hold on! - 8

[u-turn]

#7 was locked - here is a link to the end of it:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2543309&page=10

I will write an update shortly.

THANKS FOR EVERYONE'S SUPPORT AND ADVICE.

[u-turn]

It has been an eventful weekend so far.

I'm not sure I am DBing at the moment, I am trying to take care of and improve myself. I still have a goal of saving my marriage. I still love my wife - though she is lost right now and things went off the rails this weekend.

most of this story is about W and little about me and very little about the kids. I may go on too long, but I need to write this so at least I can remember the details.

W manages the HR department at a production facility that is closing one of it's plants in two phases - Friday was phase 1's last day and some of the workers went out after work for a drink and invited W. She met them there (bar&grill type place) and had a couple drinks and talked to some of the guys that she had hired through the year.

(detail - OM was there, but she said he left when she got there as he should) - (detail - I was not aware of any of this, I was home with the kids thinking she just isn't showing up on a Friday which she hasn't done in a very long time).

While she was there, she went to the bathroom and one of the workers followed her and waited outside of it until she got out. He made advances at her which she declined. He pulled her into the men's room and continued making advances and grabbing her - she struggled and got away as a manager came in (someone in the restaurant told the manager). She ran away told another worker that she trusted and she just wanted to go home. He helped her to her car and she left - hysterical and crying.

(detail - friend texted W later (W showed me) and said that this man continued to hassle some of the waitresses.)
(detail - this man moved to another state today to start his new job. and W is relieved by this. Though she claims he wouldn't have survived with these men if he went back to work with them.)

On her way home, she was speeding and was in a car accident (rear ended a stopped car). She is not injured badly mostly bruises from the seat belt and air bag. A police officer saw the accident happen and was there within seconds. She was given a sobriety test, breathalyzer, and was arrested charged with DUI.

She called me when she got to the station - I could barely understand what she was saying because she was crying hysterically - this scared me because I have never heard crying like this before from her. She said to "come pick me up from the police station at 12:45 - XXX XXXX tried raping me". She said please just do that for me and hung up. I was scared and this didn't make sense to me so I went to the station and talked to an officer that told me the whole story.

I went home (wrote here) and went back to pick her up - payed her bond, fees and impound release fee. Took her home and she was sobbing the entire time. She showered and went to bed - I laid next to her planning the murder of XXX XXXX. it was a long and sleepless night as my mind swirled about the decline of our lives.

She woke up at about 4:00 and told me the whole story and I listened she cried and I held her. Of course I only cared about her well being from both the assault and accident.

Later in the morning, wanted to talk more about everything, she was asking for my help, she asked if I would stay with her through this. She told me many times that she loved me. She was ashamed and embarrassed.

I told her that I love her and can stay if she wants that - she said that has not changed.

(detail - she was staring at my ring that is still on my finger - spinning it and crying. If I were a mind reader, I would say she was thinking of what she has done to us).

We start talking about what steps need to be done and her mind was not functioning so she asked me for help with this. I told her I would do this.

Break......

[u-turn]

The car needed to be moved from the impound or the costs would escalate. She told me she remembered the officer said it was leaking some fluid, so I assume it cannot be driven. We went to the impound lot and see the car - she is lucky to be alive, the car is destroyed. She starts sobbing again and I just told her how thankful I am that she is here and not hurt. She didn't even know the car was in this condition, she said she didn't look at it.

We rented a car (that is when it hit her that she doesn't even have a license right now and what is she going to do - I did not hit her with the reality of what can happen). We went back home, talked a little and she slept - cried a lot and was still very confused about things. I made some calls and did some research and updated her on what I learned when she woke up. I know I am taking care of her too much.

She told me that she doesn't want to tell the kids and asked me if I had. I said I hadn't but we need to discuss that. (I am not going to lie to them - I wont, and what if they find out from someone else, this could be in the newspaper someday for all I know. I will not lose the trust of my other two kids.

This morning, we got up and didn't discuss this - went to pick up some food for the kids breakfast, came home and I asked her who is this animal that would do this to another person. She told me what she knew about him. She doesn't want to do anything about the assault because he is gone. If he stayed, she would. I am leaving this up to her.

Yesterday, when she asked me why I didn't sleep, I did tell her that this was the second time in my whole life that I actually wanted to kill another person. She cried and said she was sorry to put me through all of this. I think she knows who the other person is.

That's where we are right now, I did not talk to her about NC with the OM or a letter or transparency or R or anything like that. This situation is much more important right now and I can wait.

[u-turn]

I want her to believe in me and I think she is. I hope these events wake her up and don't make her think "see, I'm too broken to come back so I will just continue as I have"

The reality is she is going to need me but I cannot protect her from this. I can help her get through this and can be by her side through this.

[u-turn]

It's pretty heavy.
I am disregarding me right now (I know that this is not advised, but I cannot worry about me at this moment). I am going to protect my kids,

**and save this family. (some pretty lofty goals - eh?)

W put her ring back on today (first time in 8 months). yeeesh - today? (this was a sign I was always looking for, but today?)

Last night, before she went to sleep she thanked me for taking care of her. I didn't respond except by holding her hand.

She was crying before she left this morning and told me that she is not a charity case. I told her that is not why I am helping her. She thanked me again.

[Wet]

Wow, what a story! Good job on your restraint so far. So what are your plans?

[u-turn]

Plans?
Well - I think any and all former plans are on hold right now. I feel though that I have truly learned how to handle stressful situations with some degree of poise (I guess there is something positive that came out of this whole BD/A/inner digging thing - maybe I actually did/am fixing things about myself)

Now it's all about the current problem. If this happened a couple weeks ago I may have thought differently, but this is not just her problem it is ours.

#1 find and hire an attorney (we cannot risk messing this process up). She has her wits about her enough to research this and has e-mailed me a name that was referred to her.

Now of course I do not want to minimize the issue of drinking and driving, and I do believe in paying for mistakes, but I do want to minimize the impact of this. I hope to convince her to pursue pressing charges against the guy at least to show that she was upset and not making good decisions. Not that this will help, but it can't hurt.

Keep our household running as usual, comfort the kids (this I have to knock out of the park - they are obviously suspicious of us and I do not want to lose their trust), work extra (we will need the money), and Yes - comfort and help W - show her that I can and will help her handle this.

I have a feeling there will be talk of her putting on her BGP here, but I feel that I need to do what I can (it's what I signed up for 21 years ago and I still believe in that), and at least she may respect me for this.

I do hope she is not using me - I know this is a possibility. But she seems sincerely regretful - I don't know how this will affect us, but we will see.

[u-turn]

Just a quick update:
I am still getting an uneasy feeling about reconnecting w/ W right now. She is going fast. I still haven't talked to her about how to rebuild trust.

I talked with W about pursuing charges against, lets call him attacker. She doesn't want to bring people into this and bring it to light. Attacker is gone, she told her boss about what happened. Her boss runs a battered women's shelter also and helped her. I feel very removed from helping her with all of this. She said she would listen to the lawyers advice if it helps. She did not talk about her accident or arrest.

We are not really talking about us right now, and I think that is ok for now - I think I need to be patient.

I had severe nightmares last night - which I haven't had in a long time. I woke up and woke her up. She asked me what they were about.

I just responded, I would have protected you. She said. I know you would have.

On another note, my confused S20 contacted W yesterday to get some information and they got into another huge argument. I haven't talked to him since before christmas. He has dropped out of school for now and is living with his girlfriend. They are involved in some door to door sales program for money right now (pyramid). He is truly done with us and wants to remove himself from our lives. I do say that he is being totally unreasonable and unrealistic, re-writing history, and blaming us for a terrible life. I think I have to let him do his thing at the moment and let him come back if he wants to. I cannot chase him.

D14 is now D15 today and we are celebrating as a family. I am happy for some good fun.

[u-turn]

I'm feeling lost. This is all catching up to me and I don't really know how to handle things. I'm losing sleep and appetite again. I have a constant knot in my stomach.

I am getting more uneasy as time goes on and she is getting closer. This should not be - I should be happy about this. But the timing and current situation makes me feel used.

Is it too much pressure to start talking about us. She does ask me what I'm thinking, what's wrong. She has asked me what she can do for me. I have told her that I don't want to talk about that at this time. I want to help her through the other situations without setting us back. But my trust is waning again.

[Sotto]

Hi U-turn, sorry you're finding it hard. It may be good if someone who has successfully pieced can give you some advice.

It sounds as though your W may want to rush back in and it has all happened very fast. Plus you've both had this huge, recent trauma.

There are things that you know you need, but you haven't asked for them and she is now wondering what is happening as she can see something's up. You have been trying to look after her at the expense of yourself and maybe now is the time to ask for what you need.

Have you had a look at DR again - the infidelity chapter and step number 3 ask for what you want. Why is your trust waning again - is your spidey sense telling you something?

