Complex No. 6 - The turtle and the rabbit

[Complex]

Bad bad bad day
I woke up. W in the living room, annoyed sort of. And then she starts the conversation: we need to physically separate! She goes on with how she is 100% convinced she wants to move forward with the separation. Sounding very convinced. I basically gave her my boundary spiel...maybe I was a touch too pursuing but I made things clear. But of course her doors are 100% shut still.
Feels like non of what I did worked at all.
She told me she will even serve me papers if she has to. But we can make it friendly too. She is afraid that I'll make this D nasty and drag it out. I don't know what I should say to that.
I also told her I beleve in we can have a wonderful R that I believe in it, but I'm moving on with or without her. Maybe that was pursuing
Oh man this is frustrating. For her too...not good .....

[alpha99]

Sorry to hear that complex,

It sounds like you've had a rough day. It seems to me, of course I'm no expert, that you did the right thing in telling her you don't want D. My last session with DB coach said be consistent over D, if you don't want it and have said that, then continue to say that when the topic comes up.

Do you feel you were pursuing at all? Any idea what may have prompted her sudden decision? Is there any way you could give her space for a few days to get to miss you? Any relatives or friends you coukd visit for a few days?

[Complex]

In the end I actually said sth like I'm sorry you can't see the person I was when we got married. She replied: it wasn't right in the first place. We can continue and be miserable for ever. Me: happiness comes within yourself. W: I am happy with myself. But a R doesnt make just living together wearing rings. Me: you are right, you 'make' it.....W leaves frustrated.

She's on her way to her friend (the enabler) helping her moving 50 miles away...good thing, I bet she'll make her feel better, that stupid D'd btch.

I wonder how well/not so well I did in all this today. I shouldn't have gotten into the discussion too much but if I don't say much she thinks I'm in denial which frustrates her even more. She actually still thinks I am. I made some strong boundary statements today tho. So at least that was ok. But in general W still doesn't seem to believe what I say OR do and strictly follows her own script

She also told me there's NC to OM, which I believe her bc it syncs with all recent action.

I still believe in it. But I wonder if I should just let her go and be done with this. It's so sad. I still believe in her being better than this but she keeps proving me wrong first time in weeks I'm crying. Looks like I still had some expectations deep down

[alpha99]

Have a good cry, get it all out. When you feel you're done have a think back to a happier time and what you're fighting for. Your W still seems to have her mind elsewhere. It seems her friend who is D is offering her a biased shoulder. I feel so sorry for you, but remember, we all have set backs and it ain't over til it's over. Good luck.

[Complex]

She also told me again how sorry she is. That she loves me and cares for me but just not that way and everything was wrong from the beginning.
She wants to help me to find a place, even pay me alimony.
I didn't respond to her "offerings".
I set my boundaries well but it's just so damn frustrating.

Trigger today was probably I walked into the kitchen this morning with underwear. Lol. Since we are no couple I cannot do this she said.

I'm just sooo mad again. It's so ridiculous. It's nothing but a character question, a question of what a commitment means. The best thing is that she believes I will understand "one day". Really?
How deep does she has to fall to understand herself one day?

I still understand her position tho. How can she believe in it already after all that happened. She's not in my head either. She admitted she basically dumped our M in like 3 months. But she KNOWS it's not the right thing so she wants to move on quickly before everything gets worse.

I almost sent her this text, I didn't tho:
I hope you understand that I gave my personal position an awful lot of thought too. I don't want a superficial relationship either. I want a deep one too, one of the next level. I wasn't ready for that in the past. Now I am. I am absolutely convinced we can build it and I value my vows. BUT by no means I'll pursue or force you to do anything anymore. You are you. Never would I ever want to change that ever again! You are a free human being. But so am I.

[Complex]

Had more chat with her mom today. It sounds like W is pretty much turning against her family. A lot of people tried to approach her. She wouldn't talk to anyone. Her brother leaked to our mutual friends too. Everyone disagrees.
Dangerous situation probably. But right now I give a damn!
I'm extremely mad again. And honestly, if she does what she said, moves forward and quick D me..so be it. I won't help her, I'll take what I'm entitled to. She will lose everything. And ok, I'll be bitter about this for the rest of my life but eventually I'll forgive myself and her and find my happiness elsewhere, with someone who deserves it.
"It was all a big mistake" she said...I should find a girlfriend or marry someone else....
I have to sleep over my bad emotions and anger, maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. But after today I think I've reached another point after which I can move on better. I took enough sh*t from her. It's time I stand very tall for what I personally stand for!!! I'm sick of the games she's playing. I'll control this from this day on in my terms!
I'm excited to read this angry text again tomorrow and see where I stand. But one thing is for sure: I'll be standing!!!!

