Considering your treatment of your W during the M, I could see her acting the same toward you even if she wasn't in an A. You killed the feelings she had for you. How long have you been M? And you expect 9 months to fix it? What exactly have you been doing to work on being a better man?
Becoming a better man is the root to repairing damage. That, plus a lot of time. If you have seen absolutely no progress in two years, you need to take a closer look at your plan.
Have you set personal improvement goals? Not about her, but you.
Are you getting a life? If so, what are you doing?
I am going to copy and past a description of DBing detaching. Read it carefully b/c it will help you understand that detaching is not so much about the physical pulling away as it is other things.
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures. _________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Wow, thanks guys. This is all very helpful. On the questions of what I have done so far:
1. Received individual therapy trying to break me out of my anxiety cycle. I know now that i tend to be neurotic about things and take out my anxieties on the people I know and love. The individual therapy was truly a bolt of blue for me - i never really knew that i was doing such things.
2. Stopping 'flooding' her. Another huge realisation was that when i want getting what i wanted, I would instictively flood her into submission - right along John Gottman's points. Wow, also a huge realisation for me. I also can trace this to my mother who has been flooding my father my entire life. He, however, is an unnaturally calm man who can diffuse any tension. My wife is not.
3. Focusing on simply being supportive without expecting anything in return. I tend to talk a lot and dominate conversation. I now will just 'stay with her' and continue to ask questions to tease more from her. Working on the friendship.
4. Bringing up the elephant in the room - the biggest issue is the simple lack of emotional safety in the relationship. She is particularly difficult to read on this point because she tends to be so conflict averse.
Still it is very tough. For example, because of her conflict aversion she waited until the last minute to bring up wanting to travel with our son to see her family in the US. Nothing unusual about that, but she was adamant in not wanting me to come along. This of course hurt me very deeply (yes - i should have detached as per the definition above, but the fact that she cornered me with the request made it particularly difficult). She also suggested that I go alone with my son to see my parents.To this I simply couldn't accept and pushed back on her. So she went to her parents alone and is now here with me and my parents. All seems fine on the surface, but I don't really know what she is feeling/thinking.
So on it goes. Yes, 9 months of really focused changes on my part is not long, but I fear that we are approaching 2 years since she was last affectionate to me. She did get away to see a friend of hers twice during this trip who was divorced, which of course causes me concern. But I can't control her actions, only my responses to hers. Question: at what point do my responses come across as being a 'doormat' rather than putting up boundaries? Clearly an A is not tolerable, but what about her wanting to distance herself from me? How do i deal with things that are acceptable and things that are not?
it is interesting - we did have a flare up right before this trip and she stuck to the standard refrain - "this is not working and I don't think i can change this feeling" but for the first time, she drilled down deeper and said "the problem is that I will always do things that I don't want to because I would rather be unhappy than hurt others, but you always feel like you have to win or at least eek out something that works for you. This will always leave me unhappy"
That was a big deal for her since she has only kept the surface analysis and the mantra of "things not working" or that "there were always problems" etc. Not all that helpful.
Yes, I am very much guilty of being competitive and non-supportive in the past (as I stated in my intro piece). How do i project that now is different? I truly do not look at my life like that anymore. And I have tried to just demonstrate that through acts, but it seems that just acting out the changes have not been enough, since she still bring ups the doubts and questions.Or course talking about it only creates resistance. So what to do???
Would love thoughts on this from the forum. Thanks again.
Yes, I am very much guilty of being competitive and non-supportive in the past (as I stated in my intro piece). How do i project that now is different? I truly do not look at my life like that anymore. And I have tried to just demonstrate that through acts, but it seems that just acting out the changes have not been enough, since she still bring ups the doubts and questions.Or course talking about it only creates resistance. So what to do???
She must be a very sensitive lady, and selfless, if she is willing to sacrifice her happiness rather than hurt someone else. Being sensitive must have brought her a lot of pain over time. On the other hand, if there have been true changes made in you, she should be able to see those results without you being so concerned as to how to project it.
Many times a newcomer will be told to fake his changes until it really happens. Perhaps she senses you faking it, or as you said "acting out" the changes. This is not uncommon for the WAS to doubt the authenticity of the LBS's changes/improvements. You have to admit that it could well appear it is a gimmick to win back the WAS.
Each time she may see you backslide in an area you are working on, it reinforces her believe you won't stick with the self improvements.
Can you tell us specifically which changes are the main concern? Can you tell us more about the changes you made?
It is great that IC has been so helpful. Are you still going?
Quote:
Bringing up the elephant in the room - the biggest issue is the simple lack of emotional safety in the relationship. She is particularly difficult to read on this point because she tends to be so conflict averse.