[u-turn]

Thanks Toots - I guess I didn't consider myself in piecing yet, I will definitely research this and will treasure any advice.

She still knows me better that anyone and cannot hide my feelings and insecurities all of the time - she can see it.

I don't feel as good as I did when I was very dim with her. I felt in control of myself and now I feel like I am being controlled by her emotions, my feelings, and getting through the upcoming legal and financial battle that she/we have stepped into.

But I have the same goals as always. I think I do need to open up our conversation about what I need: honesty and faithfulness, and I need reassurance that those are her goals too and that this is happening.

The minute I mention that this is what I need she likely will react that she has done something that makes me feel mistrusting.

Sometimes I still get feelings that she has just upped her game of deceit and lying - but maybe those are overactive senses.

----

My spidey senses may be overactive and I should calm them down, but I will say what I've noticed here:

Friday - she had no issues about not showing up after work and not letting me or the kids know she was going to be 4 hours late. This is a problem to me. I don't text or call her to ask where she is because..... it wasn't advised during DB and it has worked to not escalate arguments about distrust. But this hasn't happened for a quite a while and there was no reason for her to ignore us. She said she wan't being deceptive, just didn't call and lost track of time.

Yesterday she told me she went to lunch with the man that helped her on the night she was attacked. (she did tell me this without me asking and I wouldn't have known either way - so she is offering some transparency without asking) She talks very favorably about this guy and I worry that she's getting chummy with another man (she started this way with OM when she started her job). (might be me having an overactive imagination)

She has not verbally reassured me about OM being out of the picture for a couple weeks, but maybe she won't do that without asking. But maybe that is expecting too much.

[EyeTie]

I just keep reading your story and keep thinking..

DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

I worry for you, that you are going to be the "back up" plan for her and her dangerous behavior. Then in a month or so she is going to be right back where she was and so will you. Keep your guard up, keep an eye on things and don't let her know your true feelings. If anything, let he know that it was a one time deal and you won't do it again. Good luck!

[u-turn]

That is exactly what I worry about because I have not regained my trust in her - and that is my fault.

She sure seems sincere most of the time, she has made behavior changes that make her seem like she was before all of this, and is thanking me for helping her, telling me she loves me,

W is trickling information to me without me asking, which I should appreciate as it shows that she isn't hiding things from me. She did say some things that pushed my buttons a little last night (I internalized and didn't react). She mentioned that OM called the attacker over the weekend several times until his wife finally answered. Wife of attacker made excuses for his behavior and his medication not being quite right.

This all bothers me.

-There is still contact w/ OM (they still work together). She says this is through the person who helped her and directly with OM (convoluted?) She claims that she has told him to leave her alone.

-OM is doing things for W even if it is just confronting attacker.

-I'm losing faith that there is any decency in this place that she works.

W is very upset about all of this and tells me she just wants it all to be over. She really seems to be coming unglued sometimes and I worry about her. I told her that I worry about her. I want her to go to see someone (C) about this, but I don't know if I should mention it.

I don't know at this point whether to open up about myself to her or not. I sure want to, but not if it's going to be used against me later - this has happened before, but maybe this time it's different.

[u-turn]

We had a short but somewhat revealing conversation this morning, and maybe this is real.

She was again wondering what I was thinking so I told her that sometimes I wish we could just run away and start over. She said she was sorry and she wouldn't blame me if I wanted to rethink everything and leave her to her messes.

I told her that I know that would not be what I wanted. I want it all back, but I am having trouble re-building the confidence in ourselves.

She said she was sorry again and told me she does not want to run away. she wants our lives, with me, D15, S17, and S20 if he ever comes back. She said she wants our imperfect life back.

I told her I still believe what I told her 21 years ago (for better or for worse). She hugged me, ILY and had to go.

She's in there somewhere, and starting to come out, I think. I think it is time to tell her what I will need to rebuild my confidence in us.

[Sotto]

It sounds like it's time U-Turn. Sounds as though your W may well be amenable. And if she isn't - that will also be revealing, as Starsky posted on someone else's sitch recently.

Good Luck...

[PeterV2]

Yesterday she told me she went to lunch with the man that helped her on the night she was attacked. (she did tell me this without me asking and I wouldn't have known either way - so she is offering some transparency without asking)

Put your foot down. Tell her where your boundaries are. Tell her it's inappropriate for her to go to lunch with someone of the opposite sex unless you are both going to lunch with him. Period.

And if she doesn't want to respect your boundaries then she should live on her own.

[u-turn]

Thanks Peter - I don't know if that is inappropriate though. I am uncomfortable with it right now, but I wouldn't have been before all of this. I have gone to lunch with female co-workers when I was working in other offices before. I want to trust, but I don't think that I should (or even want to) try to control every minute of her day. These are my trust issues now, I'd like her to help me with them, but ultimately they are my issues to deal with.

Sunday journal.
We have had some conversations this weekend that, I believe, are letting me in a little more.

Friday, W called me on the way home from work crying. She's still very upset about the attack. She has had a text conv. with attacker's W in which she partially defends him and definitely enables his behavior. This completely angers and upsets W.

W went to see a therapist Friday also, and is going to see him once a week. I believe she will only talk about the attack and not about the A or our M, but hopefully I am wrong. I

When she came home, I was going to give the kids some money for them to get themselves some dinner so we could talk, but W wanted to all be together and "be normal" as she said.

She asked me if I wanted to go see a C and she also asked me if I'd be open to finding a new MC. I said I would like to do that. (this is a good sign to me as the couple of times that we went to a MC before, was not helpful at all - too early, wrong MC)

W invited her family over to our house for D-15 birthday celebration. I haven't seen them for almost a year (really since BD). They commented how different I looked (not good - skinny, gray hair & beard). MIL was friendly and joked that I should color it - I said no, I earned every one of these. The kids had a good time, D-15 actually wanted to have this party, because she hasn't seen this family together in such a long time. It was good for us.

I hope W being comfortable having family over again is a good sign.
I see many good signs, but I may be looking too closely for bad signs too. I think I need to expect ups and downs and not be so discouraged by the downs (or what I assume are downs).
This morning she asked me what I am thinking again (every day now). I said that I liked that she was letting me in to her head again. We both commented that we liked seeing each other smile and laugh.

I did say that I feel like I lost a year. She said she was sorry - I wasn't looking for an apology, I was just talking.

So much happening, and I am having a hard time prioritizing.

We are going to see the lawyer about the DUI this week also. I don't know if I should push too hard for the MC at this very second, she has a lot on her plate (I don't want to get overwhelmed, but want to keep forward progress on all fronts - that's not asking for too much - right?)

And no, I have not had the conversation about NC with OM yet either. This is going through my head very often (almost all the time) but I am looking for opportunity without seeming accusatory.

I could write a list of good signs and bad signs, but I think I'd be obsessing a bit much, and many of the bad signs are just mind reading things anyway.

Sandi - if you are around, your thread about WW is so valuable, and I am reading that closely. Though when I do read it, I get a little discouraged again thinking this is all a highly improved version of the WW game she is playing.

[u-turn]

I spent the night reeling again probably because I found a flash drive with some OM stuff (e-mails and photos) on it. It was all old - from last summer and before, but it did remind me of a lot of bad crap that was going on. It also showed me that this A was going on earlier than I had thought. I thought I triggered it, I took the blame for it, I apologized, but she was already changing, the EA was already happening. I wish I wasn't so blind back then.

Nothing new, it doesn't change anythings, but It really hurt to see that stuff again.

I am reeling, because not matter what I tell her that I want, NC letter, transparency... all it would take is a wink at work to say - ignore all this, I'm just keeping husband at bay. Let's start new e-mail addresses... Lets keep this going as long as I want.

She does not seem to think that this was all wrong, which makes me think that she is only quiet right now.

I don't know how to trust anymore.

[u-turn]

I think I need to get this done and in the open, but how do I tell her that I want these things without making her think that I'm accusing her of lying? (which I really am not)

I am working up to saying this - and would like some input first if anyone's willing:

to me, this makes it sound like I don't trust her (which I don't know if I do right now).

I know that you said that you ended it with OM and that is big step for you and us, and I feel you coming back and letting me in again. You say you are recommitting to our marriage, I need to be reassured of this. I want you to write a letter to him to declare this affair over and tell him of your reestablished commitment to your husband and family. I want you to have no contact with him at all. I know you will have work related e-mails and conversations, but personal e-mails and text would need to stop. I want to see this letter before it is sent. This is both to help me regain my confidence in us and for you to have closure. We need this to rebuild. He needs to be removed from our lives. I also want to be equally transparent with each other. Lies and secrets were feeding this problem and we need this to end.

A draft letter may be too controlling and will feel to her like I am putting words in her mouth (no?)
I am sad to say that I am almost certain that this will end us.