[25yearsmlc]

She also told me again how sorry she is. That she loves me and cares for me but just not that way and everything was wrong from the beginning.
She wants to help me to find a place, even pay me alimony.
I didn't respond to her "offerings".
I set my boundaries well but it's just so damn frustrating.


I know all this^^^ hurts. I'm sorry for your pain.

Still, I hope you can see that in HER WAY, she seems to be trying to be in "damage control" mode now. NOT B/c she feels shame, but b/c she feels sympathy for you. MOST WAS's DO NOT.


Maybe you should join her in the Damage Control mode...?


Mostly I hope you will Stop taking every single thing she says, in the worst possible light.

I think she is sincere and I don't see any upside to you negating that. I think you are making it worse for yourself and certainly for her. Maybe obstructing her is your goal but I really don't see the benefit to it, (for YOU, let alone her).


Trigger today was probably I walked into the kitchen this morning with underwear. Lol. Since we are no couple I cannot do this she said.

I'm just sooo mad again. It's so ridiculous. It's nothing but a character question,


IMO,< THIS^^^ is where you repeat your mistake & stay stuck...you condemn her and get yourself all worked up again,

even when she makes offers to your benefit, that almost no other Walkaway wife would...

Plus you end up sounding judgemental and you gloss over your part in this, again.

My question for you is, HOW does condemning and judging her, help you?



a question of what a commitment means. The best thing is that she believes I will understand "one day". Really?
How deep does she has to fall to understand herself one day?

I still understand her position tho. How can she believe in it already after all that happened.

Read your words^^^ again Complex...IF You really do understand her position -- then stop the talking and DO the walking.

That ^^ is a phrase Americans use that says, basically, "action speaks louder than words".

Tell us, What has SHE SEEN from you that is different - and for how long? A week or a month? And what was it that was so new for you?

Compared with how long she saw the "not so busy" Complex, you must admit it will take her time to believe in any changes you may be making.

I read somewhere that for every year of "unwanted behavior", it takes at least a month of new changes for a spouse to SEE the change, plus more time for them to believe it's real OR lasting...

From what you write here, I don't think any of your changes have been consistent for a single month. Sorry Complex, I know that's hard to hear, but it's true. She really hasn't got a solid reason to believe you are different and that you can or will meet her needs in the long run.

You harp on her character (repeatedly) but evidently even you think she's being honest about OM and that she is doing what you SAY you would expect i.e. that if she wants to date OM she should divorce you first. Well, that's what she is doing, correct?

As painful and gut wrenching as that must be, it is NOT a reason for you to malign her more. It's just the opposite.

You can't determine that she must be a bad person b/c she does not want to be married to you WHILE you admit you did not live up to your promises or her expectations

and you admit on some days, that you did not live up to Your own expectations either.

I suggest you focus on making changes for yourself, while knowing that it's the only possible way to get thru to her anyhow. No more about how bad & wrong she is.

That^^ helps no one, including you.

She's not in my head either. She admitted she basically dumped our M in like 3 months. But she KNOWS it's not the right thing so she wants to move on quickly before everything gets worse.

Do you see how you make yourself feel worse this way? You besmirch her but you don't benefit. If you want to feel better about yourself, you need NOT tear her down; just "up" yourself and feel good about what you are creating and doing.

Make sense?

I almost sent her this text, I didn't tho:
I hope you understand that I gave my personal position an awful lot of thought too. I don't want a superficial relationship either. I want a deep one too, one of the next level. I wasn't ready for that in the past. Now I am.


It's hard to be honest about this now, so I admire your candor. But you need to take a look at your admission. You were NOT in a deep loving marriage or one that connected at a level SHE needed...

"now" you feel you are ready for it. You have been married a few years and in those years, evidently, she felt lonely on a deep & spiritual level. The marriage was a shallow one for her and now, even you can see that.

Have you truly reflected on this?

I am absolutely convinced we can build it and I value my vows. BUT by no means I'll pursue or force you to do anything anymore. You are you. Never would I ever want to change that ever again! You are a free human being. But so am I.

Not sure what the goal of ^^^ this is. No offense Complex, but you are mostly stating the obvious. ---

Are you just restating that you "value" your vows to make the point that she must not?

I can't say if that is even true, but I can say that it won't help for you to suggest it.

What do you really want her to know, now? What is it you want to say to her?

