To Stir Or Not to Stir That Pot

[Gerda]

Thought I would start a new thread on this but did just try to post this post on another thread --

A lurker posting at last. What do you think of this whole Stirring the Pot notion? It seems from Wonka's posts (I have read many) that when MLC is in the fog, no fork, knife or spoon could stir him out of it. Once the fog lifted, stirring was not needed.

Folks who know -- Is this accurate or do you believe in stirring the pot? I am content to wait on my in-house MLC'er as long as it take, but the one thing that is unbearable to me is my 9-year old son is totally unraveling, and I don't know how to deal with it. I pray a lot and try to give this over to the Lord too, but it's impossible to be a mother to him and my 5-yr old daughter when he is always in a mad rage. And I have to be, my in-house MLC H barely talks to the kids, let alone is a father to them. So though I never say anything at all to my husband relating to our relationship, I keep thinking about stirring the pot in regards to my son. Mostly I conclude that it would be pointless, if I say anything to him about anything relating to him or relationships, he goes vacant or furiously says he can't talk about it, etc. But after the daily few hours of my son calling me a f-ing b-tch and an a--hole, idiot, I hate you, etc., I start to lose my resolve. I usually run-don't-walk to the church at the corner to cry for a while and get it together to return so that I won't start a conversation that is pointless.

So I wanted to get a discussion going on the pros and cons of pot stirring. My husband is I am pretty sure in the crazy cycling of withdrawal/depression stages, 2 or 3 years after the MLC started, one year after things got crazy, bomb drop, etc.

[Cadet]

My husband is I am pretty sure in the crazy cycling of withdrawal/depression stages, 2 or 3 years after the MLC started, one year after things got crazy, bomb drop, etc.

Welcome to the board.
I will be honest but I don't believe he is stuck in withdrawal/depression stage based on what you have posted so far.

Why do you think that?

My guess he is still escaping and avoiding.(Replay)

Tell us more of your story.

[kml]

But after the daily few hours of my son calling me a f-ing b-tch and an a--hole, idiot, I hate you, etc., I start to lose my resolve.

I'm sorry - this is your 9 year old saying these things to you? If so, I assume he learned these things from his father? In which case your husband is abusive and you need to get you and the kids out of that house NOW.

Why would you even allow your son to say these things to you for hours at a time? Do you think he's just reacting to the tension at home, or does he blame you for keeping them in the home with the abusive husband, or does he somehow believe your H that YOU are the cause of the marital problems?

This is serious and must be nipped in the bud or your son will grow up to be an abuser of women also. Please contact a shelter or someplace that works with abused women. This is not garden variety MLC and you need to get out of there with the kids.

[job]

Please provide a run down as to what may have triggered the mlc. Generally 18-24 months prior to the bomb drop something happened to him, be it a promotion, firing, accident, health issue, death of family, friend or co-worker, etc. As for the time line, toss that out! He will take as long as it takes him to get through his crisis. Some are 5 years, 7 years, 10 years or longer and then there are some that remain stuck for life.

Just from what you've posted, I'm w/Cadet and it sounds like he's still acting out in replay.

As for your child cursing and acting out, I'm w/kml, this has got to cease and the sooner the better. Your home situation isn't working out for your children and you. It's time to consider either booting him out or you and the children leave. No child should be subject to such stuff and then turns around and curses and acts out from what he's seen and heard. You might even want to consider some counseling for child.

[Gerda]

Thank you for these replies, everyone. I realize that I am probably not ready to post here because I am a very devout Christian and have no plans ever to break up our family. My husband is awful but he is not dangerous. And my posting name is Gerda from the story The Ice Queen. Gerda walks through the snow barefoot for years, faithful to the end for her childhood love, whose heart has been frozen by the Ice Queen. (It's what Frozen the movie is based on, but it's much much better!)

http://www.online-literature.com/hans_christian_andersen/972/

I am navigating my son's rage and we have our good days and bad days; I wrote that on a very bad day. My husband does spew at me but not anything like that, it's all the usual MLC stuff blaming me for everything and misremembering our life together. My son is a beautiful boy and I have no fears for him in that regard, he is just very very angry and I am a safe person to express it to.

My husband is following the MLC script to a T, but he is an in-house prodigal, has never left us and in fact has never really slept away. I am not sure about affairs in general but the main one was/is EA, I think she lives somewhere else and I am not sure he ever saw her in person, all texts and phone calls (endlessly). There may have been other things, I am not sure. He is a classic case -- terrible abusive childhood with the world's meanest father, running away from home, etc., then our years together (we met when I was 23, now am 43 and he is 48) with the usual ups and downs, and certainly I made many mistakes but nothing to warrant this. Then we had two really awful years with the business we own together, terrible financial crises, and years of weight gain for him leading to a huge health scare, he thought he was going to die, endless tests for cancer but he was okay. He started losing weight and eating right, and pulling away from me, and the rest is the usual story of MLC except that we own a business together and I was homeschooling our kids, so there was no escape or way to have boundaries in so many areas. He went full in with secret life, drunk all the time, going out with who knows who, training for marathons, lost 60 pounds, got hair implants, etc. He slowly pulled totally away from us but lives with us and uses his dissertation as the reason -- "I told you this family was going to suffer if I was going to finally get my doctorate," and blaming us for the fact that he never finished it, etc. And then in a prophetic dream a voice told me where to touch my breast and i opened my eyes and touched that exact spot and found the lump. I had a mastectomy on one side. The day of the surgery was my happiest day in the last year because for 12 hours, I had my husband back. It was totally him, it was such a magical night though in the hospital, real love. But by the morning, he was pacing the room, was back to himself, and left town the next day to run a marathon. And when he got back I looked at his phone and saw hehad been texting OW while I was on the operating table. When confronted, followed that script of blaming me and saying he was so scared and he had no one else to turn to but was still kind of in clarity and agreed it was over with her and he wanted to be there for me. But this slowly faded, and he went back full in to the tunnel. I escaped chemo and continue my single mom duties.

I keep watching what I thought was depression/withdrawal but then sadly looking at his eye creams and endless purchases of whatever he wants and sneaking money off my credit cards or from the business, etc., and realize he must still be in replay. And the spew is bad, really bad, if I open that door even a tiny bit. Mostly, guided by faith and those tenets, I am patient and kind and living my own life as much as is possible. I pray constantly and that's where I cry my eyes out, am strong otherwise for the most part except for when I get it from my son for too long. But I guess I still started thinking we were moving ahead and hoping we were going to be entering the next stage, so I am sad to hear from you experts what I was secretly thinking already, that he is still in replay.

