Alpha - rollercoasting #3

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, that's a positive development. You backslid with your W recently and need to recover from this. I would not put your focus on her during this meeting, but aim to move a step forwards in terms of her trusting you with the kids. Saying things like you will kill yourself is not going to help that - so any time you feel something radical about to pop out of your mouth, clap your hand over it okay?

Can I ask why she has been so reluctant for you to have the kids at all? From your posts, you feel you are a good Dad to them. It seems unreasonable to me that she only 'allows' limited access and this may be something you want to challenge. But does she have some legitimate reason for her concern? Ideally in this sitch, your kids would be staying with you for some of the time. But it sounds like she is getting to call all the shots WRT your time with your children and you are accepting this.

So, I would make tomorrow all about fatherhood and don't seek to make progress with your W, other than 'small talk.'

[alpha99]

Hi Toots,

The day she dropped the bomb she said we would have them a week each, or half the week each, 50/50. I agreed to this. During the course of the next few weeks there was a lot of ugliness from her side, I made recordings of her lying about me, finally told her I had them, and ever since she has said she doesn't trust me. Funny how her having at least a 4 month long affair seems to slip her mind at this point when talking about trust. I caved in over recordings and deleted them but once or twice since our split have threatened to expose her A or hurt myself. I haven't done either.

In answer to your question I think she feels empowered by her family, her mother in particular, who at the time A was exposed to them pretty much blamed it on me not washing the dishes. MIL has told her she has all the rights in the world, they have a solicitor in the family who is in America giving them advice, and so W feels like she can call all the shots. I have probably been too soft on this front. I know what they're saying is wrong, I could easily equally employ a solicitor who might say everything is rosey for me. They don't see that though, they just see that they've been told W pretty much owns the kids now and do as she pleases, has the right to move in and out of our home as she pleases, and I have to do whatever she says regarding everything. I've felt that if I did mount some legal battle then knowing my W things would turn nasty very quickly and any chance of working things out down the line would be gone forever.

Things had been working out fine last week as I saw the kids every day at MIL's house, took them to and from school most days, and went out with them once or twice. Things were heading in the right direction. The fiasco of my own making as son was ill has led us here now. Because of the stupid things I said my W equates me to those people you hear about on TV who commit suicide and take all their family with them. Of course I was not serious over claims regarding myself, and I would never in a million years hurt me children. I'm sure W deep down knows this. W though, fed in large part by her mother and family, is using this to dictate over when I can see the kids. I can't say I blame her totally but I do feel she is more using this as a means to line things up in her favour rather than deep and genuine concern that I would do something. When A was exposed her parents wouldn't let me speak to W alone cos they had taken their family legal advice and was genuinely concerned I was going to strangle her or hit her over the head with a hammer (their words) despite me not showing any anger, saying I forgave W, and wanting to work things out. Quite ridiculous. I think they've been watching too many US drama series. Skip forward a week or two and I'm running the kids to school, alone with my W in the car at times, going to school assemblies etc. There some seem to be a lack of empathy for the situation. I don't want to play the victim at all but my W has left, took the kids, wants a D, is selling our home etc etc and her parents have said that it's ridiculous that (after 10 years together) I am still upset over things 6 weeks after our split.

[twinmom]

Saying that you want to hurt yourself is very serious. Even though you may know it's not a serious threat others do not.

To be honest if my H said that I would get a court order to stop him from being alone with the kids.

Are you seeing a therapist? Might I suggest an IRL support group, anti depressants/anti anxiety meds..... This might help you to better cope with your grief.

Also can I suggest throwing yourself into work/volunteering or any projects that will take your mind off of what's going on in your life. I did this (and am still doing this) and I can't tell you how much it has helped. I feel confident, I keep my mind from going to dark places, I am so tired at the end of the day (5 kids helps with that too lol!) that I fall asleep easy and stay asleep(until the baby wants to nurse)....

Here are some things I tried (try) to work on, maybe some of these hit home with you and can give you a little direction...
Volunteering, I had always donated items and my time to charity but I really made an effort to focus on doing more.

