Alpha and WAW - part 2

[Train]

Just to build on this point, a personal experience from a woman's POV:

My H is a workhorse. His stability and work ethics were the top two reasons I was attracted to him in the first place. In 2010, and without my full support, he changed jobs and industries (in an effort to "find happiness") and took a massive paycut (about 50%). Our house almost ended up in foreclosure because we could not keep our heads above water, and H didn't seem to care. It wasn't feasible for me to go back to work because my S8 was still a toddler, and my wages would have done little more than pay for childcare. (I would also later discover I was pregnant with D3.)

I lost an enormous amount of respect for H during that time. And, looking back, it's exactly when everything in our M started going downhill, leading to BD and the A in 2014.

But here's the kicker: By 2014, H was back to working two jobs ... both of which were in the industry he had left in 2010. We were caught up on bills and even started having enough to enjoy life a little again. That stability was enough to keep me solidly planted in our M and for H to earn back some of the respect I had lost for him in the years prior. But I had stopped meeting HIS needs in the meantime. And - wham! - the BD and A. Vicious cycle.

All that to say: it's true. Women really and truly value financial stability. We seem hard-wired for that, for better or worse. And I may be reaching here, but judging from personal experience and discussions I've had with H since he's been back home, I think men are hard-wired to provide and to succeed. And if a man feels his W is the breadwinner or more successful than he is, professionally? Sometimes - perhaps without even noticing it - I think it can damage his ego and his self-confidence. And if that's the case, he will have entered the nasty, vicious cycle. Because a woman loves and admires a *confident* man.

[alpha99]

Hi toots

You make a very good point, and I'm sure there's a lot of truth in that. In our case the last few years have been the most financially secure of our 10 years together. W's job meant We could overpay on mortgage, go on 11 holidays in a 2 year period, and have spare cash for things. Two things wrong for us though, to maximise every possibility regarding hols etc, I took tight control over finances. Too tight. W has resentment over that since she was main earner. Secondly, I have no problem with W earning more than me, I felt I was sacrificing a career to be at home, and incidentally I am the better parent by far with the kids no ego here, its just true). Time at home for me when W at work also lead to resentment. Thinking back, last Christmas I had two weeks off.over the Christmas period, w knew for weeks in advane she had to work Christmas eve, Christmas day, New years eve. She was not happy at that or at me and my time off. Again, with kids off school.there wasn't much.choice given our setup, but how now I wish the tables had turned and it was me working and her at home. No doubt her A wouldnt have taken place then and we wouldnt be here.

[alpha99]

I'm off to the language 'meet up' in a minute. This is probably the first time in my life I have voluntarily done something like this. I joined the group 2 years ago but my own (well hidden) lack of confidence and general shyness had stopped me going. W, family, and friends see me as really confident, nothing bothering me, tell people what I think. Truth is that's been a front to hide my real shyness. As part of GAL I'm facing up to this for ME so that from now on I can make the most of any opportunity that comes my way instead of ducking out of it.

[Complex]

I want to add sth: it's not only that women like security and their H to have a stable good job to provide for their family. They also want to see their H's to be passionate about something, and maybe not cars or sports if you know what I mean. Passion for what they are doing. Having a goal. Confidence. These things make us men very attractive.
What are you passionate about?

And in general you need to work on your detachment. It's very hard if you seeW constantly. It was the same for me. But I somehow managed it. My meds probably helped me. If you think you are detached, you're wrong. It's a long process and needs a lot of soul work and GAL. But you will know when you get there. Of course you'll have ups and downs still. I do all the time, but the "good days" got so much better and the had ones less, and less worse. Look at toots, she just had a pretty bad down day too, her sitch is going on for a longer time.
You asked about techniques. Not easy to answer. The technique is: detaching. Limit your contact to W. I know she's around, maybe just try to observe yourself in which situations the contact or conversation was not necessary. Think about 'why' are you talking with her right now? Just get more aware of yourself of what you are doing. The clearer the view gets the more you'll be detached.

[alpha99]

Thanks complex,

So if I understand correctly then contact should be to a minimum and when I do see her no unnecessary conversation? The first part has been quite easy, I've hardly called/texted for about 2 weeks (only kid stuff really). My problem is doing LRT when I see her every day. If we had no kids it would be simple. Since we do I'm spending time each day sat in the same room as her. In these cases I've.made neighbourly conversation like 'oh, its quite cold outside today, isn't it? And 'I saw so and so at school today. I'm confused as I thought initiating non R conversations in this manner was OK. I focus on the kids when I'm there but speak a little to her about every day stuff. Should I stop this? A week or two ago we had a 20 min car journey to her mum's house where I didn't speak to her at all. In that case she got incredibly angry. When I continued in a similar vein over a day or two she just got angrier.

