Calibri (3)

[Calibri]

We so desperately need to communicate with one another.

Why? Honest question. To file the taxes? Take care of the dog? I hope it's not to do some instant therapy or to convince him that D is a bad idea?
[/quote}
Why? Because we both agree that communication is something we need to work on. Anytime there's a hard situation, he shuts down, and then comes back around and says he needs to learn how to communicate. Because there's some private situations going on in my life that I need to talk about - because he's a part of that have nothing to do with taxes, or divorce or anything like that. No, it's not for instant therapy. No it's not to convince him that D is a bad idea.

Poor guy! I really hope he gets a breather from one of these. How come you know so much by the way, since you two barely communicate?

Because up until two weeks ago -- we were talking (which there's a difference between talking and communicating), sharing things that were going on.

the kid (that's my nickname for him sometimes)

Woah. I could never ever imagine my W calling me "kid". Neither would I all her that. I don't even remember another couple using this nickname, tough I'm not there in their intimacy and it might be more common than I realize.

Think of another relationship that you have with someone that you consider your equal. A cousin? A colleague? Now imagine calling him "kid". If I were to call someone kid, I'd definitely "feel" in a position of power towards that person. I'd never call my boss "kid" for instance. It's not my personality, but I might imagine calling a colleague as such, but because I feel an advantage over him.
[/quote]

It's a nickname not a assertion of domination over him, and it's a private one. I live in the southern US. We call people "hun", "sugar", "sweetie" "honey" "sugar pie" "kid" "honey bunch" etc. I'm called kid myself, alot. I do not feel an advantage over him because I once in a blue moon call him kid, nor do I feel that he is disrespectful towards me because he calls me "baby doll."

Re-read the paragraph above and it will give you a hint. See how much you yearn for controlling him again. How difficult it is for you to just accept his rhythm, his demands, his emotions. And this is when you are powerless because he's in charge. I really wonder what it looked like in the M, when you had obligations to one another. You don't want to know how he feels, you want to control it, you want to fix it, to change it. That's how it comes across. You don't want a letter or third person telling you how he feels -- which would give you the knowledge you're asking for -- you want direct communication with him because that's how you can influence him.

No, I don't want to influence him AND no I don't want a third person telling me how he feels (because honestly, it's rude to have a third person end a marriage). I would like to know what's going on with him to have such a reaction in his life. Because, and I know you'll find this shocking, it's not all about me. It's a storm of different things going on and I would like to understand what's going on so I understand.

I've been meaning to tell you that your recent concern about his safety was... over the top. You really, honestly feared that maybe he was dead and, if so, that you had a role to play? That you could still save his life, say, before he crossed that street in front of a bus? How many people you know are dying every week? What are the chances that he is dying? That you could save him? That nobody else is there for him? That he can't take care of himself?

Wow. So. Here's the thing. You know what I do for a living? Organ and tissue recovery. Off of people who die. I've currently got 20 cases on my board that I'm working on from people who have died in the past 48 hours. Some could've been prevented (like the two people who died in a car crash because they didn't buckle their seat belts), others couldn't. Those weren't my people to save. My H isn't my person to save either, in some sense. But, forgive me, but I've lost three people in my life to suicide. One of which, we didn't take their depression and their threats seriously. We poo poo'd it, said it would be fine, that they would work themselves out. And you know how they worked themselves out? By shooting themselves in the head. That's how they worked it out. I got to deliver that news to my mother. In person. At her work. That her father shot himself to death. While I know now, that we couldn't have prevented it -- it's a bitch to live with knowing that we didn't take him seriously. Maybe it would've changed something, maybe it wouldn't.

I take it seriously now, when people start showing signs of severe depression. I take it seriously when people say they're spiraling out of control and feel hopeless. When they say they feel like all they're doing is hurting people and they want it all to stop. I no longer think, "well they'll just sort it out." Do I think that H was dying because of me? No. Do I think that the perfect storm is there that could tip the scale one way or the other? Yes. Do I have concern for that? Yes, from things he's directly said, that out of respect for him I will not post here. And no, Mozza, there is no one else there for him? You know how I know? Because I pulled him OFF THE FLOOR OF HIS HOTEL ROOM on thanksgiving day, made sure he was fed, made sure he was ok, when he was so bad, because his parents couldn't be bothered to make the 2.5 hour drive to see their son in crisis, because they wanted to stay at home and watch the Macy's Day parade. Because his brother, is going through the same mental health meltdown with his own wife - hasn't talked to him since August. When I talked to his mother this weekend? She said that he wasn't depressed, that all he needed was some fresh air, and a home cooked meal and that he'd be ok. Because that's her solution to everything. Fresh air, a home cooked meal and sweep it under the table. So yes. I am aware of how many people die, I look at death daily. No, there is no one down here for my H.

