I thought everything was okay....(Part 4)

[MCS]

V,

Thanks for the recommendation, I guess I do have a question for you though?

What traits do you see in me that you feel I have these tendencies? I did some quick Wiki reading on it and i do see some areas that I exhibit, but there are many that I feel are actually opposite of my personality.

Things I see that are attributes of mine

1) Rescuer, care-giver, (I see this in all areas of my life, including work)
2) Finds (some) identity in how others feel
3) Subordinating one's well-being for others (although I never have felt like I'm a martyr or anything like that) I just get satisfaction in seeing other's happy

Things that I feel pretty strongly I don't exhibit (or in some cases see that the opposite is a strength of mine

1) Intense/unstable interpersonal relationships
2) Inability to tolerate being alone (I prefer to be this way sometimes)
3) Feelings of boredom/emptiness
4) Dishonesty/denial
5) Low self worth (actually quite the opposite)

So at IC this week, I did ask her. "MCS has been here for 6 months dealing with Grief counseling, focused at R with my W. I'm at the point....what do you think of MCS's as a person?"

At that point is where she said she see's my desire to 'help' and in some cases put my pain aside to do it for others. She explained to a pretty uncanny degree where I think the core issue was in the marriage. This is not a 'fault' of mine but something that another friend of mine explained to me. She said that since she's just heard my side, it appears that W was less sure of the path her life was going and to an extent, I 'helped' her stay synced with me, with having similar goals in our marriage/life. However, W seems to have struggled with fitting into this path. However, MCS was standing, guiding and the stability while W was being to struggle internally. However, she didn't know how to get 'out' and deal with it. Letting MCS in to the solution would only reinforce what she was struggling with in the first place, dependency on MCS. ICS said to me "MCS trying to help (even now) is causing her to feel more unsafe/unsure in herself and she will continue to push you away, remember that when you are trying to help" Those are pretty tough words to hear.

It helped, but I went back to my old self when wife showed me all of her pain and anger inadvertently. I was saying to her to not do this alone, go find folks to talk to. Everyone that I suggested, W angrily said they don't care, except for Sis.

I don't know how to stop that, I was confident, didn't beg, didn't pursue other than saying I wouldn't take things forward to D, this is her decision. I know the answer is be detached, but it went out the door when I saw her struggling.

[Vanilla]

MCS

For me, it is because MCS is putting W, her absence, her behaviour and the loss of his M together with thoughts of OM before MCS.

There are balances between a locked R and independence. The book I recommend explains the theories and these are tested and repeatable. The balance between H, W and the M. MCS is a spiritual thinker and by letting his higher power have the necessary thinking structure in a less emotional form he will integrate better strategies for living. The rational part of MCS can link with the loving part. I believe MCS has the will to change but appears unknowing on structure and theory. The barrier can be that of dogma which is useful in shortcut thinking but a hindrance to deeper thought.

I believe MCS has realisations which arrive from the introduction of ideas and structured thinking. MCS may need more theoretical knowledge as I believe MCS is an 'integrator' or 'digital thinker'. I have observed MCS is a spurter making great leaps with small pieces of knowledge. Like a frog hopping great distances rather than a snail moving with slow deliberation. MCS frog once active leaps great distances and then sits on a lily pad until the next great prod produces another enormous leap. I would like MCS to prod himself rather than let life events do this for him.

W is straining to be independent and free (and is addicted to EA/PA). Nothing excuses wayward behaviour in my book, there are better ways of acquiring freedom and it is as is. MCS can choose to accept and work with this rather than against it.

MCS, I would like MCS accept Ws right to be W. I observe MCS moving to control mode. MCS by concentrating on MCS and learning abount boundaries etc, then MCS can grow into MCS. MCS is a very strong man with a good spirit and is a loving dad, he can choose to let W be free to be W, even if W comes home then unless W can be free this may be temporary. W has to be free to be W even within an M and MCS has the desire to understand how this can happen and seems to be reaching for the tools that permit it.

MCS needs more knowledge not more emotion.

This is what I see and I hope that Sandi or 25 as vets can offer her opinion please. As all I can offer is the benefit of lesser experience.

