I thought everything was okay....(Part 4)

[MCS]

But I think this emphasizes, we can only do what we can, in the end, its not up to us.

This is what its all about. I've struggled mightily on this as you probably have read. My IC has worked with me over the last couple months with this and I think she knows me enough now to give me that departing 'itch' that I think about each week. One time she told me "MCS are you at the point that you've realized that there is nothing more you can do?" I took this as 'defeat' for that week. Well, the next week she said to me something like; "if you can't control the situation and you are a religious person, do you have faith in the outcome?"

Well, that one sealed it for me. This finally letting go manifested itself as anger and frustration (it was suppressed so I wouldn't 'lose control') that it seemed like this all was one sided.

To be honest with you, I think it was more timing than anything. Funny thing my L said when I first talked to her.

"MCS, I don't know why; but the guilt of the WAS lasts almost 5 months to the day. If you are looking at getting something, that's the clock that you are working against."

Well, I think this is partially true. IDK, but I think my W is finally starting to get over some of the guilt in what has happened. This could be that she's over it and is just as committed to going this path, but I see her as back to 'normal' or that she realizes that I'm not using the 'truth' to manipulate her to get what I wanted.

I'm a little on the fence that I had to resort to being so stern and not caring of how she reacted when I walked out of counseling the other week, but good or bad; I needed to do something to try and make this situation better for the little ones. I had relinquished control of trying to repair our M, but knew that I needed to put the kids out in front of what I was doing.

It's weird, in one case I'm happy that W seems to be approaching her normal self, but on the other, I've thought that the 'wall' she built up around herself was masking the confusion she had in our R. If she's back to normal and still wants a D, well that stinks......I guess I need to leave it up to faith....

[MCS]

So MCS, Ive been following your sitch for a while, even more interested since we had that one convo about Christian Rock remember?

So into 3/4 of a bottle of wine left over from the party yesterday...so sorry for the rambling (well, more than usual)

Yep, I didn't forget that conversation. Its funny, because just like you I've always been religious, but just because it was 'there' and felt 'right.' My religion has always ebbed and flowed throughout my life. I guess its one of those things that you need something 'life changing' to get you back in touch. I've always been appreciative of what I've been provided, I (and more importantly 'we') have worked hard but things always seemed to fall into place. Once this all happened and as bad as it seemed, I could tell deep down I was still so very thankful for what I have. It's balanced out the lows over the last few months.

So, I was talking to my Mom yesterday on the phone while she was in the car. Well, Broken Together came on the radio right as I called. I'm starting to believe there's no such thing as coincidences

Anyway, I was just thinking today as I look back, how so very lucky I (still) am. I see so many people in these forums with such monumental challenges to overcome, that its humbling to think that I'm giving so much effort to my own sitch.

I haven't listened to KLove, I'm a Sirus or Spotify guy, I've found that Christian Rock is my go to station right now. about 1 in 5 songs makes me reflect on my life right now. The one today was 'Burn Bright' by Natalie Grant. I looked it up and it was written for her nephew who was battling drug addiction, but the theme seemed so familiar to the situation that my wife is in right now.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I know I have an 'out' from what the Book says; but how I see it there's also a lot in there about unconditional love, and well....that 'out' would be a condition to love. I've never thought too much about that Psalm (I think) about Love and all of the attributes. Patient, kind, obedient, rejoices in the truth... Look at those and you have DB almost to a tee.

Actually, the phrase "unconditional love" does not appear even once in the bible. Both "eternal life" and "salvation" are conditional ~~~ "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16) also ""If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9).

Loving "unconditionally" isn't practical nor healthy in marriage. Why should either of you be kind or do anything for one another if the other has to love you unconditionally regardless. If you end up divorced, do you intend to keep loving her unconditionally and supporting her financially and emotionally?? Probably not.

I understand what you are thinking and I went there a bit too long ago even going so far as to pray for OM. But I'm more fond of your Corinthians sentence where you say love is .....obedient and rejoices in the truth. Ultimately your love for your wife is conditional on her obedience to God and her vows to you. Also, your love will eventually rejoice in the truth. She might not like much "truth" but when you fight for your wife and prevail she'll remember that you stood for truth and didn't enable her lies.

