This need not be the end.

[25yearsmlc]

Barry,

Unlike some, I don't think having people posting on other threads is useful IF the poster isn't in the right frame of mind and or is not familiar with the DB principles.

You'd be surprised how often an angry person comes on and vents or "transfers/projects" their situation onto others. It's incredibly Unhelpful. There is also a lot of misunderstanding or ignorance of DB tenets, so having those folks spread their misinformation is not helpful. I'm shocked at the number of posters who post here without even reading the books, let alone believing in them AND or who have not posted their own stories...it's sort of poor etiquette b/c they reveal nothing about themselves while telling others how to live.

And usually, not always but mostly, they are projecting their situations and biases onto others....counter to DB principles.

When I first posted here, I wanted to be declared "Right", and have h vilified for being the selfish MLCer that I believed him to be. I also continuously asked the useless unanswerable question of "WHY????"

I thank God that I got a wonderful DB coach and the people posting to ME at least, were DB believers. They almost totally changed my way of seeing things but geez, I took a LONG time to get there.

I spent/wasted the first year here, trying to figure out what was in h's mind/heart and truth be told, 1) HE probably did not know and

2) I should have focussed on ME/the kids/MY stuff, way more and faster. A lot faster.

Though I rarely got someone projecting onto me, I saw it a lot on other threads.

It's NOT a sign of you being self absorbed not to post, it's often a sign of humility. If you are in too much pain or have not absorbed or believe in the DB tenets, it's better that you Not post, imo.

But words of encouragement to others, just letting them know you care and they are in your thoughts and prayers, is always a kind thing to do.

Just my .02

[Barry]

Thanks for your input Train & 25years.

I also haven't been posting on other threads purely because I've had so much advice from people close to me and W that I felt it was getting too hard to separate the good from the bad. I took what I felt was the good stuff and left the rest. I believe in the DB principles as I'm seeing them in action in my sitch. Don't get me wrong, there's no change in my WAW's plan to remain S and D at some point at the moment, and there may never be. What I do know is that I've felt better recently because I've applied the principles to my life.

Had a nice evening with my D15 tonight, went for a meal and to the cinema. My S13 didn't make it, he was ill today when I saw him so he went to bed early. I'm going to see if he wants to go fishing at the weekend. He started recently with his friends and is interested in it. I've been sea fishing before (which was a great lads weekend) but fishing in general has never been my thing. I really want to try and spend more time with him though so it's a good opportunity for that.

Back to playing football tomorrow evening after a year out injured.
God help me!!

Barry.

[Barry]

I really enjoyed playing football again last night. I'm no Lionel Messi but I can hold my own against some of the younger lads.
It's really just a bit of fun and fitness and is a great GAL activity. I haven't seen the lads for a year (they all work in a different company and I only know them through football), and they were really glad that I'd gone back.

I was a bit worried about my knee due to a horrific cruciate ligament injury a year ago, but it stood up to the test and I'll be carrying on playing. Even though I go to the gym, running, cycling etc, it's different muscles being used playing football so my calves and quads are a bit sore today...no pain no gain though.

When I left, I went to see one of my friends who I've worked with for 20 years. He's a great guy and knows of my sitch. He's been D twice now and lives on his own. He's a doting father to two grown up girls and is still on speaking terms with one of his XW's. We chatted for hours and had a real laugh.

I don't want to say to much about it here, but I had some really good news a couple of days ago. Nothing to do with my sitch, and totally unexpected. I wish I could tell you all, it made me believe in karma so much and you'd all be astounded at my good fortune. Suffice to say, it lifted my spirits no end which is good enough for me.

Because of the above, I actually have the oppurtunity to go abroad if I want to. Even if only on a short holiday. My friend told me that's exactly what I should do, and he said he'd been thinking about it too. So we ended up deciding to go somewhere together and to just get away from it all for a week.

I'm considering holding off on this until either an OM appears in my sitch OR we get to the end of our initial 6 month separation and W still says she doesn't want to R. Either of these could knock me back in my emotional state (i think?, maybe it won't and I may feel different by then?), but if it does, then I could just get away from the area for a bit. Some people may look at it as running away from things, but to be honest, I don't realy care. What other people think is not my problem.