I don't want to sugar coat it, but I don't want to push her back over the edge if she is near it. She asked about my nightmares that I had last night. I think she is feeling a frustrated that I am not just jumping back in and that I am worried about getting hurt again. But I think I need something to move forward and blind faith is not working for me yet.

Yet again, she could agree to it all knowing that she can just pass it off with him.

[u-turn]

She asked me this morning to talk to her - tell her what I'm always thinking about.

She said she's sorry for the misery that she caused me. Would it hurt less if she left? I paused for a long time and said that is not what I want - she said it wasn't either.

She said she wants to help me and I paused again and said that I would like her help with this. She thanked me again for helping her and she owed me. I said she didn't owe me anything, but I would accept her help.

We ran out of time this morning again. Mornings are a bad time to talk because we never finish. But we are exhausted at night which doesn't help the conversations go to well all the time.

But tonight I think it may be best to talk - we have a choir concert for D15. So afterwards I think I will bring up the NC.

It is a lot for me to say and old me would have written a letter or e-mail, but new me is talking everything through - face to face.

Any tips to get through this?

(I don't know why this is so hard for me to do - what do I have to lose? really - if this isn't acceptable, why would I want anything else with her? If she isn't agreeable to this, her return must be fake - right?)

I don't want to keep repeating this pattern of her coming back only to find that she's not really back.

[u-turn]

W & my schedules are not meshing and she's been exhausted at night and this is not giving us any time to talk. So I was considering giving her a letter (e-mail) to explain what I want - since she is asking. (I am also worried about not saying everything that I have to say)


W,
This has been on my mind and can't seem to find the right opportunity to discuss this. You have asked me many times what you can do to help me. I have avoided this because I didn't want to deal with or burden the situation with my own feelings

But

I know that you said that you ended it with OM and that is big step for you and us, and I do feel you coming back and letting me in again. You say you are recommitting to our marriage, I need to be reassured of this. I want you to have no contact with him at all and want you to write a letter to him to declare this affair over and tell him of your reestablished commitment to your husband and family. I believe that any contact you have with him is continuing the destructive pattern. Though I know for now you will have work related e-mails and conversations, but personal e-mails and texts would need to stop. Alternate e-mail accounts need to be stopped. I want to see this letter before it is sent. This is both to help me regain my confidence in us and for you to have closure and I think we need this to rebuild. He needs to be removed from our lives completely. I also want to be equally transparent with each other. Lies and secrets were feeding this problem and we need this to end.

I do not want to repeat this pattern or have the doubts consume me.

Please let me know what your thoughts are about this.

If anyone has any advice about this - I sure would like to hear it. For some reason this makes me nervous.

Thanks!!!

[SunnyB]

U-turn, my advice is get something on both your calendars so you can say this face to face. Together time was always an issue with my M, I got up early, he slept a lot later; I went to bed early (so I could get up early), he stayed up late and usually fell asleep on the couch. It was convenient to try and make up for that with texts and emails but that was a mistake. Something this important deserves face time.

[u-turn]

Thanks
It is very important and I have been trying to fit this in the right time. Scheduled conversations have never gone well in the past, but maybe it's time to try that again.

I've been trying to let her take the lead, but it gets stagnant as she doesn't try to move forward. So the e-mail was just to get this conversation going, but I do realize that face to face would be better.

[u-turn]

W is continuing to get closer, and even initiating some physical touch, wants to go on a date, still wearing her ring - which I commented to her about (I like this, and is very important to me).

She mentioned that she wants to ML, but feels gross because of what she has done. This is going to be a big hurdle for both of us I think.

I am nervous about this (I think that I have officially gotten my virginity back since it has been such a long time (since day before BD).

I am nervous about a lot of things these days though - and I don't know whether to talk to her about them or internalize it.

[u-turn]

As I expected, it didn't go well so far. I talked to her about NC and transparency - said it exactly how I wrote a few posts back.

She said nothing at first and walked away. Came back and said that she feels like we are back at the same spot again. she cannot re-open wounds and will not write a letter. "You have no idea what it's like to sit in a meeting with him. He knows it's over" She said - If this is a deal breaker for me than so be it.

I told her that is exactly what I want to do, get past this "same spot" and move forward.

She asked me where I got an idea like this.

I told her that I have researched recovering from affairs and this is a step.

She brought up old wounds of hers (spew) my family, my old work habits, her wanting me to change, and how I didn't address these with her when she wanted me to. "So now you want me to do something. I will not write this letter. I appreciate all of the support you have given me in the last two weeks (she thinks that has been where my support has begun for some reason) but I will not do this"

She left to go cool down.

I guess we are back at the same spot and if we cannot do something real at this point - not just brush everything away, we need to be done. This is what I though MAY happen.

Not reacting, not chasing. I will see if she changes her stance.

Could use some advice.....

[u-turn]

What I've learned.

Though she says she is recommitting to our marriage, I don't think that means she is recommitted.

Though she asks what she can do to help me, she doesn't really mean she wants to know and is hoping I'll just say "nothing - I'm ok). She doesn't want to put forth any effort accept being nice to me. She asked me if I wanted to find a MC a week ago (which I told her that I would like to do that), but I have doubts that she really means that.

Though she says it is over with OM, there is still probably something there. As little as - I am done with him, but I am good friends with him, or as much as - a full cover-up.

She wants this to be easy for her, but without real effort, I don't know how to move forward.

She didn't seem to run to him about this. She didn't throw the "I was just going to do something nice for you, and now you've ruined it" (as Sandi pointed out in another post today). She has done this all too often.

She is ignoring this now, but I will bring it up again. She is looking for a compromise on this.

[u-turn]

So now I don't know what to do:
-Scrap it all - step back to separation mode.
-Speak openly about what I really want and need in a marriage.
-Wait for action or watch more inaction from her.
-Reiterate what I said yesterday - demand this. (she has only focused on the letter, not about the message, not about the transparency).
-negotiate the letter part (if this is a deal breaker for her) - the message is important, but not as trustworthy
-Explain why I think this is necessary for her (PEAs, addiction...)

[Vapo]

Uturn, I am no vet, but it seems to me it is boundary time. If you have them, then you should start enforcing them and if you do not have them, then it is time to get some in place. If she is to return to you and the marriage IMO there can be NO FURTHER CONTACT of any sort with the OM. No friendship, do friendliness, no NOTHING. If she waffles on this then I would consider this a deal breaker.

So in a nutshell, I would do the boundary thing and she can decide what next. IMO you CANNOT nice her back and if you allow her to have contact with OM, you will just get screwed over (literally).

[u-turn]

Thanks Vapo,
She has been given my boundaries, seemed to have agreed with them, but will not provide the proof.

I agree that OM has to be gone now and forever. It has to be. I cannot live waiting for this to happen again, or look for signs that it hasn't stopped.

She will work with him for two more months - that's a painfully long time (for me) knowing how they were able interact at work before. This is a sore spot for me, but there is nothing I can do about it.

I think that if she will not write the letter, we need to have a discussion of the message, which goes back to my boundaries and things that I need.

I don't know if the sent letter is a deal breaker for me. but the content of it is. and her trustworthiness is. I just don't know how the regain trust without real action.

Sorry for this rant - She loves to brush off her responsibilities and make herself look like she is perfect to everyone. She also likes to find people that will listen to her without telling her she's wrong.
-affair - no big deal, move on. (I think she still thinks it is/was justified) (she actually threw me a little when she unearthed past issues from 15 years ago when I told her that I wanted the letter - she keeps trying to make me feel responsible for her A).
-DUI - meh, first time, no big deal.
-nearly totaled car, meh no big deal - insurance will cover it.
-Telling the kids nothing of what's going on (car's in the shop, she keeps the kids in complete darkness so she doesn't look bad. S17 is definitely catching on to that.

Mistakes happen, accidents happen, bad decisions happen. But at some point you have to face the music. This all has to catch up with her sometime.

[Sotto]

Hi U-Turn

I'm sorry to hear about your W's reaction. It does worry me that she has fallen quickly back into the M, but doesn't really seem to be willing to provide you with what you need at this point. She doesn't sound truly remorseful IMHO.

Only you can decide what you can live with. But you may want to consider saying to your W. You are free to make your own choices here. But I am telling you that this is a deal breaker for me. I will not recommit to you, without some specific action from you to draw a clear line under things with OM. It's up to you what you do, but I am telling you that 'we' can't move forwards together without that.

[u-turn]

Thanks Toots - I don't feel any remorse from her.

I am asking myself if I am being too impatient now - pushing too hard, but as it has gone, if I don't apply some pressure, it all just ends up back under the carpet. So I feel like I do need to at least get her idea of how to draw that line and show me that line.

on another note:

S20 stopped by today out of the blue. I haven't seen him since before Christmas as he has removed himself from our lives as he says. My expectations rose when I heard him, has he come home to talk? Nah. just picking up his W2 forms for taxes. Said hi to D15 and talked to her for a minute. He did give me a hug on his way out. He teared up and left. He is welcome to come home, but it is his move. He did drop out of college (temporarily), and is living with his girl friend and her family.