He went to his parents for a couple of weeks at end of Dec at my suggestion to work on his dissertation, and it was so awful with his father that he was almost himself on the phone in his longing to come home and telling me what was going on. He came home early to escape and was really nice the first day, and then back to the tunnel, the spew, the withdrawal.

He is so withdrawn and buried in his work that I keep thinking he is through replay. But I guess not. It's so depressing to think of how much longer I have to go. I would say that we're in year three if I really think about the troubles in the first stages, but bomb drop was December 2013, that was when things got really weird and progressively more and more horrible.

I am thankful for this affliction, which brought me deeply to God. I don't think that would have happened otherwise. But some days I am so so so weary.

Love to you all, these boards keep me going when I need some secular confirmation that everything is "normal"! I must have read Wonka's posts on MLC a thousand times. I rely deeply on the daily e-mails from Charlayne Cares, could not have made it this far without them.

[job]

Gerda,
Some of them will have OM/OW and others will focus on work or some type of recreational activity. It sounds like your h had both the OW and now is focusing on work completely. I hate to say this, but you can't put a time limit on his replay actions nor on how long his MLC will last. It will take as long as it takes for him to face his childhood issues, accept what can or can't be changed and then grow up. Some come thru the crisis and others don't.

Do not attempt to stir the pot as the more you try to push, pull or fix him, the longer his crisis will be. Why? Because his focus will be on doing the exact opposite of what you want and his focus needs to be on himself and whatever he's doing. Stirring the pot just makes them more angry and determined that you and the marriage are the problem.

Yes, you may have seen the old h when you had surgery. The surgery snapped him back to reality for a very short period of time and we call that moments of clarity, but they are short lived. I'm sorry he wasn't more supportive during that time. They really can't deal w/illness, surgery or death very well. Mortality scares them and they have this "need" to run and try to recapture their youth, i.e., starting at the time where they were emotionally stunted in childhood. They feel that something is missing and they have to go back and find that missing link.

It's best to not try to focus so much on the stages. A watched pot never boils and that's very true. Put the ladle away and leave the pot to simmer. He needs lots of time and space to figure things out.

Your focus has to be on your son and try to help him navigate his growing up pains. Does your son have a male, other than his father, that he can talk to? If so, then it might be helpful for him to talk to that person. Maybe a counselor, coach or uncle could be a good "listening" partner for him. I can understand your son's anger. He sees his father is not acting properly and he's frustrated w/him. He hears him talking to you a certain way and that frustrates him. I know you are a safe place for him to land, but the anger concerns me w/respect to your son. He needs an outlet to release it and true, you are a safe person to express it to, but he also needs a physical outlet as well. That could be a sport or something such as walking, hiking, etc. This would allow him to work off that anger.

You have to step back and allow your h to find himself. This does not mean that you have to be a door mat and when he starts that nasty spewing, look him in the eye and tell him that when he calms down, that you will happy to listen to him and then walk away. Another good technique is when he starts spewing, change the subject, talk about the weather or something else...this stops them in their tracks.

Keep the focus on you and your son. Your h is on a journey of self discovery and it's going to take a long time. While he's off on that journey, it is a time of self discovery for you and your son. What plans do you and your son have for the days ahead? Maybe it's time to think of some fun and educational things to do.

[Cadet]

Gerda

I have now been studying MLC for 5 and a half years.
The fact that he never left the home, makes him into what I will call a low energy MLC'er or contact type.
The good news is that the high energy antics are not a wild, the bad news is that this type of MLC seems to take longer to resolve itself IMHO.
I also believe that the length of time may be tied to what age the childhood issue happened and how long it will take to grow up from that point in time, however that is only my own theory.

Job has given you good advice and explanation,
and I tried stirring the pot 5 years ago and it did not help.

My suggestion is to keep focusing on yourself and do nothing that will make this crisis any longer as it takes pretty much forever as it is.

[kml]

He is a classic case -- terrible abusive childhood with the world's meanest father, running away from home, etc.

My husband does spew at me but not anything like that, it's all the usual MLC stuff blaming me for everything and misremembering our life together. My son is a beautiful boy and I have no fears for him in that regard, he is just very very angry and I am a safe person to express it to.

I'm sorry, but hours of blatantly abusive spew at you is NOT just your son expressing his fears in a safe place. This is a boy who is being TAUGHT by his father's example that it is ok to devalue and blame the women in your life. THIS IS HOW ABUSERS ARE MADE. And the fact that you allow it to go on for hours just shows that you don't have healthy boundaries in this regard.

Also, the fact that your son is acting out in this way, shows that the situation at home is having a TERRIBLE effect on him. YOU may be strong enough to choose to sit through your H's spew, but subjecting your kids to this is another matter entirely.

Look, I was raised Catholic. The Catholic church does not oppose separation in cases of abuse. You don't have to divorce him or do anything at all legally. But if the situation isn't improving you may need to get your kids out of there until your H comes to his senses.

There's no guarantee if or when your H will come out of his MLC crisis. You can stand for him from a distance. And he very well may "hit bottom" and come out of it sooner if he has to deal with the reality of being separated from his family.

I know you're financially dependent on him, but it also sounds like he's being very irresponsible with money and charging up your credit cards in your name etc. You need to take steps to protect yourself financially, these MLCers can wreak incredible financial disaster.

Look - a good parent sets boundaries for their kids - they can't eat candy all day, tough the hot stove, (can't call their mother horrible names without being put in TIME OUT or some other consequences!!!). Similarly, you may need to set some healthy boundaries with your H - DBing is not just about being a doormat and letting someone treat you and your kids horribly.

[Gerda]

Job, I want to thank you for your very kind post full of practical advice too, and Cadet, for your kindly realism. It was very helpful to me and thinking about what you wrote has helped to recenter me. I was starting to think that we were moving to the last stages and I realize I have to accept that it could take a lot longer. I knew on some level that it was still replay but I was denying it to myself. And I have been lazy and confused lately about setting limits with my husband, sometimes I think I have to listen to him blaming me for the past because I have read so much about listening to them! But your post, Job, reminded me of the very easy and practical way to listen but limit. I know it seems simple but we forget in the moment!