He also has to move house soon as his rented property is being sold and we got talking about that. He also said that if I was interested (and my sitch doesn't improve / we DON'T R) I could move in with him, either short or long term to get me out of my parents house. ** I don't mind being there as such but it's not the same as having your own place even if it's shared. It's not really helping me.

So in the space of around half an hour, I'd been invited on holiday and offered somwewhere to live. I jokingly asked the guy if he thought we were taking things a bit too fast...he hasn't tried to woo me at all, not even bought me a drink and we're moving in together lol

Anyway, the offer is there if I want it and we have such a laugh that I'm seriously considering the offer should things not work out with my W and my DBing efforts.

I start the Emotional Wellbeing course this evening. I'll let you all know what it's like and I'm quite intersted to see how it will fit in with how I feel right now. The DB/DR principles, plus those in NMMNG have really made some positive changes in me, so I don't want to jeapordise that too much at the moment.

It could well be that it just adds to my arsenal of weapons to help cope with this whole s****y situation.

Take care everyone.

Barry.

[Barry]

So W text me this evening asking if my open invite for some dinner out somewhere was still on as she'll come. I recieved this text whilst attending this new Emotional Wellbeing Course of mine...oh the irony.
We're now going out tomorrow night to a nice country pub that I know - we've never been there as a couple. I wanted somewhere new, our old life is gone.

I told her when I sent the invite that I don't want to talk about our sitch and that I had no expectations. Just two old friends, having some dinner together.

Guys, this is my time to pull all my s**t together. All of what I've read..both on here and in DB/DR/NMMNG, everything I've learned from this so far.
I feel ready to walk the talk. I did say as friends though, and I mean that.
IF we are ever to stand any chance, we need to at least be friends first.

Hey, for all I know? She could sit me down and tell me she's met someone but I don't think it is that. My gut says it's not anyway.

We haven't been together in the same room for more than 15 minutes since the 19th December and had so little contact that it may as well have been zero. In the grand scheme of things, it means nothing but it is a step for me nonetheless.

We have my D15's 16th Birthday on Monday, and we're going to see a musical (Wicked). My D has no idea. She's going to be so excited, she's wanted to see it for a year - since W and I went to see it with our friends. We were in the thick of piecing from separation 1 at the time so we didn't take her.

W said a while ago that she didn't want to go as she didn't want it to be awkward on D's birthday but I was firm in that she'll only be 16 once, we bought the tickets before all of this and I would like her to consider coming.

I think for W, tomorrow is really about seeing each other before Monday to ease things. I'll take that at this stage.

Barry.

[Joe46]

I hope your dinner goes well and hope you have good news to share with us.

[25yearsmlc]

Barry

a few posts back, you said you were going to post about your role in the marital crisis and the flaws you want to work on.

Can you do that sometime soon? It would help us, to help you.

As for the dinner, have your goal be to "eat dinner with w and NOT have R talk."

Remember to be upbeat, a fun optimistic KIND Man, not critical of anyone, no judging, etc.

IF SHE brings the R up, ask her if it's "okay to table that for now"

and get back to discussing what is safe, e.g. the kids or YOUR GAL or family, etc.

and remember your 180s...what are they?

[Barry]

Thanks Joe, I'll update tomorrow on how it goes.

25years, you're right, I never got around to posting that. It's been intentional over the last week that I haven't because I wanted to enjoy the positive emotions I've had for a while. I can't keep putting it off though.

I've been such a typical "Nice Guy" for all of my life. I never thought that it could be a bad thing.
Unfortunatley, I've never felt like much of a man to be honest. I've been immature in my actions, thoughts and communication but really only with my W? At work and around friends I'm confident, funny, and mature. My W is the other way around. She's mature around me but immature when around her friends. I've procrastinated all my life, not finished many things that I've started, and have never gone after things I wanted...just for me.

My W has said that I've been controlling and maybe I have to some extent. I think it's more that my W has always been the one to make the decisions, from what to have for dinner to where to go on holiday. My answer would always be the same - "I don't mind babe, whatever you want". I lost my individuality and just became half of a pair. SHE actually had all the control.

