Guys, I am starting to run out of options, so I am hoping that someone here on this site will have some thoughts to help me out. I a 39 year-old expat American entrepreneur that has been living in Asia for the last 7 years. I met my wife 11 years ago while an exchange student in graduate school (she was also an exchange student, but from a different US university). We were attracted to each other at the time and became friends (with a kiss or two thrown in) but given that we were returning to the US to different schools nothing really progressed. We would meet up on occasion and I was more romantically inclined at first than she was, but eventually we ended up in the same city and started to date. At the time I had a high-pressure, high paying job while she was working more temporary positions, but our relationship started to take shape. I was in my mid-20s so was reluctant to really commit to the relationship, and though I was happy to be in the relationship, still wanted to ‘explore’. She on the other hand kept pushing the relationship to the next milestones, first moving in together and then deciding to move abroad to Asia. She also led the drive to engagement/marriage - I went along, though not exactly enthusiastically. To be clear, my reluctance had nothing to do with her, but just my immaturity and need to keep options ‘open’ (I wasn’t actually a spring chicken when we got married - 33 - so its not that I can chalk up any reluctance to extreme youth - its just the big city temptations keep men unattached longer than they might otherwise be.)
All that said, we had a wonderful relationship and I truly loved her when we got married, as I would never taken that step unless I knew that I wanted to grow old with her. We quickly moved abroad after we got married, to follow a pretty interesting business opportunity for me. I think the first few months abroad were very good as we were settling in and she was looking for a job. However, after those few months, a combination of my ceaseless travel, her inability to find a good job (it was the beginning of the GFC, so not her fault) really started to take a toll on the relationship. I started to resent her inability to really ‘pull her weight’ with regards to household expenses and I began to see being married as a sort of a weight. Instead of exploring the world and working as a team, I started to become more distant and less forthcoming with regards to finances as my resentment rose. She tried to placate me, not trying to stir me up, and go along with my tantrums. I would make excuses to be out of the home and surrounded myself with single male friends that were constantly going out, and I wouldnt invite her. She suffered these slights with a few complaints, mostly asking me to be more affectionate toward her and to be ‘nicer to her’ She would try to make me hug her when I got home, but I would push her away. It breaks my heart to remember these things now! In any case, this persisted - the sex life shrivelled up and she started to push to have a child. I realised that we were both in our mid-30s so a request like that was not inappropriate, but I resented her even more for asking to do that when our financial lives were still precarious.
In any case, i went along with it, and we now have a wonderful, amazing young son that is almost 3 years old. Hoping that would stall the downturn in the marriage, and despite the pressures of having a young child, she quickly turned around and pushed to have a second. This I resisted and made angry protestations.
And then one day, about a year and a half ago, it all stopped. She stopped trying to grab my hand, or beg me to sit in the same room as her. She stopped wanting to have a baby. It just stopped. She didn’t say anything, but she just stopped trying. This got my notice, and unlike the typical WAW scenarios, I actually immediately felt that something was wrong (not that her lack of nagging was somehow a good thing). When I engaged her on it what was going on she said “look, I just don’t think this works. I don’t think that I will change the way I feel. I tried for a very long time, but there was always something wrong. And i finally realised it. there’s no reason for you or I to be in misery. Wouldnt it be easier if we didn’t have the stress of trying to make this work all of the time?” She was fairly composed, though teared up when she recounted this. I of course promptly did the classic, tearful begging her to stay and telling her that her marriage vows were sacred, etc. Promising that I would go to counselling. Pressuring her to go to counselling.
She finally agreed and we started counselling where there was a lot of discussion on improving communications. One thing to note is that my wife is INCREDIBLY conflict averse. She comes from a family where expressing emotions is very much not encouraged. She told me that she has never seen her mother cry, for example. She on the other hand is innately more emotional than her sibiligs and parents. So she got really good a burying. As such, it has always been hard for me to really know how upset she is about a particular thing. She suppresses a lot. She will readily admit that her entire life she has taken a suboptimal outcome to avoid conflict or to avoid making another person unhappy. In any case, one day after 4 months of light counselling (once every other week) she announced to me “this is not working. Our therapist is planning on talking about our sex life next week, which I have no desire to do.” Notably, during the time she agreed to counselling, she was overtly going through the motions of reconnecting (pet names, “i love you” in response to my stating it, hugs (though no sex). After this announcement she became hostile. While we slept in the same bed, no physical contact, in fact she almost looks rigid in situations where we might ordinary embrace so that she can avoid doing so. Counselling stopped, and I started individual therapy. It really helped me realise that I had a overwhelming tendency to “flood” her when i don’t get what i want. I dropped all relationship talk. Stopped really lingering around - hard to do when you still sleep in the same bed! IN any case, just try to give her distance and agree with her on everything she would bring up.
