shape our thoughts. I'm not American, but I lived there for a few years. As she wrote, there is a well-known puritanical streak in the US (even liberal regions) that is not so present where I live. An example that will surprise Americans: where I live, a majority of children are born out of wedlock because couples start families without marrying (I myself got married 2 years after my first child; D7's godparents have 3 kids and aren't married; D3's godparents aren't married either). I think these cultural differences explain in part why things appear so clear to people on both sides of this discussion. Notice the reactions of the non-Americans on it.
On this topic, I understand that in psychoanalysis, pleasure is matched in the mind with interdicts and that sex is the ultimate pleasure that is matched with the ultimate interdicts. We create all sorts of reasons/rules/principles why it shouldn't happen, to us or others: people who have several partners are lower quality, swingers are asking for trouble, seeking sex for pleasure is a sign of weakness, etc. It's often subconscious because we block our desires from even reaching our conscious mind where they make us uncomfortable and confront us with certain fears/shame/guilt (we don't like that others have pleasures that we deny ourselves - this was present in my M where I would guilt my W from her pleasures). I'm not surprised that many people have a strong opinion on dating, that they share their own experience of restraint, and use the arguments of pride and principles to suggest I shouldn't date while separated (I prefer "while separated" because it implies M but no R while the expression "dating while married", while technically true though less precise, refers to couples who are still together, according to my research).
My IC's working hypothesis on me seems to be that, as a Nice Guy, I didn't express my needs, didn't ask for what I want, because of my fears and shame. I settled and, among other issues, ended up in bad Rs (my own unpleasantness was a way to express this unease). Several months after I separated, I would give all sorts of reasons/excuses not to date to avoid confronting my fear of rejection, my shame about myself that might be unmasked in my interactions with women. The problem is that these fears and shame have prevented me from entering healthy R so far. When I finally confront my fear of rejection and shame of my needs, I'll express my interest to several people (the world of abundance of NMMNG) until I find the compatible R/person that I want at a given time. This is not the end of the reflection, but where it stands at the moment.
By now it should be obvious that my mind is made up on this. I came to it after seven months of IC, reading five books on self-awareness and countless articles, discussing with friends, family and this board, and lots of thinking and experimenting. I realize that many people, whom I respect greatly, disagree with me and for some very good reasons. I hope you'll understand my position on this and will not hold it against me.
Our normal program is about to resume. Stay tuned!
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I'm still missing something, why not just get divorced?
Would you be willing to have and open M with your W?
When you and W had disagreements did you come at her with loads of research and bullet-points and summaries or did you communicate with her from your heart?
I think you're a a very good thinker and writer but it seems so clinical, so intellectualized. In fact, it reminds me of someone near and dear to me who has a very hard time moving from his head to his heart. I don't read your thread daily so this may be true of just the posts I've read.
My views on the M relationship have little to do with a puritanical bent, rather needing honesty with myself and, with and from those I'm in R with.
I hope you find what you're looking for.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Funny, for me I just had V post that my WW needs to move from thinking with her heart (OM) to her head, this is in reference to decisions with the kids. I just got a chuckle out of how opposite our WAS's are.
Mozza,
I see what you are saying and I also see that your sitch is very different. Your posts have made me think a lot. I realize that I really want some intimate interaction with someone. For some reason, I'm not to focused on companionship right now. However, my personal check point is that I want to get to a point that I don't feel compelled to explain my sitch, my WW, my 'conditions' such as nothing serious, etc. For me, I also think I'm going to be comparing or sensing 'triggers' that remind me about WW. I see that I'm emotionally attached still because all of this. Anyway like you said, if you've already made up your mind go for it. I think you understand the consequences. It's just one of those things that when it happens, there's no turning back.
Beyond this specific topic, it seems like Mozza is doing really good. Glad things seem to mp be moving in a more postpitive direction for you.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Mozza, I don't think anyone here is going to "hold it against you" regardless of your decision. We all just want what's best for you. I won't comment on everything as there seem to be many opinions here AND you seem to be confident in your place.
I wonder myself what I would do if I had my "lightswitch" moment while we were still in an indefinite S w/ a known PA going on her part. My dating sitch was much less murky. The lightswitch flipped, I found out about PA, she said she was dating again, she said she definitely wanted a D, she actually filed, etc. At that point it was really up to when I was ready. I still don't think I'm ready for committed R, but I don't feel like I'm too far from it. For now, I've just had fun meeting people, flirting, and going on a few light dates.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