As far as my W and the Pastor, I'm not sure what he is going to do. Like I said, I was worried for a while that he would approach her. She spent the first couple months after BD shutting out so many people in her life, but she was still going to church and I didn't want to do anything to jeopardize that. Since I detached, I realized that as long as I'm true to myself and to Him, that I can't be worried about how she's going to react to things I do that are right and good. That's one more piece of control that I'm letting go.

He didn't know actually what was really going on before yesterday other than she left suddenly, I didn't know why and we were still separated. He did say that last time he saw her, he said to her that everyone loves her and they are there for her. He also said someone from the Church was going to try to reach out to talk with her.

They should be doing more than "having a talk with her". They should be privately confronting her and telling her to stop. To end her affair immediately and commit to rebuilding her marriage and that if she won't they will need to take this to a larger group of friends and spiritual leaders who will further and again repeat the request that she end her affair and recommit to her marriage. If she refuses again, the entire congregation should be made aware. Most likely your wife will stop going to church before that happens which is better than everyone just "loving her" while she's covered in sin. Recall - true love rejoices in truth.

Lastly, have you seen the movie 'Fireproof?' If not, its pretty good. Not the best DBing (or acting) in there sometimes, but there's one thing that I thought when I read your post. The guy is trying to convince his W of his love for her and the harder he pushes the more she pushes away and he wants to 'give up' on her.

They make the connection that in life, even when we know that we have the right path in front of us, we often push away. However, Jesus doesn't give up on us nor 'force' us to believe in his salvation. We have to make the conscious choice to follow Him. Pastor's have the same struggle. I know he's looking out for her and knows the right path, but he needs to be delicate that she doesn't push herself farther away.

I've seen the movie with my wife well into recovery. Be careful undertaking any such thing while your wife is married UNLESS you can completely detach from having an expectations. Until your wife is in "no contact' with OM and the affair is over...there is NO PROGRESS to be made. You'll have good days and bad days with her but it's not progress until she kicks OM to the curb (or he kicks her to curb which happens more often than the other way). These type movies imply a formula for turning your spouse around by unilaterally taking these specific actions. It may help you in recovery but NOT while she's getting her needs met by another man and it'll just lead to more despair and loss of love in your heart.

[MCS]

Georgia,

Thanks of for joining in here, this topic is something that I've wanted to discuss, but frankly I haven't with any of my friends to the depth I'd like. Like I said, the sitch has gotten me to look at and consider a lot of these things in the bible that I took for granted before.

So for the 'unconditional' part. I guess I never knew it didn't show up in there. However, my feeling is the love that Jesus has over us is unconditional. He can be upset, angry, disappointed. We can make all of the wrong choices in life and he still loves us, he's just waiting for us to find our way. I see my current sitch in my M the same way. I understand how she got where she is, although I don't agree with her decisions. When I confronted on OM, I gave her a huge 'pass' on what had happened and just asked that we could work on our M. When she explained to me the predicament she was in, I even explained exactly what she needed to do to get out of it. However, she wasn't ready and got scared; I think.

Also, when we get married; I feel we do have the commitment to love unconditionally, not to an extreme but to the point that we are joined as one and just as we struggle with our own personal path and make mistakes, sometimes in M there's mistakes. I'm not trying to defend her, but I say to most people when they learn about my sitch. "My W is a good person, making bad decisions right now"

So as far as the role of the congregation. I've read the passage about sin and starting by addressing it in private then going to the church as a whole. I know that you're right she would probably stop going, but we are still indebted to helping folks even though they are not ready to accept it. I guess, if the only people going to church are one's that are not currently carrying sin that they continue to sin over and over again; there wouldn't be too many people there.

For my W, I think I can tell she's struggling with avoiding her morals/faith in church. The kids tell me that mom comes and gets them out of Sunday School so they "eat bread and drink grape juice." Having sat there just myself each week after communion since all this has started, its a pretty powerful time each week. It usually gives me the strength to look forward. I think that having the kids may be to distract her from dealing with what she knows is right. IDK, just an observation and I'm not trying to judge.