Could you explain this more? Are you saying you have stopped bringing up the elephant in the room?
She is the one who feels emotionally unsafe?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks so much for your insights so to answer your questions:
1. There was a time when we would argue, and her biggest complaint was that "this is not about you, its about me!" and that would be a common refrain. Essentially, she would have a problem (that may or may not have even involved me) and hearing her vent, I would somehow manage to find something that offended me (even in situations that were not at all directly applicable to me). I would then get upset and protest about my offense and would flood her and that would be the end of the conversation as she would shut down and I would storm off. Of course, idiot me thought that I had 'won' the argument since she had sorted of shut down and figured that this was a winning strategy. Well, that no longer happens. And hasn't in a while.
To your point of her 'being able to see the changes' I wonder if that is why she is almost WAW and not a WAW at this point. She keeps saying "why did it take me having to say that this isn't working and can't see it ever working for you to be nice!" It goes to her physical mannerisms - we will still go on 'date nights' and if we are talking about our son or other items she will be warm and engaging. But in any situation where there might be any touching, she is beyond rigid. In a cab back from dinner two weeks ago she literally had her arms clutched around her bag folder around her chest. Almost like she was defending against a swarm of people on the subway....she will almost never touch me. I almost jerked my head off a few days ago when she put her hand on my arm in response to a question during dinner with other family!
As for the emotionally safety point - it wraps back to the issue I think she has felt her entire life. Her mother (who is a loving woman) has never cried in front of her and has always told her to "either fix something or walk away." Her sister is very much the same. She had a long term boy friend before she met me, but from her account "yeah, but I was never serious about him" It lasted six years. The bottom line is that she has never had someone in her life that she's been emotionally safe with. And clearly the things I have done up to this point are EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of the things that someone who is a 'giver' and extremely conflict averse should have to deal with. So yes, she is the one that feels emotionally unsafe. Its why she won't bring up unpleasantness until the last minute. Its why she hates talking about the relationship. But my fear is that the mixture of her conflict aversion and the past emotional damage is a recipe for a perfect hell - she can't move forward and neither can I.
I am not going to the IC because I have been using a DB coach, and I feel that the big breakthroughs that the IC helped me with are things that I am working on myself. First and foremost is the pathology of neurotic thinking and the massive fear that I have dealing with things that can massively affect my world. Like a divorce. I won't bring up the relationship because I can't bear to hear her say that she is leaving. This has become much better since the IC, but it is still there. I love the definition of 'detachment' posted above. But given my predicament I still don't know how to act. Burying her issues seems to do nothing but let them smolder. But talking about it yields only her default "things arent working, and I don't think they will" phrasing and she resists any discussion that tries to paint a different picture (i know that you can never guilt or convince someone to stay in a marriage, but anytime the conversation about the relationship is broached, it always goes down that direction"
She is fearful of leaving as well - when things are particularly heated, she will say "I don't know why you won't just let me go!" and I have repeated the Mantra and she just grows quiet. Its almost like she wants me to agree to separate to keep the guilt of her causing pain from affecting her.
What to do? How do I create an emotionally safe zone? How do we address the past wrongs/pains (it just so appears that I have to do something about this given that 4 months of me living 'a new and improved life' while making her less angry, did not change her request for me to move out (which I pushed back on and 'won', I guess.) One thing is that if this is a war of attrition, I would rather be miserable than deprive my son of a functioning two parent household (even the W will admit that we work very well together with regards to our son). He didn't do anything to deserve this, and the blood will not be on my hands if his world is torn apart.
She must be a very sensitive lady, and selfless, if she is willing to sacrifice her happiness rather than hurt someone else. Being sensitive must have brought her a lot of pain over time. On the other hand, if there have been true changes made in you, she should be able to see those results without you being so concerned as to how to project it.
Yes, this is my concern. I just don't know what to do. Perhaps I have become far too accommodating? I just don't know why she isn't picking up on it. I refer back to my message from yesterday in that her body language is the one thing that is STARKLY different - she will go out of her way to avoid touching me.
There are a few pointers that she defaults to when we get into a discussion about our relationship (which will involve her saying that it is not working and eventually drag me into justifying it, even though I know that strategy does not work):
"This just does not work. And I don't think my feeling about it will change"
"Wouldnt it be easier if we didn't have to keep dealing with the relationship all of the time? Accept that it doesn't work and not have to keep this up?"
"I think that you might have been better off with another woman who could minister to your needs better than I can/have"
"Nothing would change with regards to our child...we would commit in a separation agreement to always be in the same place. We would just be living in different physical buildings"
"I think that there have always been things wrong....even back when we were dating and just getting married. I just chose to ignore them."
