This need not be the end.

[25yearsmlc]

I can't believe I find myself in this position but I now have to file against W.
I don't want to, I HAVE to. It's the only way I can get the consent agreement drawn up so that she can't come back for more upon D. I called W last night to tell her that was what I had to do. We didn't argue this time, we just talked.


Maybe it's REALLY REALLY different in the UK but here, we'd have written up a property agreement and it's pretty much a contract in nature.

IT's not truly about "the marriage" - it's about the HOUSE and DEBTS...assets and liabilities, business stuff.

Your solicitor may THINK it's best to divorce now, but I cannot believe you two cannot work out a private agreement that would merge into the final divorce, IF you wanted to.

But is that really such a terrible thing if you must? B/c truly,

filing for a divorce for financial reasons is just that; filing for divorce for financial reasons.

No need to stress MORE about it or blame HER MORE than you already do...

Though you SAY you know you were "a husband that only a fool would Stay married to", now that you have done some work on yourself, you seem to feel you are entitled to more of her life.

Try to back off that claim. Try to take her words at face value, for NOW,....which is not to say that you must believe the words OR that she will always feel a certain way. We can say for sure, she won't always feel the same.

But don't attach so much of your worth to it, okay?


I told W that I can't trust her word now. Even though I want to, I can't, I said that she didn't know where she'll be in just under 2 years and I can't run the risk of her changing her mind (or having it changed by other people).

Telling her you cannot trust her word is an odd way to put it - when the reality is neither of you knows where you'll be in 2 years or 5 years, etc. Do you see how much blame you continue to lay at her feet WHILE ALSO claiming that you are "taking responsibility" for your part in getting here?

I'm not sure you can have it both ways...

So I'll file, she said this is what she wants, she's not bothered that I'm filing for unreasonable behavior.

Please do NOT ask her if this is what she wants, again.

The one thing I know will NOT HELP YOU is continually asking her questions like that.

Trust me/us on this. There is a reason we say NOT to constantly challenge their choices...b/c it forces her to defend and cement those choices

instead of truly examining them.

The more you ask her if she is sure, the more sure she will say she feels. At some level that will increase her feelings of certainty.

So do yourself a favor and just Stop asking...


I'm still working on the money side of things but it looks like it will be possible to do once I've sorted a few issues out. Apart from my mortgage, I'll be debt free and be paying less than I am now (admittedly for longer). I get most of the equity, my home back and two of my kids living with me. It's not the best outcome or what I wanted but it's the next best thing.

Keep this^^ in mind as much as you can, when you start to backslide into victimhood...most men don't come out this "well", ((which I realize is a very relative term!!)

But yeah, relatively speaking, you are fortunate. TRY to realize that, okay?

You are a man living in a free nation, able to worship (or not) as you wish, to work in a field of your choice, you are healthy, your kids are healthy and safe (!), they love you and they know they are loved,

you have a roof over your head, electricity at home and food in the refrigerator, you have an income from a job you seem engrossed in...

Barry, hear me please. All this^^^ -- makes you in the lucky 4% of people, in the WORLD.



I did tell W that I was sorry that it had come to this, and that I wish her no harm. I asked her if she agreed that we'd had a good life together for the most part

Ouch

and she said yes we had. She just doesn't want it any more. I don't have to like that but I do have to accept it as painful as it is.

One last time, Barry, STOP asking her questions like that!

All I can say is that it's a serious turn OFF for a woman to have a man need so much reassurance and that is exactly what you are seeking, from a woman who is divorcing you.

You want her to have second thoughts? Then stop asking for reassurances, please.

So we'll be divorced. Despite that, I told her that I'd never close the door on her but that I would move on with my life.

The first clause ^^^ completely undermines the second clause. You just told her that in reality, you will wait for her...but you might pretend to move on...

Barry, it's like you are trying to stomp out any remaining chance there might be for her to doubt herself. It's very self defeating.


I said if she ever had a change of heart and really wanted to be with me again, she should let me know.


