Wife during deployment EA/PA ongoing #4

[Train]

More later, but it is not "bad etiquette" to post emails. But, yes, remove names or any other identifying information.

[Complex]

Simple but brilliant analogy regarding the psych of a cheater reasoning himself out of the responsibilty by pointing out the flaws in us that they knew long before, but didn't care about them as long as they were in love with us...

Imagine you go buy a car. It has a visible dent. You're like, I want this car, it's awesome. The dealers says, yes it is but it has a big dent right there, other than that it works just fine. You really want it with this dent?
Oh yes, I don't care. I love this car. I don't care about the dent. Ok sign here...
50.000 miles later: oh my god, this car has a dent, wtf. I'll bring it back, this is ridiculous. You go back and want to return it bc of the dent.
Car dealer be like....???????!?!?!?!?!? Wtf is wrong with you? It's been 50k miles, I told you it has a dent when you bought it, it's still the same one...you even signed it....

Little out of context but it's an analogy that really simplifies the emotions in a funny way.

[RysinMn]

I have a hard time communicating with you lately, so I am going to attempt to tell you how I feel about our situation right now. I remember us both agreeing that no matter what happened with us we did not want to be malicious or mean to each other. I believe I have tried to stick by that and have not done anything to make your life any more difficult right now. I wanted you to stay in the house with the babies (dogs). I wanted you to have company and do whatever you need to do right now. You are free to go where you want with whoever you want at any time. You can have anyone over to the house at any time and do as you please. All I am asking for is the same courtesy. You think that I am free to do what I want but I am not. You keep saying that I can go to acro or gym or whatever I want but I cant. I cant because I refuse to do anything mean-spirited to anyone. I am not that kind of person. You have put me in a difficult situation where it is very hard to enjoy anything in my life. This is why I feel like you and the military are controlling my life. You say you know me so well. You should know that I cannot handle the thought of not being in control of my own life. It makes me feel desperate, like I need to do whatever I can to get control over my life again. I am at a breaking point, Rysinman. This is why I need you to make a decision. I cant live like this. It is literally driving me crazy to feel like I am not in control of my own life. I do not want to make any rash decisions or make any major decisions too soon, but I feel so desperate that it feels like my only option. I want to have the time to try and talk with you when we both calm down. But I cant calm down until I know what your decision is with the no contact order. I know that you have it in your mind your own reason why you think I am asking you for a decision, but the truth is what I have explained above. I need to feel in control of my life and I am at a breaking point. Please tell me what you have decided to do.

This is the email that i received today and i am kinda at a loss. Some of it comes across as sincere but then i know that she has been trying to get me to remove this NC on OM, and she has tried many different approaches from threatening D to trying to insult me to make me angry, to saying in order to work on our marriage i need to let her get clarity and she can only do this with the NC gone. So it comes across as manipulative to me. what do you all think.

[Complex]

I see what you are saying. Some part of it does sound sincere. It's very similar to what my W is doing and all the other WAW.s. They DO tell you the truth about how they feel like but leave details and other truths (eg. feelings for OP), and due to the lacking trust you mistrust them and they get mad at you and validate that the separation is necessary. We then give them all the validation they need/wanted.
In this case you have to take her serious tho I think. Respect what she is saying. It's important. It sounds like she feels humongously pressured from all sides. Which drives her away, far away. It also sounds like she's blaming you a lot...the email is like YOU YOU YOU.
Then she seems to ask you about the NC order but somewhat sneaky between the lines. It sounds like she is putting the pressure back on you now by forcing a decision...warning you with "I'm at a breaking point". She doesn't specify what she means by that. D? Her attempt to blackmail you like this is only between the lines.
I'm not experienced enough to figure out a response to that. But I tell you one thing: DON'T let it get to you too much. Don't overthink. It's a lot of standard script. She is testing you. You have to show her you take her serious, you gotta be calm and reasonable and not piss her off. Be a good listener when you meet with her. You have to set her free, but it can NOT be dependent on the NC order.
You just have to have the right mindset right now. Simplified: Love her (don't tell her), let her go, keep the boundaries you set, don't give in, stay strong.