Being easy going, I have high expectations and run my house very strictly... I mean come on, 5 (well 4 kids then & pregnant) I had to have order/rules... but anyway I worked on being relaxed like eating dinner outside and letting the twins (then 2yrs old) run naked in the backyard with the sprinkler on and snacking on dinner in between runs through the sprinkler. Staying up till 9 with the kids watching a movie & eating popcorn with a million pillows/blankets on the living room floor.....

Being critical of others/always being negative, I really TRY (yep this one is still a work in progress) to help others without judging them. Like my H's family, it's SO hard to offer help when I know the reason they need it is because they make stupid financial mistakes and self indulge. BUT I try not to think about that and just decide either to help or not and leave it at that.

I know I am rambling but I hope there is something from all this you can use.

[alpha99]

Hi twinmom,

Thank you for your suggestions.

I think my main problem at the moment is that I work from home and my 'friends' don't ever really do much. I probably only see them once every month or two. Without W and kids I am very lonely. I am with my parents a lot but they aren't much company to be honest.

Regarding hurting myself, I think deep down my W does know it was not a serious threat. I did explain that to her afterwards on the phone when she called, just that I was upset and it was a stupid thing to say and that I didn't mean it. Thinking about it now makes me feel so stupid.

I am lonely. I feel all alone on this planet. I have moments where I am distracted but overall I feel so terribly alone. I have regular (I mean see at least every week) contact with about 4-5 people in the whole world.

Immediately after split when I was a complete mess I went to the doctors and took anti Ds. They weren't working (I know they take time) and so I stopped taking them. I have been to a mental health service for an assessment and they just said I had an anxiety issue and we're going to refer me for some cognitive behaviourial therapy. I need to chase that up as the onus was on me to do so.

I feel like all the odds are against me at time. No one to talk to, W seemingly happy with herself as she has kids, new place, work friends who are telling her she's doing the right thing, a supportive family. I have a mother and father who make me a cup of tea or ask if I want a biscuit but are unable to provide any meaningful support. With no extended family (only two sisters, only one of which is any help) then I'm lost.

I have been GAL and when I do that I feel better...but it doesn't last. As I wrote last week, I went to the language meet up. It went very well, I enjoyed the new experience etc and I didn't really think about sitch at all whilst there. As soon as I left the place I was buzzing but my first thought was to call my W (as I would normally do after a social event) and tell her how it went. I couldn't. I felt so lonely. I feel so lonely. I know I can be tough and get through this but there are moments like today where my parents have gone away for the night, I am not in a position to work because of my emotions, I have no one to speak to, and I miss my children and my W terribly, that I feel like the world has fallen in on me.

I don't want to go down the anti D route. I had been doing a lot better these last few weeks. Even my parents had noticed. My big thing is to get another job that will keep me occupied throughout the day and then tired because of it at night.

I was going to get an unlimited cinema pass but the thought of being in the cinema all alone a few times a week has kind of put me off the idea.

[alpha99]

I would appreciate if anyone reading this could point me in the direction of a success story stemming from a situation like my own.

here's the facts:

W had affair that preceeded our separation.
W said she hasn't been happy in months (extended into years now).
Looking back, I shouted, said nasty things, treated W badly at times. We had plenty of good times mixed in there and I had no idea we had gotten to this point.
I moved out to give her space, but I didn't give her space. I begged/pleaded/nagged. If I had given her space at this point things may have been resolved quickly.
She couldn't handle the pressure and moved to her parents with our 2 children.
I had threatened to expose her A at her workplace.
I moved back in at home.
W wanted to move back home after falling out with her mum. I said no.
W has found a rented place and is in the process of moving in with our children.
The week prior to this things were starting to look better. W had said she doesn't want to argue, wants to be friendly for the kids etc.
S was ill last week and sent to hospital. I reverted back to begging/pleading etc after frosty reception from W and her dictating when I could see my sick son.
Not seen children now for 4 days. Missing them and W terribly.