Because she'd keep that to herself??? SIGH....your neediness is too blatant...

I'd marry her again, even after all of this. I say this because I love her still.


well of course you would. You SAID she wants out of the marriage b/c you did not treat her well, but then you condemn her for that.

Barry just do YOUR WORK and let those changes speak for themselves. It's really all you can do, along with being the best dad you can be.

Down the road, we can try to help you demonstrate the new improved you more, and that MAY take some dating or dating attempts, but for now, JUST stop asking her for so much reassurances and stop the constant "historic temperature checks" of HER recall of the marriage, that she cannot possibly be objective about at this moment in time anyhow...

let the good memories resurface.

but those good memories cannot come to the surface if you keep "dunking" her in the "reassure Barry that it was really almost great but for some unknown reason the w wants out" water...

b/c that^^^ is NOT how SHE felt.

Damn you WAW for making me do this.

sigh....

Barry, back to basics b/c you have forgotten them or ignored them.

GAL and do some 180s and tell us about THEM and some short term goals.

Some short term goals for You might be:

1) NOT asking your w ANY relationship questions

2) NOT telling her how you feel about her or the marriage or the future,

or anything

OTHER than good things you are looking forward to, WITHOUT involving her.

Sorry you are in pain. I'm trying my best to help you LESSEN it but it's as if you want to inflict more on yourself.

Please, don't. ((( )))

[Barry]

Hi 25years, I do appreciate your input, thanks for stopping by.

I know what you mean about the consent agreement being the only way. It's ridiculous. From what I've been told by L and what I've also looked at online, it's true. The options I have are;

1. We have an unofficial document drawn up by a L, agree on things but it will almost certainly not hold up in court if things change.
2. We have a separation agreement drawn up, agree on things but W CAN go to the courts at a later date & request changes.
3. We have the consent agreement drawn up by a L, and once agreed by the courts, this is final. It also counts for any claims made AFTER D. I didn't know that even once you're D, it is actually possible to stake a claim on any future windfalls...inheritance, lottery wins etc. The only way to have a consent agreement drawn up is to be in the process of D (you need the decree nisi to do it).

I don't want to D at all, I don't even want to be S! All I want to do is go home and be with my family again.
This is why I'm in such emotional turmoil with the whole sitch now and why I said some of the things I did to W.

When I asked my W outright as to how she saw this going in her mind, she said that she thought she could get her £10k, set up a home with it and that we would D later when we could afford to (she talked about online D's which are significantly cheaper).
She said she hadn't thought about the other financial matters (loans, Credit cards etc).

When I said that from the advice I'd had, me D'ing her would be the only way to completely protect myself legally, I asked her if that was what she wanted....to definitely D. She said "I think so, yes". Because she said "I think so", there's still a small part of me that thinks that if I could trust her enough to sign a separation agreement and not D yet, I would do that.
If it were the W I knew asking me of that level of trust, I wouldn't even think about it. She IS different now though and she's not thinking about me at all. It's a valid concern.

The benefit of a separation agreement is that we don't D yet and she could live as she wants to (w/o me) in her own place.
Maybe she needs to do that away from the marital home to really assess if she does want to D? If she decided not to and to R with me, I'd be happy to right off the money, it's not even about that.

The worrying part is that if she DOES decide she wants to D, she could then go to the courts and say she wants to change the agreement and it'll go into a big legal battle where ultimately, she's entitled to more and would get probably get it.
I could still lose everything because I couldn't afford to give her any more without selling my house.

At the moment, I'm starting to wonder if I should go with the separation agreement option and take the risk.
My head is saying not to, D her and move on. My heart is saying that if I don't want to file, don't file.

The problem with seeing it as D'ing for financial reasons is that to W, it's not that. She's told me she doesn't love me enough to be M to me now and that this is what she thinks is best for her. I'm aware that this may not always be the case.
It's really ME that's thinking about the financial aspect. I have to.