Also, since we are on this topic, after I confronted her about OM and I thought we were R; she brought up Potipher's Wife and Joseph. She said that she felt that the same things that caused his Wife to feel neglected by Potipher and drove her to temptation she felt was similar in our M. I caught that this was trying to place the blame on me at the time we were talking and replied back that I didn't think I was a Eunuch but also added that the story was not in the bible to talk about Potipher's Wife; but to show how Christians should address temptation. It was a weird conversation, she had just finished a Bible study on 'Bad girls of the Bible.' It also showed me how much of a struggle that she must have been going through the last year, having an A while going to Bible study.

So, I agree on Fireproof. I knew it was a little 'too' easy given the sitch he was in. Its a good exercise on a healthy or slightly troubled marriage, but not where he was. I also agree with No Progress with OM......Its what I've been waiting out right now. If I believe my W, the actual R was over before BD; I think my W was still in it and kept pursuing and that's one main reason she left. To show him how serious she was. If he was going to leave with GF, I think he would have by now. I think he's trying to figure out how to get out of this too, but I don't know. I can tell you, I may have prayed once or twice for him. He's got a kid and seemed to have more fortitude to stick with his current R because of his family (so my W says.)

My W is a person that is so driven to finish what she starts that she will sacrifice everything to get it. This was one of the main issues with our M, she would get involved in something 'fun' like volunteering and take it to the point that she was so stressed out it would affect every other part of her life. I think her pursuit of OM is/was that way. Its the main thing that she would need to change for me to be okay with reconciling.

[MCS]

So, sitch update.....

Counseling today and the improvement in communications has continued. Our conversation was based on kids logistics, but it was smooth, relaxed and actually enjoyable. I did catch her 'saying' things to me that were similar to what MC has told me to say to her to keep the conversation going....stories about the kids.

So halfway through it was clear that the session was on good terms, I was feeling good and I felt like we were just talking like we used to. My W looked down and was reading something. I was looking at her and I realized right there that my love for her is so alive and well in my heart. It was so tough to hold back. I just wanted to lean forward and hug her. It was that same dorky feeling you get when you would admire someone that didn't realize it. Your mind wanders, your heart rate accelerates and you are trying your hardest not to get caught staring, but you can't look away. Ugh, tough, tough, tough.....

Well that aside; I can say that my short term goals are starting to be met, Improving our communication about the kids. The MC was so excited that we were talking so easily. He's only seen the absolute strife we've had over the last couple months.

No expectations either way, but I'm wondering why this change occurred, like I was talking about the other day. Instead of over analyzing (half of me thinks this is good, half thinks its bad) I'm just going to chock it up to this being the next stepping stone to wherever this journey is going. We need to be co-parents first regardless of anything else.

[MCS]

Talking to a good friend today about sitch and he said something to me that hit me so hard, in a good way to explain some of W's actions over the last 6 months.

I was telling him how now W is acting back to normally, the feelings I have for her came rushing back in, I knew I was still in Love with her. I said to him that it was so much easier when W was acting weird and mean, I could justify in my head that she was someone I didn't want to be with for how she was acting.

He said, "MCS, now you probably know how W felt and why W has tried to see everything bad in you, even is she had to make it up in her head. It helped her feel distant and disconnected from you, easier to deal with 'being done' with you. IDK, but I'm sure it was one reason that she's avoided you, it makes her second guess when your not the 'monster' that she can create when she's not around you. "

Made me think about some of the advice here and how WAS acts to us.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Have been keeping up with your sitch, lurking in the background. Wrote a long post and decided to scrap it.

I am relieved that you and W are more comfortable talking now. It is an important step.

I wanted to raise an issue with you and discuss a different matter on which I would value your views.

The first issue is that of righteous anger, I am a left footer and in my religion of course everything is confidential, sealed confessional and intensely private. My priest (minister) is merely a conduit to the higher power. This is of course a harder and an easier path. My conscience is between myself and that which is spirit, my married partners path is also with their spirit. it is not for me to judge my H, he and his higher power will hold him to account.

In my faith no one has the right or the authority to interfere between Spouses nor between any person and their higher power. So I am incredulous when I hear elders in other churches managing that relationship. When Jesus said do not sin he was mandating not condemning. This is very unfamiliar to me., the concept of holding to account. It is very different and I find myself unexpectedly resisting the concept.