[RysinMn]

that is how i have been approached since finding out about the EA/PA and how i reacted. instead of stepping back and letting her just do what she wanted to find her "clarity". i reacted the only way i knew how at the time. snooping, arguing all the script things the betrayed spouse does. her all the while saying these things im doing ar selfish and she just needs space and time to think. and then when i sent the info the Air force and they pressed the NC on OM then everything was without a doubt my fault, "i was doing everything for myself and being selfish." she had even gone so far as to say that i am happy to see where she is at and that she is depressed and unhappy. I dont understand how someone can change so fast and also how they continue not to see they are the ones that are selfish. but anyhow i agree complex i read all those subtle hints about the NC. and then how she went to so far as to say, I can come and go and do what i want with who i want and that she lets me. and that she just wants the same thing....! i almost spit up my water, all i could see as her trying to justify what she wants. kinda like i have fired you as my hubby, i dont care what you do or who you do it with, SO you should not care what i am doing or who i am doing it with. that is how i inferred that statement. gonna let this one sit for a little but i do feel like i have to at least respond sooner or later, with something simple short and to the point!

[25yearsmlc]

Rys,

Couple things...FTR this is Not about you being "right", okay? So the defensiveness I'm picking up a Little of, is not needed.

I feel bad for you and as a veteran, I REALLY do empathize with your situation. I think cheating on deployed soldiers is like cheating on pregnant wives; which is to say it's damn hard to deal with.

But, here you are. So, what to do now & "from this day forward"??

I asked you if you have read the DB books and you have not answered. It's essential that you read the books and in my opinion it's essential that you actually USE the advice in them.


Some or all of the folks posting to you, thus far, TO MY KNOWLEDGE are not advocating a specific DB plan.

I suggest you choose an approach and give it a real shot BEFORE mixing them all up b/c I can't tell where you are coming up with "Plan A" or "B" or whatever...It's not DB planning...

They seem like set ups for failure to me. Or tests - or both.

I'm a big fan of Div Busting b/c I feel my m would have ended if it were not for this approach. So I am biased.

But then, THIS SITE is a Db site...not Dobson's, not "tough love" etc.

What do YOU Want, now? Do you want a restored marriage, or for her to just feel really bad and remorseful, but out of your life?

(B/c that's the feeling I'm getting from your behavior and words, but I'm not sure)

Do you get my point?

25yearsmlc,
There is a lot less stress that is true, as far as the discussion about her things in the house i was just curious how to handle everything i was not implying that i wanted to throw them out maybe i was not clear i apologize for that.

No need to apologize.
Here's the bottom line,

Act in accordance with your goals (whatever they are& figure that out asap)

And NOT In accordance w/how you Feel.

Make sense?


She chose OM and i am left in the house.


Oh, I misunderstood. I thought she was still trying to decide.

Regardless, if you want to give her the space to figure this out, so be it. BACK OFF and keep on GAL and doing your 180s (which I am still not clear on).

BUT if you do NOT want to give her that space or if you know you cannot ever even conceive of forgiving her, then see the JAG and be done with this.

The worst choice, atm and in my opinion, is to stay married AND stay miserable.

But forgiveness is Not something I grew up with. So for me, it was a learned skill.

How do you feel about forgiveness, at least as a concept?


she still comes and goes as she wants with our dogs staying with me.

beware of too much "mind reading"^^ here. "Comes and goes as she wants" is not true or accurate, as your own words below & other posts demonstrate.

Second, I'm a dog lover and it would bother me a lot to not see any of them, or to have to check with you to do that (and arrange to be there when you are not, b/c I'm NOT "free to come & go as I want"...

and besides, you are with all her worldly possessions, which means she's got to trust you not to do irate angry things with them...


though we do not have many interactions, for a little while things seemed to be getting better as far as just being cordial with one another.


If you can, try to see the interactions you do have, however infrequent or short lived, as opportunities for her to see you in your best light.