I wonder if you have some savior syndrome, if this guy is your guinea pig and feeds your sense that you have to save the world (or someone). Do you think he has the same reaction you do, wondering if you're going to survive without him? It might help you to see the imbalance to imagine your reactions applied to him.

No. I don't have a savior syndrome. I just give a [censored]. Because I've seen what depression does to people. I see what mental illness does to people. I see what happens to people when they're left alone with no support system. I've seen it with my dad. My mom, my grandfather, my best friend, my husband, my childhood friend, my co-worker.


==========
Honestly, I appreciate that you comment on my thread, and "push me hard" but I think you are walking a thin line between being hard, and being rude. I would never, ever, have spoken to someone who has concern for their spouse's well being the way you spoke to me. I come here for support. I come here to learn about myself. Maybe I haven't figured it out Mozza. Maybe I'm still learning all about it. But I do not appreciate you belittling my concern over the safety and well being about my husband who is clearly in a mental health crisis. I would encourage you in the future, to show some sympathy to those who are in the throws of it -- and perhaps consider how your words might feel if they were said back to you? Should you have something similar in your sitch, I wouldn't sit there and say you were controlling or what not, I would ask you why you had concerns, and offer sympathy - instead of insinuating that you were overreacting to something that was so clearly concerning to you and your family.

[TLEE86]

Wow. So, things got heated quick. But Mozza, unfortunately Im gonna have to take C's side on this one...when I read your post, first thought was...ok that was borderline rude...and I think you might have crossed that line this time- actually IMO, i know you did. Because what you said about the "how many people do you know die every week?" affected me too. Because in my line of work, people do die. All the time. And it [censored] watching it happen in front of your eyes. So id just be careful with what you say in the future, because depending on someones sitch (outside of DBing), you never know whats really going on.

--------
C, I think Wonka hit the nail on the head. And I agree, that asking him that you "hope to share some feelings" is a bit much right now...Id stick with the "Im always here to talk if you need it" and go from there.

What you said about making him feel safe, comfortable as a priority should definitely top your to do list for this. Let the dust settle. I know you still want this, so drive on.

[Zelda09]

C,

Read all of these email drafts as though you are the one receiving it. Toots is simple and sweet. Yours has a lot of expectation and business tone to it. I feel pressure when I read it. Even the line where the empathy is offered, I guess bc it reads assuming (even if it's true). Less is more leave him room to figure out a time/method to contact you - almost sounds like you're trying so hard to ensure it will happen, he's got no power in that.

I am excited for you bc you're no longer looking at a brick wall.

Let me see if I've followed correctly? Things went well until you lost your temper over the Tinder thing, right? I get it. I nearly drove my car off the road when my H said 7 days ago he wanted to see other ppl. I nearly screamed and gave up when he said something else a few days later. My hurt feelings kick like a big raging mule. I am sometimes embarrassed at the strength of my anger in whatever proportion to the thing I think I'm so upset about. Sounds like you regret the way you handled and/or trying to minimize what was so symbolic about Tinder and all?

When I read your posts, you love fiercely and react fiercely. You seem like you have so much fire and passion. This is probably what drew your H to you! It might be overwhelming to a guy just trying to hear himself for the (first?) time. I don't know if there was any magic in the words I spoke to my H yesterday. But when I told him that I had no interest in seeing his actions as right, wrong, justified or not - and I realized he did what was right for him at the time, I had to deal with my feelings about it all as a separate thing - he put his ring back on as unceremoniously as you can do something like that. The important thing isn't that I said it, but it's truly where I'm coming from. That's the freedom your H is looking for, I think. Total room to make his own choices and learn how to think for himself, I believe. Pulling back may not be about no contact in your case, but leaving the ball in his court 110% while showing respect, and keeping YOUR feelings dim - he can barely handle his own sounds like

I respect you so much for your courage.

[Vanilla]

C

I am going to interject here. No one more than Mza has had more 2x4s over his sitch. There are some interchanges between Mza and Wonka where Wonka was explaining to Mza how she evaluated his sitch. Mza after an internal personal struggle and some strong words took Wonka advice on board and started to grow. Mza knows more than any one that to reach a DBer often requires a forceful post. in truth I can not see this care he has as rude, forceful absolutely. This is a crossroad C and often we resist that which we most need to learn. Mza is the messenger heed his words, the message he gives.

T, I know why you say what you do but please read Mza thread.