Things improved a bit - over 4 months she became less angry, so I thought that progress was being made. Then one day she asked me what we were going to do about our housing since our rental was coming up. I looked at her sort of surprised, and then she suggested that we move into adjacent apartments. I was floored. She repeated that though I was being nicer, she still didn’t think that things were working. By being in adjacent apartments we would at least be able to co-parent our son. I was devastated since I thought we were on the road to reconciling, but here she was suggesting moving into separate apartments!
In any case, I pushed back on that point fairly strongly (saying that leases shouldn’t dictate life and death decisions like our relationship and our son’s future) and down to the wire, she very angrily renewed our lease at the last minute. Looking back on it, I am sure that only added to her mountain of resentment, but she hated the level of discord so much that she caved in. It is worth noting that she has started to use last minute decisions to avoid having to discuss contentious things (she has now gone with our son twice to see her parents and Ive been left to make up some excuse as to why I couldn’t come because in actuality she wanted to be alone, and my presence would “only stress her out").
I have been using DB coaching which has been amazing, but I think we are both stumped as to why my wife has not really changed her tune with regards to the thought “that this doesn’t really work” and seeking a way out of it. Its almost like she is so conflict averse, but at the same time so scared of being vulnerable to me that she stays stuck. I’ve be DBing the right things - my entire style of communication with her has been much better over the last 9 months. So i am at a loss of what is going on and what I can do to help move my relationship in the right direction. I do deeply love my wife and it hurts me a ton to see her angry and in pain. But I simply can accept divorce and even a separation scares the daylight out of me. This lease issue will recur - she said the last time that we could just try it for a few months and then if was not helping could move back in together, but I think she was just saying that to put me more at ease. It is clear that this is not just a bid for attention given that this has been going on for almost a year and a half, and that she hasn’t changed her tune on the fact she doesn’t see how this will work. On the other hand, she hasn’t taken the ring off, deleted Facebook posts and pictures or generally done anything to indicate covert action to separate. That could be just because of her extreme dislike in causing pain to me and my son. Please, help me understand what I can do to make things better?
So I have - in the last year I am in awesome physical shape and have seen a few entrepreneurial activities get funding. So things are great from the GAL point. My confusion stems from the fact that she's been in this suspended WAW situation for almost a year and a half. For six months I detached and didn't being up the relationship. Things improved on a day to day basis, but still no physical intimacy. Eventually she brought up the relationship on her own and was still stuck to the script that things aren't working and she feels that she can't change the feeling. So I'm at a loss - not talking about the relationship seemed to only bury the issue, and despite her acknowledging my changes (you are much nicer and approachable), it didn't seem to change her take on the situation. So it seems that I have no choice but to engage her on the relationship? If so, it can only be in bite sized chunks since she's so conflict averse....jeez this is very tough.
Another follow up question - does any of this sound like an A? I imagine a lot of it would, but for the fact that she has stuck around almost 2 years in this limbo. I did find her googling "married to the wrong man" on her iPad, but that could be neither here nor there. The biggest issue is that we have been sleeping in the same bed for almost two years as this has been going on (she attempted to move to the other room but that lasted one night.) and she did try to talk me into moving into another apartment when our lease came up. Sleeping in the same bed means just that however. No touching whatsoever.
How do you detach when you are stil going through the day to day motions with someone?
I have read DR, but it a given my experience with detaching (as discussed above), her position didn't change 4 months into it. AND she was the one who brought the relationship up again, and said that she still didn't think it worked.
It's almost like she has a shield around her and refuses to go back in. And unless she has a chance to engage on the relationship, she will just file away all of the changes as superficial attempts for me to get her back.
I think the tricky thing for me is to understand how GAL and detaching work in an almost walk away scenario. I saw a post here earlier that said the response in A situation is almost completely different then in a non-A situation: the difference between a 180 and a be-present-and-empathize approach. Thoughts?
Hey Pundit. I emapathise with your situation. Last July after drifting further aprt for about 2 years I had another one of my flare ups to which my wife responded "i cant do this anymore" WOW! i didnt see that one coming. I did everyting worng, begged pleaded promised to change blah blah. So we carried on. And i did change. I became th model husband basically, not that i wasnt genearlly good before but now you'd e mad to leave me. So we carried on for months and things didnt really improve. i was still getting blamed for all the wrong in our marriage. There were glimpses of my old wife but i could see she was getting further away and nothing i did could stop it. Then D_day. just over a week ago. I did suspect for a very long time but i decided to find out for sure. She has been PA with her business partner for 6months + So you see, my efforts were futile. She had already gone. She loves me, love our family but she is in the fog getting emotionally fed somewhere else and to her that means happiness and is more important than anything else. Now im not saying your wife is having and affair but what you see on these boards is that they all do the same things. Its like they all read the same script. For a woman it not about the sex or physical closeness, its about the emotional conection she makes. Over time that drifts with your partner as life takes over. At some point they just switch off. You need to try and work on you. You can only control you. do stuff with you kids, do your own hobbies, get out with friends. It is very hard i know especially while under same roof DBing isnt so much about saving your marriage as it is about saving yourself. If you become a better more confident attractive person you will feel better about yourself. Will that get your wifes attention? maybe. If not you have become a better person so you can continue in life. Read the posts on here. Some inspirational stuff where people have turned their lives around with or with their spouse.