(I'd advise that no matter what else you choose to do, b/c it simply reflects well on you and increases the chances of her second guessing herself, which is usually a goal - even if it is totally over).

Have you ever read the "Five Love Languages", by Chapman? It's a good book (I mean, for all couples, really), but if you know what your wife's love languages is (quality time??)

then you could "speak" in that language more...

IF you want to save the marriage (OR if you are not sure you don't,)
it might be a good idea to figure that love language stuff out.
See those interactions as chances for her to see you in a new way.

By seeing those moments as opportunities for you to demonstrate change,
you won't dread them so much.

In my situation, & with the aid of my Godsent DB coach, MY first goal was to be able to talk on the phone with my h and NOT escalate things into a fight.

That was NOT easy and anger was a constant companion of mine for a long time. I also obsessed about what my h was thinking/doing/planning/feeling, for almost a year of my life that I"ll never get back...

After awhile, that first goal became "have a 15 min conflict free talk" and then it grew from there.

So, Getting BACK to Div Busting basics,

do you have any short term goals vis a vis your w?

Or are you solely in Damage control mode now?

.


since the seperation i have taken up cooking, learning the guitar, finished completing my Advanced Open Water Cert. i'm going to concerts, camping and weightlifting.

Wow, I'm impressed! I really am. Good for you. This is HUGE!


I stopped helping her fix the vehicle or her scooter, i am taking steps to separate our finances and cell phones.


I assume this^^ is done to protect yourself? And from what? B/C if it is to punish her, then I'd remind you to act in accordance with your goals and NOT your emotions...(which is actually a really smart way to live life anyway.)

So ASK yourself when you are in a dilemma, what your goal is AND whether your proposed act or words will get you closer to the goal(s).

Below, I am feeling some defensiveness in your response. Think about it and see if the highlighted parts might be the most truthful...



When W asked me not to Deploy This was not a Gloss over we talked about it daily for about a month. Where i was before the deployment and where i needed to be could only be achieved through deployment points. She did beg me not to go at first then we started looking at the positives and we decided together though now hind sight 20/20 she just agreed to agree. i see that now and it breaks my heart that i could not see that then.

If she would have said anything like i dont think we will make it through this deployment or i'm not strong enough to be here that long without you. i NEVER I REPEAT NEVER WOULD HAVE gone! I believed we were rock solid. Prior my Deployment we had what i thought and everyone else thought was the perfect marriage. She was my best friend, camping buddy, workout partner, everything!


Well...few women would openly admit (even to themselves) that they are "not strong enough" to make it thru a deployment...But in retrospect that is what I suspect she felt...

but then again, given what you say your career needs were, deep down, wouldn't you have resented it - if she had?

(NOTE - That would not make you a jerk. If she married you while you were active duty, it should not have come as a shock to her that you might have to go somewhere "inconvenient")

Also, going forward, is the military going to be your career?


I realized as soon as i got on that plane to fly over the pond, that i should never have sought the deployment. But i was stuck.


WHY did you so quickly regret the deployment? Were there rumblings or musings or just a feeling you had? Were you are attentive as you could be while deployed, given the constraints of that?

I only ask b/c When I was deployed, I was busier than I had ever been in my life, by far. It was like studying for the bar exam all the time but in a horrible physical environment and having the free floating angst of missiles overhed to boot. H said for him, it was a 'feast or famine" type of thing b/c he's an MD and there'd be nothing much to do OR a ton of patients to see all of a sudden...

Point is, I could not bear to talk to home often or I'd end up wanting to cry afterwards (every single time, I cried and then had to "get it together" for work).

It actually seemed easier to me to block it out and hope for the time to go by faster...so in some ways I could have been much better. Just admitting it.



I did not want to air her laundry out there, but we were reading a book and trying to follow the plan that was laid out, and i was going to follow it to the T because i didnt know what else to do.


Hey, I don't want to belabor the point but this^^^ ALL SOUNDS like a ton of controlling stuff on your end. "The Plan that was laid out" is such a military thing to say and then force upon her, and then...well...

enough said, I hope/think.