I think it's more a case that I feel more entitled to our assets than as opposed to feeling I'm more entitled to more of her life. Morally if not legally. All I want is to try to work things out.

I'd made real progress in my PMA and was feeling so much better when W agreed to have dinner with me. I DID go with no expectations, all I wanted was to spend some time with W and not to have to talk about the sitch at all which we'd agreed on in advance. When she made me this offer, it knocked me back so much. Rather than the pleasant evening it should have been, it turned into the start of the end. I'm right back where I started now, trying my best to live the way I should as per DB'ing (and which helped me before) but now I look at the books and their titles differently. How can I remedy a D, or bust one...that I'm talking about initiating!!?

I do blame her for the fact that she's now wanting to split up for good. I don't blame her entirely for the breakdown of the R, I certainly played my part in that. It's me wanting to fight for this, not me wanting to take some cash and split though.

I wont be asking W any questions about the R again. I had to say those things to her because at the moment, we're on a knife edge and things could go either way as far as D'ing now or later. I was only trying to make sure that this is what she wants because it's such a big thing to undertake. 21 years of marriage and our life together will be over (it is already) and I was just trying to see if she really wanted to go all the way on it.

When I asked her if she agreed that we'd had a good life together, it wasn't to reassure me. I know we have and in my mind, the good times far outweigh the bad. This is clearly not the case for W or she wouldn't be doing this. She only sees the last year or so rather than the whole M and forgets about all the good times. I just wanted her to think about it more.

If we do go through with this offer (via any of the options above), relatively speaking, it IS still the next best thing and I will be all of the things you mentioned in your post. Whether I feel lucky or not is a different matter.

So, what I need to decide now is which way I want to go on this. Do I trust her or not? I don't know right now.

I do need to get back to basics on this. I need to do what works I know. It's just that it worked before because I didn't have thoughts of re-mortgaging and divorce running through my mind.

I do really appreciate you coming by my thread and your continued support and advice. I'll be sure to post on what I decide to do.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd welcome them.

Barry.

[Sotto]

Hi Barry

I'm in a similar sitch to you - needing to work out thr financials and protect myself, but ideally not wanting to D. My L has suggested we work towards a deed of separation along with a financial settlement. Whilst it is not a watertight document, she advised me that it carries significant weight with the court in the event that we do ultimately D.

How she described it was that the deed would normally carry through and be part of the D proceedings - as you say unless something changes in the meantime. But my L said that the 'something' would need to be substantial. The example she gave was if one of us had a serious accident and were no longer able to work. She said the courts would take a pretty dim view of someone trying to change something that they agreed to, having had legal advice, unless there were a significant factor in there.

So, at the moment, H and I are working towards a deed of S, and I hope that we may either be able to reconcile or that we may D once the 2 year separation period is up.

[Barry]

Hi Toots, thanks for stopping by my thread and your input.

I see what you mean about the similarities in our sitch's right now! I had a good read through your threads today.
I've decided that I'm going to go down the exact same path as you I think.

I won't file for D when it's not me that wants it. The separation agreement will have to do as far as any changes further down the line and any trust issues I have against W. What I want is my family back and me filing for D against W does not work towards that goal at all! The future may or may not hold any positive changes in our M, but if I file, it'll certainly hold negative ones.

Just so you know, my L is £220 p/h too, chargeable in 6 minute increments...Ouch!
You don't call them to chat about the weather do you lol!!

[Joe46]

BARRY!! What's been going on? Haven't talked to you in awhile. How are you?

[Barry]

Hi Joe. Good to hear from you.

The answer to that is lots...and nothing. W has made me an offer to buy her out of the house (good offer for me) and at the moment I've been getting alsorts of information and advice on how I could do that. Very similar to Toots in that a L told me I'd be better off D'ing W but it's not what I want. W is indifferent to my decision.

Small update.
I went to see W yesterday. Not to talk about the R or say any of things I've mentioned above. It was to let her know that I have a bit of a problem in raising the money at this stage and that it's going to be at least a few weeks before I can sort it out (if at all). I also discussed the options with her again. I told her my thoughts on me filing against her and said that I didn't really want to do that when its not what I want, even if it's the "best" option financially and legally.

