Mozza, here's another perspective for you on the great watch debate -
1. A man that gives that kind of watch is not the kind to ask for a gift back. A key thing you said before posting all your reasons - you don't want to have something that might be asked for. That's fear speaking, no? Fear of embarassment, awkwardness? Having the lower hand in the situation?
2. We all exist in ever-changing relationships. Time is fluid. Maybe the watch can be a symbol of this, you can see positively some day. At one time, you and your W loved each other very much. Your FIL meant that you were accepted and loved because you made his daughter happy. (I'm sure one to talk, but I am trying to grasp these things in my own sitch) - part of detaching and accepting is being thankful for all that was and peace with it, I believe. The astrophysics are lost on me past a certain point, but if that point in space and time is still there, and just unreachable now - it doesn't change that it was there. It was valid. You were loved. That watch was a symbol, as you say. It's ok.
3. On a less abstract note, I'd personally be offended if any of my exes' or my friends' ex bf gave me back a gift. It screams, HERE, TAKE IT BACK, IT NEVER HAPPENED, I'M BITTER! And it is sure to get back to your W, and she is unlikely to look at it as noble, but a dig.
I'm offering a little suggestion that you put it somewhere safe and revisit in a year or so. If at that point you know you never can look at it with love, perhaps approach your FIL gently and ask if he would like his gift back, thank him profusely and do this when things have cooled and it won't be seen as bitter...
Mid 30's Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH D 9/15; NC forever on
I think it's best to let cooler heads prevail. If this is something you want to revisit after time has passed then so be it but I don't think the intention will look as nicely as you perceive it will.
Mozza- I have to say I enjoy reading your threads and responses to others. You look inside and really are here to grow. It's nice to read and see you are aware that there are changes that can be made for yourself. It's helpful to others.
Mozza - sorry I haven't chimed in. Dealing with my own stuff at the moment. You've got some good advice here re watch. I suggest you take it on board.
I also wanted to say that I've also become a bit of a Mozza fan and that wasn't true always. You've turned me! Your progress is truely evident on these forums.
H 37 Me 36 Together 15 years Married 5 years No kids BD Apr 2014 H moved out 2 Jun 2014
OK, I'm convinced: I'm keeping the watch for now! My IC thinks the same. When I said that people on this board believe I should keep it, he just said "Of course". You're right that it could be taken the wrong way by my FIL. Also, as my IC said, it doesn't have to be a symbol of failure, but that of another time in my life. Much what Zelda09 said too.
Thanks a lot to all of you. It's amazing the number of times I came here with something obvious to me, only to realize it isn't so obvious to others. This might be one of the most important lessons from this board and my sitch. As you can guess, my W was often faced with a H absolutely convinced that his point of view was non-debatable. Getting better all the time... _______________________________
I was thinking of how WW wants to have the thrill of passion and she got it with OM. But at first, we hide our true selves to show enthusiasm and patience for everything our new partner wants and does. This is fake. We're not THAT thrilled by their accordion, their potato soup or their designer dress with tiger prints. We're just so happy to be with that person that we do everything to keep things running smoothly. Our feelings for these quirks are not really deep.
People who are addicted to this kind of passion are addicted to something that is fake. It's not just that it doesn't last: it's that it never existed in the first place. Soon they'll realize that they don't really like every quirk of the other person. In fact, they never did. And the feeling's mutual.
I don't even know if that's deep or cliché, but it came to me in a flash today.
(I hope everyone notices how I'm totally ruining the thrill of my next relationship with these thoughts. ) _______________
Zelda09 | Your post was very helpful. Many many thanks for stopping by.
T0324 | Such kind words. Thanks a lot. You had me welling up a bit (in a café!). Like many on these boards, I was told by WW that people don't change and that's why she had to go. So I'm very sensitive to the thought that I can change for the best.
ganb8te | You also had me in tears (while waiting for D7 at her school!) for the same reason. I try not to think about it, but it makes me realize that deep down, I do want to convince someone that people can change: myself.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I agree with the comments about the watch and it looks like you made your decision, for now.
Also, do you still communicate with FIL? I guess it all depends on how close you were with in laws, but the watch looks like they accepted you into the family. W decides who's in her family, not who's in your family(other than her). If in laws decided to remove you from that position then that's their decision, but don't assume since W did they did also. W controls W, mozza controls mozza, FIL controls FIL.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
First, I am very grateful to everyone who chimed in. Everyone was thoughtful and respectful, on a topic seems to be polarizing. I think it benefited anyone who came to have a look and think about their own situation. I reread the entire discussion. I want to give a special mention to PatientMan who really took the time to share his views and to challenge me. By the way, amusing factoid: While a majority here has been against dating, it's been unanimous in real life that I'm free to do as I please, including from my parents married for 46 years. Some even expressed confusion as to why I was even asking, given the situation.