Her idea was more fluid

of course it was more fluid, b/c it was about HER choices and HER behavior...not yours.

is this obvious to you now, or do I need to clarify what I mean? In other words, I don't want to belabor this b/c maybe I'm beating a dead horse. Am I?
--

Plan B was to be completed if plan a could not work. Plan B was for the betrayed spouse to leave and cut all ties with the wayward spouse.

Wait...

So YOU were supposed to end it? What? I mean, this is SO NOT a Div Busting plan, I can barely address it. In fact, I'll just repeat my earlier advice to

make a choice about AN approach to take towards your marital crisis.

I'm a fan of THIS SITE'S APPROACH - but you are not following it for the most crucial parts and so, I'm sort of at a loss as to what to advise.

Can you hire a DB coach? I found mine invaluable. I did a lot of things to help my m.

But if I were in that boat again AND If I could only do ONE thing - it'd be to hire that same DB coach again and to follow her sage advice.

It was hard as heck at times (as in "Mother Teresa hard") but dang, she sure steered me right. And it was NOT always what I wanted to do or what I heard from some of my friends/family.

At one point, I had a dear friend urge me to, in effect, kick my h when he confessed a profound remorse to me. I shook my head at her.

But in that moment, I realized also, that it was Div Busting advice I'd gotten from my coach and NOT the justified rage I felt before, that had gotten me to a good place with my h.




ATM the Airforce has issued a NC on OM stemming from the emails and texts i submitted to the Airforce IG. W did not take this very well, actually she called it the ultimate betrayal.

I know.

I read that and don't see why you are surprised by it. Are you not seeing any problems with it? B/C if that is the case, I'd have to ask you one question: what was the goal of your behavior?

See, it was to harm OM's career (and yes, I know you've gotten support for that) and to stop your wife's behavior. But neither goal was achieved. Your w says and you seem to agree, that you are in a worse position based on how you two interact. It surely did not help.

And btw, The NC order is for safety reasons and it came from the command, not you. I'm ONLY saying that to remind you to let go of what You do not control.


And finally, Your wife clearly feels you aired a private matter, which is true.


and said plan be could not be completed if the NC stayed in place on OM. she has really gotten mean and angry on this subject. very hateful and demanding. i have thought about lifting the NC and just telling her this is not working for me anymore either.

Back to the "control" aspects of this.... Do you see how some of ^^^ this reads?


You need do nothing about the NC order to move on with your life. You can also move on without giving up.

It's pretty important that you grasp this.


I do not want a D but i realize that i now have to let her go. The reason i feel sorry for her is that even though she is wayward, it is obvious she is not doing ok, and she is struggling internally, and hurting I still love her and cant just turn that part off. But i know there is nothing that i can do to fix it. She has to find her way out of this with or without me in her life.

At this moment W does not want to work on M actually resorted to threatening me with D this past saturday if i didnt lift NC on OM, So I am struggling with fact that if i dont lift NC she is going to D me, and i would have forced her hand.

But then if i do lift the NC i am not staying true to myself and what i stand for. But can i truly let her go and maintain the NC on OM at the same time?


Letting her go is NOT the same as giving up. It means to let go of the illusion of control that you are clinging to.

Focus on becoming a man only a fool would leave.

As for the regulations you were posting and explaining to me, there is no need for that. I'm very familiar with the law in the military but I was simply trying to remind you of the illusion you are busying yourself with, (that you can control her or OM much or for long)

in lieu of working on your life and your 180s.

So, can you mention some of those 180s now?
-


If W was here talking about the sitch she would say that i really hurt us by how i handled the entire sitch from the begining. She believes that i have done everything in the attempt to hurt her and manipulate her into getting what i want. Those words are straight from her mouth.

This^^ is semi script but in your case it's also mostly true. I'd really like to get back to DB basics however...I think this program works if you work the program.

Your wife's issues with you PRIOR to the deployment and affair are clearly what the focus would be on if you were to want to work on yourself, (and your behavior since.)

NOT her behavior...she's not here working on things or trying to save the m.

You are.