I guess my problem is detaching without appearing cold or rude.

Last night's language meet up went great. I thoroughly enjoyed it. 2 hours of Italian conversation. The whole time no thoughts of my sitch. I came out of it buzzing and the thought I had was to call W and say how good it had been. Then I remembered I can't. That lowered my mood and took the edge off things.

So today, should I do another big warm hello when I knock on the door? Or should it be a breezy hi, get the kids, and go? I know the pull between logic and counter intuitive/effective. I know consistency is key. Im just struggling to find the right path in interactions: be neifhbourly nice, day to day conversation in a breezy, upbeat manner, or withdraw, speak less, still smile and be upbeat but not initiate conversation, not to expand on things if she speaks etc

[alpha99]

Well, just been for kids. As I pull up W comes out of house alone saying she has something to ask: she's not getting on with her mum (that didn't take long haha) and once again wants to move back home and I move out. I said she was free to move back home but I wouldn't be moving out. She asked why I wouldn't. I said because I own the house too and can't move in, out, in, out on her every whim. She threw a fit and said she could be nasty and go to a solicitor cos she has the kids and has a right to move in if she wants to but can't live with me so I have to move out. She said she'd have to move into a hotel. I don't think she can afford one, that's just plain crazy. Again, I repeated she could home with kids but I would be staying, and whatever she does regarding solicitors is her decision, and that I didn't want to discuss it further in front of the kids. It was a 30 sec conversation. I greeted her with a warm hello when she first approached. She was of course distracted by her imminent question.

She came with me in car to school with kids. Instead if making.conversation, for the most part I had a cd on and sang along loudly. I also spoke to the kids about our trip out tonight. They are very excited. I did say one or two things to W, day to day stuff, nothing major, just not to appear ignorant.

Her life seems no bed of roses right now, bills to pay, falling out with her mum, can't get her own way over house. She made a call en route to school to fellow school mum to meet at school and go shopping. We arrived at school a little early and she got out of car to make a secret call to someone. I'm learning not to try and mind read who to. Hopefully I handled this whole thing well, stayed calm, in control, set a boundary, validated her decisions without agreeing, got kids' excited over tea, remained upbeat and polite to W before and after her requests.

Finally, she also asked if I had separated out my stuff that I wanted. I said I hadn't (I'm in no rush). She complained it was never going to happen. I just said I didn't want to talk about things in front of the kids. She huffed and said you never do.

[alpha99]

Oh, I forgot to add: she said her mum was trying to tell her what to do. Now, limiting the mind reading I think it could be one of two things:

Telling W how to look after kids

Or

Telling W to reconsider. The reason I say this is that her mum has been warming to me the last few days. She made me a cup of tea and gave me biscuits yesterday. We had a short, pleasant exchange about the weather, the kids etc. She asked if I wanted to stay whilst kids ate their tea yesterday. I think she has seen a big change in me, regardless of whether that's what she is talking to W about or not. It would be good to get them onside. Her father also has appeared more concerned about me, asking how I am since I backslid the other day. I think he sees the pain I'm in, the situation for the kids, w's stubbornness and feels empathetic to me. As I wrote previously, he did say he was trying to drill into W how she might rethink things.

I don't know if them pressuring her (if that's what they're doing) is a good or bad thing, but DB coach asked if they were onside as it would help. I said no the other day, but maybe if they get onboard that might be a positive thing.

W wouldn't stand with me in playground. She left her bag in the car, and after I left her and said goodbye, see you later (she said it back) she called and came to get her bag. I was sat in car. As she approached I acted as if, gave her a big smile. She smiled back quite warmly for a brief moment, as if she forgot herself, before it faded. We exchanged the bag and said see you later again.

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, I think your stance is a reasonable one and you should stick with it. Sounds as though it was well delivered.

My only comment would be, following that - singing loudly in the car to the CD. I think that could come across as uncaring. Best to maintain a steady (rather than joyful) demeanour following exchanges like that IMHO.....

[Complex]

That, and rather let her initiate the small talk.

[alpha99]

Thanks Toots, Complex,

I'm taking all that on board. I'm not sure if I overdid the singing, but I understand what you mean and how it might have been perceived.