Often the things we most need to face are the hardest to accept and Mza is acting with great forbearance when he asks you to consider why you have your H sensitive feelings to look after. He is making his point directly.

I do support Mza in his views C, let this H grow up. You can not talk him out of his crisis, take responsibility for his job, compete with his controlling mother or support him into his living arrangements. This is not your job, H has much work to be himself. Let him. C you have accepted that you are controlling, leave H alone to lie in the bed he just made.

C you have enough to concentrate on C and her sitch.

This is the core of the advice we have all been giving you. the rest is noise.

V

[Wonka]

C,

Sorry for the hijack...I'd like to talk with Vanilla a bit.

Vanilla,

I respectfully disagree with your take on this. You are a very wise and good DBer....but...

It is a matter of perspective. In Mozz's case, he was not very nice to his W and his daughters which was addressed forcefully to get him to see how his actions have impacted his relations with his loved ones in a very negative way. And there's Calibri whose H, based on her reporting, has exhibited suicicial behaviors which should be taken very seriously which was not the time to be "forceful" in DBing here.

Based on C's reporting, it is only perfectly natural that she is very deeply concerned about her H given his family history and her workplace environment. She knows what she's talking about and I respect that part of her process.

It's not my place to judge C's reactions here IN THE CONTEXT of suicide.

[Vanilla]

C,

Sorry for the hijack...I'd like to talk with Vanilla a bit.

Vanilla,

I respectfully disagree with your take on this. You are a very wise and good DBer....but...

It is a matter of perspective. In Mozz's case, he was not very nice to his W and his daughters which was addressed forcefully to get him to see how his actions have impacted his relations with his loved ones in a very negative way. And there's Calibri whose H, based on her reporting, has exhibited suicicial behaviors which should be taken very seriously which was not the time to be "forceful" in DBing here.

Based on C's reporting, it is only perfectly natural that she is very deeply concerned about her H given his family history and her workplace environment. She knows what she's talking about and I respect that part of her process.

It's not my place to judge C's reactions here IN THE CONTEXT of suicide.

Wonka
That is not the point I am making here. I totally agree with you on Mza sitch, always have and did.

I am not comparing sitches here.

I do not read Mza post as in any way a comment on suicide or depression, but no doubt he can comment on that for himself. Mza post is forceful. He is making the point about control and I personally find no rude intent in it nor a dismissal of the seriousness of suicide. If H is showing suiicidal tendencies or is talking that way then he needs serious medical intervention and that is urgent. It is crisis that must be addressed without delay.

V

[Mozza]

I apologize, Calibri.

I didn't mean to be rude. Where I've been, it was out of laziness, because I let a stream of consciousness fall on the page without thinking about how it sounded to you.

More importantly, I didn't mean to hurt you. Vanilla is right, I've been hurt too on this Forum. I've lost sleep and cried because of the way things were told to me -- I didn't even object to the content, which was nothing new to me and had been acknowledged previously. I take onboard that I've done to you what was then done to me. I'm very sorry.

I come on your thread because I identify with you. I'm just as forceful as you are in many ways. When I speak to you, perhaps I speak to me. At a moment where I'm deeply disappointed in myself, upset that I'm doing too little too late, for me, for my W, for my kids, I likely come out too strong when I see hints of the same things in others. It's also entirely possible that I see things that aren't there, because my brain is seeking certain patterns.

There are certain things that you've mentioned in your response that were new to me and that do change my take. I didn't think of your H as suicidal for instance. Obviously, this is a serious concern and hopefully you can warn other people if he does not want you to intervene. English is not my native language and I know few people from the South so it's very possible that "kid" is as neutral as you portray it.

As for death, I'm sorry to have touched such a sensitive point so carelessly. I've had suicide in my family too and I've been a suicide prevention team a long time ago. We then lost a kid in a situation in which I had direct involvement and I still think about it some 20 years later. It doesn't compare to your experience, but I mean it as a show of empathy.

Let me try to rephrase the heart of my message in a more constructive way. What I see as your challenge is accepting to let go. I hear that you don't mean to control him. The line can be hard to spot because trying to control your life kind of implies to control his actions, as is the case for all of us LBS. It's frustrating, as many of us know, to have our WAS behave destructively, for them and many others around them.

People have agency and can do self-harm. It's hard to witness when you care about someone, when it affects you too. It sets off all sorts of alarm bells. Your H is trying to set boundaries. I know this word is delicate as he more or less pulled it out of a hat when his C dropped it on his lap. He appears, to my remote perspective, as someone who's long been doing what other expected of him and very afraid of going against it. A "nice guy" in the worst sense of the term. Now he's throwing a tantrum typical of such "nice guys" who blow up after holding in for too long. It's unfair that you be the victim of it, and it's also sad that he should suffer so much from it. It sounds like he would actually need the support of a spouse at the moment, not be in the middle of a D.