So to return to righteous anger, we justify our anger by telling ourselves we are 'right' and entitled to our beliefs. Another must have the societal structured response or else be forced back into line. Most of us do what we believe is for the best even if our thinking is unbalanced or crooked. Some one with the background of your W is unlikely to be acting as she is from a narcissistic stance and is most assuredly behaving from unmet need of one sort or another. MCS when W realises that unmet need is not to be met then she will cease running down the cheesless tunnel. Righteous anger will not help MCS, expecting penance atonement and to free of guilt and shame are conflicting goals for W.

In order to move MCS position to R or a new relationship MCS may need to let go of expectation and righteous anger. This is not serving MCS well, change happens MCS and like it or no change will continue. You can accept that W has new goals and desires or you can stay stuck. So how to let go of righteous anger, detatch and observe? This will be much harder if we add the conventional expectation of M, the sense that W should behave in a specific way. V believes that these constraints may be the shackles from which W would like to escape and she can see no disbarment to change. W has her needs. MCS has his. Both want the best for their children. With peace I say this, MCS please let go of righteous anger, let W work her sitch.

The discussion point is about love, it is Vs belief that there can be no unconditional love between adults. Between the individual or the higher power love is unconditional and we channel that love to others. Love for children and dependants is always unconditional but with another adult this is not possible except for rare moments. I also question whether unconditional love for self is either possible or necessary.

The love, I talk of is universal love the type which surrounds us and into which we tap to support ourselves. It is good that you love W and this will shine from every pore.

So what is love? A study of love takes us to analysis categorisation of it. My way of thinking of love is more in line with the structured view that marital love has three components to it. The Stemberg model of adult love, which I find appealing.

http://katherinemarr.com/2013/05/29/on-love/

Love in this context is not a physiological (lambic) state, whether one accepts that there are six (Eikmann) or eight (Plutchet) states of emotion, [joy, contempt, sadness, anger, surprise and fear plus anticipation and acceptance). It is not governed by the primary hormones of the body.

In order to explain this mystic state of love we end up with mental or higher mind emotions. What is clear to me is that it is possible to quickly change state with the mental emotions but not immediately with the physiological ones.

http://www.deepermind.com/02clarty.htm

Anger of itself may be involuntary but the body can not it appears hold two states at one time. Anger can be managed by changing state, by doing something different in that moment. Righteous part of anger can be released and the anger managed. I believe this is why it is called anger management rather than anger control.

I have concluded that there is no physiological state called love and that limmerant love is a mental compulsion and has its analogous root comparative in addiction and compulsion. This of itself has to diminish as all addictions require increased doses, which in a relationship context becomes unbearable. This appears to me to be the reason that WAS trade down in an EA or PA as the needy A partner will be more tolerant of addictive love. I am open to be persuaded that unconditional love exists in an adult relationship context, but at the moment I am incredulous. I would value your views.

V

[MCS]

V,

Thanks for the post, I'm having a bad PMA at the moment and then I read through this and it got me in a better place. It's some pretty deep stuff that I'm going to need to digest and re-read a couple times to give you an insightful response. However, I'll go off the cuff for an initial reaction.

So, I think a lot of my feeling of unconditional love is right in a marriage is that I'm actually pretty novice in the love department. I think this goes for W too; but in different ways. W and I got together in college. We actually became good friends quickly and were both trying to negotiate other relationships. W pursued me and definitely caught me by surprise and if she didn't we probably would have just been friends. I was the type of guy that had a lot of friends that were girls, but never really dated much. So suffice to say, I've been in love once in my life, and as such; I've never have fallen out of love with anyone. To put it in perspective and since we're all anonymous W and I were each other's only 'partner.'

So, the only love I've experienced up to this point is parental love, family love and of course marital love. So in my eyes, I've held all of these in the same conditional feeling in my heart. It may be also why some of my issues in M were most likely me taking love and M for granted. So, I know a little about your background and you've been in and out of love for a variety of different reasons. So, I think you have much more experience in this and these feelings I'm having have never happened in my life.

