Calibri (3)

[raliced]

Raliced - yeah, I've often wondered if people with kids think those of us without kids are a bit crazy for doing all this. I agree it will certainly be easier for us to run for the hills and not look back! But emotionally I think this experience is pretty similar for us. It's the investment in the R that is really what counts here. I've been with my H for 15 years. That's still hard to walk away from emotionally, even if it is easier from a practical standpoint.

Just for the record- I don't think you all are crazy at all. I actually respect what you are willing to do. When I say hold you head high, I mean it sincerely.

[TLEE86]

C, I've obviously identified with you and have been following your sitch for a long time. Really feel like we've stated this journey together so again this really [censored] [censored] and I am truly sorry for this. I've been re-thinking of your sitch today and am going to play devils advocate for lack of better words..because my first reaction was also WTF?! Now I'm trying to take a step back and think a little

What did H really do wrong. He lied about what he was doing as far as online dating site and was flirting with OW and continued to lie until caught red handed. Obviously a pretty [censored] up move. But a lot of people, if not almost all, on this site have H/W in EA or PA's. Most lied until they got caught and are all still in them. So is this really uncommon or is this just the absolute one thing you will not tolerate, even if what he did boils down to continuously lying and flirting with random women via phone.

You said the one thing your boundary was when you were first S was you both will not date Other people. But isn't one of the first rules, don't believe anything they say? To include what he says about people pleasing or sort of wanting to go to counseling or work on M? By the time you guys separated, H was already lost in the sauce and had no idea what he was saying...I don't think he ever meant this promise because he was already in the fog.

As for his parents, good move on blocking them. But don't believe anything they say either...they're his parents and most parents, regardless of our R with in laws. Will defend their son or daughter first no matter what. There are few, I think, that actually side with the LBS, because it's their kid making the decision to leave the M...so they'll support that. Maybe I'm biased because my W mother is absolutely horrible with all this and I had a decent relationship with her.

As far as NC, I'd probably suggest that as well...maybe go completely dark for yourself, take a vacation if you can, anything to get your mind off this...I'm so sorry C. I know how much work and effort you put into this, I can see how much you've grown and all the books and sites you read.

To sum up this essay, I think at the end iof the day, H continuously lied about being on dating site and flirting with women, and said a bunch of crap about people pleasing..which we know WAS say all kinda of [censored]. So is what he did really uncommon and is it really something you won't push past?

You know of all people i stand by whatever you decide to do, an wish nothing but the absolute best for you..but these are just some thoughts after I've digested you sitch for a couple days. Praying for you.

[gan]

Just for the record- I don't think you all are crazy at all. I actually respect what you are willing to do. When I say hold you head high, I mean it sincerely.

Oh, I know you meant it that way, Raliced, and it's nice to hear! Thank you.

I've noticed that people in general (not specifically you) are a little quicker dropping the "you should just cut and run" comment for us youngens without kids. In one way I know there's some truth to that statement, maybe even a bit of envy as it would be much easier for us to do it compared to those with kids. On the other hand it makes me cringe a bit as it dismisses the fact that we too have a need to grieve and an opportunity to grow though this experience. I was glad when Maybell said something to KGirl about the time investment she put in her R - it was longer than some others on here and its naturally going to be difficult to move forward. Easier once divorced perhaps, but still difficult processing the immediate situation. In reality, I doubt any of us would have predicted that we'd be willing or capable of standing this long but here we are so we keep on truckin' along with everyone else!

Anyway, back to Calibri....and thanks again for acknowledging our efforts, Raliced!

[Karma12]

Wow...it sounds like he is waffling all over the place. How can you possibly trust anything that comes our of his mouth. It does sound like he has no idea who he is what he wants. He just morphs into whatever is expected at the time.

His parents are over involved. This may be the root of his issues. I have adult children and would never get involved in their person relationships like that. I would have told my son to man up and figure things out and go talk to you.

So you really want a man child as a husband? He needs IC to grow up and stand on his own two feet. So sorry you are hurting.

[Sotto]

Hi Calibri

I'm so sorry for recent developments - you must be reeling after that. I posted a reply to you on my sitch before reading this. If it helps at all, I heard that our R was 'over' through a mutual friend back in November. H had told me the previous month that he was 'lost and confused' and 'not moving right now' in terms of making a decision. Our contact is dim/dark atm.