Figure that^^ out, and be able to say it concisely. Let us know, too.

But again, it's NOT words she needs from you. It is new/different behavior.

Otherwise, she has No reason to believe that marriage to you now, would be any better or different than before.

And before, was NOT enough for her so she wanted out (AND you now admit it was not a deep marriage for you either.)

So you both want a deeper marriage now. She does not believe you are capable of that with her.

So what are you DOING (not just saying) that would show her - you/marriage can be deeper?

Because no one returns to marriage they left,

unless

they believe it can be better/different than before.

[25yearsmlc]

Had more chat with her mom today. It sounds like W is pretty much turning against her family. A lot of people tried to approach her. She wouldn't talk to anyone. Her brother leaked to our mutual friends too. Everyone disagrees.
Dangerous situation probably. But right now I give a damn!
I'm extremely mad again. And honestly, if she does what she said, moves forward and quick D me..so be it. I won't help her, I'll take what I'm entitled to. She will lose everything. And ok, I'll be bitter about this for the rest of my life but eventually I'll forgive myself and her and find my happiness elsewhere, with someone who deserves it.
"It was all a big mistake" she said...I should find a girlfriend or marry someone else....

You need to see how back & forth you go here (Below).

I say this NOT B/c I was fully consistent in my journey from day one, but b/c you must see how You appear in HER EYES...

Watch your inconsistencies and flip flops.



I have to sleep over my bad emotions and anger, maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. But

after today I think I've reached another point after which I can move on better. I took enough sh*t from her.

So you are saying you "Can move on better"...


It's time I stand very tall for what I personally stand for!!! I'm sick of the games she's playing. I'll control this from this day on in my terms!

After saying you won't try to control her, and that you "Can move on", you now say you will "Stand...for what you personally stand for"....(??) and

you will "control this from this say on..." ( ??) Confusing.

I'm excited to read this angry text again tomorrow and see where I stand.

"Because I have no control over how I feel"?? I will "see where I stand"....

(To me, Complex, this sounds like someone who moves and changes, the way leaves move when the wind blows. Does it sound very directed to you?).

But one thing is for sure: I'll be standing!!!!

Complex, here are some phrases You used about your path.


"Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow",

"I can move on",

I will be "standing tall, tomorrow I will "see where I stand", etc.

Ponder ^^ those a minute, okay?

Complex, you probably think I'm picking on you. Really I want you to see how you present yourself - so you can see the reason your wife sees you as Not very different yet.

You want her to see a Strong, directed adult Man, committed to his work and his relationships, correct?

How do you think you can do more that would support ^^ these images?

[Complex]

Not sure how to thank you enough for your view. Again incredibly helpful.
I will answer everything in detail later. It gave me a very good insight and better perspective again. Very thankful!

[Complex]

I know all this^^^ hurts. I'm sorry for your pain.


I truly appreciate 25yr. That was a rough day but I have to say I am in a much better place than weeks ago. I catch myself much faster.


Still, I hope you can see that in HER WAY, she seems to be trying to be in "damage control" mode now. NOT B/c she feels shame, but b/c she feels sympathy for you. MOST WAS's DO NOT.


Maybe you should join her in the Damage Control mode...?


Very good observation. I am glad you pointed this out. It is important to know. I know she values me a lot, thinking in high terms of me.
HOW should I join her controlling damage? I don't know exactly what you mean.

I think she is sincere and I don't see any upside to you negating that. I think you are making it worse for yourself and certainly for her. Maybe obstructing her is your goal but I really don't see the benefit to it, (for YOU, let alone her).


THAT I thought was a great advice. Because I know she is sincere. Many times people advised me tho to not believe anything she is saying, but in my case that eventually hurt me more than it was beneficial. Because I lost a lot of trust between us. Yes, she did hide certain things but she hardly ever lied me in the face.
But I am still judging her and obstruct her behavior, although she is actually being pretty nice about things. Which is kind of scary because it shows how conscious she is about her decision and reasons to leave me that she doesn't see ANY sort of a chance for reconciliation and that our M could be better.
I will use this advice tho to understand her better. To understand "the works of her soul" better...that is what she told me once that she wants that from a partner.