She would say that if i would have stepped back not pursued, snooped, and just let her have her space to think things might have been better. Again hind sight 20/20 i would have reacted far differently than what i did.

The tough love or whatever you want to call it, did not work.

Would it be fair to say "more of the same will yield you more of the same"?



We are 6 months into this affair. She believes she loves him and our marriage is dead. she says she loves me but too much bad has happened to fix it. I do not believe that but i cannot change her mind. i can only better myself and hope that one day she see's the truth.

we cannot say for sure what would help or save your m. Mostly, we can tell you what will HARM it and anything done in anger or in attempts to control your spouse will usually do harm.

I will try to quote Starsky here, about exposure (which is NOT something I support) but even he says "it's never to be done in anger" and both of us are in alignment with not lying FOR our spouses to have their affair.

But to me that is a far cry from publicizing anything between them or trying to harm someone's career b/c of it.

Keep in mind when you are acting in anger, that you be less likely to prevail, ultimately.

Imo, which is hardly fool proof, your best shot at getting her to second guess things is by adopting a "You are free to do/love as you please and I wish you well" attitude.

With a resigned sad FOR HER air about you. Not b/c you are losing out so much as that SHE is. It's alright to pity her!

All I can say for sure in MY situation is that I came to a point where I truly believed that my h was losing a lot more than I was, if we divorced. And that belief tends to radiate from within and you just get a sense of confident peace within...

and that is attractive.

The other thing to realize is that a WAS is always at a disadvantage down the road (I mean, absent a big problem within the m)

She'll have 2nd thoughts every time a problem arises in the new R.

Or a song or positive memory of the Marriage comes up (and in time the positives will resurface)
and when she is stuck recalling a close moment she comes to miss...

OR when a financial problem arises that might not have arisen if she'd stayed with you...

OR when a trait you had in common, is revealed as a difference between her and the OM,

OR the things you know about her that make her laugh, or which she so loves

are NOT known by him, she will miss you or rethink her choice;

and b/c familiarity is NOT a bad thing, (b/c it brings comfort and especially so in times of crisis,)

She will think of you; and rethink her choice; and

every time a family member of hers

or close friend of YOURS sees her with OM instead of you, she will wonder.

Every holiday that she once spent with you; she will have second thoughts.


Every time that special place you two shared comes up, she will wonder...

she will look over her shoulder a lot in the coming months and next few years....

and in those moments, those times, you want to be & look your best, so she reaches out to you...FOR Lots of reasons.


But we, the LBS'ers do not have those concerns.

We are just making the best of a bad situation. Our regrets are usually a lot fewer so in truth, I'd rather be in our shoes than the WAS.



I do understand that i have blame in this for not acknowledgeing the most important needs of my W, my partner and best friend. Instead i worried about future financial stability. One lesson i wish i would have never had to learn.

If you can elaborate on this^^, we could perhaps offer some advice. I'm just not clear on what you mean, specifically, that you wish you had done better.

IF the time comes when you can discuss ^^ those things with your w,

admit fault where it fits IF you want her to know that you "Get it".

A line I like to use if/when that comes up is :

"W, I'm sorry about 'X" b/c I know it hurt you. If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

Then drop it. That^^ shows that you do care and you are taking some responsibility for things AND that you are changing.

And it does not escalate things or make you into a doormat.

So why not read the DB book, and see about a DB coach, and or list some short term goals, some 180s and see where to go from there?

Good luck, soldier on and hang in there!

[Starsky309]

This is the email that i received today and i am kinda at a loss. Some of it comes across as sincere but then i know that she has been trying to get me to remove this NC on OM, and she has tried many different approaches from threatening D to trying to insult me to make me angry, to saying in order to work on our marriage i need to let her get clarity and she can only do this with the NC gone. So it comes across as manipulative to me. what do you all think.