She said she can't help me make my decision but that all she wants is the £10k, nothing else. She will sign any agreement (legally binding or otherwise) to that effect. I'm certain now that the offer is so small out of guilt on her part. I can see it in her eyes. She said that if I thought that in not D'ing her, things would change, it won't (she doesn't KNOW that and neither do I though) and we're not getting back together. Again, she's talking in absolutes, which we all know WAS's do.

I've read up some more on the separation agreement and it does seem to be what I need to do to both protect myself and give me some more time. If W wants to D me at the end of the two years, then that's HER choice, not mine.

I still have some time to decide what to do, but right now, I think a SA is the way forward for me.

Barry.

[Ahoy]

Barry,
You are not likely to get so generous an offer from her later. Trust me on this. You can always D and then start up a relationship again later (and even remarry) if you want, and if you both get to that place. D is not the end, necessarily. And if you do remarry, I'd get a prenup with an infidelity clause.

[Sotto]

Barry, there is an important difference in our sitches and potential S agreement. H and I will be going through full financial disclosure process, consider overall financial picture, agree 'fair' settlement of finances before (hopefully) signing agreement.

Whilst I wouldn't be too keen to rush into D, I think there are more risks with your sitch that your W could make a future claim against you. Whilst she feels happy to walk away with £10k now, what will she feel in a year's time? Presumably she would get some L advice before signing agreement. Is L likely to advise W this isn't a good settlement for her?

In our case, I feel the risk of a future claim from H will be small as we will have gone through 'due process' to divide our finances. I worry that for you (if you haven't done that and W accepts a 'poor deal') the risks will be greater.

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I thought it was important to mention this...

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 25years, I do appreciate your input, thanks for stopping by.

I know what you mean about the consent agreement being the only way. It's ridiculous. From what I've been told by L and what I've also looked at online, it's true. The options I have are;

1. We have an unofficial document drawn up by a L, agree on things but it will almost certainly not hold up in court if things change.
2. We have a separation agreement drawn up, agree on things but W CAN go to the courts at a later date & request changes.
3. We have the consent agreement drawn up by a L, and once agreed by the courts, this is final. It also counts for any claims made AFTER D. I didn't know that even once you're D, it is actually possible to stake a claim on any future windfalls...inheritance, lottery wins etc. The only way to have a consent agreement drawn up is to be in the process of D (you need the decree nisi to do it).

I don't want to D at all, I don't even want to be S! All I want to do is go home and be with my family again.

2 comments re the above^^. As to the legal options, I want to summarize as briefly as I can, TO SEE if this is an accurate recap And to maybe make it a little simpler. Okay?

You seem to be saying that - unless you file for divorce AND it's finalized, (i.e. "blessed" by the judge in court), that things can change.

Which is essentially the same everywhere in the west.

Here In America, most things re children can be modified until they are no longer children. That is b/c a child's needs can change (the child can become disabled, or need additional help in school, for instance).

But property division agreements here, once agreed upon AND approved by the courts, are finalized when they are "finalized." So is the divorce itself. That cannot be undone.

In the UK?? I am not qualified to comment on the pros and cons of a separation in the UK. I only know your common law forms the basis of ours, and that 49 states use it as ours, (Louisiana is the odd duck and only state of 50, that goes the way of the Napoleonic Code).

However, what's really being discussed by your wife, I BELIEVE, is a reasonable suggestion about how to reduce costs, mostly by you two attempting to reach an out of court property agreement.

Nothing is inherently bad or wrong about ^^ that in itself, especially since she has not suggested anything insanely one sided or mean spirited. It's just really painful. You are presently unable to Not take it personally, which makes all of this much harder. If this were an arms length transaction like most business deals, you'd be better able to review the terms objectively, obviously.

