To Stir Or Not to Stir That Pot

[Gerda]

Gerda,
I do understand how you feel and the fact that he is still acting in a "rageful" manner is not healthy for you or your children.

Thank you again, Job, for all your help and wise words. I feel narcissistic to answer all your questions as if everyone wants to read about this! But --

Is my situation so different? Isn't everyone whose spouse is in replay facing that kind of spewing? I think maybe it just seems more intense because my prodigal lives with us, there is no way to have less contact except that he is mostly not around. But he is here every night and has been since bomb drop even when he was having an EA (I don't know if they ever met in person but they talked on phone and e-mail constantly and I know he called her, "my secret other wife" because i unfortunately saw this on his phone before I vowed no snooping). He does peer out of the fog once in a while and is kind to my daughter mostly and very affectionate with her. (Someone posted her about how they choose the least judgmental child for that, and that's it on the nose, she is an angel.) Yesterday after being mean to my son he apologized and told him he'd always be there for him even though he had to live by "certain principles."

As I stated in my posting to you on the Detachment thread, when he's not happy about something, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and walk away, i.e., no discussions or apologies unless it's something that you think requires an apology. Can you provide us w/some examples of things he's said and we can help you w/some generic responses?

About those rages, if he's raging at you or the children, you need to call him on it. You could address him as "h, whatever the problem is, I will be happy to discuss it with you when you calm down." Then walk away. You and your children do not need to be subjected to this behavior.

I know these things might sound obvious to you, but what you wrote above is really helpful to me. I read it earlier and tried it not only with my husband but my son and was surprised at how well it worked to keep ME detached, let alone what effect it had on either of them. (Things are a lot better with my son, by the way. Still some rages but much better and a lot of love between us.)

I included that e-mail because that's the kind of thing he says. I'm almost ashamed to post it here. Yesterday when we had a disagreement with my son at dinner because my son was refusing to wear a shirt, I told my son he could eat on the stairs after my husband said he couldn't eat at all. My H got really mad, in a weird way he had been trying to support my telling my son to put on a shirt, I guess, but his response was so rageful and so unreasonable considering that he never eats with us and never parents the children at all, but just once in a while picks one thing like that, and my son is suffering so much already, I wasn't going to deny him dinner because of a shirt! Anyway, after I allowed my son to leave the room and eat on the stairs, my husband started with the spewing, and said that if I would back down for something like that, "You deserve to be walked on." I took the bait, albeit it quietly and with a kind voice. I said, "How can you speak to your wife like that in front of your children? How can you justify yourself?" And then I said that I felt sorry for him because he could only be in so much pain where he was, and that he was living the Fall. Yeah, i did it all wrong. Then I remembered I wasn't supposed to do that so I left the table and put on my shoes and ran to church and cried my heart out and prayed and came back with a better sense of detachment and took my kids out for ice cream!

This is the strangest email that I have ever read. He's writing it as if he's communicating w/someone other than you. Does he always communicate w/you this way? It's very telling in the fact that he grew up being the second fiddle and he doesn't want that for his children. What was his home life like? Did they not parent or did they just focus on their jobs? He certainly has stated that he can't do both, i.e., work and be a parent. Apparently in his mind it's all black and white and it has to be one or the other.

Yes, I get e-mails like that often. He talks like that now. He is an academic. He was working on his dissertation for many years and couldn't finish. Then when the MLC hit, he changed his topic from a 16th Century Catholic poet to a modern poet who "walks the razor's edge to find God," his way to justify all his bad behavior, I guess. He left the church but says that he can't go inside a church because he can't face Christ. He seems sort of proud about my conversion even though he hates God right now.

My husband grew up in an extremely abusive household. His father is sort of a monster. My husband ran away many times, sometimes even slept in the park. He was always lonely, always neglected. His mother loved him but ultimately betrayed him by never protecting him from his father. She has mostly disappeared from our lives during this -- she used to come to us a few times a year to help me with the kids, now nothing at all, she came for my surgery but nothing else. She doesn't like to talk to me about it because I upset her too much, and she sometimes says things like, "Well, it is really difficult to live with the way you run that house," or "Why do you have to make everything into such a drama?" I have tried to tell her about MLC but she refuses to hear anything about it. Once she told me that my H's father always said " he was rotten to the core" -- this was her attempt to be supportive! It made me feel so bad for him and understand how deep is his pain.

