I thought everything was okay....(Part 4)

[PatientMan]

I'm in the crowd of LBH who are experimenting with flirting and have even been advocating it on other sitches. It came from my IC who's observing that I hang on to a person who has unequivocally withdrawn her love from me to give it to someone else. Why is it that I find all sorts of excuses to say that I'll go back to her, that I need to be faithful to her?

Did you vow to be faithful to her? Are you still married? I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

I don't know...perhaps you may be confused on this because SHE is breaking her own marital covenant vows. What may be happening, though, is you are focusing on moving on/settling the score/having fun/playing the "if she did it, then I can do it too" game.

And while you are focused on that you have lost sight of something entirely more important: you ought to be a man who does what he says and stays true to his word. There is no one on this earth who should have the ability to change that.

Do you want to be an attractive male? Start off by understanding what your core convictions really are, and then stand firm in them no matter what...even if a loved one treats you poorly. That is STRENGTH, and strength is attractive.

He's making me think about my hidden reasons and one of them is a fear of women, of rejection. I need to test whether I want to reconcile with my WAW because I lack confidence with other women or only because I truly love her.

Those two are not mutually exclusive.

Furthermore, if you're experimenting with this idea, why are you advocating it? The fact that you are experimenting means you don't know what the results or consequences will be. This is irresponsible.

TLEE86, I think this may apply to you especially as you find your WAW so attractive and probably doubt that you'll ever do as well, so you shouldn't let her go. This is your insecurities, not true love. Realize that beyond her beauty and inner glow, she's also the person who's giving you all this pain and it should count in your assessment of her as a life partner.

Agreed.

I'll be blunt: another reason why I flirt is that I hardly see myself going back with WAW without having had my fun too (yes, sex). WAW left with another man and a few weeks or months later, moved in with him. Pardon me if I'm crude, but I just know that they had intense and amazing sex for months, like any new, loving relationships do. I can't bear the thought of her coming back and me having waited on the side like a good boy while she had a romantic/sex vacation. Look around at the anger of LBH at the unfairness of their sitches (Maybell, Foolish): it is a very powerful and destructive feeling. Remaining faithful during this period will keep my resentment too high for a long lasting reconciliation. That's my theory. In 2009 when she cheated on my (slept twice with a colleague), she offered me to have a "pass" and I turned it down because I didn't want it and I didn't want to threaten our relationship with unexpected reactions. So it's not like I crave to sleep with other women, but the circumstances are what they are.

And when you think long and hard about it, that seems to you like a path to a healthy reconciliation, relational restoration, and the foundation for a thriving marriage?

-PM

[Mozza]

Thank you PatientMan. I responded on my thread to avoid hijacking MCS' thread.

[MCS]

No problem with the exchange. The two perspectives help me out. I definitely tend to agree with PM, but I understand Mozza's perspective also.

I've had MC today and it was well....interesting. I think I may be done. The constant lies, deception and all the drama is causing me to just get angry. I Feel like W's emotional state has MC nervous (she stopped going twice) about any conflict and states it that way. I feel W is not honest and just says thing that she knows will get me angry or what he wants to hear and then does the complete opposite outside of MC.

I'm thinking about taking a break, but scared that it will give W excuse that I left and also if I leave that I'm not going to be able to hold on any of the feelings of compassion and/or love I have for her.

I see she's struggling, she no longer tells me she's fine/happy/content, but now blames her leaving on me and not that she wanted to do her own thing like she did earlier.

I fear that it feels like W is opening to me emotionally which is a first since BD, but it seems misguided to protect herself. I think she's realized her 'plan of happiness' has not worked out, but hasn't done any introspective work on herself to realize that the reason she left was just selfish, instead pushing the blame back to me (with the 4th or 5th different reason.

I just feel I can't emotionally hold on still that is healthy for me. Any thoughts?

[Vanilla]

If it is ok I thought that I might chip in on the flirting issue. I dance, sometimes blues dancing with some fantastic dance partners in a dance that lasts for max 3 mins. During that time you are connecting with another human, your focus is on partnering with them. And yes it's flirty.

I see this as intent why do we flirt and connect?

My intent is to make the dance enjoyable, have a better connection, it is never a prelude to a peccadillo, to iniate a sexual encounter, a prelude to intimacy of a carnal kind. It is pleasant nice to meet you, enjoyed dancing with you thank you.

So, dating is different, it is the intention of starting the research for a new partner, a testing of others. Because I am ready for it, because I like the other person, because H is behind me, because I am completely free for a new R. If I am choosing some wonderful new partner then I want to treat them as I would like to be treated With kindness, compassion, interest and friendship. As a person with right to be treated with respect even if it is one date without chemistry. I would like an RD, OD, MCS, Edz, Jim kind of man who has values and appreciates mine. I read on RDs thread he would be looking for the equivalent if his M eventually ceased.

Some try dating but they are unready and decide it is not time for them. They are not truly free and it would complicate their stand for their M.