Job, you are so right about having other men around. I have been on a search for a man and just the other night I think I found a nice teenager to play basketball with him. Thankfully he loves soccer and has gotten really into that this year, and the Coach is a great man. But for the most part, not having any man to fill in for his beloved father is the crisis for my son. No family at all to support me as far as uncles or cousins or grandpas, no one who understands my stand, and no men to fill in and be a friend to my boy during this time. He has counseling at his school and loves soccer, and we own a restaurant which is kind of like a family as far as staff, a few men there who are at least a little bit of a presence in his life, so I feel really lucky to have all those support systems -- and have to remind myself that I could be a lot more alone than I am!

And I would like to say that reading what you and Cadet wrote reminded me that I can't rush anything, and helped to remind me of my path right now, not to expect anything from my lost H but to just be there for my kids and to be so thankful that I can, however hard and confusing it is.

My husband was really nice to the kids the night after I wrote my first post, I even left the house and he was with them alone for an hour, sitting by the fire and playing. And my son and I shared some special alone-time the last couple days taking late night walks with our dog and talking as we always do at night after saying our prayers and shutting the light. And then tonight when I got back from work I found that my son had left me the most beautiful letter you can imagine, all about how he has decided to savor life and to enjoy it because it's too short not to. He even said that though it has been hard, he is trying to remember that everything happens for the Good, and that he has had some great moments in his life and wants to have a lot more with me and with the family. I just sat there sobbing at the table. I felt like my prayers had been answered. If I can figure out how to scan it and post it, I will, it is so touching and fills me with hope.

Thank you for the support!

[LiveNow]

Gerda - sounds like your son is a perfect candidate for a mentoring program. Do you have one nearby? Check with your city or school district. I've just become a mentor for a young girl, and the whole goal is to be a trusted, stable adult presence in the kid's life, someone who will listen to them and do fun things with them but not from a parenting perspective, more as a friend and sounding board. Check it out. But, I agree with KML - the yelling and name-calling should not be allowed to continue...whatever the circumstances. Please don't ignore it. If your son is as you otherwise describe, then it shouldn't take much to set him back on the right path, but the sooner the better. Best of luck to you.

[Gerda]

Thanks for taking the time to think about my situation. I think it's really hard to understand someone's entire life from reading two posts written on a really bad day; but needless to say, I am not financially dependent upon my husband. If anything, it's the complete opposite.

An MLC'er as far as I have read seems to follow a script, mine follows it to an almost laughable point as far as what he says and does -- I don't think mine is any different from any of the spouses I have read about on these forums, it's just more in my face because he is home. As hard as it is, I am glad he has never left us, I feel blessed when I am able to think clearly that something keeps him here. I think it's really easy to read a few lines about someone's life and think they are doing it all wrong; but in any event I appreciate that you took time out of your day to think about mine.

And I would highly recommend the book, "God and the World," if you were raised Catholic. It sounds like you aren't practicing any more, but that book is a very beautiful and profound discussion of the faith by the last pope, so you might find it interesting.

[Cadet]

I am not financially dependent upon my husband. If anything, it's the complete opposite.

I am glad to hear this, make sure you keep healthy boundaries in place and you are not financing an affair.

Unfortunately if he lives in the basement you might not get him to emerge for a very long time.

[kml]

Gerda - I'm glad to hear that you are not financially dependent.

Yes, I am no longer a practicing Catholic as I have issues with the church's stand on certain issues, but I continue to lead a spiritual life.

When I hear about your son saying those awful things to you over a protracted period of time, I have to assume that A) he has heard somebody else say similar things to you, presumably your husband, and B) you do not have sufficient authority as a parent to enact consequences that will make the behavior stop.

As the mother of 3 and someone who was married for 24 years, I cannot imagine EVER allowing my spouse or children to speak to me in that manner. So unless your son has Tourette's syndrome, I stand by my concern that he is learning these behaviors from your husband and that is a dangerous thing.

I'm also concerned about your son's latest statements to you. Frankly, a child that age should not be having to make statements like that. It concerns me that he may be seriously depressed, may even have been having suicidal thoughts (yes, it can happen at this age!). I'm not sure why the discord between you and your husband is having such a serious effect on your son (has he witnessed fights? Threats to leave? Is your H verbally abusive to the kids?). I would recommend getting counseling for your son, and trying your best to protect the kids from what is going on - make sure they don;t overhear you talking about the situation to friends, etc.

Also - I know from growing up Catholic that the stories of the martyr saints are powerful. But that can be a BAD example if it leads to codependent behavior without good boundaries. You need to develop the strength to lead.

A big part of DBing involves working on ourselves, fixing the legitimate (not the crazy) complaints that our spouse might have about us, letting go of the rope and working on creating a fabulous life FOR YOURSELF. Your spouse may or may not choose to become part of that life, but you will be ahead of the game either way.

Just remember, don't be a doormat. Standing and taking the high road are different than allowing abuse.

[Gerda]

Maybe I have missed something in my year of lurking here, but how would it be possible for any child to not be deeply affected by the MLC of his father?! My son's beloved, loving, caring, God-loving, totally involved father completely disappeared and in his place is a mean, God-hating, angry, totally uninvolved alien? My kids and I have lost the most wonderful man, the center of our existence, and in his place is this mean roommate-ish person who looks like him but isn't him! Of course I am worried about my son and desperately I am seeking counseling and mentors and soccer and so on, but the fact is that a tragedy hit our family. That is the reality. Just like it's a tragedy for the LBS that I have to slowly figure out how to face. Just like me, my son has to grieve until the time comes that we can heal, it's not like I can force my husband to come back for my son either. Whether my husband left the house or didn't, this would still be the case. If my son weren't sad, angry, struggling, questioning, THEN I would be really worried! Indeed, I think my own husband must have gone through something like this when he was young, with his own dad (alcoholic, nasty, vicious abusive man), but probably had to bottle everything up inside, and his mom was never an advocate for him so he had no one to believe in him, ran away from home, etc. That's the childhood-to-teen-years crisis that was re-triggered in his midlife.

If other moms have not had to face the unraveling of left-behind-kids, you are so lucky, and my situation is more intense than I realized. But I have read a lot about MLC men who were very close to their kids withdrawing from them as much as from their wives. In our case, he and my son were so devoted to each other, and he was less close to my daughter; and he is the most angry and the most withdrawn from me and my son while he is actually pretty good with my daughter, though still very uninvolved. But he will barely interact with my poor son but in an evening if I leave the house for a few minutes he will sit and draw fairies with my daughter from her how-to-draw fairies book, which seems shocking when juxtaposed with the rest of his behavior. I have told my son all about MLC so that he can understand that it's not about him or his fault,so that he can hold the hope that this is a temporary thing that will one day end, even though it will take a very long time.