Since the start of the breakdown, I think I tried to make an effort to take some of this back but rather than trying to control myself and be an individual, I wanted to control HER and turn things around. I wanted her to feel like she needed me like I did her.
I've always put my W on a pedestal and she has been the No 1 thing in my life. As sad or as wrong as it sounds, she was put above my kids, my work, and certainly myself. She found this stifling - she told me that last year.

She's always handled the finances. To the point that sometimes, I wouldn't have a clue what money we had...even if I'd just been paid! Even though she is amazing at making sure everything gets paid on time and that we have enough left to live on, I always wanted to be more involved with it. It felt wrong that I wasn't (and since we separated, I've obviously had to do all this and I've felt empowered by it).

I've felt for such a long time that I loved her more than she loved me. I'm not a bad looking guy, but she has grown more beautiful over the years and looks better now than she ever has. I've felt that she was too good for me, and that in turn caused me to start having negative thoughts about her desire to be with me. As I look at it now, it was all in my head. My thoughts made me act differently towards my W, and she felt stifled by my neediness. And I was needy. I felt I needed her with me as much as possible because I felt weak. I felt I needed W to have me in her thoughts all the time like I did with her.

What I wanted was for us to feel the same about everything. It was a recipe for disaster as we've ALWAYS been very different. Our tastes in most things are different, and that was part of the attraction I think, that for all our differences and struggles, we still loved each other and would be together forever. The differences magnified over time though and it drove a wedge between us...I/we let it.

I don't want to get too graphic here but we've always been different in our sex life too. I always wanted more physical love (and yes, I would always settle for bad sex rather than none). She has never had a high sex drive and it became a mechanical, predictable part of our M. I also suffer from PE and it has sometimes been litteraly less than a minute before it's over. I used to focus on foreplay to try and make up for it. She always said it never bothered her but I could see the frustration in her sometimes. It made me feel terrible. All I wanted to do was please her...again, another Nice Guy trait.

She told me last year that she felt that on the weekends, I would try to get her drunk so that she would do things that she wasn't comfortable doing. Sometimes this was true. One of these was masturbating as part of our foreplay and I pushed it too often. She told me that she had never even done it alone (and wasn't comfortable with it) and that she didn't want to do it whilst I watched and joined in. I persisted though - not every time but a lot of them. This fantasy came from watching porn online and having unrealistic expectations. It wasn't a regular thing that I used to watch it. It was a way of release from tension without forcing myself onto W when she didn't want to though.

It was so different years ago. Although I work at the same place, I used to be a blue collar, working shifts, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. I worked hard to provide my family with whatever was needed and we fought our way out of a huge amount of debt. It took many years to get out of that debt, living off such a minimal amount. At the time, it was hard work but now I look back on it, it was our happiest time together. I felt respected by everyone because I worked so hard, both physically and the amount of hours.
We had 4 lovely children that we spent time with. I did as much as I could with them but my W felt like a single parent sometimes. It really felt like us against the world.

Around 6 or 7 years ago, I was offered a position working in the office. Better pay, better hours, better job. I'd worked shifts all my adult life and had missed so much of the children growing up. I decided to take the job to better myself and to be able to start living a "normal" life where we could spend more time together as a family and as a couple. It was great at first, but the transition for blue to white collar was a challenge for me. It's a fairly stressful job but I succeeded in making the change. I was always physically fit in my previous job (all manual labour) and I looked good. I did put some weight on (ok, more than some) when I started sitting down all day but my W wasn't particularly bothered about it. At the time, I wasn't either. Anyway, I lost all the weight (W lost a lot too) and it was probably our happiest times.

We started to talk more seriously about "The Plan" that we'd had for so many years in having "our time" once the kids were older. We did start to do some of the things - travel, spend more time together etc. Then we hit some financial issues and the money just wasn't there to do the things we wanted.

When W started working, it was great at first. This had always been part of "The Plan" and it gave her her independance as well as bringing in some much needed cash. I thought we were going to get back on with the plan once this started but she changed. She wanted to go out more yes...but not with me, with her friends. I didn't take the changes well and became withdrawn, miserable, manipulative, condescending and moody. This pushed W away even more but I kept on and on, never really thinking that she would just end things. The control I was trying to take back was ruining my M and I never even saw it happening.