Keep posting.
Me:40 W:35 D:8 T:13 M:10 WAW: 7/14 PA Discovered: 1/15 at least 6 months Moved out and moved on
SRD, thanks so much for sharing. I know it is devastating to find out about the PA. If there is a silver lining (and admittedly a very very small one), it would seem at least you get a sense of cause-effect. Really sorry to hear about that.
For me, I feel that I am stuck because she is stuck. I totally get the DR principles of detach and GAL....the problem is that from what I understand, my 'correct' response is somewhat dependent on the cause of my wife's unhappiness. If she is NOT having an PA or an EA, then I should stay engaged and try to show her love. On the other hand if she has already gone, as a result of a PA or EA, the 'correct' approach is to 180. Quite different approaches.
As I mentioned above, I have asked my wife on two or three different occasions if there was somebody else. She has always said 'no' - and she is a very bad liar. I know the boards are filled tons of anecdotes of significant others who one could never ever imagine to be able to lie or cheat, and then are revealed to being able to do so. Still, its just tough to see how it would really be possible, given that we live abroad and the circumstances of our daily lives. Of course, "where there's a will there's a way" but it just doesn't seem to fit.
I guess I am just really struggling with the idea of being a "confident, attractive person" based on the points i make above. Being emotionally vulnerable is key in loving relationships, and unless I am certain she is really gone, how am i supposed to act?
Considering your treatment of your W during the M, I could see her acting the same toward you even if she wasn't in an A. You killed the feelings she had for you. How long have you been M? And you expect 9 months to fix it? What exactly have you been doing to work on being a better man?
Becoming a better man is the root to repairing damage. That, plus a lot of time. If you have seen absolutely no progress in two years, you need to take a closer look at your plan.
Have you set personal improvement goals? Not about her, but you.
Are you getting a life? If so, what are you doing?
I am going to copy and past a description of DBing detaching. Read it carefully b/c it will help you understand that detaching is not so much about the physical pulling away as it is other things.
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures. _________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Wow, thanks guys. This is all very helpful. On the questions of what I have done so far:
1. Received individual therapy trying to break me out of my anxiety cycle. I know now that i tend to be neurotic about things and take out my anxieties on the people I know and love. The individual therapy was truly a bolt of blue for me - i never really knew that i was doing such things.
2. Stopping 'flooding' her. Another huge realisation was that when i want getting what i wanted, I would instictively flood her into submission - right along John Gottman's points. Wow, also a huge realisation for me. I also can trace this to my mother who has been flooding my father my entire life. He, however, is an unnaturally calm man who can diffuse any tension. My wife is not.
3. Focusing on simply being supportive without expecting anything in return. I tend to talk a lot and dominate conversation. I now will just 'stay with her' and continue to ask questions to tease more from her. Working on the friendship.
4. Bringing up the elephant in the room - the biggest issue is the simple lack of emotional safety in the relationship. She is particularly difficult to read on this point because she tends to be so conflict averse.
Still it is very tough. For example, because of her conflict aversion she waited until the last minute to bring up wanting to travel with our son to see her family in the US. Nothing unusual about that, but she was adamant in not wanting me to come along. This of course hurt me very deeply (yes - i should have detached as per the definition above, but the fact that she cornered me with the request made it particularly difficult). She also suggested that I go alone with my son to see my parents.To this I simply couldn't accept and pushed back on her. So she went to her parents alone and is now here with me and my parents. All seems fine on the surface, but I don't really know what she is feeling/thinking.
So on it goes. Yes, 9 months of really focused changes on my part is not long, but I fear that we are approaching 2 years since she was last affectionate to me. She did get away to see a friend of hers twice during this trip who was divorced, which of course causes me concern. But I can't control her actions, only my responses to hers. Question: at what point do my responses come across as being a 'doormat' rather than putting up boundaries? Clearly an A is not tolerable, but what about her wanting to distance herself from me? How do i deal with things that are acceptable and things that are not?
it is interesting - we did have a flare up right before this trip and she stuck to the standard refrain - "this is not working and I don't think i can change this feeling" but for the first time, she drilled down deeper and said "the problem is that I will always do things that I don't want to because I would rather be unhappy than hurt others, but you always feel like you have to win or at least eek out something that works for you. This will always leave me unhappy"
That was a big deal for her since she has only kept the surface analysis and the mantra of "things not working" or that "there were always problems" etc. Not all that helpful.
