Uhhh What Cont'd (3)

[Mac00]

Sorry Mr. Bond. R talks. I've had a very, very difficult time with this. I've read through DB/DR 3+ times, listened to everyone here (but not "heard") and I'm finally to the point whereas I can say "WTF was I THINKING!". So it's only in regards to the R.

I get hot/cold responses all the time. For instance...I was PO'd the other day. Didn't 'agree' with a separation, but told her "I know" knew she wanted it. She @#$% all over me. So, I thought, they're right (you guys) STFU. Just STFU and do what I've been saying for numerous weeks I was going to do. So I started.

My difficulty, is as soon as I 180, or do anything else, she talks. She talks more. Sometimes she's laughing or remenices...and I get caught up in it, and just friggin' slide. As soon as things seem better, I try a 'love language' she adores, affection. I do that, sometimes, she allows, and an hour later in bed, I can't even get an arm around her to cuddle. So I've been confused.

I've grown tired. I thought "do what works". Well, what works is if I spend time with her...but thats where the confusion begins, she's more talkative, chatty, even nice...and a cycle repeats. I'm told "action speaks louder than words" by her...but if I take action, I'm shot down. So, out of frustration, I'm lost.

I'm consistently being told, that though she is being "nicer" to me (this is from her mind you...) that I'm 'reading too much into it'. So, alas, the way I see it, from what I've read, I'm suppose to recoignize baby steps, but I'm being told by her, the those very same baby steps I'm reading too much into. @#$% me, I'm confused. Are they steps, or no?

See what I mean?

Figure the best way NOT to get in @#$% is to do none of the sort.

[MrBond]

You don't need to necessarily STFU all the time. Have you learned how to validate yet? Put that into practice. You'll notice a big change.

[Mac00]

Thanks Mr. Bond. Yes, I've learned to validate, and I don't think I'm all that bad at it.
Noticed Tabby has changed a bit this past week or so. Maybe its nothing, maybe its something.
I've not really participated in housework in the past year before moving across the country with the FAM.
Before our kids, then a few years later, the move, I used to do it all the time.
Watching Tabby for years not attempting to find work, and stressing about being the sole money earner (for the most part), I'd become stressed, and I withdrew myself and became distant.
After meeting all of you, I began to work on the things I needed to change, things she had mentioned in past arguments (she's only mentioned affection and quality time with her/kids, so I need a little help from you guys, some more ideas I can impliment). Part of that was housework. Here's a change, albeit its only happened once (yesterday), that I saw and it shocked me.
Our bed hasn't been made in years. We'd get up, and leave blankets,ect wherever they ended up. Part of my change, has been an effort to make the bed...so I do it everyday. Yesterday, I was running late for work, and couldn't
When I was getting ready for bed last night with Tabby, I looked in the room, to fix the sheets, expecting a shitshow that we left it as in the morning. But it wasn't. Tabby had straightened out the bed. She hasn't done that in years. I had to look at her as she brushed her teeth and asked 'did you make the bed?'
She just answered 'I straightened out the sheets'. I couldn't help but say the Starsky "wow" with a smile. Maybe it was nothing, but maybe it was, I don't know, but I'm sure she noticed that I noticed.
A second thing I saw from tabby this week. Came home from work, got in the door, and began to wash some dishes. Tabby came in and asked if I had noticed what 'she did today'. As I'd only made it as far as the kitchen, I said sorry, no I hadn't. She told me she swept our outside patio and straightened it up. I walked over to the window, looked out, and made a big deal (not too big) about it, mentioned it looked fantastic. (Now, it didn't LOOK different at the time, but I think she was looking for validation of her efforts, it was important to her or she wouldn't have mentioned it, and it was just as important to me that she heard something positive from me..she needed it.)
A third thing happened this morning. I was getting ready for work, getting some dishes done, and Tabby came in the kitchen and asked "did you see that I used garlic when I cooked the roast last night"? (I was at work until 9pm last night. And when I came home made wings for us and we watched TV before bed, so I hadn't eaten any yet. She seemed almost, well, excited to hear my thoughts (and be validated for a job well done).
I told her that I hadn't tried it yet, but was 'dying' to, as it was quite obvious when cutting up roast for my sons lunch, that it was cooked to perfection. I mentioned that it looked so good, I was tempted to have a hot beef sandwich for breakfast. And was looking forward to coming home and doing JUST that after work. I could see she was happy, she went on about how she did this and that, the way it was cooked, ect...happily chatting away.