I don't know why it is easier for me to detach from him and say that he is on his own journey and has to discover things for himself. I think we raised him to succeed in life. This has been very difficult on him.

I have a hard time applying this same detachment to W and her journey.

another reminder of how much life has changed in the last 12 months. There are times when I just want to walk away.

[u-turn]

Ring back off - separate rooms again. She said that it was too early.

She said that my request really threw her off and she didn't know how to react to that. She still does not want to address this issue, does not want to write a letter. She told me again that in the past she has asked me to do things for her that I have not and she just had to deal with it. (she keeps bringing this up - it's her defense again. I told her that I've changed and that I am not taking the blame for her decisions. She said that she's not blaming me).

She told me that she can not feel what I am feeling and does not know what my pain is like - but she sees it in me every day. She feels like I will never be able to have a day without thinking about the A. She asked if I thought about it all of the time.

I told her I did not think about it all the time and I hope that the times got fewer and fewer.

I told her that I need to know that a line has been drawn with him and it will not be crossed again. I need a positive movement forward.

I asked her what she would want if our roles and situations were reversed. She responded with "do what we have been doing, getting closer." I think that is a cop out answer - I don't really think that's what she would want.

I believe that without professional help, we may be at an impasse. I may not be able to move forward with her without it to help work through all of our issues and have a safe place to talk openly and completely. I may not see the real issues that I caused in our M without it as I am reminded only when she's defending herself. She may not see the problems that she caused by acting this way without professional help.

When I asked her, she said she did mean that she would go, but not sure now and this is pretty typical (I was ready, but now look what you've done, you've ruined it).

She wants me to trust without asking questions. (That isn't working for me). I really feel like I've lost all that I've gained over the past couple of months. I didn't expect that her returning would twist me - I thought I would just feel good about it and all it did was make my suspicions and distrust surface again.

These are all my issues and I don't know how to fix them.

[Wonka]

U-turn,

I am sorry that you're feeling lost here. This is very, very tough.

Do not waver from your NC boundary with OM.

Is your W receptive to attending MC? Where is her mindset in that regard?

Again, what was your request specifically that threw her off? Was that the NC letter...right?

[u-turn]

She was receptive to MC, she was the one to mention it (2 weeks ago). She is seeing a Therapist at her work to discuss her attack and dui a couple of weeks ago. I don't think she is going to talk about her A to him.

I asked her this morning if she really meant she wanted to go to MC and she said I did mean it at the time. We did not have a very good reaction when we went to MC in May-June. She was deep,deep,deep with OM at that point which I didn't know (I believed it when she said it was over - yeesh) - it was a waste and maybe made things worse.

The NC letter request is what she is reacting to. I think she is reacting to the fact that I do not trust her, which in her mind may mean that I will never trust her - so this is a waste of time anyway.

I do not want to give an inch on NC boundary - though truth is better than the letter. I don't know if there is another way that she would be willing to prove NC. I don't know of any.

[PeterV2]

If she agrees to MC I would definitely go for it. But be very careful who you go see. I find it difficult to find a good one. They should be trained in SBT. Mine is, but I think she still has a deep-seated belief that adultery is a deal-breaker.

You want to find someone who believes that marriages can survive and be better after infidelity, and who can guide you through the reconciliation process.

Especially if W is willing. That's a good sign. My W thinks it's a waste of money right now. And she may be right at this juncture.

I sense a willingness on your W's part to at least roll up her sleeves and get working on your R.

[u-turn]

Thanks Peter - I would def. like to find the right MC and begin this - at least to help us with a safe place to talk.

I did say to her this morning that I want to talk tonight and asked if she would be willing. She said yes.

today she texted me several times that she was thinking of me and didn't like where we were at.

She said she wants to go somewhere on spring break (probably wants to drive to florida). Later asked again if I was interested (I didn't respond because I was busy at school)

I would normally be ok with this - it doesn't cost us much money (drive, stay with family, hang out at the beach). It is a bit of a painful place for me as this is where I caught and confronted her about the OM last year on spring break. I guess I need to get over that though.

I only responded by saying that I don't like where we are either and really want to figure this out.

Tonight I wanted to talk to her about
1. being happy that she is seeing an IC about her attack and the struggles she is having with that. Attackers W was supposed to call her but never did. I am glad she is doing something about it.

2. NC with OM and what that means to me. No contact (besides REQUIRED work related e-mail and meetings only). Not friends, no text, no games, no alternate e-mail addresses (which I know about and she would have to delete (if that's even possible)). I may have to restate the fact that I know everything that was going on and it all needs to stop. This may seem like I am bringing up old issues, but that is where my distrust comes from. I don't know if I need a letter (I'm not sure) but I really need her to know if she agrees with what the need is. (I think she doesn't think having him as a friend is a problem - I am mindreading about that though.)

3. MC - her willingness and who is finding this MC

and now
4. spring break


don't need to talk about anything else (dui, accident, money) unless she wants to.

[u-turn]

Found out she was with om yesterday at hotel.

Done. I am so stupid.

Give me strength to follow this through.

[Starsky309]

I'm so sorry, U. At least you do have clarity now. It is obvious that she was not sincere and the MCing was just going to be used by her as a ruse to show "I tried," for appearances.

What are you going to do? Are you 100% sure about the hotel?

Starsky

[u-turn]

100% sure she is lying to me when there is no need to anymore.

I don't exactly know what I'm going to do right now.

She will not leave. I think I am.

I hate what this is going to do to the kids.

[u-turn]

I gave her a chance to tell me the truth - convoluted lies came out - she can't even keep track of her lies.

She was angry at me - twisting it to say that I will never trust her and what's wrong with me. That I didn't do what she asked years ago.

I said that maybe she's right - I cannot forget about this on my own. We cannot get past this. I needed things that you wouldn't give me.

I said that she will have to find a place to live. She said she would not leave and will not divorce me until D15 is out of high school.

I told her that I would not live this lie and cover for her and torture myself while she does whatever she wants for 3 years so she can hide the truth from everyone.

She brought up OMs feelings (OH MY GOD). I asked why the hell I would care about his feelings. This guy and W are killing my family. I said the only person I feel truly bad for is OMW and I feel that is another burden that I have (I never told her - she doesn't know). OM and my W are truly messed up souls.

It's a mess and I really have no money to get my own apartment right now. I do not have anywhere to go.

She says she is fighting a losing battle (I told her that is exactly how I feel), but here it is - she wins. I feel like I am trapped.

And then what about our kids?

[Zues126]

U turn. I don't have any easy answers about LOGISTICS. But I have one question for you- why are you even talking to her?

She's not your W. She's not going to be reasonable. I would think of her as nothing more than a robot that will screw another man, spew at you relentlessly, and then use your emotions to avoid consequences. She will do this every time you push the push the big red button called "having a conversation". Why keep pushing the button expecting different results?

I get it. It is devastating to realize. But now that the facts are 100% clear to you, act according to those facts. Nothing you say will result in any positive movement be it for her or for you.

What would you do if you KNEW she'd never change from the way she is behaving right now? I'd recommend doing that.

[u-turn]

What would you do if you KNEW she'd never change from the way she is behaving right now? I'd recommend doing that.

Thanks Zues - hurts but thanks. This is how I need to act.

She has said she's changed 100 times. She said it was over with him. We were to work on us now. LIES AGAIN.

[u-turn]

Whiny complaint:

Caught myself crying this morning while researching living options - I haven't cried in a long time. It's like a new bomb drop.

I think I see how this is going to go. I am going to be the a-hole that gives up and breaks the family. While I am planning my future, now she is super-mom-ing and best friend-ing the kids (which I see as more manipulation of them and me).

I have shut down talks with W. I told her that I will not move forward with her - this will not work (that's it).

Should I try to compete with her for the attention of the kids? It seems futile right now.

[Zues126]

Vets- please chime in! Bump!

[PeterV2]

I would tell her to leave. You should stay in the house. Pack her bags for her and toss her out.
Get advice from your lawyer as to what you can and can't do. Can you change the locks?

[u-turn]

At this point, she will not leave on her own. She says she won't.

I can't physically force her out. I can try to make it miserable for her here (makes me look like an ass to the kids). I can change the locks while she's out (maybe makes me look like a psychopath to the kids - sounds like it would be traumatizing for them).

I hate the idea of giving up and leaving, but maybe it's best for the kids.

I am ready to find/see a Lawyer, - I have not done so yet. I also never fully followed through with separating my finances from hers. This is a must tomorrow (new bank account at a different bank - new direct deposit).
----
She left with D15 and on her way out she came into my office and said "sorry I haven't talked to you - I am not avoiding you"

I said, I am not avoiding you either, I just don't think we have anything to talk about at this point. I don't want to talk about this.