But there is no easy answer for me, my son or any of us; it is a downright tragedy for our family just as it is for everyone in this forum.

[job]

Gerda,
Generally the MLCer will select one child out of the family to become close to. It is usually the child that will not question or challenge them about what they are doing. Also, the child that is "cast aside" may remind them of themselves when they were that age. It's difficult when children are treated this way and that's why it's very important that the LBS spend as much time w/the children, validate their feelings and reassure them that they are there for them. What your h is doing is reliving his past and yes, they do tend to act out like many of the people who hurt them, be it physical, emotional or mentally.

Eventually, when the MLCer begins to reconnect, he/she will begin to connect in the opposite order of the disconnection. Until that time, you will have to be "both" parents to your children. You have every right to be upset and concerned about your son. His world has been rocked. Continue to seek help for him. Get him involved in activities that will help him release that pent up anger and frustration.

Whatever you do, do not try to force your h to be there for your son. The more you push, the harder he will run in the opposite direction and yes, he'll resent not only you, but your son for trying to pull them together. MLC has to run it's natural course and unfortunately, there is nothing we can do about them...but we can take care of ourselves and protect our children as much as we can from the fall out.

[tadpole1025]

Generally the MLCer will select one child out of the family to become close to. It is usually the child that will not question or challenge them about what they are doing.

Wow!

That is so true. I've seen the exact same thing happen in my sitch. My XW has pretty much shut off from all of our sons EXCEPT ONE. Why? Because even though he has given her a rough time about all of this, he has questioned her the least. Job is spot on.

Be there for your kids. You have to be both parents. That's really all that you can do.

Take care.

Tad

[kml]

Maybe I have missed something in my year of lurking here, but how would it be possible for any child to not be deeply affected by the MLC of his father?

I did not mean to suggest that your son should be unaffected by this. However, the SEVERITY of his response, usually does not occur when it is just a matter of the father being absent and the parents having discussions about the affair behind closed doors. So this is what makes me concerned that either your H is being actively abusive to your son, or abusive to you in front of the children (is this where he has learned to use such foul language with you?), or he is overhearing way too much detail about your marital problems.

The children should not overhear you speaking to others about the marriage, nor should they hear H calling you names or otherwise abusing you. You cannot control H so if his behavior is harming the children you need to leave or get him to leave.

I'm just trying to emphasize that your son's reaction is extreme, even compared to most here, and I am trying to figure out which of these factors may be contributing?

[Gerda]

Generally the MLCer will select one child out of the family to become close to. It is usually the child that will not question or challenge them about what they are doing.

Wow!

That is so true. I've seen the exact same thing happen in my sitch. My XW has pretty much shut off from all of our sons EXCEPT ONE. Why? Because even though he has given her a rough time about all of this, he has questioned her the least. Job is spot on.

Be there for your kids. You have to be both parents. That's really all that you can do.

Take care.

Tad

Isn't it amazing how comforting it is to read that someone else is going through the same thing? And that even though your sons are so much older! It's a comfort to know that this insanity is "normal" for the insanity.

Tonight you and your wife are in my prayers.

[Gerda]

Maybe I have missed something in my year of lurking here, but how would it be possible for any child to not be deeply affected by the MLC of his father?

I did not mean to suggest that your son should be unaffected by this. However, the SEVERITY of his response, usually does not occur when it is just a matter of the father being absent and the parents having discussions about the affair behind closed doors. So this is what makes me concerned that either your H is being actively abusive to your son, or abusive to you in front of the children (is this where he has learned to use such foul language with you?), or he is overhearing way too much detail about your marital problems.

The children should not overhear you speaking to others about the marriage, nor should they hear H calling you names or otherwise abusing you. You cannot control H so if his behavior is harming the children you need to leave or get him to leave.

I'm just trying to emphasize that your son's reaction is extreme, even compared to most here, and I am trying to figure out which of these factors may be contributing?

I really do appreciate your thoughts but we have a very different view of what is possible and what should be done in this situation. There are tiny opportunities everyday for light to shine in this darkness, and I am very thankful that my husband has not left us and that my kids are able to see me enact the meaning of my vows and find even very small ways to still be a family even in this horrible year.

[Gerda]

Gerda,
Generally the MLCer will select one child out of the family to become close to. It is usually the child that will not question or challenge them about what they are doing. Also, the child that is "cast aside" may remind them of themselves when they were that age. It's difficult when children are treated this way and that's why it's very important that the LBS spend as much time w/the children, validate their feelings and reassure them that they are there for them. What your h is doing is reliving his past and yes, they do tend to act out like many of the people who hurt them, be it physical, emotional or mentally.

Eventually, when the MLCer begins to reconnect, he/she will begin to connect in the opposite order of the disconnection. Until that time, you will have to be "both" parents to your children. You have every right to be upset and concerned about your son. His world has been rocked. Continue to seek help for him. Get him involved in activities that will help him release that pent up anger and frustration.

Whatever you do, do not try to force your h to be there for your son. The more you push, the harder he will run in the opposite direction and yes, he'll resent not only you, but your son for trying to pull them together. MLC has to run it's natural course and unfortunately, there is nothing we can do about them...but we can take care of ourselves and protect our children as much as we can from the fall out.

I can't tell you how helpful your notes are to me, Job. I read this last week and daily find myself remembering what you said about not pushing and just focusing on protecting my kids. Your words really have helped me retrieve my patience and my ability to accept what is happening as reality, and to work with what I have -- and even to be thankful that I have something to work with! Thank you!

[Wet]

Hi Gerda, you appear to me as a wonderful, Spirit-filled woman going through a really tough battle. It is encouraging to hear that you are praying for me and my W. Have you visited the 'Prayer Circle' in the Infidelity section of the Board? I would be interested to hear what your regular prayers are for your sitch. Thanks.

[MrBond]

Have you ever read the DB or DR books?

[Wet]

Hi Gerda, are you doing alright?

[job]

Bumping this up for Gerda.

[job]

Gerda posted on the Detachment Thread this morning:

I am struggling with this a lot this week, so I was glad to see this post. But while I understand this in theory, I have so much trouble figuring out how to do it at times.