But don't dismiss it b/c you are taking it personally; work on NOT taking it so personally. Again, she is not being mean spirited about any of this thus far, so remind yourself that as badly as you feel, this really could be a lot worse.

I won't pretend to know of any "friendly" divorces. But I definitely know of some truly horrific unfair divorces.

The 2 family members I have, who divorced and then remarried their spouses a few years later, had hurt feelings and wounded egos but I don't recall a lot of fighting over the pots and pans and cars...just really sad partings.


Secondly, I know you don't want this. That is abundantly clear.

But as Starsky has said in the past, and what I also believe, is that you are now in a "Damage Control" mode. Time to Cut your losses.

You must do your best to protect yourself AND your assets, which is another way of protecting your children, btw.

I'm unclear about the custody. Are you NOT going to have your d's with you? But you will have the boys? Yes, I know boys are male and girls are female but won't they feel the other parent has given them away?

FWIW, I think the father daughter relationship is very underrated in our world. Most girls see their dads as representing the "outside world" to them, so that their r with their dad represents how they'll be treated by it. Versus the nurturing mother in the home, where it's safe...

Is the outside world an exciting, adventure, and a welcoming place, or is it an unknowable mystery, with uncommunicative or critical people sitting in judgment of them?

(I don't say that to imply anything, but to paraphrase a book I read ).

As much as you can, you must make it clear to each child, that they are precious to you, and so is time spent with them. I will leave it at that b/c I don't want to belabor a point or make you feel worse. I just need to encourage you as much as possible to NOT believe that "a girl needs a mom and not much else" b/c that is not true.



This is why I'm in such emotional turmoil with the whole sitch now and why I said some of the things I did to W.

When I asked my W outright as to how she saw this going in her mind, she said that she thought she could get her £10k, set up a home with it and that we would D later when we could afford to (she talked about online D's which are significantly cheaper).
She said she hadn't thought about the other financial matters (loans, Credit cards etc).

When I said that from the advice I'd had, me D'ing her would be the only way to completely protect myself legally, I asked her if that was what she wanted....to definitely D. She said "I think so, yes". Because she said "I think so", there's still a small part of me that thinks that if I could trust her enough to sign a separation agreement and not D yet, I would do that.
If it were the W I knew asking me of that level of trust, I wouldn't even think about it. She IS different now though and she's not thinking about me at all. It's a valid concern.

The benefit of a separation agreement is that we don't D yet and she could live as she wants to (w/o me) in her own place.

So you mean to say that a LS in your country would NOT make any difference in the logistics or finances? Other than religious or emotional reasons, it sounds as if there are no other factors, and thus, you'd only be prolonging your financial uncertainty with a Legal Separation.

Correct?

As to her replying "I think so"... I would read almost nothing into that. It has to be the 20th (??_ time you have asked her if she is sure. Her Saying "I'm 100% POSITIVE!!" might almost sound cruel to say, at this point...

FTR, I don't think most people are "positive" about getting a divorce, but they do it anyhow. They figure they'll see how it feels later on, but they are in pain or emotional discomfort and think a divorce is their only answer.

They do not believe things can change. So, when they change it themselves, and then see that the other person IS in fact changing and becoming different, that's the only way THEY can learn this lesson. Sometimes it's too late to recon, but sometimes it's not.

None of us can tell you how to OR IF you can win her back. But we know one thing.

We know that

No WAS returns to a marriage they left, UNLESS

they believe the marriage can be better/different than before.

Only time apart and change in YOU, can prove that to her...(ask yourself how you are behaving differently, than before, to see the areas you may wish to work on).

And please,

don't worry today, about how you will feel toward her tomorrow.

Just get back to YOU.


Maybe she needs to do that away from the marital home to really assess if she does want to D? If she decided not to and to R with me, I'd be happy to right off the money, it's not even about that.

The worrying part is that if she DOES decide she wants to D, she could then go to the courts and say she wants to change the agreement and it'll go into a big legal battle where ultimately, she's entitled to more and would get probably get it.
I could still lose everything because I couldn't afford to give her any more without selling my house.