One reason I stopped posting here is because some of the posts get very cynical and harsh and I ended up feeling like I was betraying him somehow by inviting people to call him names or be sarcastic about him. He was such a wonderful good man before this. He was an amazing father. He also loved God. I'm not saying he was perfect, but I needed a huge transformation myself, I am very ashamed of the kind of wife I was before I changed as a result of this crisis. No one believes in him anymore, not even his parents. I want to keep believing in the man I know is locked in there somewhere. I feel like I can see him wrestling with the darkness every time I look at him.

Oh my goodness, i am embarrassed that I wrote so much! Oh well....

[Gerda]

I do appreciate your taking the time to read my posts and write back.

My husband was an amazing man before. It seems from your post though that you are coming from another forum and don't know that much about MLC. He is following the MLC script to the letter. This is a comfort to me, actually, all the insanity seems to be part of a regular pattern that runs a certain predictably unpredictable course. He is completely transformed into the opposite of who he was before. From what I have read, he needs to go through this tunnel alone and I have to choose to stick around or not while he does.

[kml]

"His mother loved him but ultimately betrayed him by not protecting him from his father"

Do you see how you might be making this same mistake with your son, not protecting him from the verbal abuse of your husband?

What you have described here seems beyond the ordinary irritability and selfishness of the average MLCer. He's verbally abusive, to you and your son, and he has grandiose thinking (he's going to change the world with his intellect? Really? A guy who couldn't finish his dissertation, in a field that will not likely contribute to the finances of the family?)

Now, if he really was an amazing husband and father in the past, I would be seriously concerned about the possibilty of a medical issue, bipolar disorder, brain tumor or drug addiction. I've seen tons of crazy MLC behavior here, but this is different....something more is going on here. Either he was always kind of abusive and just got worse in MLC and you are in denial about it, or he has a physiologic reason for his new onset mental instability.

He just told you that he doesn't respect you, in his comments about your son and the shirt business. You need to start standing up for yourself and your kids. You don't have to get into it with him over everything, but be careful you aren't just being a doormat either. He won't respect you for letting him abuse you.

[beatrice]

Gerda, my xh was a very distinguished academic, with many books and articles to his name. Prior to MLC he was a kind loyal and supportive husband and we had many happy years together. I have also gone through mastectomy and reconstruction on my own, and I share your faith (although I don't think I am as good a Christian as you).

From where I am sitting your xh seems mentally ill beyond MLC script. Mine left me, had affairs and was very very abusive to me. Had he stayed around I would have asked him to leave for his sake and mine. I am not sure it is OK to support someone who is behaving like this.

Please do not construe this as harsh or critical. I admire those who take the high road, but this could take many many years. Would you take a few minutes to reconsider if you might be enabling him rather than helping through a hard time?

[job]

Gerda,
Why are you ashamed to post what is going on? You need an outlet because right now, it sounds like you have no one to talk to about the situation. So, please don't be afraid or ashamed to post here. We ALL have had spouses that have gone off the rails into crisis and each and every one of them is similar and yet, different.

Spewing is part of the crisis. They are operating on pure emotion and they can't hold that temper in. However, you are the one that described him as being "rageful". BTW, spewing is throughout the crisis and not just in replay. Your h has selected one of the children to be a "pal" with. This is very typical. Your son may remind him of himself or tends to challenge him or makes him question himself about what he's doing.

They tend to go back to a time in their young lives whereby they were emotionally stunted. Your h could be reliving his childhood by acting out like his father did w/him. As adults, they tend to talk about not wanting to be like their parents and yet, when the crisis hits, they follow the same paths that one of the parents did...generally they one that may have not been there for them. He's angry that his mother didn't speak up to his father when he was a child, i.e., the projecting on to you about the backing down and deserving to be walked on.

Gerda, what you said was okay. You are not always going to think of the proper things to say to him because he's still an angry man at this time. You did the right thing by walking away. BTW, what he said about not going into church...that's a very typical statement of someone in crisis. They've lost their way and thing that God has turned on them as well. They aren't happy people and are very disillusioned about life in general.