So, the other thing is that I'm usually an optimistic, idealistic person. I'm the type of person that takes the impossible tasks at work and just looks at them as 'easy' to overcome (there's the idealistic part) then when the going gets tough, I usually have a good ability to control the chaos and get things working the way they need to. This is part using high expectations for myself, but also I have a great team of folks around me (that we've been together a while) that have similar goals and work ethic. This is a diatribe, but is a little bit about how I thought our M was. I felt that both of us had these same attributes and goals and I saw us as a great 'team.' I'll get back to this point in a little bit.

So also, I believe that very few people actually do things that they think are bad knowningly, but more often than not; are doing what they think is best given the situation. I guess there's never been much 'bad' in my life that I can't explain away as a miscommunication, bad decision, temporary lapse of judgement, etc. So that's where I think this righteous anger comes in for me. In my head, I could understand how W got into the situation she did, but the continual pursuit of this while me, the kids (and even her, dare I say) are suffering is where the anger comes in.

So I'm mixing thoughts, but I'll see if I can get these all together at some point. So for me, I see that what W has done in the last year was at least somewhat understandable from the perspective of her getting in her mid thirties and having some of the 'now what' moments. Compound that with her feelings that I wasn't there emotionally, I see her needs were getting met elsewhere. I see that since neither of us has had 'Love' other than each other; that feeling of the A for her may have caused her to see that as Love and not our M. This coupled with her desires for self-sufficiency (she always has) especially because she felt that she was 'trapped' in our M.

So, the engineer in me explains all of this sitch on her side, but then that leaves MCS. This is where the true person inside me is struggling. For me, my personality is to think idealistically (Wife is lost, but still cares for MCS) and also use my desire to take on challenges that others see as dire (stick with M, even though so much disrespect has happened.) The third piece is the fact that I 'still' feel that M is based on unconditional love, mainly because that's all that I've experienced in my life. Lastly, this whole feeling of not being a 'team' with my W, especially with regards to our children is another 'new' feeling that I'm struggling with. We always seemed to have the same goals throughout our M, but its obvious that over the last 1.5 years our goals were very different and I had no clue. Yet another piece of anger in me.

So as far as getting back to what you are saying. I justify my anger to myself, because I have a good reference (the Bible) that W is doing things that are 'wrong.' Now my anger stays in me for the most part, but does come out as frustration to my W. MCS is not a yell, throw, vindictive person at all. All of my stuff above has been validated in my head because W has been acting so crazy and not herself. I used that to essentially go into denial that W is making these decisions logically and still is going forward. Now that she's acting back to normal and I don't see a swing in her attitude to D, I feel that I'm justified to be angry; but I also wonder if this anger is trying to bubble up to cause myself to fall out of Love. I see my W and get that same feeling of Love, but I'm worried that its just there because its comfortable to Love her.

Lastly, people ask me all the time about forgiveness. I said to the MC that I know I'm not there because even though I tell myself that I forgive her for what she has done, I see that I have expectations on that forgiveness. Additionally, I see that her current actions compound what's happened before, so obviously I haven't forgave her yet.

[Vanilla]

MCS

I want to revisit the 'righteous anger' point at some stage with you when I have thought through how this impacts. I am convinced this is not serving you well and whilst religious dogma may appear to provide support then only God or our higher power has the position of imposing atonement. Judgement is clearly not the same as anger. Judgement acknowledges each of us is independent and has the freedom to 'sin'. As such we can be sinned against, but each of us is also a sinner. I will try to review my theological position on this, coming from a background of original sin, confession and personal accountability to that which is my higher power, then righteous anger has no place. This is very different in belief and structure. I will muse.

What I do understand is forgiveness, the Lord's Prayer on its own indictates that forgiveness is a virtue. What I am sure of is that forgiveness is very difficult to achieve in a single step. Each of us expects forgiveness, as do you for the attitudes you held before BD and for that prayer and meditation count towards atonement. If we can not forgive how can we expect forgiveness?