That is what I see MCS

V

[MCS]

For me, it is because MCS is putting W, her absence, her behaviour and the loss of his M together with thoughts of OM before MCS.

Ok, I understand this and I thought that may be the case and I agree. I wanted to dig deeper if you had thought that my self-esteem, self-worth or issues with being in a 'single' state were your concerns because that's not how I feel at all and thought maybe my posts may be projecting something that I don't feel.

The rational part of MCS can link with the loving part.

This is so true in what I'm struggling to obtain. Since other than controlling (which I initially thought was a devious trait, but now I see its unintentional) I still can't pinpoint what other behaviors I was displaying for W to be unhappy. I can't figure out how to be loving without kicking back into my rational (controlling) tendencies

MCS frog once active leaps great distances and then sits on a lily pad until the next great prod produces another enormous leap. I would like MCS to prod himself rather than let life events do this for him.

Another assessment that you hit the nail right on the head. This is how I learn and I've never been fantastic at reading and comprehending; but I'm really good at experiencing and then piecing disparate pieces of knowledge together.

W is straining to be independent and free (and is addicted to EA/PA)..... MCS can choose to accept and work with this rather than against it. MCS, I would like MCS accept Ws right to be W

Here's another one that I feel that I'm growing to accept (for me and M) but still struggling on her independence and freedom from motherhood (although it seems to be getting better) I have noticed that I'm not as caught up in OM think, maybe because it seems to be over; but more because I know that is between W and OM. I've struggled with applying that same principle between W and Kids

I observe MCS moving to control mode.

Yep, and I actually felt this too. The last couple days I have regressed a little based on some nasty stuff W said about me that's not true but it hurts that either she's lying or that's how she feels at the moment. I also saw that during our session; I became polarized to try and 'help' (which actually is control) the sitch she's in.

V, I can't thank you enough for posting here. It's amazing to me that not even knowing me that you've been able to assess the person that I was before and am working on now. I feel like I've known you for a long time because not only does it seem that you know me....you know how to get me to 'understand' things that I've never had to deal with in life. Like others (Sandi, Wonka, Starsky, 25, etc.) I can say that I see the work of the man above through you folks on an anonymous message board.

Also, on a closing note. I think I'm getting to the point that I'm not afraid of either outcome or R or D. That's not in my hands. However, its not preventing me from understanding that I still want our M to work. This is a concept I never thought I would understand just a few months ago.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Thank you .

Much as I would like to take the credit for this, well a little the ADD helps. MCS, you underestimate your own role, primarily the honesty, the intention that MCS has to change and accept challenges that will improve MCS. This is very key to you and your ability to see and understand. So I am glad that the way I write is smoothing your way forward.

MCS is ready to change and grow, to hop to the next Lilly pad. Frogs change into princes you know!

It is that with which we struggle that encourages growth.

There are other aspects too, which I know you will understand. MCS, you have a spiritual background which is both a positive and a negative impediment to growth. positive because there is an extra strength an ability to connect, to pray and to interpret. Negative in a way that is role constraining, those views can if we let them allow dogma to define our roles as W and H and as mum and dad.

So if I said that it is the higher power with whom both MCS and V are connected that communicates, could you accept that? Can you also accept that in this way my connections to my higher power are strengthened too? This higher power is older than both our souls and ancient behind us and eternal in front of us. In this way DB connects without space and judgement. We are part of higher power and these tenets are free to us if we open our minds and hearts.

MCS you are truly growing and changing for you and your beautiful children that you write about so joyously.

Suppose, just suppose that W parenting was ok, different, off beat, unusual, but that there was benefit to it that MCS could not see? That wearing open toed shoes with woollen mittens was expression? That eating chocolate ice cream for a day with tomato sauce was experience. That W loves her children and that unusual unkempt hair is an 'in look', that really none of that matters at all. Just suppose? Suppose the universe was smiling on it. As long as no physical harm arises, that it is ok, unconventional, wacky, quirky motherhood, W own style brand and OK. I would have loved that kind of mother, I always wanted to be Gerrald Durrells sister from My Family and Other Animals, mad as a 'box of frogs'.