Yes, I am very much guilty of being competitive and non-supportive in the past (as I stated in my intro piece). How do i project that now is different? I truly do not look at my life like that anymore. And I have tried to just demonstrate that through acts, but it seems that just acting out the changes have not been enough, since she still bring ups the doubts and questions.Or course talking about it only creates resistance. So what to do???
Would love thoughts on this from the forum. Thanks again.
Yes, I am very much guilty of being competitive and non-supportive in the past (as I stated in my intro piece). How do i project that now is different? I truly do not look at my life like that anymore. And I have tried to just demonstrate that through acts, but it seems that just acting out the changes have not been enough, since she still bring ups the doubts and questions.Or course talking about it only creates resistance. So what to do???
She must be a very sensitive lady, and selfless, if she is willing to sacrifice her happiness rather than hurt someone else. Being sensitive must have brought her a lot of pain over time. On the other hand, if there have been true changes made in you, she should be able to see those results without you being so concerned as to how to project it.
Many times a newcomer will be told to fake his changes until it really happens. Perhaps she senses you faking it, or as you said "acting out" the changes. This is not uncommon for the WAS to doubt the authenticity of the LBS's changes/improvements. You have to admit that it could well appear it is a gimmick to win back the WAS.
Each time she may see you backslide in an area you are working on, it reinforces her believe you won't stick with the self improvements.
Can you tell us specifically which changes are the main concern? Can you tell us more about the changes you made?
It is great that IC has been so helpful. Are you still going?
Quote:
Bringing up the elephant in the room - the biggest issue is the simple lack of emotional safety in the relationship. She is particularly difficult to read on this point because she tends to be so conflict averse.
Could you explain this more? Are you saying you have stopped bringing up the elephant in the room?
She is the one who feels emotionally unsafe?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks so much for your insights so to answer your questions:
1. There was a time when we would argue, and her biggest complaint was that "this is not about you, its about me!" and that would be a common refrain. Essentially, she would have a problem (that may or may not have even involved me) and hearing her vent, I would somehow manage to find something that offended me (even in situations that were not at all directly applicable to me). I would then get upset and protest about my offense and would flood her and that would be the end of the conversation as she would shut down and I would storm off. Of course, idiot me thought that I had 'won' the argument since she had sorted of shut down and figured that this was a winning strategy. Well, that no longer happens. And hasn't in a while.
To your point of her 'being able to see the changes' I wonder if that is why she is almost WAW and not a WAW at this point. She keeps saying "why did it take me having to say that this isn't working and can't see it ever working for you to be nice!" It goes to her physical mannerisms - we will still go on 'date nights' and if we are talking about our son or other items she will be warm and engaging. But in any situation where there might be any touching, she is beyond rigid. In a cab back from dinner two weeks ago she literally had her arms clutched around her bag folder around her chest. Almost like she was defending against a swarm of people on the subway....she will almost never touch me. I almost jerked my head off a few days ago when she put her hand on my arm in response to a question during dinner with other family!
As for the emotionally safety point - it wraps back to the issue I think she has felt her entire life. Her mother (who is a loving woman) has never cried in front of her and has always told her to "either fix something or walk away." Her sister is very much the same. She had a long term boy friend before she met me, but from her account "yeah, but I was never serious about him" It lasted six years. The bottom line is that she has never had someone in her life that she's been emotionally safe with. And clearly the things I have done up to this point are EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of the things that someone who is a 'giver' and extremely conflict averse should have to deal with. So yes, she is the one that feels emotionally unsafe. Its why she won't bring up unpleasantness until the last minute. Its why she hates talking about the relationship. But my fear is that the mixture of her conflict aversion and the past emotional damage is a recipe for a perfect hell - she can't move forward and neither can I.
I am not going to the IC because I have been using a DB coach, and I feel that the big breakthroughs that the IC helped me with are things that I am working on myself. First and foremost is the pathology of neurotic thinking and the massive fear that I have dealing with things that can massively affect my world. Like a divorce. I won't bring up the relationship because I can't bear to hear her say that she is leaving. This has become much better since the IC, but it is still there. I love the definition of 'detachment' posted above. But given my predicament I still don't know how to act. Burying her issues seems to do nothing but let them smolder. But talking about it yields only her default "things arent working, and I don't think they will" phrasing and she resists any discussion that tries to paint a different picture (i know that you can never guilt or convince someone to stay in a marriage, but anytime the conversation about the relationship is broached, it always goes down that direction"
She is fearful of leaving as well - when things are particularly heated, she will say "I don't know why you won't just let me go!" and I have repeated the Mantra and she just grows quiet. Its almost like she wants me to agree to separate to keep the guilt of her causing pain from affecting her.