I agree. And I think I told you to expect this.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

I have a hard time communicating with you lately, so I am going to attempt to tell you how I feel about our situation right now. I remember us both agreeing that no matter what happened with us we did not want to be malicious or mean to each other. I believe I have tried to stick by that and have not done anything to make your life any more difficult right now. I wanted you to stay in the house with the babies (dogs). I wanted you to have company and do whatever you need to do right now. You are free to go where you want with whoever you want at any time. You can have anyone over to the house at any time and do as you please. All I am asking for is the same courtesy. You think that I am free to do what I want but I am not. You keep saying that I can go to acro or gym or whatever I want but I cant. I cant because I refuse to do anything mean-spirited to anyone. I am not that kind of person. You have put me in a difficult situation where it is very hard to enjoy anything in my life. This is why I feel like you and the military are controlling my life. You say you know me so well. You should know that I cannot handle the thought of not being in control of my own life. It makes me feel desperate, like I need to do whatever I can to get control over my life again. I am at a breaking point, Rysinman. This is why I need you to make a decision. I cant live like this. It is literally driving me crazy to feel like I am not in control of my own life. I do not want to make any rash decisions or make any major decisions too soon, but I feel so desperate that it feels like my only option. I want to have the time to try and talk with you when we both calm down. But I cant calm down until I know what your decision is with the no contact order. I know that you have it in your mind your own reason why you think I am asking you for a decision, but the truth is what I have explained above. I need to feel in control of my life and I am at a breaking point. Please tell me what you have decided to do.

This is the email that i received today and i am kinda at a loss. Some of it comes across as sincere but then i know that she has been trying to get me to remove this NC on OM, and she has tried many different approaches from threatening D to trying to insult me to make me angry, to saying in order to work on our marriage i need to let her get clarity and she can only do this with the NC gone. So it comes across as manipulative to me. what do you all think.

I would respond (but not right away) with:

"I understand that you feel I'm doing this to be 'mean,' but I am not. Everything I have done, I have done to try and fight for our marriage. You (and OM) are both free to do whatever you want, you're a grown woman and I have no desire to control you. You both just need to understand that there are natural consequences for your choices, as you're beginning to learn. I will neither do or un-do anything further, as frankly I've already wasted too much of my valuable life on this and I realize now that I deserve better.

Rys"

This would be consistent with MWD's "After the Last Resort Technique," and I think it's appropriate for the stage you're in and considering what you've tried so far.


Starsky

[Train]

"I understand that you feel I'm doing this to be 'mean,' but I am not. Everything I have done, I have done to try and fight for our marriage. You (and OM) are both free to do whatever you want, you're a grown woman and I have no desire to control you. You both just need to understand that there are natural consequences for your choices, as you're beginning to learn. I will neither do or un-do anything further, as frankly I've already wasted too much of my valuable life on this and I realize now that I deserve better.

Rys"

I like that. But Rys, you have to be really, really, really sure that you are genuine and authentic about this and *fully prepared* for her to choose OM. The way I look at it - and did, even in my sitch - is that she already has.

At the end, you're left with two possibilities:

1. Your W comes back to you and understands why you fought as hard as you did for her and respects you for it. (And I'm pretty sure you know what I mean by "fight.")

2. Your W is already gone and won't come back, and you are left with respect for yourself.

I'll tell you from where I sit, there's nothing attractive about a man who does, well, NOTHING. Most women I know still want a hero. I consider myself a strong woman, but if I would ever - God forbid - cheat on my H and leave him, I just can't imagine I would ever be re-attracted to him if he appeared to simply move on with his life without setting firm boundaries to show that he loves me and respects HIMSELF and our M vows. I'd probably spew and lash out and make threats in an effort to get my way (which, frankly, is exactly what I think your W's email is). But deep in my gut, I think I'd grow respect for my H. And I *know* I wouldn't LOSE respect for him. But maybe that's just me and my personality. BUT, even though I typically wouldn't think that writing an email to your W is a good idea, she wrote first, and I think Starsky's response covers perfectly that you are NOT doing this to control her; you're doing it, instead, because you LOVE her and honor your M. I think it's very important, in this case, that you tell her that.

Maybe she won't believe you. If she's anything like my H, it'll probably send her off the deep-end a little at first. But just as you can't control her actions, you also can't control her REactions.

[Starsky309]

Bingo.