She looked confused (what? - u-turn is saying he doesn't want to talk about this?)

She asked "what do you want me to do?"

I told her she could do anything she wants - it is not my business any more.

She looked at me, started to cry and said "I love you u-turn g-damnit" (I'm not sure that I have ever not responded to an ILY - I just couldn't)

I looked at her with my shocked face - I could not believe what I was hearing and I'm afraid I showed it. I did not respond.

She left - I do suspect she is going to try talking to me later again.

I had lunch with S17, he knows something is happening, knows we are hurting (the whole family is hurting), but he is all on-board with the playful super-mom thing too. I would be too if I didn't know it was a ruse.

[u-turn]

I made her cry because of what I said. I wasn't shaming her or using angry words or tone. Actually almost a whisper - as I didn't want the kids to hear. I didn't say all of the things that were running through my mind because I didn't want to re-hash a year of pain, I didn't want to sound like I am not taking any responsibility and only pointing my finger at her. I didn't want to make a scene with this and take off my ring and hand it to her. I just wanted her to know.

30 minute conversation with the fewest words ever (maybe)

her: "what's on your mind?"
me: after much thought and clinched teeth. "I don't think we can move forward from this"
her: waiting for more
me: "I think I'm done W"
People that I have talked to here and in real life, I'll know when I'm done.
her: later after much pacing the room and crying. "will this make you happy?"
me: long pause "I don't know"

I know there is not much here, but she got it. Like I said, I don't think I need to go into the details (she should already know). She went to bed and I don't think she could make her look up. She knows that this is it, that we will never be the same. That this will not work. I don't know if she feels the pain that I have felt, but I think she may understand a little more. She knows that I don't give up like this.

She knows that I am defeated - if this is what she wanted to win, she won.

Painful for me, and maybe painful for her.

But I have to move on with my life, there are other people that need me, that value me, that have expectations of me that I am proud and happy to give to. (my kids, family, friends, students, clients, strangers....).

My school is undergoing a accreditation review for the next three days and I have to be on my best. wish me luck..

[Starsky309]

A

I am ready to find/see a Lawyer, - I have not done so yet. I also never fully followed through with separating my finances from hers. This is a must tomorrow (new bank account at a different bank - new direct deposit).

She bomb-dropped you 14 months ago, and you found out she was having an affair 12 months ago . . . and you haven't done any of these things yet???

[Starsky309]

I told her that I would not live this lie and cover for her and torture myself while she does whatever she wants for 3 years so she can hide the truth from everyone.

. . . I said the only person I feel truly bad for is OMW and I feel that is another burden that I have (I never told her - she doesn't know).

That poor woman. Why should she be the only one of the four affected, to NOT know the truth about what's going on, so she can make her own decisions accordingly?


Starsky

[u-turn]

She bomb-dropped you 14 months ago, and you found out she was having an affair 12 months ago . . . and you haven't done any of these things yet??? confused

I have not done the right things. I have trusted that this would end, that she would end it, that she would see that this is wrong.

I was the one that was wrong. stupid and naive. Now I HAVE to act instead of hoping.
--------
That poor woman. Why should she be the only one of the four affected, to NOT know the truth about what's going on, so she can make her own decisions accordingly?

I feel so guilty about this - this is all on me. But I will feel guilty when I tell her - She may be blindly happy without this information. Damned either way.

[u-turn]

As far as a lawyer goes - I thought this was something that I could handle on my own too. You know, I have done so well with everything else so far.

I am changing that naive mentality too.

But part of me is in the "I don't care. take everything from me and let me move on" state of mind.

Question about OMW: this has been a sore spot for me for the entire time. What is my responsibility? would you want to know if you didn't? would you want to find out from me? Would telling her make me look like a punitive fool? How do I even begin to tell someone about this? (I know their address, home phone number). Show up with proof, ask her if she wants to know? Will OMW think I am to blame for the demise of her family? What if she flips out (which is probably likely)? or worse, what if she doesn't think it is a big deal (I can't imagine that this would happen)?

I am bothered by telling her and not her. I have nothing to gain by telling her.

My W knows this all bothers me too.

[Starsky309]

Question about OMW: this has been a sore spot for me for the entire time. What is my responsibility? would you want to know if you didn't? would you want to find out from me? Would telling her make me look like a punitive fool? How do I even begin to tell someone about this? (I know their address, home phone number). Show up with proof, ask her if she wants to know? Will OMW think I am to blame for the demise of her family? What if she flips out (which is probably likely)? or worse, what if she doesn't think it is a big deal (I can't imagine that this would happen)?

u-t, I can already tell by the way you have framed all of these questions (and even answered some of them) that your mind is already made up here, so I won't try to convince you otherwise. If it were me, I would definitely want to know.


Starsky

[u-turn]

I would too.
I waited. I didn't want to do more damage to my M. I didn't want this to be the reason for the end (I made a stupid promise to my W early in my situation - which I honored thinking I was taking the high road - more manipulation). So I think I need to release this to her. But don't know how.

[Train]

u,

Sometimes strategy is important. Sometimes being a decent human being trumps "strategy."

When my H was cheating, I chose (after knowing about the A for a few weeks) to approach OWH - at his home - with proof at a time when I knew OW was on an overnight "date" with my H. I didn't do it for a result - good or bad. I honestly didn't care what happened with my M at that time and was undecided if I wanted it anymore. Personally, I felt it was my duty - my obligation - as a decent human being to tell the poor man that his W was having unprotected sex with another man. I would have wanted to know.

[skr4luv]

U-turn, I feel like i'm the same situation.
I'm sorry it turned out this way.

You mentioned that, if you're going to leave the house,
everyone will think you have abandonded the kids.

Can you not tell your kids and everyone else the truth
about the A so they will understand why you will leave?

[u-turn]

I know I am still focusing on her - but....

She claims she is feeling like she is of no value at home to the kids and me. She is not needed.

She spent the evening sobbing.

She said she was thinking of going away from everyone forever. Killing herself.

This scares me.

I told her she is still the kids mother and they need her.

She wants to talk about this, get out of here, still go away to Florida.

I don't have much time to write right now, but will update later.

Thanks to all who are keeping up with my mess.

[HeavyD]

I will be praying for you and your wife and your family. I am so very sorry you are in this mess.

I hope this all works out.

[Starsky309]

U-turn, if she has threatened suicide, you need to call 9-1-1. Immediately.

Not even a question.

[u-turn]

I don't believe she was threatening - more telling me she thought about it. I don't know how to continue this. It's all manipulation - when I push back she out does me with things like this. (gaslighting?)

The game keeps changing - suicide now. It made me stop, pull back. I told her things that I shouldn't (I've often thought about suicide - I know it just gives my pain to those that I love so I know to look for other options).

It twists me. I need to get back on track because I think she just wants to play happy family - while OM is out of town with his family. She keeps manipulating the situation.

Should I call her out on all of the lies I believe she is telling or does it even matter?

sorry - short post again - I really have a lot to say but not a lot of time.

Thanks!!!!

[u-turn]

So as I get my bearings again (maybe) and come home to a mailbox full of attorney letters (for Ws dui arrest), I am trying to formulate tonight's conversation.

I see so many things that say that she is lying about OM and they are still together, still contacting each other - she will likely keep denying that and make me seem like I am paranoid and crazy. I think that she thinks that I believe her BS. I do not have hard proof, just all of the stories that she is telling me not making sense, obvious lies, I've seen timed receipts from locations that couldn't be possible if her stories were true.

We talked about suicide not being an answer to anything. Made some weird agreement about this this morning. I don't know what to think of this, but I did over-share with her my own thoughts of suicide in the past (I didn't tell her of the frequency of this).

Later I texted her an apology for telling her this and she said she was glad I did.

I texted her that I want to talk with her tonight if we get the opportunity. and she responded with:
"ok"
"that doesn't sound good"
"texts like that are so ominous"

I haven't responded to her because 1-didn't want to, and 2-was much too busy, and 3-not an appropriate conversation to have over text.

Am I wrong to call her out on what I see? I have not changed my opinion of me being done with this, but I believe in her mind she thinks we are on the mend (swept away again). Will this push her too much? I look at her life right now and see nothing but a mess - how does she not see that?

I see her wanting to make it one more week and go to florida. I don't think that would be good for me. I am thinking, if she brings this up again, that I will tell her to go with the kids. Without me. I will not make any excuses to the kids about me having too much work.

This would be a painful trip for me - bad memories from last year's trip - A discovered.
It would be painful for the kids if I don't go.
It will let people know that we are having troubles - which I am ok with.
But I don't think I am taking this stance to make a point. I just don't think we can take a happy family trip.
We are not a happy family - I should not vacation with my W who is having an A.

I think that I am going to ask her to let me see her phone right now, that is how I can begin believing her. If I give her warning of this she will quickly delete everything. She will refuse I'm sure.