I assume a legal sep agreement would be A factor to consider in a Div agreement but Not THE ONLY factor.

(Many legal Sep agreements here are simply "copy & pasted" to fit the final Div so that the LS agreement becomes the final Div settlement as well).

But it is not conclusively THE factor, in a final divorce.

So if YOU want an end to "financial ambiguity" and to eliminate risk, the best or only way for that to happen is to divorce her. Correct?

All I am saying is that this^^ means to me, that

a Sep agreement you two reach, IF IT is a good one for you, MIGHT help you later but it might not.

However It cannot hurt you financially --b/c they are not going to "punish" you for having an agreement she suggested. Worst case scenario, they might just ignore it.

Okay? If so, then that's that. Up to you.


At the moment, I'm starting to wonder if I should go with the separation agreement option and take the risk.
My head is saying not to, D her and move on. My heart is saying that if I don't want to file, don't file.

The business reasons are not that relevant in my opinion. This seems more about your crossroads of when to move on and when to keep standing.

Again, up to you.


The problem with seeing it as D'ing for financial reasons is that to W, it's not that. She's told me she doesn't love me enough to be M to me now and that this is what she thinks is best for her. I'm aware that this may not always be the case.
It's really ME that's thinking about the financial aspect. I have to.


You are sort of going in circles and overcomplicating this, I believe. Of course "this may not always be the case" and there is ambiguity INSIDE a marriage too, or none of us would have ever landed here. There are never any guarantees.

No offense meant, okay? But let's Keep it simple b/c in some ways, it is simple.

No, it's absolutely NOT easy, but it's also not "mathematically complex"...

I think it's more a case that I feel more entitled to our assets than as opposed to feeling I'm more entitled to more of her life. Morally if not legally. All I want is to try to work things out.

I'd made real progress in my PMA and was feeling so much better when W agreed to have dinner with me. I DID go with no expectations, all I wanted was to spend some time with W and not to have to talk about the sitch at all which we'd agreed on in advance. When she made me this offer, it knocked me back so much. Rather than the pleasant evening it should have been, it turned into the start of the end. I'm right back where I started now, trying my best to live the way I should as per DB'ing (and which helped me before) but now I look at the books and their titles differently. How can I remedy a D, or bust one...that I'm talking about initiating!!?


Every now and then, it's the only way to...

I do blame her for the fact that she's now wanting to split up for good. I don't blame her entirely for the breakdown of the R, I certainly played my part in that. It's me wanting to fight for this, not me wanting to take some cash and split though.


I wont be asking W any questions about the R again. I had to say those things to her because at the moment, we're on a knife edge and things could go either way as far as D'ing now or later. I was only trying to make sure that this is what she wants because it's such a big thing to undertake. 21 years of marriage and our life together will be over (it is already) and I was just trying to see if she really wanted to go all the way on it.

I know this^^. I know you believe a divorce is "a big mistake" and that she "could go either way".

I'm telling you is that IF there is a chance for her to reconsider - it will NOT be aided by you requesting it, and you have requested it several times. I actually believe that lessens the chances you have. I think it literally hurts your cause.


When I asked her if she agreed that we'd had a good life together, it wasn't to reassure me. I know we have and in my mind, the good times far outweigh the bad. This is clearly not the case for W or she wouldn't be doing this. She only sees the last year or so rather than the whole M and forgets about all the good times. I just wanted her to think about it more.

You are suppressing any possible resurfacing of good memories, by telling her to "think about it more". I don't know how else to say this.

If we do go through with this offer (via any of the options above), relatively speaking, it IS still the next best thing and I will be all of the things you mentioned in your post. Whether I feel lucky or not is a different matter.

So, what I need to decide now is which way I want to go on this. Do I trust her or not? I don't know right now.

I don't see that as the question. I see the money question as being "if we have to change any part of this, it will cost more. If not, it'll save some money."

And the emotional question is "Do I file for a D that I don't want?" AND "How, if at all, could that affect any chance for a later recon?"