What to do? How do I create an emotionally safe zone? How do we address the past wrongs/pains (it just so appears that I have to do something about this given that 4 months of me living 'a new and improved life' while making her less angry, did not change her request for me to move out (which I pushed back on and 'won', I guess.) One thing is that if this is a war of attrition, I would rather be miserable than deprive my son of a functioning two parent household (even the W will admit that we work very well together with regards to our son). He didn't do anything to deserve this, and the blood will not be on my hands if his world is torn apart.
She must be a very sensitive lady, and selfless, if she is willing to sacrifice her happiness rather than hurt someone else. Being sensitive must have brought her a lot of pain over time. On the other hand, if there have been true changes made in you, she should be able to see those results without you being so concerned as to how to project it.
Yes, this is my concern. I just don't know what to do. Perhaps I have become far too accommodating? I just don't know why she isn't picking up on it. I refer back to my message from yesterday in that her body language is the one thing that is STARKLY different - she will go out of her way to avoid touching me.
There are a few pointers that she defaults to when we get into a discussion about our relationship (which will involve her saying that it is not working and eventually drag me into justifying it, even though I know that strategy does not work):
"This just does not work. And I don't think my feeling about it will change"
"Wouldnt it be easier if we didn't have to keep dealing with the relationship all of the time? Accept that it doesn't work and not have to keep this up?"
"I think that you might have been better off with another woman who could minister to your needs better than I can/have"
"Nothing would change with regards to our child...we would commit in a separation agreement to always be in the same place. We would just be living in different physical buildings"
"I think that there have always been things wrong....even back when we were dating and just getting married. I just chose to ignore them."
"The difference between us and xxxx couple was that there was probably a time where for them, their relationship totally worked. A time where they were totally infatuated with each other. For us, however, I think that we've always had problems but I just chose to ignore them. We never had that honeymoon period. So when you show me these books that talk about remembering the good times, I don't think that works."
I've also seen some of the websites that she's googled, and the searches are "Married to the wrong man" Things like that.
Now I know the mantra is to believe very little of what a person says, but these points have been coming up fairly consistently for the last year. I pushed her specifically on the point about us not having had a good past and she conceded that a bit of that is her 'rewriting the narrative.' Still, I am gutted and though trying to stay strong, its very difficult. But, at the end of the day, I really can't see the reason why she is persisting on staying adrift. We actually have a great life together and most importantly a lovely 3 year old boy.
I am passed believing this is just a phase to punish me, and I believe that she really does want to leave. But she wants to do so with the absolute least amount of acrimony as possible, as her guilt will make it very difficult for her to leave on her own. When I bring up what this would do to our son, she shuts down, for example. And despite trying to pretend it will be alright, she knows that in comparison to what will harm more, excess sugar intake (her current crusade) is nothing compared to what a divorce will do to him, even though she puts on a brave face to pretend otherwise. She won't even touch papers/books that talk about the damage that divorce does to kids, for example.
So I am lost. I can't quite 180, because she hasn't ACTUALLY pulled the trigger. A bit of emotional distance for 4 months (no hugs, future talk, relationship talk), improved her attitude, but didn't change her underlying thoughts on the relationship, which she brought up after I had dropped talking about it. ON the other hand, I can't quite be the over attentive doting husband because that does trigger her to more actively push me away.
So I am lost. I can't quite 180, because she hasn't ACTUALLY pulled the trigger.
She hasn't pulled the trigger? The woman wants to leave you! What on earth are you waiting on? What do you mean you can quite 180? Do you understand the 180 concept?
Okay, short version of how I see you and your W, based on your own description. I see you as a controller over your W. I also see you as a hothead. She can't have a discussion with you about the existing problems b/c you over react when she says anything that sounds critical of you. You get mad (or as you said, offended) and instead of continuing the discussion, you storm out.
Let me tell you something. I used to be the same way.....except I didn't storm off. My grown son and my sister stopped having any discussions with me that I might take the wrong way. In fact, my son would start out by saying, "Don't take this the wrong way". But guess what? My H tried to tell me I was hypersensitive. Still, I would over react every time! You see, you don't have to be M to the person in order to ruin a relationship. Some people will avoid that type of reaction by avoiding any serious discussions......or avoiding the person. This is a 180 you need to make immediately.
That alone could cause a woman such as your W to feel emotionally unsafe. She can't express her emotions or thought b/c of how you react. It takes away her freedom and right to say what she wants or needs to say. You controll her by storming off when you don't like what's being said. She gives up and stops trying.......and you think it has worked itself out, or she's calmed down, etc. The truth is you have been digging the marital grave deeper, b/c she has built resentment toward you and can't release it.