[Starsky309]

I don't believe she was threatening - more telling me she thought about it. I don't know how to continue this. It's all manipulation - when I push back she out does me with things like this. (gaslighting?)

The game keeps changing - suicide now. It made me stop, pull back. I told her things that I shouldn't (I've often thought about suicide - I know it just gives my pain to those that I love so I know to look for other options).

If I'm right, you possibly save her life and the life of the mother of your children.

If you're right, worst case you've now:

a) opened up a police and most likely a medical record, which could be useful going forward; and

b) you've shown her if she's going to play that card, you're going to take it seriously. Every. Single. Time. If she's NOT serious about the threat, then you watch how quickly this will stop her from pushing THAT button again!

[u-turn]

Thanks for sharing that Starsky - yes this sounds very familiar. (obviously didn't get through your WHOLE story - man what a story!)

Had a start of a deep talk last night, but the kids know something is up an D15 sat with us for an hour wanting to kid around and be fun, which is not always like her. She stayed until after W gave up and fell asleep.

We did talk about my distrust and I asked her to see her phone.
She declined and asked if that is really what I want, that would really help.

It would. My guess is that she will give it to me tonight after she's cleaned it. Argg!! (see - there's my phone, nothing on it)

Thanks again for keeping up

[Zues126]

Uturn, I have read your sitch but this morning the details aren't all clear in my memory bank. But what I see right NOW is this:

You have a WW wife that is in an affair, is lying to you, playing you emotionally, and essentially out of control. She is addicted to OM and is grabbing at anything and everything to make her feel better. The words she is speaking will be inconsistent and irrational because she isn't operating on any type of consistent values or logic, but instead just spewing out words based on where her emotions are on her internal rollercoaster.

You, on the other hand, are reacting to each of her phases of the roller coaster like they are true or real, or as if you think she'll get off this ride because you ask her to nicely.

Cadet says to DETACH, GAL. Why are you on the roller coaster with her? I get so FRUSTRATED watching guys "have conversations" with their WW's. Why are we having conversations? You already know the script. More lying, manipulation, emotional blackmail. Seriously. What is the point?

Stop talking. Start acting. Speak through ACTIONS ONLY. If you tell her "you're done" she won't believe you anyway because the very act of TELLING HER is PROVING that you are still attached. Instead you need to pull up your pants, check your ID and remind yourself who the F you are, slap yourself in the face a few times to get fired up, and TAKE CONTROL of the situation.

Boundaries- CHECK
Detaching- CHECK
GAL- CHECK
No more conversations- CHECK

If you don't take control of the situation you're going to get run over and mowed down again and again until you feel like a pathetic victim. Don't go there any further.

[Starsky309]

We did talk about my distrust and I asked her to see her phone.
She declined and asked if that is really what I want, that would really help.

It would. My guess is that she will give it to me tonight after she's cleaned it. Argg!! (see - there's my phone, nothing on it)

Of course. If she offers, I would say "No, no need to now that you've wiped it clean. Not showing it to me when I asked you last nite told me everything I need to know, thanks."

[Starsky309]

Uturn, I have read your sitch but this morning the details aren't all clear in my memory bank. But what I see right NOW is this:

You have a WW wife that is in an affair, is lying to you, playing you emotionally, and essentially out of control. She is addicted to OM and is grabbing at anything and everything to make her feel better. The words she is speaking will be inconsistent and irrational because she isn't operating on any type of consistent values or logic, but instead just spewing out words based on where her emotions are on her internal rollercoaster.

You, on the other hand, are reacting to each of her phases of the roller coaster like they are true or real, or as if you think she'll get off this ride because you ask her to nicely.

Cadet says to DETACH, GAL. Why are you on the roller coaster with her? I get so FRUSTRATED watching guys "have conversations" with their WW's. Why are we having conversations? You already know the script. More lying, manipulation, emotional blackmail. Seriously. What is the point?

Stop talking. Start acting. Speak through ACTIONS ONLY. If you tell her "you're done" she won't believe you anyway because the very act of TELLING HER is PROVING that you are still attached. Instead you need to pull up your pants, check your ID and remind yourself who the F you are, slap yourself in the face a few times to get fired up, and TAKE CONTROL of the situation.

Boundaries- CHECK
Detaching- CHECK
GAL- CHECK
No more conversations- CHECK

If you don't take control of the situation you're going to get run over and mowed down again and again until you feel like a pathetic victim. Don't go there any further.

. . . and, "BINGO."

[u-turn]

Thank you Zues and Starsky!

I agree!
I do.
I have been riding this roller coaster by choice.
I am getting off. We are figuring out how to tell the kids.

I do know that there is no point in her showing me the phone now - it is pointless and I don't think she will even do that now. She does not want me invading her privacy even when she has had full access to everything of mine - no secrets, no hiding (kind of beside the point now though)


We are separating - and we will get distance. (I am separating as a step for divorce, she may have other ideas)

She has admitted the lies. (she says she was sparing our feeling). She just gave me the ILYB we ANIL.

She wants to physically separate too. I feel like this is a good step.

She has been blowing up my phone today and I have not responded yet and don't think I will at this point. She is sending me information about a "birds nest co-parent arrangement. Which maybe makes some sense.

Anyone ever do this? Kids stay at home all the time, parents alternate one at a time, and have small apartment somewhere else.....

Thanks again for everyone's support - I need it.

I don't think she will feel the impact of me being gone though. We would have equal kid time, but I will still be taking care the house. I don't know if we will feel separated.

[Starsky309]

Not a fan of the "birds nest" thing unless you're okay with sleeping in a small apartment that your wayward wife just used the night before for having sex with her OM.

Ewwww.

Plus, it confuses the kids.


Starsky

[u-turn]

my thoughts exactly - I'm still losing.

I just need to be away from this.

[jim0987]

U

Just my opinion but a birds nest arrangement is just enabling the affair and wont do anything for you because none of it will be your space.

Home isnt a house its a feeling and what kids need from you is a home that gives the stability and warmth not a house just because its familiar.

[u-turn]

Thanks Jim - I feel the same way. I understand the kids always stay in their bedroom but without having 3 separate residences (hers, mine and kids - sounds absurd and we cannot afford this). I think the kids are old enough to handle a real separation and divorce. I know nothing is ideal for them. I think we will all be alright.

I think W is grasping for things that will make it easier on her and may not have to admit to people that this is really happening.

I am not comfortable with this type of arrangement.

[CaliGuy]

She is, she wants to have her cake and eat it too, she needs to feel the impact of losing you and the family ... So far she had been getting her way even if I agreed with the birds nest thing I wouldn't do it just for the sake of not allowing her the easy way out

She should leave , she chose this not you

[Sherman333]

I'm in 100% agreement on the birds nest idea. It would only make things easier for her.

Its a waste of resources that would be better spent on your future with the kids or GAL.

[Sotto]

I'm in 100% agreement on the birds LOVE nest idea. It would only make things easier for her.

Its a waste of resources that would be better spent on your future with the kids or GAL.

[u-turn]

Thanks Sherman and Toots
I agree that this is not a solution that will help - I will still be caught in this web. The information that she found about this type of arrangement states that it is good for the kids and puts all of the burden on the parents. I don't know if this is true and I don't know if it is healthy for them. I could not do this with just 2 residences and 3 is just ridiculous.

I think they need to know that we are two separate parents and though it will impact them, it is reality. Not just another lie.

We did not talk at all last night. We did go to the kids swim banquet as a family, but came home and silence.

[u-turn]

I have not decided yet, but I think that I will move out. It is not what I want and not how I envisioned this, but maybe it's best for the kids. Nothing is really how I envisioned it anyway. I don't want her alternative and just want to get on with this.

I can (maybe) afford a 2 bedroom apt in my area and give up my bedroom when I have the kids. Doesn't sound ideal, actually sounds pretty shtty, but I am resilient.

I am giving up a lot at this point. Really feel like I would be starting over in life. But it is a foot forward.

I never responded to Ws text comments or bird nest s idea but I guess we need to figure this out at some point.

[Starsky309]

DO NOT MOVE OUT. If she wants to be apart, SHE can move! She's the one having the affair and wanting to end the marriage!

There are very few topics on DB that garner near-100% consensus. This is one of them.

Knock off the "woe is me" crap and LEAD YOUR FAMILY. Your kids need a hero, and it's obviously not going to be your wife right now.

Starsky

[Cadet]

DO NOT MOVE OUT!

It is the single worst thing that you can do.

There have been books written about this one thing saying exactly the same thing.

Stay in the MBR and stay in the house!

[u-turn]

Short post - battle on - thanks cadet & starsky


she thinks all of this is about growing apart and is surprised that I believe otherwise.

She has agreed to move out.
Spew: don't forget you got what you want. you can make me look bad for the rest of your life.

I don't want to engage in retorts or comebacks

All for now. Will stay strong and lead!!!!