My H lives with us, but abandoned the family as far as being a real husband/father in December 2013. I am deeply religious and totally devoted to standing for the marriage and developiing my relationship with and reliance on God alone.

I had to go through a mastectomy this fall, basically alone and with almost no help with kids. And now --- You know how they love to rewrite history and blame you for everything? Well his new tagline is about how I have never respected the life of the mind. I don't know if there is still an OW, but his dissertation is an OW of sorts, ALL he does, literally, is work on that and train for marathons. He barely looks up from his book, is furious if interrupted, and if he eats at the same time, he reads a book. I admit that my pride is struggling with not answering. I will paste an e-mail he sent me below -- but e-mail is easy to ignore. It's when he says these things in person, when I am cooking or cleaning or just in the house, and I have so much trouble not saying, "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!!" and providing a litany of how I have completely surrendered any expectation of his upholding any vow or participating in any way in family life for 15 months now, plus the year or two before bomb drop when things started sliding south (and to be fair, before I transformed myself).

I would love advice in the form of what exactly to say or do in those moments. I keep praying about it but then in the moment I get confused, I answer him, or don't know if I can just be totally silent if I can't leave the house (because of the kids, he doesn't watch them ever).

Here's the e-mail. And keep in mind that he has not spent time with his kids really since bomb drop in December 2013. He is here in the evenings but very out of it and rageful. They, especially my son, are very traumatized but we are making it day by day. Also, just an FYI in the world of MLC flip-flopping, he sent this about going to our cabin and demanded our weekend renters leave earlier than the usual check-out but then announced he wouldn't be going the day he was to leave, because it was going to be too cold though this is the warmest week we've had in months.

Is the cabin still open from Sunday morning till Thursday morning? I would go up early Sunday and leave the cabin 5am Thursday. My spirits can only but be unsettled and snappy with this doctorate undone, and always always some interruptions happen at Jones (that's our house). Not blaming you, but the ethos of that house is such that the dual offices of being a world-changing intellectual and a domestic parent are totally and mutually incompatible. This does not have to be the case. And yet it is and always has been, as it was in my parent's house growing up: the life of the mind is second fiddle. I want my kids to believe otherwise. A
parent can be great who is not doing parenty things. I refuse narrow definitions of what a parent is. [D] called me a real dad the other day because I drove her to school. All other dads are not real. Sad. Let me know about the cabin.


Edited by Gerda (Today at 09:07 AM)

[job]

Gerda,
I do understand how you feel and the fact that he is still acting in a "rageful" manner is not healthy for you or your children.

Detaching is for YOU and it takes a while to get the hang of it so that you aren't reacting to every comment, action or behavior of his. Also, there isn't a "one size fits all" response to everything that they say or do. As you move along on this journey, you'll begin to learn more of what works for you in the way of detaching and dealing w/the behaviors.

As I stated in my posting to you on the Detachment thread, when he's not happy about something, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and walk away, i.e., no discussions or apologies unless it's something that you think requires an apology. Can you provide us w/some examples of things he's said and we can help you w/some generic responses?

About those rages, if he's raging at you or the children, you need to call him on it. You could address him as "h, whatever the problem is, I will be happy to discuss it with you when you calm down." Then walk away. You and your children do not need to be subjected to this behavior.

This is the strangest email that I have ever read. He's writing it as if he's communicating w/someone other than you. Does he always communicate w/you this way? It's very telling in the fact that he grew up being the second fiddle and he doesn't want that for his children. What was his home life like? Did they not parent or did they just focus on their jobs? He certainly has stated that he can't do both, i.e., work and be a parent. Apparently in his mind it's all black and white and it has to be one or the other.

How to address this email? Just tell him whether the cabin is available and let the rest of this email go. I honestly don't think he's looking for any other response but a yes or no.

Please, please take care of yourself and your children. I know it's difficult w/him there, but I do hope you'll encourage him to go to the cabin and maybe he'll stay there for a while. You and your children need a break.

[kml]

Not blaming you, but the ethos of that house is such that the dual offices of being a world-changing intellectual and a domestic parent are totally and mutually incompatible.

Oh PUH-LEEZE!!!! He's a "world-changing intellectual" and therefore, cannot be expected to perform any of the duties of a husband and parent????

Be honest, now, Gerda - has he ALWAYS been such a PUTZ? Or is this all just since his affair? Is the OW perhaps another academic?

And you mentioned that you are not financially dependent on him, but quite the opposite - does this mean you are supporting him while he finishes his dissertation?

Something is very not-right about him, beyond even the ordinary madness of the WAS. If you had to pick one, would it be:
- drug or alcohol abuse?
- bipolar disorder? ("world-changing intellectual" sounds manic to me)
- sociopathy or narcissism? (Before you say no, please read The Sociopath Next Door - great book).
- Asperger's syndrome?

Is he taking a long time to finish his dissertation? Is it any good?

My ex had some definite narcissistic tendencies, although I couldn't see it clearly while I was married to him. Still, one of my fears when I WAS married to him, was that if anything untoward happened to me, like breast cancer, that I couldn't count on him to be there for me. Sounds like you, unfortunately, experienced what I had always feared with my ex. (My new man, btw, is the exact opposite in that regard - I'm pretty sure if I or any member of my family was sick, he'd be right there holding my hair while I puked.)

[Gerda]

I posted this on my other note and realized that I should put it here since Job so kindly brought my post back up. And now I see that folks had posted here during the time that I had stopped visiting the site. Thank you all so much!

Originally Posted By: job
Gerda,
In fact, someone has asked about you recently.


Job, I read your earlier posts to me over and over. (I also read the Book of Job all the time.) Reading that you wrote back and took all this time to get my post seen made me start to cry. And then to read that someone asked about me really made me cry. (Can you tell me who?) I guess it's hard to go this alone and so so nice to feel that there is someone out there who cares about me. THANK YOU.

I stopped posting for a while because I already sleep so little that I felt it was actually not good for me to spend time on this. But this last week or two I am desperately lonely.

Yes, I had a mastectomy in the fall. I think I mentioned that in my other thread but probably it was buried in there. I had a dream in which a voice came to me and told me where to find the lump, and I woke and felt it, and then I didn't even have to have chemo and have been able to mother my kids with almost no break from that cancer experience, so I feel so blessed in that too and don't talk about it in the way I would have thought I would have talked about having cancer. This year I had to face my three biggest fears (losing my husband's love, him having an affair, and cancer (not to mention the MRI!), and I have faced them all with God's help and love.