I cannot imagine having a mother like hers, but I suppose she was trying to make her strong, IDK. I find it very sad she has never felt emotionally safe in either R. You can't do anything about the past, but you can start today in changing yourself. Not controlling her, what she does or says, but yourself.
It is not your job to punish her, and it's certainly not your place to guilt her about anything.......much less to stay in this M with you. I understand the concern for your child, however, the only reason a couple should stay together is out of their undying love for each other. You can try to control the outcome, but you cannot control her feelings.
Yes, I can see your W hugging herself when you were riding in the cab. It's symbolic of the wall she has around her, protecting herself from you. A woman wants an emotional connection with the man before the physical one. She does not feel the connection.
So, what is your plan? You need one, ya know. I suggest you get serious about some 180's on yourself and stop with the control issues.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So, what is your plan? You need one, ya know. I suggest you get serious about some 180's on yourself and stop with the control issues.
I was actually hoping to get some advice on what my plan should be from you helpful folks.
1. I have 180'd my control and reactivity around her. If she wants to do something I am generally 'fine' with it (so not over enthusiasticaly fake, but supportive). On the other hand, if she wants to do something that I cant agree on no matter how much I bend, I will be sure to softly 'complain' and state the reason why. Careful to never jump down to contempt, etc. No yelling, no storming out.
What other things should I be doing? I am practicing gratitude and projecting positivity when I am around her (super easy to do when I am playing with my son which is so life-affirming). But other than that, not sure. Clearly the 'fish under the table' needs to be addressed, but addressing it just leads to stonewalling. And not addressing it will eventually give rise to a convo about it when she brings it up.
GAL - I have cut back on social visits (seeing how me being out with the guys got me into this mess) so not sure me cutting her loose to go and be social every night is a great idea.
If she wants to do something I am generally 'fine' with it (so not over enthusiasticaly fake, but supportive). On the other hand, if she wants to do something that I cant agree on no matter how much I bend, I will be sure to softly 'complain' and state the reason why. Careful to never jump down to contempt, etc. No yelling, no storming out.
Can you explain a little more about what you mean here? Are you referring to something she would want the two of you doing together, or something just for herself?
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Clearly the 'fish under the table' needs to be addressed,
That's a new one, never heard that expression....but makes a lot sense.
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I have cut back on social visits (seeing how me being out with the guys got me into this mess) so not sure me cutting her loose to go and be social every night is a great idea.
Just be sure you don't swing too far the other way and start smothering her with your presence.
Since we don't know you that well, it will left up to you to look within yourself and think really deep about your behavior, attitudes, responses, etc. You know, we can say a lot without ever saying a word. Some men are bad to give negative signs when his W says something. Like rolling his eyes, or a heavy groan, etc. Do you ever do things like that?
Do you ever say things that are tacky, or a little disrespectful? Make her the butt of your jokes? Embarrass her in front of friend? Put her down or thrown off about her when talking to others? These are things you need to observe about yourself.
What about your tone of voice when you speak to her or respond to something she says or does? How do you sound when she calls you, or first sees you after work?
How is your mood at home in the evenings? What are you like when you first get home from work? A grouch? Angry? Happy to see her and ready to listen about her day? Interested in her daily life?
Would you say you treat her as an equal partner, or more like a parent-child relationship? Do you think you are smarter than she is? Do you expect her to give an account of most everything she does, bills, money spent for shopping, etc. Does she have to ask you for money to spend?
Does she act nervous and up-tight around you? What does her body language say (other than the time in the cab)? Is she stiff and unapproachable? Do you believe you had anything to with her being that way?
These are just a few things to help you get started, and hopefully, you'll remember some others.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Can you explain a little more about what you mean here? Are you referring to something she would want the two of you doing together, or something just for herself?
Actually for most things, though she tends to want to do things herself. For items done 'together' I am just thrilled she suggests it (going to our neighbourhood restaurant once a week, if I am lucky) so I do not push back, unless, which is very rare these days, it is something that I simply can't stand.
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I have cut back on social visits (seeing how me being out with the guys got me into this mess) so not sure me cutting her loose to go and be social every night is a great idea.
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Just be sure you don't swing too far the other way and start smothering her with your presence.
I try hard not to. No loitering, just hanging around. Even in our apartment, I will be either engaged with something or in a conversation with her. Otherwise, out doing work/busy with other things or in another room.
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Since we don't know you that well, it will left up to you to look within yourself and think really deep about your behavior, attitudes, responses, etc. You know, we can say a lot without ever saying a word. Some men are bad to give negative signs when his W says something. Like rolling his eyes, or a heavy groan, etc. Do you ever do things like that?
Absolutely not. I am thinking only positive thoughts around her and when i am talking to her. It makes for a stressful experience, sort of like I'm on a perpetual interview. Always a neutral or smile for an expression. Funny or softly spoken speech. And really try to engage her with questions to make her be the one that does the talking.