I had what should have been my wake up call last year when she did just that, and tried to end it. It tipped me over the edge. I did everything wrong then. I wish I'd have found this forum, and the books back then, maybe I wouldn't be here now?

Maybe I would. My W has gone through significant changes herself in the last 18 months (typical MLC stuff). This, coupled with my peronality taking a huge hit for the worst has turned her completly off the idea of having a R or M with me.

The sad thing is that I honestly believe that if she felt like she could do all the things she wants to do in life, and I was more like my old self (confident, funny etc etc), she would want to stay M to me. We've had a good life, R and M up until 18 months ago (she agrees with this). She can't see that I'm changing for the better because we are having NC, but I really am. It's not for her although of course I want her to notice. I am adapting, changing, and growing into the man I always wanted to be and at this stage, I don't even know if I can do that if I'm around my W.
I DO want to R with her but I too want to walk this path now I've got my shoes on!!

I've rambled enough for the moment and the story is a little mixed up in the timeline. I've just typed as it came out.

I have some longer term 180's, but for tonight's dinner meet-up I need to..

Smile more.
Keep the coversation light with no R talk.
Really listen to her.
Be kind (instead of nice!).
Be assertive and confident.
Laugh with W.

I'll be happy with any improvement on the current sitch tbh. She hasn't wanted to spend ANY time with me at all for the last two and half months. I miss my wife, my lover, but most of all I miss my friend.

Barry.

[Sherman333]

I've been such a typical "Nice Guy" for all of my life. I never thought that it could be a bad thing.
Unfortunatley, I've never felt like much of a man to be honest. I've been immature in my actions, thoughts and communication but really only with my W? At work and around friends I'm confident, funny, and mature. My W is the other way around. She's mature around me but immature when around her friends. I've procrastinated all my life, not finished many things that I've started, and have never gone after things I wanted...just for me.

This sounds very similar to my situation. Main difference is that I was angry at my wife for things and wasn't about to do what she wanted until she threw even more of a fit.

I trying to knock off a lot of projects now, but am sooo far behind I don't know if I can make a dent before stuff really crashes beyond what it already has.

[Mozza]

A very insightful post, Barry. I'm sure you see how much you've grown in the last few weeks. NMMNG was also an eye opener for me and I'm glad that it's proven useful to you. I plan to re-read it eventually and I walk about the same path with my IC. Let's remain aware, both of us, that a sudden realization is different from lasting changes. We have the gift of time to make this happen.

Your sex life sounds very frustrating for both of you. It seems like you did settle for bad sex for a long time, and so did she. I consider that WAW and I had a good sex life, with sex 1-2 times a week and all parties involved physically satisfied. When WAW moved out, my libido went through the roof, all directed at her. I told my IC about it and he said, this week, that it's not that my libido had increased, but that it was repressed in my M. It has taken back its place. This is making me reassess my view of our sex life. I still think it was good, given 10 years together and two little kids, but I can see how it did not realize our full sexual potential. I used masturbation and porn when I felt it was too much work to ML. It's not even a question that WAW is having more, better sex now that she's with OM. Part of your panic at the idea that she'll meet OM is believing that she can get there the pleasure and satisfaction that you did not deliver. I know it's a horrible feeling for me, as a male, but also as Nice Guys so convinced that we need to please.

So if my WAW is having some kind of sexual reawakening through the S, I've been thinking about my own lately. Sure, I still want to ML with WAW above all and I'm still ready to forfeit all other women (even Cate Blanchett) for the rest of time with her. But that's not the situation I'm in. It's rather an opportunity to reassess my sexual needs freed of certain interdicts. When alone with myself, when I shut up that little voice that tells me what is right and wrong (my IC calls it a "guardian"), what is it that I really want? Was my R with my WAW delivering this? We all seem to accept that after a certain period of time, couples ML less often and perhaps with less imagination. Is that a given? Is it a sign that we need to move on? Are we with the wrong person? All provocative and uncomfortable thoughts, if you're like me.