Full circle MCS, enjoy being in the box of frogs. It can be ok if you let it and smile instead.

V

[MCS]

V,

Thanks. I had a big backslide. You're going to be disappointed in me.....Seeing her in pain is just too much.

School was cancelled, so we needed to do an exchange of the kids other than normal that one drops off at school the other picks up. I told W that I can drop off at her place or she can pick up at mine. W chooses parking lot at a store. I said I don't think that's a good idea for the kids, I ad emailed her that last week and she never responded, I said she could call and we could talk. W tells me that I'm preventing her from seeing the kids. I fire back about the rhetoric and lies she tells people about me, just like this. Fill in about hearing OM say that I was withholding kids and also tell her the story of her friend that helped her move and he called me back into the house and told me he was mis-informed about what the sitch actually was and gave me his number to call and talk if I needed to. W responded "Why would he say something like that to you?" I said "I have no idea, I don't even know who he was"

Getting back to the exchange, I said that is my boundary for the kids, they deserve more than a casual trade in a parking lot. Also told her I've decided that I'm going to look only at what I feel is best for the kiddos.

After 4-5x of her telling me I need to come up with something that works for her followed by her hanging up on me, W finally says she'll come get them. Comes in and S5 starts crying because he doesn't want to go and D4 wants to show her a set-up of her toys that she's been telling me all week she wants mom to see. W keeps telling her no. D4 asks me to go take a picture so I can come back and show mom. I look at W and say 'Please, just be their Mom'

She snarls, and I ask her if she's been seeing a counselor. She says "Counselor says I'm just fine' I ask her if she's told counselor the truth. She looks up and stares at me. On the way out, I said: "W, please get healthy for the kids" I then ask "Why are you pushing away everyone that cares for you?" She says "because everyone treats me like $h!t"

She leaves and she then sends text message later that I can't call the shots and withhold the kids from her. Says no more talk, just text. I say that this has been my fear that we have disagreements and she shuts down communication.

So to further the backslide, W showed me this week how much pain and anger she's holding trying to continue to support her lie (that OM is not involved in any of her decisions, its all MCS) I saw the struggle, I backslid more today and called SIL (haven't talked to her since she came over to go through W things.) As you know SIL is level headed and like everyone else totally confused about what actually happened to our M. As soon as she picked up the phone, SIL says W is a mess, they tried to go on vacation with W's 'new' friends and W treated SIL like dirt. SIL said W is always on the phone, even when driving she's constantly distracted from the kids and life in general. SIL says that she's been attached to the phone since last summer and she doesn't know why. I asked "Has W told you about it?" SIL says no, she doesn't know. Obviously, W has not even told SIL what's going on. I didn't reveal anything. SIL said back in the summer (week of OM rendezvous) or fall (Wedding w/ kids) that W was at her Dad's and S5 was acting up. Grandfather disciplined him and W stormed out of the house. SIL said it seems like W doesn't have control of the kids. I told SIL to keep being there for W. It seems like W is hearing same thing from all around her hopefully she will work out of whatever she's in right now. Also said that I haven't given up.

So earlier this week, W made some heinous accusations about me that are all lies; to continue to cover the truth of what has happened. They are false, I really have no need to defend. However, she sent me a text today saying it again. Its going to force me to shut down communications with her. Its unfortunate, kids are going to suffer.

[Vanilla]

MCS, it is my role as your DB friend to support you as I hope so is yours for V. I really want your success and happiness however that ends for MCS. When MCS does the best he can, he should be proud, he can ask no more of himself.

W is truly wayward and MCS let her be. If she lies about you that may be a boundary issue for you. In this way W needs to know.

MCS, you could say 'W you and I know the truth about OM. If you continue to say X and Y about me and it is repeated to me then I will correct the lie.'

MCS have you seen Sandi new post about Wayward Wives, it is insightful reading MCS.

Sandi on Wayward Wives

V

[MCS]

V,

Thanks for the reassurance. I got the book you recommended in and am starting to read it.