Forgiveness is often bigger than a single step and for me requires letting go of resentment. You are probably aware that my H is a compulsive, gambling, alcohol and smoking amoung other human weaknesses. I have my weaknesses too but these are more about impatience and distrust. H weaknesses have taken a toll on him, he is ashamed but bare faced about it. My main goal is to let go of the resentment I feel about his behaviour. I see some of this as wilful and insistent on his own way and some of it as mental illness over which H has little or no control. From this stance I can lose my resentment over his behaviour. If H ever comes out from his fog then my resentment and hurt will not serve us well. It may also hold me still in the wrong place. H has the right not to choose to be in a R with me and I may not like that but it is so. For that decision there is nothing I can do but be V and the best I can for V. H is irrational and makes his choices from an unstable place but H has the right to those choices.

You are right in your assessment I have loved a great deal, my first H died young and I still hold him to my heart. My second H I love too but more like a friend, his path has taken him to a relationship which is ambivalent on his sexuality, a recent development. I love this H very much and continue to stand for my M. I am truly blessed to have been given these great gifts and challenges in my life. I have only ever had four boyfriends and married three of them!

Each love is different and develops in its own way, whatever happens with your W then I am convinced a path can be found to a new type of love. MCS, you will need that path to forgiveness or resentment will be in your soul and spirit. This will make your own path harder and will leak into other aspects of your life. The first stage is to live for today and accept what is as this releases resentment. In this way living for today raises no expectation other than you can manage today.

Let go of the past and expect nothing of tomorrow and have peace today.
V

[MCS]

V,

So, I've been thinking about this over the last couple days and see where I think my anger is coming from. Of course, anger is a manifestation of fear, so I have to look at what I'm fearful about. Like I said, I know that I'm going to be okay on the other side of this with (hopefully) be loved by my W or by someone else. I look through that and while I'm lonely, crave affection and well some other things as well; that piece is not what's making me angry.

What's making me truly angry is that W has made a decision that affects MY relationship as a father to the kids. That's what I'm fearful about, only spending half of the kids lives with them. That's the short of it.

So, this is also where my faith needs to come into play. I guess I'm a lot more opening to leave my marriage to God, but I'm struggling to leave the decisions about the kids to him. I have backed down, I was all out going to fight for custody for them in the beginning, but I see that's not best for them at all. Now that W seems to be more focused on being a Mom, that makes it even easier.

So, I guess I look at this more from an aspect of my family, and not just my marriage.

I know its the past, but I've always wanted to have kids, even in my early 20's. My brother had kids young and said to me once that he wouldn't change it, but he didn't feel he had time for himself and his W when they wanted to be (he's D now.) Well, W wasn't sure about kids when we got married. When she asked me if that was an issue, I said that was fine; lets see what life brings us. Well, we made it through our 20's and then one day she brought home a painting of a little girl. She said it spoke to her. I realized that she was then ready to start trying.

Well, just like everything in my life, I figured it would be easy to get pregnant and it was. Within a few months my W was pregnant, but then we lost the baby at 12 weeks. So, we tried again and lost another at 8 weeks. So, we tried the fertility centers and found out that W needed to take blood thinners (via a shot in the stomach everyday.) So we finally got pregnant with S5 and it seemed like, to me that these trials helped us realize together that this is the next phase of our lives.

So fast forward 4-5 years and I saw that we were establishing quite the good family life from my standpoint. We had our ups and downs, but we definitely were a good team, good parents and loved our kids. However, given what's happened in the last year, I look back and see that my W had issues and didn't express them to me. (Once she said that she was unhappy 8 months prior to BD) It seemed like we balanced each other out, not too much stress, and so on. Well, now that I look back; I see that my W was always trying to get away. She would drop the kids off at daycare and do her own thing (an also hang out with OM.) I tolerated it, because I knew that she needed her time; but it always bothered me a little.

Anyway, I look at what she's done now and just feel so betrayed, not just in marriage, but to our family. I would do ANYTHING to protect my family (W included,) but I'm just so disappointed that there's nothing I can do about our M or keeping our family together through this. Her continuing to prevent/avoid us from doing that is where I just don't feel I'm ready to forgive. It feels like I can forgive the past, but am having trouble forgiving her in the present.

Anyway, I see that's where my anger is coming from. I think if I get to the point that I have acceptance that there's nothing I can do for the kids; I'll get better. Its still a horrible piece of life that I don't even get a chance to fight for them. However, I'm still so very fearful of only spending half their lives with them. I just wish we could at this try to work on our M, especially since everything seems to be fixable.