He hadn't asked our friend to tell me that it was over, but she felt awful 'knowing' and 'knowing that I didn't know.' I told her that I would be grateful if she didn't tell him she had told me. I said to her that I was sure if he had made a decision, he would tell me herself. She agreed with this.

He never has told me since, and we are two months further on now! It sounds like your H is all over the place, and IMO, whilst he may be asking his parents for help, they should only be supporting from behind and not doing what they have done - totally inappropriate.

Also, I'm with Ganbite on the no kids comments. H and I don't have kids, but I have known SS since he was 3, and lived with him at weekends since he was 7 (he's 14 now.) I know not having kids together means there could be a 'clean break,' but that's still hard to come to terms with. I'll still post the 6 factors later as promised, just in case it's of any use.

Sending you my very best wishes, Toots x

[Sotto]

So, in terms of the 6 reasons above, advice is as follows:

1) Doesn't have tools. Don't reinforce the stereotype, telling him to 'man up,' 'grow a spine' or similar. Encourage him to open up and express his feelings. Model what he should be doing. Acknowledge and name the feeling you are seeing. 'I know this is difficult, painful, overwhelming etc.' and persevere. Sit with him and witness these difficult emotions. Don't try to rescue or attack. Let Pandora's box be opened.

2) Lying. Take everything he says with a HUGE pinch of salt. (I hate you, I'll do anything to save our M.) If he's routinely lying to you and himself, how can he know how he feels? Best to live with the uncertainty for a while, rather than being let down, or swallowing what he says whole and turning a catastrophe into a crisis.

3) People pleaser. This behaviour goes back a long way probably - he may still try and appease his mother. If you become assertive yourself, it is easier for him to become assertive. And next time you find out about 'secret texting to OW', don't think 'this is the end' think 'what else would he do, he's a people pleaser.' It's hard to turn from a people pleaser into an assertive person and will take time.

4) Technology - Most couples could benefit from a rethink about smartphone etiquette. Not when we eat, go on a date, in the bedroom etc..We're tethered to our phones and may be on call 24/7. We are often 'absent' to those we are with. Where M is in crisis, or after an A, it's important to agree technology boundaries. But if your S agrees to stay off SN sites after an A, don't sit there browsing FB yourself.

5) Shame - keep any criticism/concerns specific and targeted to the behaviour. Use the formula - I feel....when you....because. Eg: I feel annoyed when you come home late without calling, bacause I don't know when to eat. Also, follow up with reassurance - I know you're a good man etc. Don't get trapped in a downward shame spiral where your complaints prompt more of the same 'medicating' behaviour. Eg: I'm a bad man, unlovable, so I'll start dating online to get affirmation and approval.

6) Fear - Why doesn't he just stop running and face his fears? Problem is, you're also frightened, and you lash out or make threats. Best to wait until you can calmly discuss your fears and ha can express his. Remember, he is just as frightened as you, and if you can find common ground - acknowledging you are both in a fearful place - you lay the foundations for tackling this as a team.

Hope this is useful to someone. Toots x

[Calibri]

hi all

Thank you for your support. It really means a lot to me. Most of you asked the se
questions so I'll just answer them all here.

1) can I get past this/where am I with all this?

With the Facebook message to the OW. It was in December. This were not good between us in December. The messages on H's end were flirty, but nothing like sexting or anything like that. The tinder thing, that, most likely
No. Had it been Sep-Dec when things were horrific between us, maybe. But to be active on the app, the same day he told me "let's work on things" - no. Absolutely not. And of course, I have no way of knowing what time he was on tinder in relations to having the conversation with me. Yes, he's deleted the app and y friended the OW off Facebook. But it's still there. We had an agreement in our M about no EA, no PA nothing. That if it got to that point, we would have the respect to talk to one another and try and work it out and if it couldn't be worked out, we would seperate. When my H started acting weird in August, I snooped. There was nothing to indicate anything. When he moved out, this wasn't supposed to be a seperation, it was suppost to be a "he's getting his head on straight." And then the spew and anger started. But whe he moved out, I asked him if he wanted to see other people during the seperation and he said no. That he didn't have the emotional capacity to do it. He reiterated that multiple times over the months. And then he got caught. And now he has holled himself up and is refusing to speak to me in any capacity because of his "boundary that his therapist said he needed to set." Which translates to: this gives me the perfect excuse to hide and not have to explain my shitty behavior to you.