After this experience with H then it will be a long time before I can reach that space if ever. And yes, I have a high sex drive, up to me to manage that myself. Revenge sex or using someone as a release is not me and really I will not want to be with any man for more than 10 minutes who wants to treat me that way. I feel I am like many women, sex gets better the more involved the R.

My 2 c worth!

V

[MCS]

So..something is happening, I just have no idea what that is.

I think I'm done, but then something pulls me back in. Another weird day of things happening.

First, W and I had a scheduling conflict for the kids for tomorrow. To summarize a conversation over a 3 week time. She sent me a schedule for March, I looked and saw she was switching up the schedule for one day, I didn't want to reply back to cause controversy, we talked about that day and I asked if why she changed that day, she said that it was to keep our days exactly even, we talked about how we shouldn't be doing stuff just to keep the tally even. Caught up? Anyway, we got sidetracked at that point and never resolved who would have the kids that day.

That day is tomorrow (and Friday) I sent her an email today and said that we discussed, but we never resolved that day and I was planning just to use our 'normal' schedule Me Mon-Fri, her Fri-Mon. She replied that I never replied back to her and should have changed it in writing and she was planning on getting them tomorrow.

Well, I sent a long email about how this communication is just not working nor is it fair to the kids. It was long, factual, and passive-aggressive (W, as we discussed, if you want the kids tomorrow to keep the days 'even,' I'm fine with that.) I knew the last piece was a little below the belt, but I was at the point that I didn't care.

So, she replied back that she wasn't going to debate for this week over email and we could use our 'normal schedule,' but her reasoning for wanting that day was because she missed them and hasn't seen them.

I replied back that I agree their normal schedule is best and then said "As I've offered before, if you'd like to call or take them out for dinner, etc. I'm perfectly fine with that"

No response back, but its the first time she's backed down without throwing out accusations. IDK

Then, I got a text from SIL that W knows she talked to me, if you remember; I called SIL the other weekend after W said no one cares for her and that everyone treats her like 'poop.' I was and still am worried about W's emotional state.

SIL said she and I are good; but wanted to give me a heads-up. She said W is angry about "work, life, she doesn't know" and its upsetting SIL how W is texting her. SIL said that she told W that she's going to answer her phone regardless of W's instructions to her. I said that I just don't know what to do and I was worried about W and said, just be there for her. She said she's fine with me, but she's just getting pushed away from W.

So, I'm really worried about W, but I find she throws stuff at me when I'm around that is so accusatory and then I just get upset/angry because of what she says. I want to be there for her, but she's saying stuff that's just not true about how 'I' feel about her.

As I said yesterday, everyone is just telling me to take a break. I think that's what I need to do, but I just feel like I'm leaving W at one of the lowest points since BD. I guess I'm fine with that in most circumstances, if I wasn't worried about her so much emotionally.

I want to take a break from MC because its just slinging stuff my way, but I also think that's why she's doing it, so I give up.

I'm just lost right now......

[TLEE86]

So this is an interesting post to me in particular because I am literally about to write something very similar. But just some of my observations here...

Well, I sent a long email about how this communication is just not working nor is it fair to the kids. It was long, factual, and passive-aggressive (W, as we discussed, if you want the kids tomorrow to keep the days 'even,' I'm fine with that.) I knew the last piece was a little below the belt, but I was at the point that I didn't care.

Im confused. HOW is this "below the belt?" Because you put "even" i quotations? I think you are readying way too much into it, I don't really know what else was written but that little blurb right there to me isn't below the belt, its...what she wanted. So the truth.

S
As I said yesterday, everyone is just telling me to take a break. I think that's what I need to do, but I just feel like I'm leaving W at one of the lowest points since BD. I guess I'm fine with that in most circumstances, if I wasn't worried about her so much emotionally.

If this is what you feel like you need to do, I think you should do it. Give it a few days, a week, 2 weeks, whatever you need to re-charge and take care of you. I read in your previous post about "saving" your wife. As you know Ive felt this way for a long time but the more days that go on, I really don't care anymore. You know this too..that she needs to do it herself. You're just getting in the way if you try and save her.

Her being at her lowest state...very interesting because I feel that way too. Im honestly not sure what to do about it. Except reiterate that if she's at her lowest, thats probably a GOOD thing, IMO. She has to hit the very bottom before she can come up again and the sooner she hits it, without you being a dickhead or rude to her, the sooner she can start parting through the fog.

Whats going on with her and OM? Is he causing any of this? Is he helping her through any of this...emotional drama she has with herself?

[Mozza]

MCS, this looks tough on you. You do seem exhausted because certain things seem to affect you greatly. You probably know that you shouldn't be thinking too much about how she feels and what she thinks, anymore than it affects your relationship with your kids. I guess a little distance might help you to see this more clearly.

I've little experience because my W and I have always been cordial and communicate very, very little, as you know. So I don't have good advice for you. I only want you to know that I'm still reading your thread religiously (ha!), as always.