I don't know what 'not' to do about W. I understand she is wayward and continues to lie to everyone. Found out today that BFF2, whom is a very passive person and idolizes W just snapped at her and set a boundary for W, although W didn't seem to respect it. If BFF2 has hit her limit, things are bad.

I actually think she's convinced herself her lies are reality. I can't control that, my issue is because of her thinking her lies are true, no boundaries seem to be able to be set. I'm beginning to think there's actually something really wrong with her mindset right now. I'm scared about her with the kids right now. She seems to be crashing and I don't know what rock bottom will look like. I'm going on travel this week and she has the kids. I'm afraid of her emotional state because it seems to be all over the map. However, it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do about it. I need to have faith that He is looking out for the little ones. This has gotten to a point that is not good at all.

Like I said, I think I'm going to have to shut down all communication with her. It's what she has wanted since the beginning. Now that she's thrown these fallacies on the table, even though they are just that I need to protect myself. I wished it hadn't come to this.

[Vanilla]

MCS

There are trusted adults around, you can check the children are with the carers.

I am glad that you are finding out some basics about how Rs work. These kind of books give theory and examples. I suspect like V, it is harder with posters to extract structure. MCS seems to have preference with structured knowledge.

Waywards have to distort reality to fit their view, my understanding is that this is called cognitive dissonance. Eventually there are so many differences between Ws view and reality that the bubble bursts. Then patching of reality occurs, that seems to be replay. Repeating and looping until eventually there is disintegration. This is how addiction works in gambling compulsion, eventually rock bottom is hit and despite flailing change, real change occurs. If W is right minded ( and my notes say that W took great care of her siblings from a very young age) so that is good for your co parenting in the longer term.

MCS, be strong and kind, your core values and spirituality are glowing in your life. Whatever happens MCS will be the very best dad he can.

V

[MCS]

MCS

Waywards have to distort reality to fit their view, my understanding is that this is called cognitive dissonance. Eventually there are so many differences between Ws view and reality that the bubble bursts. Then patching of reality occurs, that seems to be replay. Repeating and looping until eventually there is disintegration. This is how addiction works in gambling compulsion, eventually rock bottom is hit and despite flailing change, real change occurs. If W is right minded ( and my notes say that W took great care of her siblings from a very young age) so that is good for your co parenting in the longer term.

Perfect....thank you for this. It puts it in perspective. I realize that my backslides now seem to be from a point of empathy for her that is now setting in. I then vacillate back and forth from empathetic to defensive. I actually feel these empathetic thoughts is the first part of forgiveness. The gas lighting that has occurred has knocked me back a little bit, but I saw myself talking today about how W is trying to find her way right now and it will take a while for her to move focus her feelings of things inhibiting her 'growth' from the externals (me, friends, job, etc.) to her internal feelings.

I talked to MC today about recent things and how we went backwards this weekend. He had some good words of advice. I told him that I was looking at 'helping' W not as her husband, but it seems like I'm still really only the one that really knows about her struggles. As a friend that cares about her, I feel that I should help her. He said, "MCS, friendship is a 2 way street. She doesn't want you to be her friend right now." That was worded that put in in perspective for me.

Also talked a little about concerns with the kids and how my fear is increasing. He said, "you need to leave those cares to the one that loves them purely and trust Him" again, worded well that hit me. (I am checking with the carers about them each day this week)

So, doing a little better right now. It was a tough weekend. Thanks for helping me out. Also, I'm selfishly lurking back through your thread to see how you've mastered this 'detached caring' state that you still care for H, but stay detached from his journey.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Your IC is wise, there is also a danger for MCS in helping as it flips his 'control' switch to on position. For a long time that switch was stuck in the on position MCS and now it flips. MCS this needs to be exchanged for a dimmer switch (analogue) rather than an on/off (switch). In this way 'help' need have different meanings in different situations rather than full on (bright light-full on empathy) or off (complete dark-defensive).

It also looks like W is rejecting friends to maintain her internal state. True friends will stay with it and know W is in there somewhere.

The secret to detachment is GAL so the focus is not on R and W. MCS, you have wonderful ready made GAL with your precious children.

V