So that is what SHE needs and wants right? Fair enough, who doesn't want that. But after all shouldn't we be aware of that his kind of thinking tends to be unrealistic "Disney"-Love...to some extend at least, I don't want to exaggerate this thought. Understanding the works of someone else's soul doesn't come over night either. It is also object/subject of work and time. None of my complaints change how she is thinking. Thoughts are free and to the people that think them, they are the truth. But maybe they are limited in the ability to see things from a different light?! Plus you need to be willing to let the other person into the works of your soul too by open heart. If you decide to work on your marriage, which is what we briefly did, her heart and soul was closed to me. I tried hard to understand her, get on a level with her. Maybe it was too forced, didn't feel natural enough, and as we all know women catch that very fast.
I don't want to get too philosophical, I just feel like her view is too one sided, obviously and there was never an open heart try. But you know what...maybe she IS right. We match in many many points, we could be the best couple ever, but then character wise there are definitely conflict points...or should I say there is something that just doesn't want to match. It is hard to describe. It could be that we maybe aren't meant to be or it could be a flaw in our characters that we didn't manage to overcome in our relationship.

I am a believer tho. I believe in our M, in us a people, that we have the ability to overcome our differences. But only with love and work on both sides. Both not equally given at this time.


IMO,< THIS^^^ is where you repeat your mistake & stay stuck...you condemn her and get yourself all worked up again,

even when she makes offers to your benefit, that almost no other Walkaway wife would...

Plus you end up sounding judgmental and you gloss over your part in this, again.

My question for you is, HOW does condemning and judging her, help you?


This part you commented I was pretty mad. The only benefit is actually a selfish one. It makes you (me), temporarily, feel better. I have to stop that, but sometime you just need to vent. I am trying to control myself as good as I can. In front of W I do not let my emotions flow like this anymore, I greatly improved with that.


Tell us, What has SHE SEEN from you that is different - and for how long? A week or a month? And what was it that was so new for you?

Most of my changes actually started after I hit rock bottom in January, twice in a row. After the second time, which was end of Jan I felt like I finally got my sh*t together. And since 3-4 weeks my meds are working better constantly. Since 1-2 weeks I feel like a different person. Not different actually, more like the OLD ME. SO YES, it's been very recent. But also very drastic.
- I am not complaining anymore, less grumpy, more positive, changed my attitude, less judgmental (maybe not towards W as you mentioned)
- I am working out again, very strict routine multiple times a week, with no exceptions! Gained some muscle. Eat much healthier (W comment 3 days ago: "Oh, so you are all healthy now, huh?")
- College going very well, I am very steady, have good grades/results, never miss class
- I get up in the morning, earlier than I used to, very constant
- I stopped snooping completely and stopped any forms of trying to control W
- I am listening better and validate
- My morals and values improved, I just feel like a better human being. I always was but maybe some of the developments came to fast for W to believe, so she might still think I am faking it to win her back...that might actually be valid for many of my improvements still, because they were very recent and some of them drastic.
And it will take more time for sure.

My W is smart, you know, I am sure she sees what I am doing better and she is probably happy for me. But like you said and I realized, all the above factors play more of a minor role in why W wants to leave. It all boils down to life-goals/career-thinking/spiritual compatibility for her IMO. And her mind is made up at this time. And as far as I, and everyone else, know her...she is a stubborn head And all this is serious live affecting stuff, and it will take a lot more than convincing. It is a major decision, she would basically have to marry me all over again.The step for reconciliation is humongous. After all MWD calls it a marathon. And I understand I have to do all this for myself too. Because I will benefit from it the rest of my life.


You can't determine that she must be a bad person b/c she does not want to be married to you WHILE you admit you did not live up to your promises or her expectations

and you admit on some days, that you did not live up to Your own expectations either.
I suggest you focus on making changes for yourself, while knowing that it's the only possible way to get thru to her anyhow. No more about how bad & wrong she is.

That^^ helps no one, including you.

I answered a lot of this in my evaluation above. But all I actually need to say to this is: Y E S ! You are right!


It's hard to be honest about this now, so I admire your candor. But you need to take a look at your admission. You were NOT in a deep loving marriage or one that connected at a level SHE needed...

"now" you feel you are ready for it. You have been married a few years and in those years, evidently, she felt lonely on a deep & spiritual level. The marriage was a shallow one for her and now, even you can see that.

Have you truly reflected on this?


I absolutely did. Very late in my sitch tho. But that is why I married her, right? And that is why I am here. To work through the issues, no matter how big they are. And I am willing to give my absolute best, which I am right now (ok we can ALWAYS do better...but you get the point). Our marriage deserves a chance to find out the truth, because the truth lies somewhere in the middle usually....EVERY marriage here deserves a second chance....it's M. I guess I stated the obvious again...like in the next paragraph

I will get back to this and answer the rest, and also the most important questions later, time passed too fast and I have to go to college