[MCS]

Mozza, TLEE,

I'll try to hit both of your posts. Long, get things off my chest post here.

Yes, I am exhausted and I feel like I've went backwards from detachingthe last week or so. The reason being is twofold. First, we got to the point that she opened up enough for me to see the pain she is in. However conversely, she's accused me of something that is just untrue and says that's why she's in pain. If there was no OM in the picture, I may be willing to listen on why she's saying what she is saying. But even then it would have been a huge stretch. I think her pain is that A didn't work out (her plan A) and also the grass isn't greener of being alone (her plan B) However what she is saying caused her to leave me (not the A) was smack in the middle of her time she was looking at making her 'move' to get out of the M in order to be with him. Problem is he didn't bite.

So what I think happened was She already had made the hotel plans with OM, (while her and I were still together) and according to her, he supposedly didn't show up (still while we were together.) I think at that point W was in desperation mode to get him to commit and used me as the excuse because I think he probably put a stop to taking their A to the next level. Anyway, I think she fabricated this story of why she was 'leaving' me anyway regardless of his intentions in hopes that he would ditch his GF. It was outlandish and not true, so anyone that knows me, she just stopped talking to them. She had tried to use some different reasons on why she left (MCS didn't help around the house, MCS worked late, etc.) but those folks started to tell her those things were normal and she should try and fix them with me. So since those excuses didnt 'take' she isolated herself from all of our friends (these lies were part of the way that our friends put the pieces together of OM and confronted me about it) So without our friends, She surrounded herself with OM friends who believed what she said because they don't know me. So when she told them her lies, they felt bad for her. If you remember back, that guy came up to me when W was moving out and told me the sitch between W and I was very different than he was led to believe. Well, I told W about that incident last week (when I caught her telling me what she tells everyone else) and she freaked out asking why he would say that to me? I said I don't know, I didn't even know who he was, but he gave me his phone number to call if I needed to talk to someone. Yeah, that got her even madder.

So back to the sitch, I think the A kept going after she left because for him it was no change (he wasn't going to commit regardless) and I think W was doing everything possible to keep him hooked while trying to persuade him to leave. Then I blew everything up when I found out. I think he then got scared and even colder feet and at some point cut it off. I know W was still trying to pursue, and she may still be now. Not sure when it dissolved, but I haven't heard anything about him since Dec. timeframe.

So, obviously the A is not progressing, I think he would have moved in already (her house is right around the corner from his) W is in the withdrawal phase, I think. I also found out that W has moved buildings at work, so they no longer work in the Same building. So, recently when I saw how much of a mess she's in, I tried to reach out to help, but she's blamed it all back on the reason that she told him and his friends she left me. I don't know if she's not being honest with herself or is just using this because it's easier than trying to R or even that she doesn't feel like she could come back. IDK.

So, that's why I'm torn and she's probably confused at my intentions. I say to her I care about her, I'll do what she wants, we're worried about her, but then she'll throw accusations and lies my way and I definitely won't validate them because they are lies but worse yet I'll get angry because I do know what her actual intentions were when she left. I think that's why she's cut almost everyone out, because they don't believe her. So she's isolated herself and she seems to be spiraling down because she has no one to turn to. SIL pretty much said that today in her text, she feels W is pushing he away.

That's why I'm confused. I don't know what's good for me, for her, for the kids, for our M. As I see it, I've got three options:

take a break (friends/family suggestion for me)

keep trying to work the careful line of providing compassion when she's truthful and sterness when she's not (my current approach)

just try full compassion even though I don't believe her and also try not to dispute her lies (MC approach)

[Mozza]

Will you tell us what is this outlandish lies she's telling to explain her departure?

[MCS]

Mozza,

I'll get back to your question in a few days. I need to digest a little. Like I said, it seems like something is happening. I'm at a crossroads, I need to choose a path.

I went to IC today and she made me realize that whether W is lying or not, it doesn't matter. She's telling me how she feels/felt for the first time in a long, long time. Does it matter if I agree with it, whether its factual, whether it had to do with me or OM, politics or the weather? She's telling me how she feels (and it seems like I'm the only one she's telling) [Here's a nod to Vanilla for trying to tell me this for the last couple months....love ya, V]

My W didn't share a whole lot with me over the last year (or maybe more,) but that doesn't mean she wasn't 'feeling' things about me whether they were good or bad. I couldn't react to either because she was keeping them bottled up. Our communication was so horrible and I didn't even know it that her feelings of resentment (I don't know exactly why, yet) built up inside her and we got farther and farther apart, especially with OM in the picture.

Anyway, I need some time to process. The next phase is going to be difficult because I'm going to have to trust my W with a bunch of my emotions and try everything possible not to defend myself. I may be at the point that there's so much damage that she's done to me with OM, BD, A, etc. that I'm not going to be able to do that. I don't know, but I pretty much know what the right thing to do is. I need to figure out if I'm ready.