"The difference between us and xxxx couple was that there was probably a time where for them, their relationship totally worked. A time where they were totally infatuated with each other. For us, however, I think that we've always had problems but I just chose to ignore them. We never had that honeymoon period. So when you show me these books that talk about remembering the good times, I don't think that works."
I've also seen some of the websites that she's googled, and the searches are "Married to the wrong man" Things like that.
Now I know the mantra is to believe very little of what a person says, but these points have been coming up fairly consistently for the last year. I pushed her specifically on the point about us not having had a good past and she conceded that a bit of that is her 'rewriting the narrative.' Still, I am gutted and though trying to stay strong, its very difficult. But, at the end of the day, I really can't see the reason why she is persisting on staying adrift. We actually have a great life together and most importantly a lovely 3 year old boy.
I am passed believing this is just a phase to punish me, and I believe that she really does want to leave. But she wants to do so with the absolute least amount of acrimony as possible, as her guilt will make it very difficult for her to leave on her own. When I bring up what this would do to our son, she shuts down, for example. And despite trying to pretend it will be alright, she knows that in comparison to what will harm more, excess sugar intake (her current crusade) is nothing compared to what a divorce will do to him, even though she puts on a brave face to pretend otherwise. She won't even touch papers/books that talk about the damage that divorce does to kids, for example.
So I am lost. I can't quite 180, because she hasn't ACTUALLY pulled the trigger. A bit of emotional distance for 4 months (no hugs, future talk, relationship talk), improved her attitude, but didn't change her underlying thoughts on the relationship, which she brought up after I had dropped talking about it. ON the other hand, I can't quite be the over attentive doting husband because that does trigger her to more actively push me away.
So I am lost. I can't quite 180, because she hasn't ACTUALLY pulled the trigger.
She hasn't pulled the trigger? The woman wants to leave you! What on earth are you waiting on? What do you mean you can quite 180? Do you understand the 180 concept?
Okay, short version of how I see you and your W, based on your own description. I see you as a controller over your W. I also see you as a hothead. She can't have a discussion with you about the existing problems b/c you over react when she says anything that sounds critical of you. You get mad (or as you said, offended) and instead of continuing the discussion, you storm out.
Let me tell you something. I used to be the same way.....except I didn't storm off. My grown son and my sister stopped having any discussions with me that I might take the wrong way. In fact, my son would start out by saying, "Don't take this the wrong way". But guess what? My H tried to tell me I was hypersensitive. Still, I would over react every time! You see, you don't have to be M to the person in order to ruin a relationship. Some people will avoid that type of reaction by avoiding any serious discussions......or avoiding the person. This is a 180 you need to make immediately.
That alone could cause a woman such as your W to feel emotionally unsafe. She can't express her emotions or thought b/c of how you react. It takes away her freedom and right to say what she wants or needs to say. You controll her by storming off when you don't like what's being said. She gives up and stops trying.......and you think it has worked itself out, or she's calmed down, etc. The truth is you have been digging the marital grave deeper, b/c she has built resentment toward you and can't release it.
I cannot imagine having a mother like hers, but I suppose she was trying to make her strong, IDK. I find it very sad she has never felt emotionally safe in either R. You can't do anything about the past, but you can start today in changing yourself. Not controlling her, what she does or says, but yourself.
It is not your job to punish her, and it's certainly not your place to guilt her about anything.......much less to stay in this M with you. I understand the concern for your child, however, the only reason a couple should stay together is out of their undying love for each other. You can try to control the outcome, but you cannot control her feelings.
Yes, I can see your W hugging herself when you were riding in the cab. It's symbolic of the wall she has around her, protecting herself from you. A woman wants an emotional connection with the man before the physical one. She does not feel the connection.
So, what is your plan? You need one, ya know. I suggest you get serious about some 180's on yourself and stop with the control issues.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So, what is your plan? You need one, ya know. I suggest you get serious about some 180's on yourself and stop with the control issues.
I was actually hoping to get some advice on what my plan should be from you helpful folks.
1. I have 180'd my control and reactivity around her. If she wants to do something I am generally 'fine' with it (so not over enthusiasticaly fake, but supportive). On the other hand, if she wants to do something that I cant agree on no matter how much I bend, I will be sure to softly 'complain' and state the reason why. Careful to never jump down to contempt, etc. No yelling, no storming out.
What other things should I be doing? I am practicing gratitude and projecting positivity when I am around her (super easy to do when I am playing with my son which is so life-affirming). But other than that, not sure. Clearly the 'fish under the table' needs to be addressed, but addressing it just leads to stonewalling. And not addressing it will eventually give rise to a convo about it when she brings it up.
GAL - I have cut back on social visits (seeing how me being out with the guys got me into this mess) so not sure me cutting her loose to go and be social every night is a great idea.