Can I just be silly and ask this in detail -- So if he is ranting about how badly I run the house or some other flaw or blaming me for something, I just no matter what say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." It seems that most of my responses cause him to rant that I think I am so saintly and so perfect, etc, almost taunting me, and unraveling my resolve to be kind. It seems that the only thing I can do is be silent and even avoid his eyes most of the time, but this violates all I try to do through the Rejoice Ministries/Christian approach. I think I am always confused because I want to enact Christ, loving my enemy and giving kindness back for evil, but it seems that any response to an MLCer causes more spew. And I often descend into the pit of wondering about OW or what he is or isn't doing, etc., and this makes me very short-tempered and resentful unless I remove myself totally by running down to church for a while. (It's one block away, very helpful!) I pray about this a lot and always the answer I receive is about patience and waiting and taking all my sorrows to God, but in the moment of encountering the problems at home I am always confused about what to say or do. I feel like nothing "works," and it's just a matter of bearing it and trying to minimize the contact.

Thank you for your love and kindness. Thank you so much.

[Gerda]

Hi Gerda, you appear to me as a wonderful, Spirit-filled woman going through a really tough battle. It is encouraging to hear that you are praying for me and my W. Have you visited the 'Prayer Circle' in the Infidelity section of the Board? I would be interested to hear what your regular prayers are for your sitch. Thanks.

I did not know about the prayer circle and will check it out! I am working so many jobs right now and have in effect sole responsibility for my kids, the (failing) business I share with my husband and all the extra jobs I work to try to actually make money while I keep the failing business afloat in hopes of selling it! So I sort of decided I should not post here or spend time reading posts, I should just use that extra time for prayer. But I got lonely and confused the last couple weeks, so here I am!

I am very touched by the words you wrote about me. I actually believe in miracles because of what has happened to me since this all started. Some day I will write my whole story; I came to Christ from Judaism because of this crisis and because of these miracles calling me. I think my story could help change hearts.

And actually if you can believe it, I really have been praying for you and your wife. I have to go to church at least once a day to keep it together, the church is always open here, it is a very beautiful old Catholic Church in NYC with a million beautiful paintings and glorious old windows, and I pray for various couples everyday, and you are one of them. So you can picture that someone is praying for you and your wife in that beautiful place!

[Gerda]

Have you ever read the DB or DR books?

Oh my goodness, I must appear really lost if you are asking that!!! I have read the books and even had the phone counseling until I couldn't afford it anymore! I just confused sometimes, and it gets weary once you realize that this MLC thing is real, and it's not going to end any time soon. I read somewhere that we all think our situation will be different and faster, and slowly realize it won't. That's where I am.

[Gerda]

Gerda,
I do understand how you feel and the fact that he is still acting in a "rageful" manner is not healthy for you or your children.

Thank you again, Job, for all your help and wise words. I feel narcissistic to answer all your questions as if everyone wants to read about this! But --

Is my situation so different? Isn't everyone whose spouse is in replay facing that kind of spewing? I think maybe it just seems more intense because my prodigal lives with us, there is no way to have less contact except that he is mostly not around. But he is here every night and has been since bomb drop even when he was having an EA (I don't know if they ever met in person but they talked on phone and e-mail constantly and I know he called her, "my secret other wife" because i unfortunately saw this on his phone before I vowed no snooping). He does peer out of the fog once in a while and is kind to my daughter mostly and very affectionate with her. (Someone posted her about how they choose the least judgmental child for that, and that's it on the nose, she is an angel.) Yesterday after being mean to my son he apologized and told him he'd always be there for him even though he had to live by "certain principles."

As I stated in my posting to you on the Detachment thread, when he's not happy about something, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and walk away, i.e., no discussions or apologies unless it's something that you think requires an apology. Can you provide us w/some examples of things he's said and we can help you w/some generic responses?

About those rages, if he's raging at you or the children, you need to call him on it. You could address him as "h, whatever the problem is, I will be happy to discuss it with you when you calm down." Then walk away. You and your children do not need to be subjected to this behavior.

I know these things might sound obvious to you, but what you wrote above is really helpful to me. I read it earlier and tried it not only with my husband but my son and was surprised at how well it worked to keep ME detached, let alone what effect it had on either of them. (Things are a lot better with my son, by the way. Still some rages but much better and a lot of love between us.)

I included that e-mail because that's the kind of thing he says. I'm almost ashamed to post it here. Yesterday when we had a disagreement with my son at dinner because my son was refusing to wear a shirt, I told my son he could eat on the stairs after my husband said he couldn't eat at all. My H got really mad, in a weird way he had been trying to support my telling my son to put on a shirt, I guess, but his response was so rageful and so unreasonable considering that he never eats with us and never parents the children at all, but just once in a while picks one thing like that, and my son is suffering so much already, I wasn't going to deny him dinner because of a shirt! Anyway, after I allowed my son to leave the room and eat on the stairs, my husband started with the spewing, and said that if I would back down for something like that, "You deserve to be walked on." I took the bait, albeit it quietly and with a kind voice. I said, "How can you speak to your wife like that in front of your children? How can you justify yourself?" And then I said that I felt sorry for him because he could only be in so much pain where he was, and that he was living the Fall. Yeah, i did it all wrong. Then I remembered I wasn't supposed to do that so I left the table and put on my shoes and ran to church and cried my heart out and prayed and came back with a better sense of detachment and took my kids out for ice cream!

This is the strangest email that I have ever read. He's writing it as if he's communicating w/someone other than you. Does he always communicate w/you this way? It's very telling in the fact that he grew up being the second fiddle and he doesn't want that for his children. What was his home life like? Did they not parent or did they just focus on their jobs? He certainly has stated that he can't do both, i.e., work and be a parent. Apparently in his mind it's all black and white and it has to be one or the other.

Yes, I get e-mails like that often. He talks like that now. He is an academic. He was working on his dissertation for many years and couldn't finish. Then when the MLC hit, he changed his topic from a 16th Century Catholic poet to a modern poet who "walks the razor's edge to find God," his way to justify all his bad behavior, I guess. He left the church but says that he can't go inside a church because he can't face Christ. He seems sort of proud about my conversion even though he hates God right now.