2) Where am I at? I'm shell shocked. Numb. Flabbergasted. He lies to me. He knew what my boundaries were and he went past them anyway, seperated or not. He lied to me about wanting to work on things. He led me on because he didn't want to hurt me and so he created a false reality to buy himself time.
Time for what? I don't know. To figure out how to get out of the marriage, to find another woman - so I would file, and he wouldn't have to. I don't know. He's lying to everyone. His parents told me, in their self righteous conversation towards me, that H had warned me at the beginning of out relationship that he had a bad temper (he never did) and that at any point if I felt unsafe, he instructed me to run far away from him and and never come back because he couldn't be trusted
With my safety. (This was never discussed, ever. I have never been afraid of my husband. Afraid for him, yes. Afraid of him, no. Not that I condone physical
Violence, but I am completely self assure that should a physical altercation break out, that I could handle myself. But that's neither here nor there.) H also lies to his parents saying that he had given me multiple chances to reconcile with me,
That we had gone out to dinner multiple times, and talked multiple times and Everytime we talked or for together, it ended up In a nasty altercation. Not true at all. We went to dinner once. We went to lunch, once. He hasn't lost his temper towards me since November. We've had a solid month of good conversations. Were there bumps in the road and misunderstandings, sure. But nothing that his parents are saying. He lied to them about what's going on, he's lied to me. It's all lies.

I just can't, y'all. I can't. I've tried so hard since BD to work on myself and to work on things. I've really started to make some breakthroughs and changing behavior. My H even noticed and commented and said how great of a job I was doing at working on myself. To have the lies, to have his parents tell me we are getting a divorce, to hide when things are going wrong. To lead me down the path of reconciliation with no intent to do so? That's not someone I can be married to. Even if he were to change, even if he completely changed and became what I needed, I wouldn't be able to trust a word that came out of his mouth. And with his parents in the picture, our R would be teetering on the edge of a sword. His parents and the [censored] up relationship that he has with them is more powerful and more dangerous than any OW. In fact, his parents are the OW, in a sense. Have alway interfered, always manipated, always controlled things.
H wants their approval so much that he will sacrifice a marriage fr it.

Speaking of his parents. It took everything I had not to come through the phone and strangle his mother when she told me that I should, "feel lucky that she was telling me that I was getting a divorce, because most people walk out and they never get any closure, and the next time they hear from someone it's from a lawyer." I told her that she must be so proud of both of her sons, because they both walked out of their marriages and she was now financially supporting her grown ass children who couldn't do the decent thing in life, and that my H
Should have the decency to talk to me, and she should
Have the decency to stay out of it, because she was coddling him and encouraging her sons to continue to make shifty choices in life. And that bitch had the nerve to tell me that what my H did wasn't adultery and that I didn't get to Mae the relationship rules. And I told her right back that she didn't get to decide for me what was acceptable to me personally in my
Marriage and that I wasn't making any rules, just expecting common decency from my H.

She also alledged that he had met another woman at work and she was encouraging him to file for divorce. Would love clarification in that. Doubt I'll ever get it.

3) people pleasing/low self esteem. Yes, my H has always been a people pleaser. It stems from low self esteem. Which stems from his mother being a raging alcoholic and drug addict and having to take care of her and parent here while he was a child. SS hit the nail on the head with her post. When he as with me, he was one way, with his parents, another way. With his IC another way. I always noticed how he would morph his personality to suit the group of people around him. When he's around his parents, he becomes really crude and "good ol counry boy" because that's who his parents are. When we were with friends at crossfit, he was friends with a lot of "bro" type dudes and would act accordingly. When he was around me, he took on traits of my personality.

H doesn't know who he is, or what he wants. I believe he desperately doesn't want to be the bad person here, and like Wonka posted, is really back peddling over samantics and what not.

The bottom line is this: H does not know who he is. He may never know who he is. He will stay in the toxic relationship with his parents
Because he wants their love and approval. He will the now me away for it.