His crisis may take many years or him to resolve, or he may remain stuck, i.e., an angry and bitter man. I realize it's still very early on for you, but have you given any thought as to what you can do to make your life a bit better while he's there? You need to have some outlets and places to go to get away from this spewing and behavior. You may not realize it, but it's affecting your health and the health of your children.

There will come a time when you will realize that you've had enough and that's when you will decide to do something about your situation. Until that time, please continue to post here. Take away from the advice that is given what will help you and leave the rest behind.

Please take care of yourself and your children.

[Gerda]

Thank you so much for this thoughtful reply, as ever.

I think I will back off from this forum again though, because every time I post there are so many replies telling me that I am a doormat or delusional and telling me to get a divorce, etc. I hear plenty of that from the people around me. Often the replies even seem to echo what I hear from my H, that our whole marriage was always bad and I should "face reality." I only go on here hoping to get support for my stand, and techniques for getting through it. So I end up getting more upset reading most of the replies, and they make me feel hopeless. Most of the time I am very strong and hopeful, but I go on here in moments of weakness. I am sure even writing this here will illicit more of the same.

I don't know what to think about what people are saying that there is something more wrong with him than MLC. I feel like everything I read on these forums is exactly the same as my situation, just that he lives with us so it's constant.

As a child of divorce, I also know that splitting up is just another sort of misery. It doesn't fix anything, it just gives you more time without the one problem during your day. And as a very devout Christian, I do not believe in divorce or remarriage, so what I am trying to do is figure out ways to live through suffering with grace, and yes, to make my life with my kids as happy as I can.

Job, your posts are always helpful to me and maybe sometime when I am feeling very low, I will send you a pm instead.

[Gerda]

I don't agree with you but I appreciate your kind words about my faith. And I am so sorry to know that you went through the same thing with cancer. But it surely puts things in perspective!

I find that following Christ's demands of us to the letter makes life, for the most part, very clear. In the world, it's hard to remember at times, but I find that the answer to every question I have is there in Christ. That's what made me become a Christian, in fact.

[Gerda]

Rest assured, I am very careful to stand up for my kids, for them to know I do and for my H to see that I do. In moments when I say too much, I even say all the things you are saying about him becoming his dad and about the fact that I won't be like his mother, that I will not let him do that to our kids.

I still love the man that he was, and I still believe in him. And when I falter, I trust God to restore that love when the time is right. My vow was not til he became a jerk. It was til death parted us. I am now working on building a life of my own, but my hope is always for restoration of our family.

I think even if someone writes ten pages of words here, there is no way to present the fabric of our entire lives, and so that's why it's not the best idea to make sweeping psychological pronouncements on each other's actions. But I know you have the best intentions and I really appreciate that.

[Wet]

Hi Gerda, I am sorry to see you go. I respect the stand that you are taking for your marriage, and honoring your marriage vows. I understand the love you have for the man your husband was, and the trust that God is working in both of your lives now.

God bless you on your journey.

[job]

Gerda,
Please do not back away from the forum. People are only responding to what you are posting. It's true, we do not know your h as he was per-crisis...but all we can go on is the way that you have described his behavior. You need someone to talk to about this situation and we are here for you, no matter what the outcome is or will be.

It is very difficult living w/someone in crisis and yes, each one is different. I found your h's email odd because of the way he wrote it, but it was very telling of what he witnessed many years ago and now, he's gone back to that time and has to work through what transpired back then and realize that he wasn't the problem or the "bad seed", but a child trying to grow up in a world that maybe was very strict. He's got to grow up and hopefully when he does, he'll be a more mature and loving man...but we don't know what the future holds for him or for any of us. All we can do is hope and pray that he finds his way back to the real world.

God is there to support you, but God also wants you to take care of yourself and your children. He will be there to guide you, but he also wants you to do the necessary work to heal yourself. He's got your h in his hands and he will do what is necessary to heal him, but it's going to be on his time schedule and the seas may become very rough for your h along the way.

Gerda, I hate to tell you this, but you can't pm folks on this board. The pm function doesn't work, so the only way to reach me in thru the forum. I will continue to watch for your postings...but do think about sticking around. Each and every person that posts here has or is walking the path right now and yes, there are times when things are posted that we do not want to hear at this time, but later down the road, those exact postings will be what you will need to help you become stronger and even more independent.

Take care of yourself.