My husband grew up in an extremely abusive household. His father is sort of a monster. My husband ran away many times, sometimes even slept in the park. He was always lonely, always neglected. His mother loved him but ultimately betrayed him by never protecting him from his father. She has mostly disappeared from our lives during this -- she used to come to us a few times a year to help me with the kids, now nothing at all, she came for my surgery but nothing else. She doesn't like to talk to me about it because I upset her too much, and she sometimes says things like, "Well, it is really difficult to live with the way you run that house," or "Why do you have to make everything into such a drama?" I have tried to tell her about MLC but she refuses to hear anything about it. Once she told me that my H's father always said " he was rotten to the core" -- this was her attempt to be supportive! It made me feel so bad for him and understand how deep is his pain.

One reason I stopped posting here is because some of the posts get very cynical and harsh and I ended up feeling like I was betraying him somehow by inviting people to call him names or be sarcastic about him. He was such a wonderful good man before this. He was an amazing father. He also loved God. I'm not saying he was perfect, but I needed a huge transformation myself, I am very ashamed of the kind of wife I was before I changed as a result of this crisis. No one believes in him anymore, not even his parents. I want to keep believing in the man I know is locked in there somewhere. I feel like I can see him wrestling with the darkness every time I look at him.

Oh my goodness, i am embarrassed that I wrote so much! Oh well....

[Gerda]

I do appreciate your taking the time to read my posts and write back.

My husband was an amazing man before. It seems from your post though that you are coming from another forum and don't know that much about MLC. He is following the MLC script to the letter. This is a comfort to me, actually, all the insanity seems to be part of a regular pattern that runs a certain predictably unpredictable course. He is completely transformed into the opposite of who he was before. From what I have read, he needs to go through this tunnel alone and I have to choose to stick around or not while he does.

[kml]

"His mother loved him but ultimately betrayed him by not protecting him from his father"

Do you see how you might be making this same mistake with your son, not protecting him from the verbal abuse of your husband?

What you have described here seems beyond the ordinary irritability and selfishness of the average MLCer. He's verbally abusive, to you and your son, and he has grandiose thinking (he's going to change the world with his intellect? Really? A guy who couldn't finish his dissertation, in a field that will not likely contribute to the finances of the family?)

Now, if he really was an amazing husband and father in the past, I would be seriously concerned about the possibilty of a medical issue, bipolar disorder, brain tumor or drug addiction. I've seen tons of crazy MLC behavior here, but this is different....something more is going on here. Either he was always kind of abusive and just got worse in MLC and you are in denial about it, or he has a physiologic reason for his new onset mental instability.

He just told you that he doesn't respect you, in his comments about your son and the shirt business. You need to start standing up for yourself and your kids. You don't have to get into it with him over everything, but be careful you aren't just being a doormat either. He won't respect you for letting him abuse you.

[beatrice]

Gerda, my xh was a very distinguished academic, with many books and articles to his name. Prior to MLC he was a kind loyal and supportive husband and we had many happy years together. I have also gone through mastectomy and reconstruction on my own, and I share your faith (although I don't think I am as good a Christian as you).

From where I am sitting your xh seems mentally ill beyond MLC script. Mine left me, had affairs and was very very abusive to me. Had he stayed around I would have asked him to leave for his sake and mine. I am not sure it is OK to support someone who is behaving like this.

Please do not construe this as harsh or critical. I admire those who take the high road, but this could take many many years. Would you take a few minutes to reconsider if you might be enabling him rather than helping through a hard time?

[job]

Gerda,
Why are you ashamed to post what is going on? You need an outlet because right now, it sounds like you have no one to talk to about the situation. So, please don't be afraid or ashamed to post here. We ALL have had spouses that have gone off the rails into crisis and each and every one of them is similar and yet, different.

Spewing is part of the crisis. They are operating on pure emotion and they can't hold that temper in. However, you are the one that described him as being "rageful". BTW, spewing is throughout the crisis and not just in replay. Your h has selected one of the children to be a "pal" with. This is very typical. Your son may remind him of himself or tends to challenge him or makes him question himself about what he's doing.

They tend to go back to a time in their young lives whereby they were emotionally stunted. Your h could be reliving his childhood by acting out like his father did w/him. As adults, they tend to talk about not wanting to be like their parents and yet, when the crisis hits, they follow the same paths that one of the parents did...generally they one that may have not been there for them. He's angry that his mother didn't speak up to his father when he was a child, i.e., the projecting on to you about the backing down and deserving to be walked on.

Gerda, what you said was okay. You are not always going to think of the proper things to say to him because he's still an angry man at this time. You did the right thing by walking away. BTW, what he said about not going into church...that's a very typical statement of someone in crisis. They've lost their way and thing that God has turned on them as well. They aren't happy people and are very disillusioned about life in general.

His crisis may take many years or him to resolve, or he may remain stuck, i.e., an angry and bitter man. I realize it's still very early on for you, but have you given any thought as to what you can do to make your life a bit better while he's there? You need to have some outlets and places to go to get away from this spewing and behavior. You may not realize it, but it's affecting your health and the health of your children.

There will come a time when you will realize that you've had enough and that's when you will decide to do something about your situation. Until that time, please continue to post here. Take away from the advice that is given what will help you and leave the rest behind.

Please take care of yourself and your children.

[Gerda]

Thank you so much for this thoughtful reply, as ever.

I think I will back off from this forum again though, because every time I post there are so many replies telling me that I am a doormat or delusional and telling me to get a divorce, etc. I hear plenty of that from the people around me. Often the replies even seem to echo what I hear from my H, that our whole marriage was always bad and I should "face reality." I only go on here hoping to get support for my stand, and techniques for getting through it. So I end up getting more upset reading most of the replies, and they make me feel hopeless. Most of the time I am very strong and hopeful, but I go on here in moments of weakness. I am sure even writing this here will illicit more of the same.

I don't know what to think about what people are saying that there is something more wrong with him than MLC. I feel like everything I read on these forums is exactly the same as my situation, just that he lives with us so it's constant.

As a child of divorce, I also know that splitting up is just another sort of misery. It doesn't fix anything, it just gives you more time without the one problem during your day. And as a very devout Christian, I do not believe in divorce or remarriage, so what I am trying to do is figure out ways to live through suffering with grace, and yes, to make my life with my kids as happy as I can.

Job, your posts are always helpful to me and maybe sometime when I am feeling very low, I will send you a pm instead.

[Gerda]

I don't agree with you but I appreciate your kind words about my faith. And I am so sorry to know that you went through the same thing with cancer. But it surely puts things in perspective!