And here's something I noticed. Something that's been pretty significant from my point of view.

Two weeks ago, there were two occasions that Tabby let me be affectionate. The first was in the bed at 7am. Usually, her alarm goes off at 7am, as she gets her first daycare kid at 730ish. She's usually out of bed, gets dressed, makes a tea by 720am. That morning, I decided to get up close to her and " spoon". We hadn't done that since before Bday.
She let me. I was surprised. I began to rub her back, ect. And kiss her from the neck to her waist. I also slid my hand under her jammies and caressed her butt.
That's as far as I felt comfortable to proceed (after all, the sitch has been fragile at that time for 5weeks, mostly fighting, or complete silence.). Later that morning we argued a little before I left for work. She mentioned she let me do it, so we 'got along better for the kids sake" which, I didn't understand as we were in our room behind a closed door, the kids asleep elsewhere.
That day, I mentioned that I didn't want her to accept my attempts to be affectionate for any other reason than she wants to feel 'close' (if that's makes sense).
A few days later, I was on the couch with her. I could see with all the kids around all day, she was knackered. I took her feet, and massaged them with some cream. She mentioned her hairy legs, but hey, I didn't care, she's my wife. As I massaged her feet, my hands moved up to her calves, then up to her putter and inner thighs, dare I say very close to her happy parts, but I left it at that, no pushing. And she not once said anything, I was sure if I was pushing too much, she'd stop me, or say so.
An hour later, we went to bed. Because I had been near her vhappy spot, and she didn't pull away, I thought it would be okay to cuddle with her. As soon as I cuddled up behind her and reached my arm around her, she pushed my arm away. Totally rejected me. I apologized, and respected her boundary, and backed off to my side of the bed. I cut of any affectionate displays for almost a week.
Night before last: Tabby was out grocery shopping, I was looking at divorce websites. Getting information "just in case". I printed off the paperwork to file, so I could see what I'd need to do if I had no choice to file. (She had mentioned 'separated for life' before, and I can't move forward with someone else unless I was divorced).
I filled out some of the paperwork and put it under my desk (no intention to file, mind you, just wanted to have it done, put away, and have one less 'thing' on my mind to do should she all of the sudden be done and gone). When Tabby came home, I went out to the local pub (part of my GAL that note, it was wing note, and, the place is packed, I meet a lot of people there).
I was there perhaps 15mins, and my phone rings, and its Tabby. I KNEW, she had looked and found the printouts and paperwork partially filled out. Not wanting to fight, I ignored the call, and shut off the phone. 30 mins later, I turned it on, and her texts had already started.
She went on about many things. (Won't get into detail, this post is too long as it is.)
I get home and go to bed, and she's in there. I snuggled up behind her and put my arm around her (she allowed). I reiterated my feelings for her, however, I told her I'm very tired of being confused, accused of intentionally trying to mess with her head, accepting all the blame as the reason she had her EA, and that I refuse to be a doormat. I told her I was a person, with feelings and she would not trample them. I validated that I had part in getting us to where we are, but I've taken corrective actions to address those issues, and was quite happy with myself. Of course, she zinged one too, "I'm not attracted to you anymore" -devastated, I left it at that.
The next morning I woke up very close to her. I felt awful she had been hurt by finding the paperwork. I rolled over and spooned with her. Rubbing her tummy/back/ and yup, butt. I asked her if she was okay with what was happening, she was. As her alarm started going off at 7am, she hit snoozecat least 5 times.
We talked later in the morning, no fighting. I again verified that what I had been doing to her was okay, and she said yes.
And again, this morning, the same thing happened. Again multiple alarms ignored, until the very last second could be spent in bed before she had to get up and greet that first child.
I'm excited about the past two days, and that my touches on her arm, or the closeness in the bed in the mornings haven't been shunned, and frankly, a bit surprised. I've read that a wife clan lose attraction for a spouse if they've also lost respect (as physically,bother than the drop of 25 lbs - I now have my 6pack back!) I haven't physically changed.
This allowance of my affection...that normal?