Just finding out that someone in a similar situation has gotten through this would help me enormously right now. I read through Jefe's thread and they were very inspirational but he was at home with his kids and had WAW. Also his W seemed to be in contact with him daily from the start. My wife is very stubborn, angry, defensive, suspicious, and determined that she wants a fresh start, a divorce, pretty much full custody of the kids at the moment (although in the future she said that might change), doesn't love me, hasn't been happy in years, doesn't find me attractive anymore, said the sex with OM was 'a different league', says she wishes she had never gotten married, and the other day when I said I was the father of the kids she said, yeah, unfortunately. There are many other horrible things she has said to me recently. I know she is lashing out but they are so hurtful.

I had asked her previously if there was a chance of us ever working things out. To begin with she said I don't know, maybe in the future. A day or two after BD she said I was a good man and that I wasn't all bad, and that we probably would get back together. So many things have happened then (mostly not good) and we seem a mile away from those quite positive things. A few weeks ago she said we were never, never, never getting back together. The last time R was mentioned and I asked her if we might one day work things out, she said 'I don't think so. Too many things have happened. Her little slogans has been 'no love, no trust, no point' and 'you've brought this all on yourself'. She has shown no guilt or remorse about pretty much anything and is acting like she is completely moving on with her life, says she feels a weight has been lifted, won't ever go back to how things were (she stopped short of saying never - this was about a 10 days ago), and is generally living life like she's loving every second. I hate everything about what is going on, what the future holds for our children without me helping to guide their childhood, and so many other things.

[Starsky309]

My wife is very stubborn, angry, defensive, suspicious, and determined that she wants a fresh start, a divorce, pretty much full custody of the kids at the moment (although in the future she said that might change), doesn't love me, hasn't been happy in years, doesn't find me attractive anymore, said the sex with OM was 'a different league', says she wishes she had never gotten married . . .

My wife said ALL of that, and more. "I hate you." "I hate you and I will ALWAYS hate you." Went for full custody of our children. Had her lawyer move to immediately have me removed from my own house. Told her OM that "no one ever did it for me the way that you do," along with multiple ILYs. Lied about me -- repeatedly -- to her parents, her siblings and even our own children, making ME out to be some sort of crazed, controlling lunatic.

And more.

That was in 2007. Next month, we will celebrate our 30th wedding anniversary and renew our vows, in front of our children and our two new grandchildren. Our relationship has never been stronger.

Alpha, there are no guarantees. The only guarantees are the NEGATIVE ones -- you know, "I can guarantee that you WON'T get her back if you keep doing the negative things you're doing," that sort of thing. All you can do is maximize your chances, by following the DB principles and your posters' advice, consistently and over time.

There are no magic bullets, unfortunately.

Starsky

[alpha99]

Thanks Starksy,

I know you're right, there's no magic bullet. I am just interested in how people in a similar situation managed to turn things around. I know that any further negative moments between us are just going to push things towards divorce quicker.

If you ever get the time I would be very interested in an overview of how you managed to turn your sitch around over time. Since your posts spread over multiple user names and years it seems I think I would struggle to get through it all and piece it all together myself. Your advice all along has been spot on. Thank you. I'm just having a really rough day today.

I guess I need to start thinking about how I'm going to handle tomorrow. Being with the kids is no problem - looking after them is second nature to me. I am just wondering how to deal with my W. Since we're out for a meal together conversation is going to be inevitable. Should I initiate friendly banter or let her lead. Obviously no R talk, that's not the point of the occasion. I have a feeling she will mention her new place, how happy she is, try and goad me into a fight maybe over how I have been proved wrong, how she is a good mum, how things are better than ever for her, all the hospital and school rows from recently, how I said I was going to hurt myself, how she can't trust me with the kids alone etc. I know I mustn't react negatively and I plan on saying I don't want to discuss those things whilst we are out with the kids. I am just a bit nervous over how this meeting will go because it has to go well.

[Starsky309]

Alpha,

Although my posts span 11 years and three usernames, the main section you can turn to would be May - Aug 2007 for Chocolateeyes, found within here:

Choc threads

I'm crazy-busy at work today, but here are a couple of summaries of my sitch that I've saved in my personal archives:


My Story:

I actually had two main confrontations with my wife. Initially, I had suspicions, based on the way she was acting and some of the things she was googling on the computer (I had a keylogger). Naturally, she denied it -- twice.