I find that following Christ's demands of us to the letter makes life, for the most part, very clear. In the world, it's hard to remember at times, but I find that the answer to every question I have is there in Christ. That's what made me become a Christian, in fact.

[Gerda]

Rest assured, I am very careful to stand up for my kids, for them to know I do and for my H to see that I do. In moments when I say too much, I even say all the things you are saying about him becoming his dad and about the fact that I won't be like his mother, that I will not let him do that to our kids.

I still love the man that he was, and I still believe in him. And when I falter, I trust God to restore that love when the time is right. My vow was not til he became a jerk. It was til death parted us. I am now working on building a life of my own, but my hope is always for restoration of our family.

I think even if someone writes ten pages of words here, there is no way to present the fabric of our entire lives, and so that's why it's not the best idea to make sweeping psychological pronouncements on each other's actions. But I know you have the best intentions and I really appreciate that.

[Wet]

Hi Gerda, I am sorry to see you go. I respect the stand that you are taking for your marriage, and honoring your marriage vows. I understand the love you have for the man your husband was, and the trust that God is working in both of your lives now.

God bless you on your journey.

[job]

Gerda,
Please do not back away from the forum. People are only responding to what you are posting. It's true, we do not know your h as he was per-crisis...but all we can go on is the way that you have described his behavior. You need someone to talk to about this situation and we are here for you, no matter what the outcome is or will be.

It is very difficult living w/someone in crisis and yes, each one is different. I found your h's email odd because of the way he wrote it, but it was very telling of what he witnessed many years ago and now, he's gone back to that time and has to work through what transpired back then and realize that he wasn't the problem or the "bad seed", but a child trying to grow up in a world that maybe was very strict. He's got to grow up and hopefully when he does, he'll be a more mature and loving man...but we don't know what the future holds for him or for any of us. All we can do is hope and pray that he finds his way back to the real world.

God is there to support you, but God also wants you to take care of yourself and your children. He will be there to guide you, but he also wants you to do the necessary work to heal yourself. He's got your h in his hands and he will do what is necessary to heal him, but it's going to be on his time schedule and the seas may become very rough for your h along the way.

Gerda, I hate to tell you this, but you can't pm folks on this board. The pm function doesn't work, so the only way to reach me in thru the forum. I will continue to watch for your postings...but do think about sticking around. Each and every person that posts here has or is walking the path right now and yes, there are times when things are posted that we do not want to hear at this time, but later down the road, those exact postings will be what you will need to help you become stronger and even more independent.

Take care of yourself.

[beatrice]

Gerda - I will be sorry to see you go. I am not an advocate of divorce, and have remained single post divorce - The divorce was what my husband wanted.

It is hard to stand up for what you think is right: however over the years I have been dealing with MLC (nearly ten in my case) your your husband's behaviour seems very extreme.

I have been challenged here too - but honestly, with rare exceptions the challenges moved me forward in my own journey, and helped me to see things more clearly.

Verbal abuse is very scarring for children to witness, as well as receive.

I do not write to impose my views but to provide another perspective

[kml]

I think I will back off from this forum again though, because every time I post there are so many replies telling me that I am a doormat or delusional and telling me to get a divorce, etc. I hear plenty of that from the people around me. Often the replies even seem to echo what I hear from my H, that our whole marriage was always bad and I should "face reality."

Gerda- I am NOT telling you to divorce him, but I AM telling you there may be something seriously wrong with him. Why would you not want to help him if the problem is actually drug addiction or bipolar disorder or a brain tumor? Why are you so unwilling to even look at or answer questions about this? And protecting your children from the harmful effects of his abusive behavior does not mean abandoning him or the marriage, but it may mean setting boundaries that might include your H leaving the house for a while if he can't behave. Being faithful to your marriage does NOT mean you have to tolerate abuse; in fact, it may be to your husband's benefit in the long run if you stop allowing him to treat you and your son this way.

Believe it or not, your husband is actually MORE likely to return to the marriage (and return as a better man) if you DON'T put up with his bad behavior. (And I'm not suggesting you do this in a negative way by accusing him of being like his father, you can do this in a firm but loving way, having healthy boundaries, just like you would with your child.)

As for your husband saying the marriage was always bad - that's just normal MLC nonsense, don't pay a moment's attention. You did not imagine your good years. They have to make up something to justify their behavior. Still, the one thing you CAN control at the present is you, and it's a good time to work on any improvements that you know you need to make.

I also recommend a very good Al Anon book called The Courage to Change. A friend gave it to me when I was going through my marital difficulties, and even though neither my husband nor I had any alcohol problems, the book was surprisingly helpful.

God is there to support you, but God also wants you to take care of yourself and your children. He will be there to guide you, but he also wants you to do the necessary work to heal yourself. He's got your h in his hands and he will do what is necessary to heal him, but it's going to be on his time schedule and the seas may become very rough for your h along the way.

Job is so right here.

And please read carefully what people are saying to you, as you seem prone to misinterpret; my comment was that EITHER there is something seriously wrong with your H, OR he always had an abusive streak that you didn't see and that is now worse with MLC. If he truly was a wonderful spouse prior to his MLC, then I stand by my (experienced) medical opinion that there may be something beyond ordinary MLC going on with him. Does he show other signs of mania (staying up all night, impulsivity and rash decisions, grandiose ideas)? Does he have a family history of bipolar disorder, alcoholism, Huntington's disease, or any other neurodegenerative diseases? Does he drink or use drugs? Has he been put on any prescription medications that can cause behavior changes (antidepressants, Parkinson's drugs, etc?). Does he have a history of concussion or brain injury? Autoimmune disorders or hormone imbalances like thyroid disease? Exposure to toxins like heavy metals?

My ex had multiple concussions and probably a very mild lifelong form of bipolar disorder (which I myself did not recognize until it was too late). I did everything possible to save my marriage (and we reconciled for several very good years until his last MLC). He is in denial about his medical conditions and I feel badly that I was unable to help him, as I now see signs of subtle deterioration. (Thankfully he is married now to a nice young woman who I hope will care for him as he ages).

You can be a lighthouse for your husband, a beacon of hope and love and rationality, while still enforcing healthy boundaries and not allowing him to abuse you or the kids. Just as you can be an excellent loving mother while still making your children eat their vegetables and go to school.

[job]

Gerda,
How are you doing today? I left a response on the Detachment thread in response to your other posting.

Please let us know that you are okay.