I do need to get back to basics on this. I need to do what works I know.


Yes to THIS^^^ and the rest of what you wrote (below) is more delaying and hand wringing and trying to manipulate outcomes that you cannot effect....and over thinking things.

Keep it boiled down to the truths and risks you KNOW of, and accept that there is simply NO risk free way thru this.

And keep on keeping on...you will get to the other side, IN TIME.





It's just that it worked before because I didn't have thoughts of re-mortgaging and divorce running through my mind.

I do really appreciate you coming by my thread and your continued support and advice. I'll be sure to post on what I decide to do.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd welcome them.

Barry.

[Barry]

Ahoy, thanks for your input. I know I wont get a better offer than this, and provided I can...I intend to take it.

Toots, thank you too. I agree that the difference between out sitch's is fairly crucial. When W sees a L, they will tell her she is crazy for putting forward such a deal. I don't know how this will pan out yet. W may say that it's all she wants to get it over with quickly - it 's her idea after all, or she may push for more (say, out of my pension pot) once she has all the facts. I need to be careful no matter which way I decide to go (I am back in D mode right now!!).

25years, thanks for the detailed response, I'll go through some of your comments here to try and clarify...

You seem to be saying that - unless you file for divorce AND it's finalized,things can change.

Not quite.
The divorce doesn't need to be finalised to draw up the consent order, it's the decree nisi you need to do it, not the decree absolute. The consent order, should it be agreed by the courts (which would probably mean we would both need to appear in court to explain why it is so heavily one sided in my favour) would cover the usual division of assets, and make provision for the children's welfare. The consent order would need to be finalised to make it legally binding, but not necassarily the divorce.

Here In America, most things re children can be modified until they are no longer children.
That is b/c a child's needs can change (the child can become disabled, or need additional help in school, for instance).

I believe this would be the same in the UK (though I'm not totally sure at this stage). Any agreements made between W and I relating to the children could - and actually should, be reviewed if their needs were to change.

But property division agreements here, once agreed upon AND approved by the courts, are finalized when they are "finalized." So is the divorce itself. That cannot be undone.

^^ This is the difference. A consent order cannot be changed once it's been finalised (maybe in the case of the children's needs as above). A separation agreement does NOT carry the same legal weight and changes could be requested by W. The changes requested would need a valid reason - not just because "W feels she got a raw deal at the time of signing the SA" As Toots said, the courts would take a dim view of that request. So really, my best protection lies in a Consent Order, which I can only obtain if I divorce her.

However, what's really being discussed by your wife, I BELIEVE, is a reasonable suggestion about how to reduce costs, mostly by you two attempting to reach an out of court property agreement.

Correct. I've told W that I'm not handing her £10,000 though on agreement that isn't legally binding. I know too many people who have been stung by their ex-partners. Agreements that were built on trust, which soon dissipated when they went their separate ways.

Nothing is inherently bad or wrong about that in itself, especially since she has not suggested anything insanely one sided or mean spirited. It's just really painful. You are presently unable to Not take it personally, which makes all of this much harder. If this were an arms length transaction like most business deals, you'd be better able to review the terms objectively, obviously.

True, in fact the offer she has made is more sided to me. It IS painful though, because we both know that she's making this one-sided offer in an attempt to get away from me asap and on with her life.
I know I should just let go.

But don't dismiss it b/c you are taking it personally; work on NOT taking it so personally. Remind yourself that as badly as you feel, this really could be a lot worse.

I really am trying to think of it as a piece of financial business rather than what it is - the end of my long marriage. I read a lot of other people's sitch's here and I know it could be a LOT worse.

You are now in a "Damage Control" mode. Time to cut your losses. You must do your best to protect yourself AND your assets, which is another way of protecting your children, btw.

The best way for me to do this is to file and have the consent order drawn up.

I'm unclear about the custody. Are you NOT going to have your d's with you? But you will have the boys? Yes, I know boys are male and girls are female but won't they feel the other parent has given them away?