I am so much better than this. I love him, I do love him with everything I have, everything I am. But my trust is shattered. I am broken. He has broken me. He is not what I want in a partner. He is not someone who I can trust anymore. Hell, he won't even talk to me. He isn't begging to get back with me. It's all been pretty words and lies to buy himself time to figure out how to get out of this.

He's made many mistakes in our marriage. Things that lesser people would get divorced over. And I always gave him the benefit of the doubt and have him second chances. And the moment he started being unhappy in our relationship, he didn't have the strength to speak up. Instead he checked out and blames me and eventually melted down and destroyed everything in the process.

He gets to walk away and leave behind everything. Me. Our dogs, our house, our lives. It's all collateral damage to him. He gets to go out and do whatever he wants. He has mommy to bank roll him.

I'm left behind trying to figure out how to out our house on the market, where I can live, how to do this all.

How to start my life over.

(PS, I typed this all on my phone so please excuse errors and what not)

[Calibri]

And from a completely stupid standpoint, I really don't want to have papers filed against me. I so do not want to have the sheriffs department come to my place of employment to hand me the paperwork that's going to start the process of ending my marriage. But really, my marriage is over. So what the hell does it matter.

I've had enough humiliation.

[Calibri]

And in the horror story that has become my life this weekend, another close friend came up to me today while I was working out (he knows what's going on, including latest development) and told me that several of the people I worked out with, have seen out and about at the bars drinking. No mention if there were OW, and honestly at this point, it doesn't matter. But my god, he portrayed
himself as someone who could barely get out of bed. So depressed. Barely functioning. In such a deep hole.

I feel like I've been punched in the face multiple times.

I know believe half of what they say, blah blah. But he was in the house last week, fixing [censored] for me. Unasked. He told me we were going to work on it. He told me he wanted to see me in my competition in April. And with one text message it's all gone. All gone.

I know I'm in shock. But I can't. This isn't the man I married. Even at BD and all his anger he communicated with me, even at his angriest. Now it's reduced to no contact and using his mommy to do his dirty work.

Jesus.

[Zues126]

Hey Calibri. I've followed your sitch from the beginning and have just had not much to contribute. But I would like to share a few ramblings at this time.

First and foremost, I'M SORRY you're here. There is nothing worse I can think of. There are other worse losses I'm sure, yet there is something about this type of betrayal and loss that shatters your belief in the universe and humanity. I don't know you but I'm sending you tons of support.

As for your sitch, I don't have any specific feedback. I have thought a lot about the patterns I've seen on DB forums and in my own sitch. What I've noticed is that no one can really understand at the beginning how gone things really are.

Yes, we tell ourselves that the old M is dead.
We try to let go.
We try to understand aliens posses our WAS.

We try to do all of these things. Yet the denial/bargaining/anger of our grieving process can't be bypassed. We're human, and it's what humans do.

What that means is that even when we are telling ourselves we're letting go and accepting the reality, we are still looking for signs that it might be able to work. That's denial. We still think maybe we can make changes that will turn it around. That's bargaining. We still get hurt and then angry when it doesn't work that way and when we feel the betrayal. That's obviously anger.

It's almost like there are two phases of DBing. The first phase, which can last a 1-6 months after initial BD (or- shudder- longer) in which people THINK they are DBing. Then there's another BD...something more extreme which finally breaks through the denial and proves that this is a reality. Then another round of DBing begins.

Look at Pink's thread. She is just going through this now with the confirmed A.

In my thread I thought I was DBing for a few months and 'making progress', it all blew up with a confirmed A and a suicide attempt, followed by some other extreme aftermath.

So all I can say is that this really, really, really [censored] and I'm really sorry you're here. Just know that it will be easier to move forward on your own and accept that the M is done, and that this was necessary for your own acceptance of that fact. I'm not telling you that there's 0% that you'll ever meet in the future, only that this is what is meant when they say your old M is dead. There is no saving anything and you will have to get divorced, learn to be on your own, grieve that loss, start your new life, and not look back. Maybe someday the person you become and the person he becomes will cross again, but you could say that about your first boyfriend too. Time to move forward.

See my post on It Hurt's thread for a look at what the next 3 months will look like. It will get easier. For now you have a lot to process. A lot of emotion. Totally understandable. Get it out here, and know that we feel your pain and care about you.