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Do you ever say things that are tacky, or a little disrespectful? Make her the butt of your jokes? Embarrass her in front of friend? Put her down or thrown off about her when talking to others? These are things you need to observe about yourself.
Absolutely positively not. Not in forever, if it ever really happened. Im on eggshells right now, trying hard not to seem that I am on eggshells (as natural as I can be given the situation...)
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What about your tone of voice when you speak to her or respond to something she says or does? How do you sound when she calls you, or first sees you after work?
Once again, very measured. Nice, composed. If anything it may appear I am trying too hard. But i go out of my way to not come across aggressively or in any way that would make her close down. Except when she comes to me and says "I just don't think this is working....etc" I can't help myself but try to push back. Its like Im fighting for my life. But only in those cases.
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How is your mood at home in the evenings? What are you like when you first get home from work? A grouch? Angry? Happy to see her and ready to listen about her day? Interested in her daily life?
Very cool and with a smile on my face. Trying hard not to look like I am too over eager. But definitely engaged and open to conversation.
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Would you say you treat her as an equal partner, or more like a parent-child relationship? Do you think you are smarter than she is? Do you expect her to give an account of most everything she does, bills, money spent for shopping, etc. Does she have to ask you for money to spend?
So this is a difficult one, because I'm sure (based on what I said earlier it is probably easy to see) that I did act that way earlier. I controlled the family finances, and was constantly riding her because she was not very good at managing the bills and controlling spending, which made me particuarly annoyed since i was the person earning the money. She would complain that we should be approaching this as a team, and I would shoot back that it is not much of a team if I was the only one doing the earning. Not helpful, I know. Since the blow up, however, I have tried to really ease up on this, and try to be collaborative on money issues. I still control the account and would rather share it, but that's a hard thing to do when she's threatening to walk out on me!
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Does she act nervous and up-tight around you? What does her body language say (other than the time in the cab)? Is she stiff and unapproachable? Do you believe you had anything to with her being that way?
I think this has become marginally better over time, but it is still odd. She will never touch me (except for that one time in the restaurant, i stated earlier which was shocking) She does act up-tight around me and is definitely stiff and unapproachable. We lie in the same bed but she will quickly roll over so that I can't hug her good night.
I do believe one of her main love language is touch because before she gave up she was constantly asking me to hug her and stroke her head, stroke her back, hold her hand, etc. But now its completely off. The drop off in touch is easily the biggest difference before and after. And now I am the one that is fearful of reaching out, because I don't want to witness her pulling away. Its almost like I need a few beers to be able to do it! (sad sad I know). But its emotionally painful to have someone you love pull away from you when you reach for them (now I know how she felt!). But I have made it a point to reach out and touch her on occasions - when we wake up, when she or I leave the house, When we go to bed. In most cases it is just a very quick stroke of the shoulder or lower back, but I am doing it consistently and it has been fast enough that she hasn't pulled away.
Thanks for answering all those questions. I really was trying to just give you some areas to think about your behavior in the past, since you said you wanted us to help you with it. It sounds as if you are working hard to improve. Now the trick will be to stick with it.
I see a lot of control issues. I refer back to this statement, as an example.
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If she wants to do something I am generally 'fine' with it
When I asked if that meant when she was talking about herself or both of you, you said usually it was about something she would do by herself. So, generally you are "fine" with it. Does she check with you, first? Sometimes a W may say to her H, "Is it okay with you if I (fill in the blank) ___________?" Which doesn't mean she is asking for permission, but it is a nice way to tell you what what she is going to do....and if there are some conflicting issues, then you can tell her. Perhaps you have acted as though she has to ask your permission or see how you feel about it?
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Quote: Would you say you treat her as an equal partner, or more like a parent-child relationship? Do you think you are smarter than she is? Do you expect her to give an account of most everything she does, bills, money spent for shopping, etc. Does she have to ask you for money to spend?
So this is a difficult one, because I'm sure (based on what I said earlier it is probably easy to see) that I did act that way earlier. I controlled the family finances, and was constantly riding her because she was not very good at managing the bills and controlling spending, which made me particuarly annoyed since i was the person earning the money. She would complain that we should be approaching this as a team, and I would shoot back that it is not much of a team if I was the only one doing the earning. Not helpful, I know. Since the blow up, however, I have tried to really ease up on this, and try to be collaborative on money issues. I still control the account and would rather share it, but that's a hard thing to do when she's threatening to walk out on me!
Whoa! I would have probably walked out right then & there! Maybe you should try changing positions sometime as see how that works for ya.
You have to do more than ease up. Do you get that? The only reason you have let up is b/c of the blowup and her threatening to walk out. You must conquer this control problem. Find some way that works for both of you regarding the spending, but "riding her" is not the way. There is a difference in leading and control. She is an adult and whether you feel she's an equal partner or not.....she most certainly is.