Then one night I was out of town, at my dad's 80th birthday party, and she stayed home with the kids. I got an e-mail on my BlackBerry from my keylogger, showing that she was searching "older woman/younger man" and "sexual positions" etc. on the home computer. I felt sick to my stomach, and like an ox was standing on my chest. I couldn't breathe, and I didn't know if I should tell my folks and my siblings, or try to keep it to myself.

I was up all night, distraught, and phoned my wife and confronted her around midnight. "You're up late," I said. "Yeah, I couldn't sleep," she replied. She sounded nervous. "What are you doing?" I asked, and she could tell something was wrong. "Just on the computer," she said. "What's wrong?"

(pause)

"Look, I know all about you and (OM's first name), and it needs to stop. Immediately. This is incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage, and to our family." She tried to deny it at first, but I persisted (without revealing my intel), saying "Please STOP IT. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's horribly disrespectful. If you're going to lie to me, I'm just going to hang up."

She then SORT of told me the truth, denying that it had become physical (which I later found out was also a lie).

I exposed to our adult daughters that night, via a phone call. My D-then-18 already knew, as she had suspected something and her and her best friend had followed her mother one night a couple of weeks ago, and caught her coming out of a bar with the guy, and saw them get into a car together. The poor thing had been keeping this all to herself, because she didn't want to upset her daddy. She broke down on the phone and cried, and so did I.

I told both her and her sister (D-then-20) that I loved their mother very much, did NOT want a divorce, but I also wasn't going tolerate this kind of disrespect. I WOULD NOT LIVE IN AN OPEN MARRIAGE. They both said they understood, and respected my position. D18 wanted to confront OM that next day, and I talked her down, and told them both just to wait until I got back from my trip and we could discuss it as a family.

I also exposed to my parents and siblings the next morning, as I felt I needed their support. In the ensuing couple of weeks, I gave my wife repeated chances to end the affair -- she refused 5-6x -- and then I finally exposed to her parents, OM's parents (he lived with his parents!) and their employer, on whose premises the affair was partly taking place. Since the kid was also studying to become a cop, and was going thru the Academy, I found out that there was a "public review" process and I wrote a letter to his file, exposing their affair, and opposing his candidacy to become a police officer.

About 50 days in, I filed for divorce, after she repeatedly threatened to divorce ME. I felt I needed to protect myself, and decided to go for full custody of our boys.

Despite all of this, and my tightening the finances to stop paying for anything that was enabling her affair (cellphone, plastic surgery payment, haircoloring, etc.), her affair continued -- heated up -- for 60 days. I then RE-confronted her, with the "NO MORE DECEIT" confrontation (it's all in my old Chocolateeyes threads; Summer of 2007). This re-confrontation took place in her car, in a department store parking lot, when I told her one evening that "we need to talk." I had decided that while I may not be able to stop her from having an affair, I damned sure wasn't going to let her continue to LIE about it to her parents and to our adult daughters, and try to say that I was being "paranoid" and accusing HER, when everything I was claiming was 100% TRUE.

I told her at this meeting "you either tell them, or I will, and I will show them my evidence."

I gave her 5 minutes to decide.

She told them.

It took about another month before she fully ended it and begged me to take her back, but make no mistake -- that night was basically the beginning of the death of her affair. She had one backslide, about 2 weeks into no-contact/transparency, which she self-confessed, and we got thru it. After two 3-month "stays" of the divorce action, I finally withdrew it the following Spring.

We had fits and starts over the next couple of years, nearing divorce twice (even met with the mediator), ending with a mutually-agreed-upon separation this summer, where we would try to date each other, but each would date other people (she had initially INSISTED on this, and I initially said it was a DEALBREAKER. I then changed my mind, based mostly on Gucci's and Robx's stuff on here). Not two weeks into that arrangement, she called me in tears (I was on my one and only "date"), and long story short, I moved back in with her and we agreed to MC and we fully reconciled.