What I'm learning in my S is that my wife has both relieved me from any responsibility towards he well-being and herself from owing me anything. She tells me every few weeks how much alcohol she takes, which is way too much. Yes, I'm concerned, but no I can't do anything unless it affects the kids. She can self-medicate with alcohol, she can push us deeper into the rabbit hole of D because of it, but it's no longer for me to reason her, to save her. It's very hard for me to accept as someone who's been, or considered himself to be, the "voice of reason" in the couple, stating what's often obvious ("alcohol is not a solution to your problems"). She may have to hurt to learn the lessons and it will be painful to see, especially as it affects me.

DB is not only about saving ourselves from D and perhaps reconciling, it's also about finding new ways to be to avoid the mistakes of the past. In my case, I'm learning not to criticize. Obviously, I'm still not very good at it and have much to learn. In your case, it's up to you to see and decide how you need to change to increase your chances of success in love in the future. I'm suggesting that you may be more controlling that even you realize. Perhaps you're not ready to hear it, at a moment where you feel that control would dig you out of a deep hole, and perhaps I'm completely wrong. It's a journey and there's no need to come to a conclusion today.

I am not a vet. I'm just in the middle of a struggle like you. All I can do is help you think about your sitch. I'm not one to give you advice based on my success for instance. I don't take any offense when you reject my analysis, I'm fully aware that I don't have to live with the consequences of your conclusions, only you do.

I hope this helps.

[Pink17]

C,

You need to calm down. You need to cool your head for a minute or so. Perhaps you do not see it, but when we read your posts we can feel the turmoil inside you.

You won't accomplish anything in this state of mind. Breath and then breath some more to have a clear mind and make decisions on whatever.

From were I am sitting you sound very depressed yourself. Are you taking any anti depressant? Just something to take the edge of this pressure and anxious time?

Hey, and I am not being rude or making fun of you. I am myself hurting too. Unfortunately for us, we can not cry loud and get what we want.

These crazy words show how you are not well right now... I need to know what is going on? Why, why you need to know?

Do you know where is he living already? It seems that for now his parents show up to help him.

Honey, you also need some help, maybe a good cry with a friend or family, it would make you feel good. You need to give some space to your H, maybe some time off (maybe a feel days) will take the pressure away for both of you. And then in a few days maybe you too can have a decent conversation.

I sure never want to go surfing on a hurricane stage 5, you see all about that scenario would be the end of me. So, take a few days to regroup, you don't need to hurry so much and destroy so much.

Again I ask, what you think you can accomplish when you are so mixed up yourself, when it is all boiling inside your head and your heart?

Think about what is your goal, what do you want with this conversation, what is the impression you want to leave, what different in you he will see next time. If you are afraid of the D, then don't push to it. The more you act this way the further he will want to be from you.

Think...Think... Think... and thiiiiiiinnnkk a little more.
Try to make sense on all the middle and the ends will be justified.

Hope you are feeling better. No one is taking you pain for granted. But re read your posts when you feel better and you will see the desperation we can see from outside.

Hugs,
XOXO,
Pink

[Wonka]

Calibri,

Are you okay, sweetie?

[Pink17]

Hey C,

Hope you are just taking a break from the board but is doing well, as you can at this point, of course.

You have a lot ahead of you. You have a lot to hope for too. This storm will pass, things will settle. It's not all done even if you decide to keep to yourself right now.

There are times where we can't see things can get better, but time is a good friend not only for you but for your H too. You both need this time.

Your H has a lot of work to do on himself and it may be his good break to find a purpose that he is looking for. Don't be all negative, after a tsunami there is always rebuilding.

Like in my sitch, I can't tell if we will ever have our Hs back, our M back, but I can't stop living and there should be another day. It's hard, but many people survived this and are happy with themselves. If it came to terms that there will be reconciliation, then fantastic.

But if its time to walk in different paths them we need to find ours. The wound will be always there, we can ignore it and have another bad R, or even worse, be bitter forever. Or we can learn and find ourselves in a better R, giving love and being loved, with more understand of how fragile a marriage can be.

Have hope, while there is life there is always something new to learn, to see, to live.

I hope you take to your heart that you will be OK, one way or the other. It is not the end of Calibri, there is always tomorrow.

Hugs to you in this time of pain,
XOXO,
Pink