[Mac00]

And AGAIN this morning! (Though this time I was 'allowed (?) to be, err, more affectionate (though she did drop my name, when I crossed an unknown boundary I guess I was supposed to know was a boundary, followed by 'I have to get up now anyways'. I'm totally at a loss. Absolutely nothing reciprocated though. Frustrating to say the least.
This is so unfamiliar. I'm not certain these allowances by her to receive affection from me are real (a great sign MHO), or if I'm being 'used' to make her feel good. Interestingly. I recall weeks ago I was told I'm not to hug/hold/be affectionate, ect. And now, I can kiss the back of her head, rub her leg when I'm talking to her on the couch, wrap an arm around her in bed..Jesus, even 'spoon' (which I never liked for longer than a few minutes. Sore back when I'm on my side).
And yet, last night, I had my hand on her tummy, and hers was slightly touching mine, and she moves her hand away.
We're both 'off ' tomorrow. While I was being VERY affectionate this a.m., I told her I wanted to 'spend more time' with her in bed tomorrow morning, and she agreed. Not sure how to take it, invitation?
Ahh. Forgot to mention that last note she told me she wanted to be out of bed this morning early, so she could have a shower. Well again, the affection I was giving usurped the alarm clock and her shower. I'm a little excited about that, but must remain cautiously optimistic.
No R talk for a number of days now. Least I'm not blowing that! Day by day for now I s'pose

[mvgfwd2]

I would back off any initiation from you. It seems like pursuing. If she wants it she knows where you are. She may be just not wanting to hurt your feelings or get into an argument. Let her initiate next time.

[Mac00]

Very well could be. I'm certainly hoping it isn't to keep from causing hurt or an argument, for, believe you me, thus far earlier on in the sitch, she had no problem saying 'no'.

[Mac00]

UPDATE

Thought things were getting better. In past 2.5 months, I was able to be 'way' more affectionate. No sex, but pretty damn close. No reciprocation, but I expected that, but things we hadn't done in bed for years. She told me she was OK with the affection. Even went on a date 12 days ago and had some fun, and interesting bedroom time. I even felt her kiss back once when I went to kiss her, she talked about plans like camping in the summer when kids out of school, got a job (sales, so no pay, just p/t and commission), ect., and now, I'm screwed.

I've been asking about her not reciprocating in bed. For the past few weeks, she's been telling me she's trying to figure out how she's feeling, and if leaving the marriage would be a mistake...and to some extent I believe that, but now have to question that too. The other day, my 6yr old mentioned her and the kids went and looked at a place for mummy to buy. I asked her about it. She denied it for days, inferring he was lying. I finally confronted her, and she admitted the lie saying she knew it was a mistake to lie, felt bad about it, wanted to admit it, but was caught off guard. I was pissed, as I've been trying to regain a little trust in her since I'm and her EA dun in March.
The other night, at 230am I woke up to my youngest screaming bloody murder downstairs, wife not in bed, so I went to see what was going on and she was nowhere in the house. I checked the driveway, and saw the car was there, and see her get out with her earphones and phone. She comes in, said she has a lot on her mind and went out to the car for privacy to listen to her music and be out of the house. Of course, she said 'I know you don't believe me,ect,ect...' That 6th sense we've all developed due to our similar sitches made started to fester that very moment. The next morning, yesterday, I woke up, asked her for 100% honesty 'are you really trying to figure out how you feel?' Answered yes, and that it bothers her that she hasn't figured out y she doesn't have the answer yet. I asked 'Are you honestly weighing as to whether leaving the marriage would be a huge mistake?' Answer yes, because the decision isn't just about her, but kids needs need to be considered too. Though OK with those answers, that feeling was still nagging at me. Two hours later, I could hear her in the shower, I went upstairs, and saw her phone. I've checked it on and off for past two months and found nothing, wondering if she was deleting stuff, or being honest...so I looked, and up pops a new msg she hadn't seen yet