We've had some tough moments, but our marriage is stronger than it's ever been. The MC is fantastic (had been my wife's IC), holds our feet to the fire, and we're finally starting to deal with some of our sex-starved marriage issues and my wife's problems with intimacy. Turns out MWD's books (along with Harley, Glass and some of my other faves) were all over the MC's office! I knew I had found the right place for us. My wife and I are better friends than we have ever been, have ML more in the past 3 months than we had in the past six YEARS, and I'd say we are "Piecing" at this point, to use the DB phrase.

I hope that helps. That's an awfully long answer to a short question, but I thought I'd just put it all out there.

Puppy

I should add as a P.S.

Throughout all of these "tough stances," I maintained a "loving detachment" towards my wayward wife. Oh, we had our moments -- three or four real blow-ups -- but for the most part, we managed to keep things civil. I laid out some boundaries (no family finances used to enable your affair, no TMing or phoning OM from inside our home, no TMing or phoning OM in front of our sons, from ANYWHERE, if you're going to come home after 1am, don't bother coming home, etc.), and I must say, she respected them almost completely.

The "loving" part of "loving detachment" comes easier for you, trust me, when you maintain full intel ("snooping") and you hear and see the things that I heard and saw. But I did try to "shine a light back towards the marriage, even as I never wavered from my Main Boundary ("I will not live in an open marriage") and my sub-boundaries mentioned above. I would do occasional loving Acts of Service for my wife, such as pulling her car in the garage late at nite, or covering her with a blanket when she fell asleep on the couch, kissing her on the forehead, etc.

I believe that this "hybrid" approach -- aggressive confrontation & exposure, firm boundaries, cut off all financial enabling, strong legal stance; coupled with DBing principles such as GAL, "be the better option," 180s, etc. -- is what works best when there is active infidelity involved.

Reasonable people may disagree, but this is what worked for me, and this is also what I have seen work in my time on these boards, as well as my study of literally thousands of affairs.

Puppy

-------------------------------

My timeline:



She squirmed and b*tched and moaned and screamed bloody murder at first, that I refused to sit down and talk to her. Eventually, over the course of a few weeks, as she saw that I was NOT going to be either bullied nor sweet-talked (and she tried both approaches) into sitting down and having an R talk with her, she eventually stopped trying.

I confronted my wife within 24 hours of having proof she was having an affair.

I exposed her affair within 24 hours to our adult daughters, and within two weeks to her family and her employer.

I re-confronted her on Day 60, and laid out a "No More Deceit" boundary, telling her "either you tell our daughters and your parents the truth about your relationship with (OM), or I will." I had evidence, and I told her she had five minutes to decide. Within two hours, she had told all four of them the truth -- that she wasn't "just friends" with OM, and that Puppy hadn't been lying when I told them she was having an affair.

About a week later (around Day 70), I filed for divorce, after my wife stubbornly refused to end her affair.

On Day 90, she ended her affair, and asked "what will it take?" to reconcile. I laid out my short-list of non-negotiable boundaries, and we reconciled.

There were several fits-and-starts after that, with the divorce initially being put on two 3-month "stays" before finally being withdrawn. We also separated for a couple of weeks about a year ago, and agreed to date other people, but that was short-lived, and after one "date" (drinks with a former co-worker) I agreed to move back in with her to work on our marriage. We did some MCing, still struggle with the SSM thing, but have remained great friends and partners ever since, and celebrated both our 25th wedding anniversary and the birth of our first granddaughter this Spring.

Interestingly, when my wife tearfully asked for reconciliation (and thereafter), she told me that although she HATED me at the time, and was LIVID with me for exposing her affair, she understood why I did it, RESPECTED me for it, and THANKED ME for fighting for our marriage!

Puppy

[alpha99]

Thanks Starksy. I have just read your overview and I will go through the link you posted.

[twinmom]

Alpha, I am a stay at home mom. I am an only child and have almost no relationship with my parents. I DO have wonderful friends but just know it is possible to get through this.

I was pregnant when my H walked out and moved in with another woman. Told me he didn't love me, wanted a divorce so he could marry OW and that he might want kids with OW. It was HARD to see him.

You CAN do things. Since you don't have the kids right now go get ANY job. Just to keep you busy. Whatever you can do to keep your mind busy. I know it's hard.