[PeterV2]

Good news that she's agreed to move out. The sooner the better.

Sure she'll spew - don your spew jacket.

Be the rock. Way to go U-turn!

BTW it's not you that's making her look bad - it's her own behaviour that is.

You never know - once she moves out and you separate your finances she may be faced with the stark reality of the consequences of her choices. She may want to come back home, but at that point you can dictate the conditions 100% - Dear John letter to OM, full transparency, MC, etc. if you even want her back at that point.

But I truly believe this is want she needs at this time. A good dose of reality.

[u-turn]

Thanks Peter.
I know the sooner the better - and I wish it would happen right now, but that is unlikely. I will not believe it until I see her go - she so often goes back on what she says, and I cannot force her out.

She still believes the birds nest thing is a better solution, but I told her why I didn't.

I still think all of that idea is to protect her image with the kids and everyone else. She was surprised that this is about infidelity to me (I am surprised that she is surprised by this ). She may now be panicking a little that people will now start finding out about her and us.

That is why I know she is going to tell everyone that we "just grew apart" and "u-turn did not believe in or support my change of career" . That kind of makes me sick to hear - we didn't grow apart and why on earth would I not like her getting a better job and secure career (kids are older, financial burden is not all on me). I am not going to tell the kids that marriages are disposable and it's alright to D when people change. I want them to know that a M is worth fighting for and I have.

I will not lie to the kids. She may look bad (I am not going to try to make her look bad intentionally), but this is because of her decisions. (She will say it's me that wants this) I will own my part to everyone, but this is not about growing apart. I did tell her that she has to own her part of this - (she said she does every day)

I know that others have come back from this - but I don't know if I want to - I can't really even imagine it.

Just got my spew jacket back from the cleaners - just in time.

[u-turn]

It is hard for me to hold my ground with this. It is not usually in my nature - I am a compromiser (if that's a thing) a giver, a your needs above my own type of person. This is opposite of what I have ever done. It does feel empowering, but makes me feel like an a-hole too.

Yesterday, she said she went to speak to her aunt about an empty condo that she could rent - I said that's good.

Today she's back to tears. She feels we are acting out of anger. She asked me if we could go see a MC to work through this and help see each other's perspectives and not act out of anger (I don't feel angry by the way). and eventually take the kids to help them cope. I said that I would consider this. I don't think it is to R at this point, but it may help us cope.

Then she asked me if I would like to plan something with her and the kids to get away for a couple days. I don't know about this and I told her that (I think she was again surprised by my reluctance). She said she is going to go. Maybe she should just go with them somewhere.

found yesterday that her license is now suspended and has a court date set for dui.

I am working today so S17 & I can go fishing tomorrow or Tuesday.

[Sotto]

U-turn, I think you know the answers to your own questions already here.

Your W sounds like she is trying to draw you back in - into a trip, into MC. And if you allow yourself to get drawn in again that way - you'll be off around the loop again.

Because your W is still foggy and still involved with OM, and still hasn't done the work and so on. FWIW, I think holding firm is the line to take here, and if your W wants to go and rent a condo - great...

[Vanilla]

U turn

I wanted to interject and I usually refrain until I have read all the threads. I have read through your last four and will read the remaining ones by Wednesday.

So bearing that in mind, I agree you should stay in your home and W move out. You are the steady parent in this sitch. The non wayward one. I had not picked up in my quick read and in my notes if you had read No More Mr Nice Guy, but I believe you should do so, it was an eye opener for me.

MC is a very poor choice whilst there is an A or compulsive activity. Effective IC yes by the bucket loads, fantastic but MC is an excuse for a WW to say "I tried everything" in the hope that MC will agree the M is over. This can be an easy way to be let off the hook. So if it were me then I would say " MC only when your A is finished". I agree with Toots another go on the merry go round with that.

Your bed WW To lie in.

If WW wants a trip away with the teenagers her choice, knowing she has no license let her deal with it. Be firm, the boys could go if WW has proper transport arranged, please let her handle it. She has a DUI that is very serious stuff and no insurance. This is other than being an ah, in fact it is the reverse of that. It is letting WW make her decisions and implementing, it is stopping 'back control' which is passive control tactic. It is upfront, honest and has integrity. The reverse of your thinking, DB is counter intuitive!

You may want to consider your teenagers safety, although perhaps the older boys drive?

You may be aware that I fostered children, teenagers mainly. Your oldest S will be most likely aware of the truth already. The others are old enough to handle their R with their mother. Whilst I agree that lies are unnecessary, then please do not "truth" out to make a point with WW. A considered attitude of "dad is unhappy about the M sitch" and "your mum is making her own choices, it is not my place to say"., would cover it.

U-turn this is tough love, and hard to implement. I am sending you peace across the miles.

V

[u-turn]

Thanks Toots
I think I have been around here for a long time and do know the answers to many of my questions - I know shes just throwing everything at me that she thinks will work. I am trying not to be affected by it. She wants everything status quo.

The thing about wanting to rent the condo - it's not that she wants to - it is me forcing it. She is saying that this is all about me now, giving me what I want. I have asked her to leave a couple times and she says she is giving that to me. I think she will not go and will try other forms of manipulation (kids, visitation, money, her legal troubles, my failures) to push this off. I think this is where the MC offer is coming from.

Her claim is she is not involved with OM, but I feel differently - her stories make no sense, she is not doing any work to prove this to me. I still feel that it is something she is hiding.

If she were to leave I would just watch her go and get on with things. As things are right now, we are still too intertwined.

[u-turn]

Thank you Vanilla for looking in on me!
I have read NMMNG. It is written about me and hard for me to change that (though I'm trying).

I am staying in my home - I have decided this. She may not leave - she is welcome to do so, but when it comes down to it I don't really think she will.

Here is my take on MC and I believe that this is different than other people have commented to me. I really don't think she wants to end our M. She is free to do so and I think she know this. She wants our M to remain as is. So I believe that this is just to appease me, to say - look everything's better now - lets continue. But with this in mind, would a MC convince her that this is not a viable way to have our marriage? It may just be a waste of time and money.

She is claiming that the A is finished. I don't believe this. Her stories do not make sense to me, she is not offering any proof, she is doing no work to convince me otherwise. She has only defended my suspicions with odd stories. (Could I be off of my rocker and so paranoid that nothing she says will be enough for me - that is a remote possibility. But if that's the case, we should just move on because maybe I will never trust her again and I don't want to live like that).

If she plans a trip - I am telling her that I do not want to go. I feel this is for her own selfishness and I would just be a driver. I think she will not go then and blame me for wrecking the kids spring break. They will survive - I will try to do things with them daily.

By the way this would only be with D15 and S17. S20 has moved on and has washed his hands of us. Maybe he has figured all of this out, but I really don't know.


Thanks for your wisdom!

[Starsky309]

Marriage counseling would be a waste of time and money.

Maybe, MAYBE I would offer to do FT (family therapy), with you, your wife, and your three children. They are all old enough, and maybe some good could come of that as you'd have the FT's assistance in dealing with some feelings about the damage that's already been done to the family. But I wouldn't do MCing.


Starsky

[Georgiabelle]

^^^^^^

Yes (save the $$$), and quite frankly, the MC wouldn't *convince* your W of anything.

Hang in there:)

[CaliGuy]

U-turn

I have followed your sitch as we arrived here about the same time. (Just looked ..SAME DAY .. lol) I don't always comment but I have kept up. I feel some parallels with your sitch and mine, like you said I agree your W does not want to end the M, she is cake eating or attempting too.

Like you I had the impression MC might have some good come out of it .... we went in May , like you my W said the A was over, like you I was not trusting ... my gut told me differently but I figured getting her into MC we could figure things out. Well ... the OM was still in the picture and the MC was nothing more than a "See I tried ... we just don't work" move. So yeah ... do not waste your time there.

If your W truly wants to save the M, she will pull out all the stops to prove to you she is committed, owning the pain she caused, wanting to start to clean up the mess she made. the NMMNG touches on some key points ... but yeah for guys like us its tough to be the 'ahole' ... however its not being that way, its being confident we no longer need to put up with this emotional abuse, we can and will survive if not flourish without them if need be.... I told my W I know where I am going and it would be great if she was a part of that .. but just the same I will be just dandy without her and I meant it .. when she started seeing it was true things began to change and continue to do so ... she tests often trust me .. but I am still forging forward, its up to them to catch up.

Do not compromise ... you know she will not respect that, hold your ground .. its tough love time .. she has had you where she wanted up till now and you acknowledge she is pulling out the stops to keep you in check .. be strong and hold firm ... I was told here .. "she is gone anyway .. nothing to lose at this point right?"

[u-turn]

Thanks Starsky & Georgiabelle - I think maybe the money for this could go to IC for me and hopefully for W.