'Can't wait to put my cock in there"

......I lost it, txted back 'thank you for helping ruin my marriage, good luck to both of you, sent it, brought the phone to my wife put it on the counter and said "THIS is y you can't figure out your feelings with regards to me! Andeft it at that. She told me its been on/off for 'awhile' but she didn't want t to hurt me.
Made a bunch of mistakes:got drunk (I quit drinking as it was a 180 for me and an issue for her, freaked out as she went back in the van again last night to chat, ect.
I also took a stand. The past little while I began to trust...a little, but brought a boundary with me. After lying about looking for a place, she was told 1 more lie, I'd walk for my own sanity. My stand? I called my lawyer, set an appointment to begin separation, and currently waiting to find out the process and my legal responsibilities to my kids. As far as I understand, though she has been cake eating. And she has three options a) attempt to stay in the marriage and live the double life, b)pursue marriage 100%, or c) pursue OM 100%. Though she would pick a for her security, my taking away the fork will MAKE her choose...I'm no expert, but making a consequence for breaking a boundary must be followed up on...interesting to hear thoughts about what I may expect next. My shrink mom expects she'll attempt to make sure she has a string/claw in me to pull me back in case very long distance EA fizzles yet again.

Feel free to throw in 2 cents

Thanks guys, devastated again

[MrBond]

Maybe I don't get all the "you giving her affection" deal. Ever since you started here, you can't seem to stop wanting to "give her affection" even though she has never said she wanted it. For you it's extremely physical and sexual. Have you learned any other way to attract her aside from physical? That's just satisfying your need, not hers.

Sorry to hear about the latest.

[Mac00]

Hey Mr. Bond,

I did stop after my last post. We then actually became friends, or at least 'friendlier' towards one another. I watched what was almost a night/day transformation for a time. She was like her old self again, pre-EA...spending time with her was almost like it was when we first met, pre-marriage/kids...I actually mentioned it to her it was so apparent. The affection started, as there came a time a few weeks back, for the first time, she actually touched my leg while I was beside her on the couch. I was shocked, few days later, she landed a job (albeit, NOT what she was hoping for). She came home, in a good mood after making a sale and I was doing dishes, I congratulated her as I walked across the room and just instictively kissed her lips, and she kissed back, just a peck.
Once some of the affection started to happen in bed, I asked her what had changed, she mentioned it was a part of her trying to decide if she's making a mistake. I stopped again after awhile of no recipocation and asked if what we were doing was okay, or if she'd rather it stopped, and she mentioned on a few occasions it was fine.
I thought I was attracting her back to the marriage. She was absolutely stunned on Mothers day...I sent flowers, had them delivered here, she came downstairs in absolute shock, but utterly amazed and happy...upset with the youngest when he started picking at the flowers as they were 'hers'...then this OM business again. I have little doubt it was her that initiated the contact. If history indeed repeats itself, than I'm sure it will fizzle again in time. Just hoping my stand, was the right decision. It was the last thing I could do. I cannot allow her to see that it is okay to live with me, and carry on an EA with someone over and over again.

[MrBond]

"actually touched my leg while I was beside her on the couch."

That's not really much.

"I was shocked, few days later, she landed a job (albeit, NOT what she was hoping for). She came home, in a good mood after making a sale and I was doing dishes, I congratulated her as I walked across the room and just instictively kissed her lips, and she kissed back, just a peck."

Again, you initiated. She didn't.


"Once some of the affection started to happen in bed,"

Did she initiate this? If so, what did she do?

"I asked her what had changed, she mentioned it was a part of her trying to decide if she's making a mistake. I stopped again after awhile of no recipocation and asked if what we were doing was okay, or if she'd rather it stopped, and she mentioned on a few occasions it was fine."

You do know that "fine" doesn't mean "fine". Right?

"I thought I was attracting her back to the marriage."

That isn't what attracts a woman. Attract her mind and the body follows. Right now the OM is occupying her thoughts. He's her fantasy. The things she wants but can't have.