My position is that I'm free to date.
I've thought long and hard about the arguments. I've already stated before what I think about the main ones, but here's a quick recap. I understand that for each of these arguments, some of you disagree.
My M contract was between me and my W. She has ended it unilaterally and unequivocally. She has left me, found someone else, moved in with him, act like a couple and reconstituted family, and repeatedly told me we're done. I don't care what the local law says, and I'm not religious. I'm no longer morally bound by the M contract. In short: I'm single. I see moving on as the healthy thing to do after facing such clear rejection.
My W has no ground to be offended at my dating. She's even told me in several ways that I'm free to meet other people. For that reason, I can't see how me dating casually could upset her, beyond the uneasy feeling anyone gets knowing that an ex is dating, marrying or remarrying.
It is specific to my sitch. I wouldn't advise this to people with a WAW, or with a recent sitch, or with some positive signals, etc. In fact, I've gone around and argued against dating for certain newcomers. My sitch is pretty extreme by several standards.
I don't do it to get a reaction from her. I'd prefer that she doesn't know, just like I don't tell her anything about my life, but if she ends up knowing, there's nothing to hide. I'm not ready to go on dating sites.
I intend to be clear that I'm not marriage material right now. This will obviously be delicate to thread, but I've no intention of leading on anyone. Going on a date or even sleeping with someone does not mean that you want to marry them.
I'm willing to take the risk to meet someone serious. This is probably one for the biggest risks in my view, putting me in a situation where I don't want to reconcile. While I still feel like I'd give a chance to WW, I also realize now that we have serious issues as a couple and that maybe we got together for the wrong reasons.
I'm really excited about it. I don't think anything has been as good for my PMA (except time). Again, nothing has happened yet, but realizing that it is possible already does wonders. My IC encourages me to think of what I really want to do with my life, what I love, what I want. Dating is one such thing.
This is a growth opportunity. I've observed myself a lot in situations of flirting and learnt things beyond this topic. Every day, I push myself to talk to strangers and I get such a sense of accomplishment, even when I'm rejected. I'm doing something difficult for me and growing through it.
I need it to R. This is even more controversial. I can't see myself waiting in chastity while my W is having a sex festival with her new BF. I'd feel too much resentment taking her back in the marital bed like this. If I feel that this has been a time of exploration for both of us, then it might be less painful, less difficult to get back together.
There are also arguments against my dating. The main one is about the consequences. I touched upon them above, but I believe that I can't really know all that will happen once the deed is done. Maybe it will get me in trouble with some women, maybe even with WW more than I anticipate, maybe I'll feel really bad and it will pile up on top of the S, etc. Those are risks that I'm willing to take.
Another reason that makes me doubt my choice is that I can't get my head fully around the arguments against it. When I read the posts, it seems like they don't get something, but it might be me that doesn't get it. I recognize that certain things that are obvious to me are not to others (recently: the watch) and I've been proven wrong in the past. I also watched some newcomers stray from the advice of vets and come to regret it. I often repeat that I'm a DB soldier and that I will follow whatever practical advice. To me, this is different. By the way, if someone could point me to the page of DR about dating, I'd be interested because I couldn't find it tonight. ____________________________
This week-end, it came close to happen. I mentioned going bowling to a political fundraiser and meeting a girl with whom I went for drinks. What I didn't say at the time, because I was waiting for this post, is that I invited her to my place afterwards. She declined. But it was a victory for me. I'm not ashamed of her rejection and have told the story to several people already, with pride ("I invited her!"). This is not about boosting my ego through the approval of others. The whole point is for me to redefine my perception of women and relationships. It's been at the center of my M and sitch. It explains in part why I forgave my W instantly when she had her first affair, because I'm so afraid I'll never find anyone as good. It also explains in part why I'm in such pain today.
I'm not 100% sure that I'm making the right decision, but I'm comfortable with it and the risks and promises it entails. Life is live.
Again, thanks everyone!
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
My .02 is that if you want to date, get divorced first.
My personal observation is that if you dont you are really no better than your spouse. And that you need to heal yourself before starting a new relationship. Most re-bound relationships FAIL.
I'm going to come out in favour of your position, Mozza, and I think I need to head in a similar direction.
I used to be opposed - mostly since it would mess with my head in the event H did want to R. But I had an interesting convo with him the other night. Since I'd alread cracked open the "don't go there" chest I asked if he was dating anyone. He said "he's been on a few dates." Naturally he then asked me and then exclaimed "...surely you have, it's been 10 months already?!" So it made me wonder - is there a danger when we don't date after such a long time (and in your case - with WW living with OM) that we convey we are a loser or otherwise unfit to be with someone?
H 37 Me 36 Together 15 years Married 5 years No kids BD Apr 2014 H moved out 2 Jun 2014
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