My D16 will live with W, S13 and S18 with me and S20 lives away from home already (Uni). We've both spoken with the children and we're all agreed that this is the way forward.

I think the father daughter relationship is very underrated in our world. As much as you can, you must make it clear to each child, that they are precious to you, and so is time spent with them. I just need to encourage you as much as possible to NOT believe that "a girl needs a mom and not much else" b/c that is not true.

Absolutely agree with this. My D16 and I have always had a very close relationship. Unfortunatly, she does appear to be fighting W's corner at every oppurtunity at the moment. I've spoken with her (as she will be the one I don't get to live with) and we've agreed that she will come and stay over often and come for meals etc. I've told the boys the same - that W will want to see them often. I believe W is actually looking at property close by so they will be able to do this.

So you mean to say that a LS in your country would NOT make any difference in the logistics or finances? Other than religious or emotional reasons, it sounds as if there are no other factors, and thus, you'd only be prolonging your financial uncertainty with a Legal Separation.

Correct?

The part in bold type is essentially correct yes.

As to her replying "I think so"... I would read almost nothing into that. It has to be the 20th time you have asked her if she is sure. Her saying "I'm 100% POSITIVE!!" might almost sound cruel to say, at this point..

I know, I'm clutching at straws.

FTR, I don't think most people are "positive" about getting a divorce, but they do it anyhow. They figure they'll see how it feels later on, but they are in pain or emotional discomfort and think a divorce is their only answer. They do not believe things can change. So, when they change it themselves, and then see that the other person IS in fact changing and becoming different, that's the only way THEY can learn this lesson. Sometimes it's too late to recon, but sometimes it's not.
I fear that W and I are in the first category.

None of us can tell you how to OR IF you can win her back. But we know one thing.
We know that no WAS returns to a marriage they left, UNLESS they believe the marriage can be better/different than before. Only time apart and change in YOU, can prove that to her...(ask yourself how you are behaving differently than before, to see the areas you may wish to work on). And please, don't worry today, about how you will feel toward her tomorrow. Just get back to YOU. Sound advice - thank you.

I assume a legal sep agreement would be A factor to consider in a Div agreement but not THE ONLY factor (many legal Sep agreements here are simply "copy & pasted" to fit the final Div so that the LS agreement becomes the final Div settlement as well). But it is not conclusively THE factor, in a final divorce.Yes, this is the same in the UK.

So if YOU want an end to "financial ambiguity" and to eliminate risk, the best or only way for that to happen is to divorce her. Correct? Essentially - yes.

My head is saying to D her and move on. My heart is saying that if I don't want to file, don't file.

The business reasons are not that relevant in my opinion. This seems more about your crossroads of when to move on and when to keep standing. Again, up to you.
Yes - this is exactly what I'm struggling with. I wish I could silence my heart.

How can I remedy a D, or bust one...that I'm talking about initiating!!?.

Every now and then, it's the only way to.
I guessed this was the answer.

So, what I need to decide now is which way I want to go on this. Do I trust her or not? I don't know right now.

I don't see that as the question. I see the money question as being "if we have to change any part of this, it will cost more. If not, it'll save some money."
And the emotional question is "Do I file for a D that I don't want?" AND "How, if at all, could that affect any chance for a later recon?".
Yes - these questions are more accurate. I'm still none the wiser on the answers though.

Keep it boiled down to the truths and risks you KNOW of, and accept that there is simply NO risk free way thru this.
And keep on keeping on...you will get to the other side, IN TIME.

Ultimatley, I think I should follow my head and D her. It takes away any financial risk once the Consent Order is completed, I get my home back (albeit at a higher cost), and two thirds of the available kids living with me.
Where W is right now, I deserve more than this out of life. I have a lot to offer someone (should I want to pursue another R with someone else) and I shouldn't have to be constantly worrying about if my partner loves me - which is what I've done for a long time.

I really appreciate you taking the time to give such a detailed response. I'll confirm what I do when I do it!!

Barry.