An unexpected impact of these my recent reflection is that sex seems less of a big deal than I thought just six months ago. For me, sex was the ultimate bond, the thing for which you closed the door and built a relationship, not just physically but through genuine connection. I wonder now if I was doing this partly out of fear that I wouldn't find someone else, so I would bond strongly with this one willing mate. Also, I now realize that sex can be pure pleasure. It's ok to desire someone only physically. It happens a lot to the mutual satisfaction of many people. Years ago, I was attracted to this girl and after a few dates we ended up sleeping together. After a few more weeks, she asked me if it was serious or just for fun. I knew I didn't want to marry her, but the Nice thing to say was that it was serious (not to mention that it secured the supply...). I ended up moving in with her after 8 months of dating and it ended 7 months later, not surprisingly.

I write this long post because I feel that for both of us, and maybe more on these boards, sex is playing a much bigger role than we realize both in the S and our own lives. My therapy, with a Freudian IC, is making me think about the deep and unspoken place of sex in our life, including our career, friendships, body, relationship with our children, etc. He likens it to all other pleasures, like eating an apple, but the ultimate pleasure tagged with the ultimate interdicts. A mix of strong drive and strong braking. There's a lot of shame associated with our needs as Nice Guys, on top of society's expectations and taboos regarding sex.

[Barry]

Hi all,

Mozza, you make some excellent observations in your post. The ones that really resonate are;

1) Your sex life sounds very frustrating for both of you. It seems like you did settle for bad sex for a long time, and so did she. It was, and yes we both did.

2) Part of your panic at the idea that she'll meet OM is believing that she can get there the pleasure and satisfaction that you did not deliver. I've worried about this for some time.

3) Was my R with my WAW delivering what I want? We all seem to accept that after a certain period of time, couples ML less often and perhaps with less imagination. Is that a given? Is it a sign that we need to move on? Are we with the wrong person? I can't answer this one.

4) For me, sex was the ultimate bond, the thing for which you closed the door and built a relationship, not just physically but through genuine connection. I wonder now if I was doing this partly out of fear that I wouldn't find someone else, so I would bond strongly with this one willing mate? This.

So I had dinner last night with WAW as planned.
I'd slept well, bought some new clothes, got a haircut (not really required but always feels good I think), shaved, new cologne, all the usual things. I washed my new sporty looking car, mentally ticked off everything I've learnt about myself recently, what I'd read in the books and on this forum and set off, still mindful of having no expectations.
I looked and felt great without blowing my own trumpet. I felt confident. I've lost around 20 pounds and it shows. I also decided to take my W ring off for the first time in an effort to show no pressure. She knows how I feel about things.

WAW turned up and said she was feeling a bit sick. She had a headache and she did look as though she hadn't been sleeping well.
I could see straight away that this meeting was for a reason as eye contact was difficult for her.
She seemed guarded and nervous, whilst I was open, confident and talkative. It seemed like WAW's confidence was a lot lower than I'd seen since BD. Maybe the grass hasn't been so green? I stuck to safe subjects like the kids, extended family, friends, work etc and waited to see which way she may want to steer the conversation.

As we were eating our meal, she said she wanted to talk about something.
I sat there and thought "Here it is, the moment that I've been dreading"...OM has arrived.

But no, he's still just on his way.

WAW "I've been thinking about the house and I have a proposition for you."
Barry. "And what would that be WAW?
WAW.."If we sell our house, we'll both walk away with around £10k each. You can buy me out for £10k and have the house?
It's a good deal, and you get to move home. S18 and S13 will live with you and D15 with go with me. We've paid too much into it and have 11 years left on it for one of us not to benefit and you can afford to live there..I can't"
Barry.."Thank you for your offer WAW, can we discuss it another time?
WAW.."Yes, that's fine but it's a serious offer and I'm just putting it out there".

** It's at this point that you should know that the actual figure we'd walk away with each is significantly higher then £10k.
We both know it. If it was what I wanted, it is a good deal.