All along or at least early in my sitch she has said that we need to work on ourselves before we can work on our marriage. This was and is true (clear statement of what DB is all about too) and pre-db I was skeptical of this concept - I just wanted it all back. But I feel that her position and my position have swapped now (she wants to fix M and not work on herself) and I have a hard time believing her "changes"

Caliguy - started on the same day - does that make us twins? Thanks for your support. I've come to realize that I am truly unhappy with the way my life with her has become and not just upset about the cheating and lying. I do not want to continue this way with her and would rather end it all with her than continue feeling like this. I feel that any compromise would just eat further at me. makes me less me (if this makes any sense at all).

As I twist: I didn't go with W & D15 last night to wherever they were going. I told her that I had plans - this is completely not what I would normally do (I also didn't really have plans except to not go with her).

She texted me later "why are you unhappy?"

Why am I unhappy? You have no idea? She's trying to get me to open up to her again - seemingly not to fight, she seems to want to help me. She keeps saying that.

I did respond "I don't like any of this but don't know how to change it - I am unhappy with all of it." (probably weak statement from me)

today she asked again to talk (text), I did respond to her:
I am unhappy with us
I am unhappy with you
I am unhappy with me

w: all things we know and need to work on.

me: I am worried that I am not going to be able to make it back from this (maybe that was cryptic and didn't make sense)

she asked if I am suicidal. (I don't know why she would get this feeling - I don't share these thoughts with her (aside from the one time))

She wants to talk tonight and perhaps journal our daily thoughts to each other and share this with each other.

I don't know what to think of this - is this more manipulation or trying to get into my mind more? or Does she really care?

Thoughts about this journal?

For a year I've been hoping for a change and for her to open up to me and share her feelings (pre-db I was the one who was sharing my feelings and asking her to do this to)(since db, I have shut down sharing my feelings and I have really gotten used to this - I am not completely comfortable opening myself up to her because I don't feel safe with her having this information).

I don't really know how to put this, but I am a little confused by this change.

[Starsky309]

U,

It's not your job to assuage her guilt, and to make her feel better about her destructive choices.

"I'll be fine" should be your only response. "Not what I would have chosen, but I'll be fine -- I realize that now."


Starsky

[Vanilla]

U,

I think you need Intel, how can you make any decision until you know if there is an A or not?

If this were me then it would be huge red flag time, in fact huge red velvet curtain time. All the action back stage, rather than front of house. Sounds like acting the part. Brian Rix farce time.

The journaling sounds like WW is trying to box you in, know your feelings, movements etc. I am not in piecing and have no experience but my spider sense says danger on this.

V

[u-turn]

The journaling sounds like WW is trying to box you in, know your feelings, movements etc.

This is what I am afraid of.

Aside from me going full on psychopath and following her around or hiring a PI, I have no intel. I don't think I want to live that way.

---

I had a major and almost uncontrollable break down last night - it makes me worry about my own sanity and well being. I will update later.

I am finding an IC for myself today.

[Vanilla]

The journaling sounds like WW is trying to box you in, know your feelings, movements etc.

This is what I am afraid of.

Aside from me going full on psychopath and following her around or hiring a PI, I have no intel. I don't think I want to live that way.

---

I had a major and almost uncontrollable break down last night - it makes me worry about my own sanity and well being. I will update later.

I am finding an IC for myself today.

All you need to know is if this is continuing AP. I understand the reluctance on the Intel.

U it is very important that you have support. IC is a fantastic idea. let us know how it goes. I am sending you all of my extra special support today


V

[Starsky309]

Aside from me going full on psychopath and following her around or hiring a PI, I have no intel. I don't think I want to live that way.

What "way?" Knowing the truth, so that you can act accordingly? How are her current clouds of deceit serving you?

For the LIFE of me I don't understand why so many on these forums want to be WILLFULLY in the dark. You're flying the jumbo jet of your marriage and family through storms and rains, and you're ignorantly turning off your instruments.


Starsky

[u-turn]

I have no reluctance about finding out the truth - it is what I wanted all along. I am not saying that the intel would not serve me well. I feel like I am at my wit's end with being suspicious - it is not a character trait that I think is positive for me.

I do not want to live in a life of being suspicious about every move she makes. It is not fair to either of us - I have driven myself crazy with this and want to be a normal happy person again.

The best I can do right now as far as intel (that I can think of) is reach out to a common "friend" of ours and ask her if W is still lying to me. Friend may or may not answer me (she's a closer friend of my W that of me - her confidant, she knows everything.) I don't think friend would lie to me - as she's given me advice to prepare myself and do what's best for myself and kids before - meaning end this madness with W - W is gone. I think she will give me positive news about W or refuse to answer my question (which will give me an answer (but no physical proof)). I do feel this friend has let us down throughout this - she has not been a good advocate for our marriage (though that is not her responsibility).

I guess my statement of not wanting to live this way is a statement of - I'm not sure that I want to be married to her any more.

[Starsky309]

Don't ask the friend. She's likely not going to be truthful with you, and it'd only get back to your wife anyway.

To me, the UNKNOWN is always worse than the KNOWN. I didn't want to live in "suspicion" either, which is why I chose only to deal with hard facts and data points. Yes, it was hard, but it prevented me from making all sorts of strategic and tactical mistakes, and even emotionally it helped me detach (trust me, the "loving" part of "loving detachment" was much more difficult than the "detachment" part with some of the intel I saw and heard about what she was doing!).


Starsky

[Starsky309]

From my personal archives:



On snooping “makes you nuts” – I say just the opposite! :

You know, it's funny, but every time I get into one of our frequent "Snooping is bad!" debates around here (I am very pro-intel, as you all know), one of the arguments that the anti-snooping crowd always give is, basically, "It'll make you nuts!"

I contend just the opposite. Us humans are wired to fear -- to "go nuts" -- over the UNKNOWN, not the KNOWN.

[Vapo]

Yep, Starsky, if the WAW is gaslighting you then snooping is ok. But if the A is out in the open, then clearly snooping will lead nowhere but to more hurt...

[Starsky309]

I would contend that it can continue to protect you from financial and legal threats. If a betrayed spouse can't handle the raw intel themselves, then I usually suggest that they enlist the help of a trusted third party, to review the intel daily and give them only an "executive summary"-type report say once a month. That third party can notify them immediately if there are any imminent threats.

[Vanilla]

Ahhhhhh.......

I distinguish between Intel and snooping.

Intel is the info I need to determine my actions, make myself secure. A little like doing a credit check on a future business partner or checking that I am investing in the correct assets. Looking into whether an L is qualified, a builder genuine etc.

I keep evidence, that which I need to have to know my exact sitch. Call logs, credit cards, texts, emails etc. not hear say or friends of friends. Recordings and photos I include too.

Snooping, prying and stalking is different. That is control and if you snoop you get poop. Mainly because the one being checked on alters their behaviour to suit. If they know that you check then what you get is not Intel but edited.

Once you know the position, it's an EA or a PA with X type person, then Intel is needed to know how long it has been going on and what type of person X is. Are there others. Is this a serial sitch, is joint cash being used etc. in some cases it is in the open and easy to know. In others secretive and wriggling to hide it. Let the wayward lie their way out of Intel.

So in my book there is Intel to know for certain and psych stuff which is crazy loco and very unhelpful. That W met X on 2nd of dec in 'hotel scuzzy' and has exchanged 25 texts and 200 messages since. Used the joint credit card for paying for 5 meals. Meets every 10 o'clock on second thursday of every month with a bunch of daffodils. X is the boss married 3 times and has two other As. That is Intel. Whatever is needed to confirm establish and protect is fine in my book. I am with Starsky on this one.

Often Intel is in plain sight, a quick check on a phone to establish a number and yes, if a PI is needed go do it.

Our lovely Pink tracked her H to his hotel lair, followed him and made sure he knew she was there. V traced H to a pub where POW was in residence with her H and boldly introduced herself. She also contacted and met with another POW. In all cases the wayward knows and there is no further hiding, the gig is up. Once the gig is up then accept no lies "we both know that is untrue". Confirm, confidential and then consult L. No point in having good Intel and not acting on it. OD found cards and letters in the MBR, Joe overhears telephone calls.

To my mind that X calls the wayward "snookums honeypot" and that X cuts toe nails in the bath and eats chocolate fudge sundaes as foreplay in pink ladies knickers whilst singing Ave Maria is snooping, if it is confirmed five times. Putting a tracker device in a car and remote cameras and checking every ten minutes is shivery 'sleeping with the enemy' especially if it goes on for years.

The purpose of Intel is action in my book, it is for the protection of self.

V

[Starsky309]

Good distinctions, V, although I'm still not sure how one can correctly categorize the stuff properly unless one is regularly collecting it and viewing it (or having a trusted third party do so).

The thing that bothers me the most is the attitude -- prevalent on here, I think -- of "well, it messes with my head so I'd rather not know."

Well, "do some work on your head then."

[Cadet]

Thread #9

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553206#Post2553206