I can understand how, in some cases, the man has to control the account......if his W has no sense of money management. However, it is your attitude that matters to her the most. If she has to ask you for every dime she spends, it makes her feel like a child asking her daddy. I bet if she asks for XX amount of $, the first words out of your mouth is, "For what?" Do you have any idea how demeaning that can make a person feel?
Maybe it was how your own father ran his home, IDK, but if you don't want to end up in divorce court, you need to loosen the reigns a lot more.
These answers you gave sound really good, however, she is not going to buy it hook, line and sinker. She is just waiting to when you backslide. She believes it's all a ploy to win her back. You know what that means for you, right? You can never go back to your old ways.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
These answers you gave sound really good, however, she is not going to buy it hook, line and sinker. She is just waiting to when you backslide. She believes it's all a ploy to win her back. You know what that means for you, right? You can never go back to your old ways. wink
This is the crux of my problem. I don't know what I can do to convince her of the changes. I keep hearing from these forums and all of the books that I have read that you can't be doing these things to win her back - but its a bit of a catch 22. Of course I want to win her back, but of course these changes are bigger than her. I get the point regarding patience, but what do you do when you feel that we are literally stuck at a stalemate?
I read that usually when men leave a relationship, it is for another relationship. However for a WAW, when they leave, their minds are made up. That's the frustrating part - she has her script and has stuck to it - "this doesn't work...." At the same time, she really want us to be civil to each other because she can't bear the thought of her being the cause of the massive disruption to our son, etc. She doesn't want to be vulnerable with me.
Are there real life stories of people that have managed to save their relationships - men saving a walk away wife - by just holding out and staying the course? Or is it all a pipe dream? It is what it is - if thats the case and this 180ing is really just for me to move on, I have to accept reality. But hope can be an incredibly painful thing.....
Yes there have been a number of us who have been able to save their marriages from a WAW. You need to have patience in your own sitch. And you can't be making these changes just to get her back, even just reading what you're doing sounds insincere.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I don't know what I can do to convince her of the changes
You can't convince her through talking. "Why can't you believe that I have really changed?"
The only way she will be convinced is to see you live the changes day in and day out. Over time, when she sees the improvements stuck, then she will accept they are authentic.
A lot of men get focused on doing something that will win her back, and once they get her back.....then changes he made stop. He feels he has won and stops trying. Then the M is back in the same trouble.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks for the tough love and honesty. What I am sharing with you all are my inner frustrations; the changes I am making are completely sincere. Another huge driver for the changes is my son. In a fit of inconvenient timing, I came to my personal crisis point when my wife stopped reaching for me and my infant son started to connect with me (right before the age of 2). My wife doesn't believe that it wasn't just her closing me out that made me want to change; but it is the truth. I had become an angry and unhappy person, and with this young person sitting there totally helpless, reaching for me, man it made me want to change. It was a wake up call (reinforced by my wife closing me out); no way was I going to subject this child to an emotional roller coaster - my relationship with him was something that is totally within my control.
The irony was that I had thought that I didn't want a child and I was never great with kids before; but the minute he started to really speak and engage, I saw a different world. And if for no other reason, I want to be a better person because of him. He deserves the best and I have to power to give it to him.
So, what I am sharing with regards to changes and queries about how I can get through to my wife are not insincere changes meant to only win her back, but more managing my expectations with regards to understanding how long it took for some of you all to make progress. I am in it for the long haul, as long as she is willing, since with my son in the picture I will never 'backslide.' It is simply not an option - I don't want to be an angry, suspicious, controlling person. And I won't be.
Are there real life stories of people that have managed to save their relationships - men saving a walk away wife - by just holding out and staying the course?
Yes, there have been many over the years. I am not good about remembering names, but Mr. Bond, for one, held out a looooong time. Starsky is another man who had a WAW in an A. There is Jack3Beans who is still around. Most people leave the board after their M has been saved, but a few of us have stuck around. In recent years there was Coach, Robx, Allen, & Denver, just to name a few.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Somehow Pundit, I think you're not seeing the whole dynamic. Just an instinct on my part - hard to put into words why exactly.
Reading your thread, it almost seems like she wants you to be the one to end it. As if she wants to avoid being that person herself. If you really want to save your relationship, that may be a good thing. Or it may not. Too early to tell.
I think it's clear what you want. I have no idea from your posts what she wants though. The clues to that may be in the past and she may not be willing to bring them up now. Or even really know right now.
Some questions: What about you are you willing to change? I mean deep down, what's important to keep and what is not about YOU? With or without her in your life?
What is it you want for her? What does that look like to you?
And Sandi's right - newcomers might give you more feedback.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
That's a new one, never heard that expression....but makes a lot sense.