We chatted about other things for a while. It's whilst we're talking then that I see she is now more talkative and open so I'm thankful not to hear about an OM, at least for tonight. She was still trying to talk about R though so I asked her if she wanted us to take 5 minutes out to do that? She said yes, that she wanted to. I insisted it not be about the past, and she insisted that I start.

I told her that I really do understand how she feels about the M (over), and that I was changing my perspective (but not my mind) on the whole situation. I said without blame that it was the worst thing that had ever happened to me, but in some ways, I needed it to happen. I know what water is now. I told her that now I find myself here, that I was using it to make myself stronger.
I told her that I was more aware of my faults, and also of my strengths and that being away from her had been like going through cold turkey for me. I didn't need her any more...I wanted her in my life. She said she could hear that in me and believed it.
I said I missed my oldest friend and confidant and that it was good to see her. I said that I thought that we are two good people who have a bad R but no one did this to us, we let it, and even made it happen. I said I know I can't control her at all, I never meant to in our M and that I was sorry. I told her it was me trying to gain back some sense of power when I felt I had none.
I said that I was concentrating on Barry and his kids right now.

She said that she hasn't changed her mind at all, and that she'd really been thinking about it a lot. She doesn't see anything changing and that she was sorry. She said she hadn't met anyone and had no plans to. She started to put herself down both physically and mentally and asked who on earth would want her anyway? I asked her to continue rather than saying "ME! ME!.
She doesn't know what she wants but knows what she doesn't want, and that's this M or R any more.
She feels that everyone is reporting back to me about anything she does (which isn't true, no one does), that it was stressing her out and that she still feels trapped. She said she maybe made a mistake in agreeing to move home and she should have got her own place. She wanted me to seriously think about the £10k buy out offer, I didn't have to answer now, just think about it.

We agreed to leave the R talk there and it was within our 5 minute window. We chatted about other things, tried to lighten the conversation and even managed a couple of laughs. I was faking it at this stage...I think we both were. WAW's offer had affected me. Even though I'd gone with no expectations, I hadn't expected that. She was seeing a different Barry and wasn't expecting that either so I think we both went home with more to think about than we bargained for.

I asked if she'd had a good evening, and she said yes. I said that although I was all too aware of her feelings, I'd like to do it again but that there was to be NO R talk if we did. I said that I missed my oldest friend and confidant, and that although I was a lot better now, I was still unhappy with the situation. She said that she could see a positive change in me and with a really heartfelt tone and look, told me that she was glad I was feeling better. That she'd been worried about me and cared about me still. We arranged our plans for D15's birthday on Monday and left. As WAW was getting into her car, she once more asked me to think about her offer, and I said I would, if she would think about not doing it at all. She said she had already.

I came "home", went to my room, shut the door and cried for the first time in two weeks.

I was upset that WAW would take £10k and call it quits. After 22 years together and everything we've been through, to put a nominal monetary value on what that was worth to her was hard to take. I'd give her a million pounds to stay.
I know I shouldn't believe everything she says and that she will talk in absolutes. She does seem to have made up her mind though. I can see that she regrets not getting her own place but I don't feel sorry for her.
I was more thinking "Ahh, poor WAW, is everything not quite as you thought it would be when you set out on this path".
What a shame...but tough luck. It's not the same for me either now.

The offer is financially viable. I could buy her out by borrowing the money. I would make sure it was all set up legally in a way that if/when we D, she would have no claim on the house. However, I would have a real problem living in the family home even if I completely gutted it and changed the décor. I would be living in a house of ghosts. The only real immediate benefit would be that I would get to live with my S18 and S13, and I would have my own space again. Those are important benefits to me so I need to consider it. Another option would be for me to rent it out and we could move somewhere else. I have a lot to think about.

The way she's talking, no amount of time is going to change her mind but I'll stay the course and continue in my DB'ing efforts until I don't want to any more. DBing is meant to save the person first (which it has already) and sometimes it can save a M too, but not always.

I choose to stand for my myself first, then my kids, then my M. In that order.
My W ring is now back on my finger, it feels wrong not to have it on.

I text'd WAW this morning to say thank you for coming and I hope she was feeling better. I would think about her offer but wasn't ready to decide on it yet. I would see her on Monday.

Barry.